Roshar Magic Systems

[The Chosen]

We know on Scadrial there are three magic systems: allomancy for Preservation, hemulergy for Ruin, and feruchamy for the interaction between the two, what we now call Harmony.

 

I had assumed Roshar would also have three magic systems for it's two shards (ignoring Odium who hasn't actively invested anywhere) and perhaps also leftover magic systems created by Adonalsium. The two magic systems we know of are Surgebinding and the Old Magic, and it seems like Surgebinding is of Honor and the Old Magic is of Cultivation. 

The first problem I have with this is the reason Surgebinding is of Honor is because it has to do with binding and oaths, the definition of Honor in the cosmere, but in reality the oaths are unnecessary for Surgebinding, as we see that Ishar forced organization on the first Radiants, creating the Knights and the oaths. (We don't actually know there were no oaths before, and there is still bonding)

Also we know that some of the orders of Radiants are considered closer to Honor and some closer to Cultivation. I think it is impossible to say all the spren that can form Nahel bonds are completely splinters of Honor, as Edgedancers bond to Cultivationspren which are clearly splinters of Cultivation. That being said, I think it is safe to assume that the other orders considered closer to Cultivation are also bonding spren that are splinters of Cultivation. Therefore I think it is hard to say that Surgebinding, which is half bonding to splinters of Cultivation, is completely Honors magic system.

Finally, I don't like to say that the Old Magic is of Cultivation. If we look at the model of Scadrial, allomancy and hemalurgy seem very symmetrical, using the same 16 metals and having the same sorting etc, but with the little information we have it does not seem like the Old Magic is in any way similar to Surgebinding, not having 10 kinds of anything of the sort. Also in the little we have seen it doesn't seem to have so much to do with cultivation.

 

Based on all this, the first theory I have is that the Old Magic is actually a remnant from Adonalsium that Cultivation took over when she came, like how Honor took over the highstorms. This could also explain why it is called the Old Magic.

The second theory I have, which I think I actually read somewhere, is that Surgebinding is actually a magic system that is combining Honor and Cultivation. It consists of bonding with spren and then cultivating those bonds to advance. This could be explained as the Roshar equivalent to feruchamy, the interaction between Honor and Cultivation, but there are two more systems, one completely of Honor and one completely of Cultivation (maybe the Old Magic but as I already explained I don't think so).

My final theory is that really Roshar magic systems are actually completely different from on Scadrial and we don't have three for the two shards at all. This is because on Scadrial the two shards, after working together to create the planet, wanted nothing more to do with each other and ended up with separate but similar magic systems and a third that came from where they interacted, but on Roshar Honor and Cultivation actively wanted to stay together and work together so they only ended up with one combined magic system.

 

I think the biggest problem with this theory is that Surgebinding started with Honor giving Honorblades to the Heralds as part of the Oathpact, all implying it is only of Honor, but it could be explained that Honor was just more actively involved.

 

I am sorry for not quoting my sources, this is based on many things I have read. Also I am sorry if any or all of this has been said, I am new and have only been able to read so many threads.

Since this is my first post yes I do want a cookie and no I won't give you my breath (but you should know it doesn't make sense to ask someone to blindly repeat "my life to yours, my breath become yours" because awakening needs Intent).

 

[Weltall]

Here then, have a cookie. If you feel a slight pricking sensation, think nothing of it. I certainly didn't stick a hemalurgic spike in it so I could subliminally give you commands (YOU MUST GIVE ME YOUR BREATH) or anything like that... Welcome to the Shard!

Umm, I'm not sure if you've yet read Oathbringer or not but some of the things in that book are very relevant to this topic and they can't actually be discussed here.

1 hour ago, The Chosen said:

The first problem I have with this is the reason Surgebinding is of Honor is because it has to do with binding and oaths, the definition of Honor in the cosmere, but in reality the oaths are unnecessary for Surgebinding, as we see that Ishar forced organization on the first Radiants, creating the Knights and the oaths. (We don't actually know there were no oaths before, and there is still bonding)

We don't actually know whether what Ishar did forced the proto-Radiants to swear these Ideals in order to gain their powers or whether he forced organization upon them, in the form of the Orders and giving them additional precepts to follow that aren't directly related to their surgebinding. We have for example Dalinar's vision of Nohadon where the latter talks about surgebinders in a way that implies that they were a destabilizing influence and that the Knights Radiant hadn't yet been established. The system of Ideals could well have been in place beforehand. And no matter how you slice it, proto-Radiants were binding Splinters of Honor before the Radiants emerged, even if it's only the proto-Windrunners whose spren are closest to Honor.

But to go to a later point, we know that some 'Radiantspren' are 'of Cultivation' and others are a mix of the two. Brandon has said that all three Shards on Roshar (or their spren) are able to work within the bounds of a magic system that already existed. This is probably why he's said that depending on how you slice it, Roshar can be said to have three or thirty different magic systems. And extrapolating from that, we can assume that Roshar doesn't strictly follow the 'rules' that Mistborn seems to have laid out, since Preservation and Ruin created Scadrial from scratch, while the Rosharan trio arrived to find worlds already in existence, with magic in place.

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Based on all this, the first theory I have is that the Old Magic is actually a remnant from Adonalsium that Cultivation took over when she came, like how Honor took over the highstorms. This could also explain why it is called the Old Magic.

Brandon has described the Old Magic as 'its own weird thing' rather than one of the systems. Though it's quite likely that even though it has an association with Cultivation in the present, it had its origins before the Shards arrived, with Adonalsium. Good observation.

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My final theory is that really Roshar magic systems are actually completely different from on Scadrial and we don't have three for the two shards at all. This is because on Scadrial the two shards, after working together to create the planet, wanted nothing more to do with each other and ended up with separate but similar magic systems and a third that came from where they interacted, but on Roshar Honor and Cultivation actively wanted to stay together and work together so they only ended up with one combined magic system

Yeah, as I mentioned above, Roshar's situation is a bit different from Scadrial so it may break the 'rules' about the number of magic systems. Another example of this in the Cosmere is magic on Sel, with its regional flavors of what Brandon has said are all a single underlying system, some of which may lean more heavily towards Devotion or Dominion.

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I am sorry for not quoting my sources, this is based on many things I have read. Also I am sorry if any or all of this has been said, I am new and have only been able to read so many threads.

Don't worry about it, we all have to start somewhere. Enjoy yourself, read more theories as you find the time and the wonders of the Cosmere (and our crazy theorizing) shall open up before you. Also, if you don't already know about it, Arcanum is an amazing resource for what Brandon has said outside the books themselves. So in the future if you want to source a quote, that's become the go-to spot.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Weltall

[SallyA she/her]

Reading this it occured to me .... if Surgebinders are being reborn into the world, and the Parshendi are simultaneously taking up "Stormform" a stronger form overall, then somewhere, I strongly suspect, shattering has again begun, and would it not be the shattering itself which brings the desolation?

Is the Everstorm, (the manifestation of he who hates, who is darkness), a recurrent theme in the lives of these tangled cultures?  Are they struggling against an unknowable oppressor?  . . . Over thousands of years???  We are told [cut to remove OB spoilers] . . . But it might be they were only already embattled in a very old conflict, and represented the best answer the "Rebels" had at the time?  Their problem landed on the world of the Parshendi?

Edited March 7, 2018 by Mestiv
I removed a part with information from OB, as this is not an OB topic.

[Calderis he/him]

On 3/5/2018 at 1:24 PM, The Chosen said:

The second theory I have, which I think I actually read somewhere, is that Surgebinding is actually a magic system that is combining Honor and Cultivation. It consists of bonding with spren and then cultivating those bonds to advance. This could be explained as the Roshar equivalent to feruchamy, the interaction between Honor and Cultivation, but there are two more systems, one completely of Honor and one completely of Cultivation (maybe the Old Magic but as I already explained I don't think so).

This is the version that I believe. Oaths for Honor, a guiding set of ideals to bind the behavior, and progression and advancement through the those ideals representing the growth of Cultivation. 

As far as the difference between Roshar and Scadrial... I think that the independent systems and the one interacting were only possible because those shards created the planet. Because of this the world was, magically, a blank slate. The magic was free to develop completely from the Shards themselves and their interactions. 

For Roshar, you have multiple shards arriving on a world in which a magic structure had already been established. The native spren bonds in the fauna of the world are examples of how this system already functioned. The Shards created new splinters, and the Honorblades, tapping into the already existing magic system and expanding upon it. 

I believe that any world with an existing system can be added to... But a new system will not be made from scratch. So now on Scadrial, I believe that a new shard arriving could create a new metal and an effect in each of the three systems... But they would not develop a system of their own. 

[Yata he/him]

@SallyA I am not sure about what you are refering to the shattering to be begun again

Edited March 7, 2018 by Yata

[MountainKing]

So the Old Magic is just the rewriting of the spiritweb until Sanderson tells us more, the Knights Radiants are of both Cultivation and Honor, but Cultivation allowed Honor's heralds to shape the magic system.

[Pagerunner he/him]

Just your friendly neighborhood Spidermod, reminding everyone that this topic is not in the Oathbringer Spoilers board, and that no OB spoilers should be posted here at all. I have hidden several offending posts. If you would like to continue that conversation, feel free to make a new topic in the appropriate subforum.