Adolin's Actions

[Moogle]

BloodFalcon recently posted in another thread:

I find myself strangely supportive of him killing Sadeas. It's not a topic that needs to be discussed, but unlike Kaladin just disliking Elhokar, Adolin knows Sadeas to be a murderer. It's not unheard of to bring death to murderers..... sometimes called justice, even..... I don't know.

 

He didn't want to discuss it in that thread, but I'm curious suddenly.

 

Does anyone here not support Adolin's killing of Sadeas? Why?

Edited April 28, 2014 by Moogle

[synobal he/him]

Sadeas was a rat, but killing him didn't seem in character for Adolin, he was always about duels and challenges etc.So ya I'm not supportive of it. Sadeas needed to die, but if it was going to be him being knifed in a hall by someone it shouldn't of been Adolin. If Adolin was going to kill him it should of been in a fight either a duel (unlikely) or in battle. 

 

The imagery of his white horse being killed was foreshadowing I think. Adolin has started on a dark path, or at least a grey one. Do I think he is going to become a villain? probably not, but I think he is going to be confused, maybe more so than Moash was at the end of the book. 

[Shardlight he/him]

BloodFalcon recently posted in another thread:

 

He didn't want to discuss it in that thread, but I'm curious suddenly.

 

Does anyone here not support Adolin's killing of Sadeas? Why?

 

I was happy to see Sadeas dead. I'm not sure how I feel about Adolin doing it though. Right away, when I first read it, I though to myself, that is not going to end well. I can't believe Dalinar will be happy when he finds out Adolin did it. This might alienate Adolin from the rest of the family. I was just beginning to like him more.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Shardlight

[Cayden]

I have one problem with it, and only one. He covered up his involvement in it, that gives an opening for a certain nasty Shard to potentially play on. But its still too early to tell, if he comes clean to the people who matter it might not be a problem, but it seems the sort of thing which could fester and become a problem if he does not act like it was a Just action.

 

By hiding from his actions he is basically saying it was wrong for him to do it.

[name_here]

Well, it absolutely was murder. That said, Sadeas needed to be stopped and legal methods of removing him from power had been pretty thoroughly attempted and exhausted.

[vladmech]

I really don't have much of any issue with Adolin killing Sadeas; by the end of the book it was painfully clear to Adolin that nothing was going to change. Even with everything Dalinar had said/seen coming true, Sadeas was still going to try and mess it up for everyone. At that point it's essentially putting down a mad dog for the betterment of the entire race.

 

Is it going to come back and haunt Adolin? Yeah probably, but as long as the next book isn't all stupid love triangle I'm betting he'll pull through it.

[shinintendo]

Also I don't think Sadeas wife will let it go unpunished, she has spies to make mess of things. maybe even Sadeas army being controlled by someone worse.

[Aleksiel]

Sadeas was trouble and I think if Jasnah was there, she would have had him assassinated. There was no way for peace between Sadeas and Dalinar, so Adolin did what should have been done. Sadeas would have only been a hindrance and they couldn't deal with him on top of the Desolation. His death was no surprise to me, but I didn't expect Adolin to be the one who killed him. At least he was smart enough to cover his tracks. Adolin wanted to fight Sadeas for a long time and Sadeas escaped all challenges. He didn't want a duel, so he got a blade to his eye socket instead; served him just right.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Spark she/her]

In the end, "I wanted to save the world" is always a good argument. Then again, that's what's everyone in SA seems to be up to these days.

 

I didn't see it coming, I wasn't waiting for it. But when Sadeas gave his little speach, my first reaction was: "I do NOT want to hear that record again in the next book." Turns out: I won't have to. So yeah, as it's been said before: Him being dead is fine. But murder is murder, and I'd be more than surprised if Adolin got away with it.

[deddinty]

I think it's necessary for Adolin to fall so he can be reforged. I think he has a long way to go until then though, and this was just the beginning. In the end I bet he'll end up a radiant, but not for a long time.

What I'm more worried about is what will happen because of Sadeas' death. We've never heard about an heir, and if one does not exist, Amaram may be the highest ranking person to take the princedom. He could even try ans seize it, rather than working under Elokhar. Beyond that, the one who was there at his confession is dead, high prince Roion. I think we'll see a good deal of repercussions from this, and not just the effect on Adolin himself.

[Andrew C]

I think it's necessary for Adolin to fall so he can be reforged. I think he has a long way to go until then though, and this was just the beginning. In the end I bet he'll end up a radiant, but not for a long time.

What I'm more worried about is what will happen because of Sadeas' death. We've never heard about an heir, and if one does not exist, Amaram may be the highest ranking person to take the princedom. He could even try ans seize it, rather than working under Elokhar. Beyond that, the one who was there at his confession is dead, high prince Roion. I think we'll see a good deal of repercussions from this, and not just the effect on Adolin himself.

 

Ialai may take over. To damnation with traditions.

[writelhd she/her]

I'm not sure Adolin did cover his tracks very well at this point.  He wasn't planning this--he didn't know Sadeas would be there, so he didn't  have time to plan any sort of cover-up.  He did, however, definitely have a short moment to think about what he was doing and decide to do it--"I'm not like my father" he paused to say, and then he killed. It wasn't pre-mediated, but it wasn't completely heat-of-the-moment either.   He also chose to try to hide what he'd done...but I doubt he had time to fully think through how to cover up his involvement. 

 

I'm not sure what I think.  It isn't the Adolin that I thought I knew--and yet it sort of is, too.  We've got plenty of murderers in our cast.  Shallan.  Jasnah, most likely, if the hints that she's dealt with assassins for more than just watching are true.  Dalinar, from his early days, certainly.  Why does Adolin joining their ranks feel worse, (at least to me)? Because he hides?  Because he doesn't (yet) show remorse?

[Spark she/her]

Your standpoint on this will in the end determine your KR order. Just saying. ; )

[synobal he/him]

I'm not sure Adolin did cover his tracks very well at this point.  He wasn't planning this--he didn't know Sadeas would be there, so he didn't  have time to plan any sort of cover-up.  He did, however, definitely have a short moment to think about what he was doing and decide to do it--"I'm not like my father" he paused to say, and then he killed. It wasn't pre-mediated, but it wasn't completely heat-of-the-moment either.   He also chose to try to hide what he'd done...but I doubt he had time to fully think through how to cover up his involvement. 

 

I'm not sure what I think.  It isn't the Adolin that I thought I knew--and yet it sort of is, too.  We've got plenty of murderers in our cast.  Shallan.  Jasnah, most likely, if the hints that she's dealt with assassins for more than just watching are true.  Dalinar, from his early days, certainly.  Why does Adolin joining their ranks feel worse, (at least to me)? Because he hides?  Because he doesn't (yet) show remorse?

 

Because it was out of character, he was always about battles and duels and challenging. Knifing a guy in a dark alley, that is not Adolin. 

[kaos he/him]

I'm not sure Adolin did cover his tracks very well at this point. He wasn't planning this--he didn't know Sadeas would be there, so he didn't have time to plan any sort of cover-up. He did, however, definitely have a short moment to think about what he was doing and decide to do it--"I'm not like my father" he paused to say, and then he killed. It wasn't pre-mediated, but it wasn't completely heat-of-the-moment either. He also chose to try to hide what he'd done...but I doubt he had time to fully think through how to cover up his involvement.

I think he did (cover it it well). There is evidence of course (his cuffs, the shardblade if anybody finds it) but it's all circumstantial. Nothing concrete places him at the scene of the crime. Unfortunately he had motive, and this will come off as an assassination by somebody, with heavy suspicion falling on the Kholins. It is sort of a locked room mystery (only someone in Urithiru could have killed him and they likely have an accounting of everyone there, though depending on the traffic and when the body is going to be discovered there could be some confusion in that issue.). Of course given how Alethi act about assasination even if it is proved it came from the Kholin camp no one will call them on it publicly. It will erode Dalinars position of honor though. Actually it will probably do that anyway based on suspicion alone.

And it isn't out of character. He has hated Sadeas since the beginning. He is a soldier, already used to killing. It's not like he is going to feel guilty about it. Maybe about the circumstances, but not the murder itself. He knifed a dude in a dark alley, but it isn't that different from swinging a Shardblade through a bunch of Parshendi. Hell, it's actually a lot fairer. Sadeas had a chance to fight back.

Edited March 12, 2014 by kaos

[Seloun]

BloodFalcon recently posted in another thread:

 

He didn't want to discuss it in that thread, but I'm curious suddenly.

 

Does anyone here not support Adolin's killing of Sadeas? Why?

 

From a moral standpoint, I don't. From a plot perspective, it was great.

 

Basically, I can't imagine Kaladin choosing to do the same thing or being okay with it. He makes a big speech about not killing people in the shadows and not killing at all if he can help it. Adolin's actions are in exact contravention. Kaladin seems to be the best example of the 'correct' morality of this series (I don't intend to debate RL morality).

 

i.e. Kaladin disapproves (-5).

[The Silver Queen]

From a moral standpoint, I don't. From a plot perspective, it was great.

 

Basically, I can't imagine Kaladin choosing to do the same thing or being okay with it. He makes a big speech about not killing people in the shadows and not killing at all if he can help it. Adolin's actions are in exact contravention. Kaladin seems to be the best example of the 'correct' morality of this series (I don't intend to debate RL morality).

 

i.e. Kaladin disapproves (-5).

 

I think Kaladin, pre-third ideal, would have murdered Amaram the same way if given the chance. The difference is Adolin doesn't have Syl to guide him like Kal does.

 

He'd decided to be storming happy about Amaram's arrival. After all, it meant that Kaladin would be able to find a chance to finally stick a spear in that man.

No, he thought, entering the training grounds, not a spear. A knife. I want to be up close to him, face-to-face, so I can watch him panic as he dies. I want to feel that knife going in.

 

 

 

Kaladin basically wanted to kill Amaram the way Adolin killed Sadeas.

 

...

[PudgyNinja]

I don't support it.  It goes against everything that Dalinar is trying to do with the Alethi.  

 

Did Sadeas deserve it?  Sure.  Should Adolin have done it?  Absolutely not.  

[Guest Shash]

Adolin was foolish to kill Sadeas, though it may have long term benefits. But think about it:

How many Princes or Highprinces so openly hated Sadeas?

Everyone will know what happened; they may not know who, specifically, did the deed, but they'll know who is behind it. It will significantly undermine the authority of the Throne and Dalinar's role as a Bondsmith. Honestly, Sadeas strikes me as the kind of man who would have contingencies in place for things like this. Maybe a prepaid contract with an assassin to murder Renarin, Adolin, and Dalinar should he himself be murdered.

The specifics don't matter. What matters is that you should never, ever impulsively murder someone. Always think it through very carefully. Sadeas' murder won't just blow over.

[ddleg]

Jashna killed several murderers in the way of kings. She did it with pre meditation and an intent. Saddias has killed thousands of people in dalinars army and many thru assination attempts. I have to agree with jasnahs perspective on her own actions. If evil people can be killed to save lives then it is the right thing to do. If Saddias were to live thousands if not hundreds of thousands more would die. He is an evil man and needed to be removed.

[grinachu]

I was surprised by it, plot wise. For Adolin, it was worse than a crime, it was a blunder. 

 

I agree with those who have said that Jasnah would have done it, and without compunction. In fact if Jasnah had reached the Shattered Plains Szeth would be looking for a new head, Sadeas would have been turned into diamond, the Parshendi would have allied with the Alethi, and Elhokar would have been slapped into good sense 

Edited March 12, 2014 by grinachu

[name_here]

Yeah, I expect this is going to come back to haunt them eventually. Then again, there are literally thousands of people who wanted Sadeas dead, so the murder might not get associated with Dalinar.

 

I mean, there's the bridgemen, his other slaves, every single survivor of the Tower battle, probably everyone who went in for the Everstorm battle and would really have liked another six armies backing them up, and probably a lot of additional people not in the above catagories.

Edited March 12, 2014 by name_here

[Seloun]

I think Kaladin, pre-third ideal, would have murdered Amaram the same way if given the chance. The difference is Adolin doesn't have Syl to guide him like Kal does.

 

 

 

Kaladin basically wanted to kill Amaram the way Adolin killed Sadeas.

 

...

 

That's sort of the point, though. Kaladin wanting to kill Amaram in that fashion is clearly depicted as being morally wrong. Kaladin acknowledges it's wrong the entire book; he just tries to rationalize to himself why it's okay. What Kaladin wants to do isn't always consistent with Kaladin's morality, but so far Kaladin's moral sense appears to be the 'correct' one in the series.

[Chrono she/her]

Was killing Sadeas a really good thing? Absolutely. Sadeas would have just caused more problems, even if nobody believed his whole "Dalinar had a Parshendi in his personal guard, so obviously he rigged the entire thing," spiel. It's a distraction from what needs to be done, it's a potential hazard, and it's a headache Dalinar doesn't need.

 

But was it the right thing to do? For Adolin, I don't think so. For Jasnah, maybe. For others, absolutely. The main problem I had with Adolin killing Sadeas was not the fact that he killed him, but how he did it. It was shockingly wrong for his character. Adolin has always been extremely straightforward with everything, from emotions to killing on the battlefield. To kill Sadeas - an essentially unarmed middle aged man who, even with Adolin in his condition, was on the losing side of the battle - goes against everything he is. It's murder, straight up.

 

Not only does it clash against Adolin's character, it's also brash and impulsive. Adolin just snaps and goes crazy. Sure, Sadeas had been taunting him all throughout the book, and he was a major nuisance to Dalinar, but Adolin always managed to hold his self control. The fact that he snaps here makes me very worried for him. Either Adolin is shocked with himself and vows to keep better control of his emotions, or he becomes weaker and more susceptible to this kind of thing. 

 

Eventually, someone's going to find out, fingers are going to be pointed, and words will be spoken. Ialai might even decide to go after Adolin himself. Will Adolin snap again and kill more people this way? I certainly hope not.

[Guest Shash]

Ialai may take over. To damnation with traditions.

It's not as simple as that, I don't think. And why does everyone instinctively rebel against traditions? In the past 10 years I've seen the word traditional become synonymous with 'contemptuously outdated.' As human beings, whether it be Earthling or Rosharan, we're all beautifully different and unique - just as each individual has his or her own strengths and weaknesses, each demographic has theirs. All cultures aren't equal. Nor are all religions. Nor are both sexes. Each has strengths and weaknesses. Should be try and pick one best? Certainly not! Just as the Knights Radiants have different specialties, so do Rosharan cultures, species, religions, and sexes. Now, in the face of a Desolation to end all Desolations, is not the time to break traditions just for the sake of breaking them. Society needs them desperately. You can't pretend everyone is the same; that Sadeas' wife is competent enough to take on a Rosharan man's roll. She's would fail miserably. Just like Sadeas would undoubtedly fail at performing the duties and responsibilities of his wife.