[OB] Main Focus of Fourth Book

[ShardBreaker]

Hey everyone, I was just wondering everyone's personal opinion on what the main focus of the fourth book of the Stormlight Archives will be. I have a few ideas but was just wondering what everyone else thought. Also, I had originally posted this on the normal stormlight discussion board, but have moved it to here due to the fact that it probably will contain spoilers.

[Carla Bridge Four]

I think it'll be Listeners/Singers. Being Eshonai's backstory book, and with the big change in Venli's story, it's a safe bet that we'll have a lot of Downsingers/Singers/Listeners story.

[ShardBreaker]

Don't we know pretty much all there is to Eshonai already though? We know she was on the original expedition that discovered the humans, had bonded with a strange spren, than died. Is there any more information that's actually important?

[Greywatch]

I guess we'll find out, since she's definitely getting flashbacks.

[Kaladins]

More Eshonai would be cool, but I feel like focusing on more of the members of Bridge Four's backstories would be cool, as we have only really been alluded to their backstories via character interaction. Finding out more in-time reasoning to how more of them ended up at the bottom would be really interesting. I also want a lot more Renarin, for Kelek's sake! 

Edited March 1, 2018 by Kaladins

[StormingTexan]

59 minutes ago, NickPlum said:

Don't we know pretty much all there is to Eshonai already though? We know she was on the original expedition that discovered the humans, had bonded with a strange spren, than died. Is there any more information that's actually important?

That is exactly what I am trying to figure out. I trust Brandon will make it interesting but man it is hard for me to imagine what we could learn about her past that I would care about. 

[Carla Bridge Four]

I can think of:

• Her childhood and all the songs her mom used to know when she was sane.
• Her relationship with Venly and how Venly discovered what she did.
• More complicated and subtle things that will tell us the past of Downsingers, Listeners and Fused.

In the "present"

We'll see Venli probably joining team with other Radiants? Rlain's destiny? If there are Listeners left? How Venli can bring Singers and Humans together?

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, NickPlum said:

Don't we know pretty much all there is to Eshonai already though? We know she was on the original expedition that discovered the humans, had bonded with a strange spren, than died. Is there any more information that's actually important?

1 minute ago, StormingTexan said:

That is exactly what I am trying to figure out. I trust Brandon will make it interesting but man it is hard for me to imagine what we could learn about her past that I would care about. 

I think Eshonai's flashbacks are going to be as much about the culture, and more importantly her interactions with Venli. I think we'll find out quite a bit beyond what we've already seen. 

[Angsos]

Eshonai's flashbacks are 2fold I think, to add tragic layers to her story and more importantly give back story to present events

[TequilaJack]

1 hour ago, NickPlum said:

Don't we know pretty much all there is to Eshonai already though? We know she was on the original expedition that discovered the humans, had bonded with a strange spren, than died. Is there any more information that's actually important?

There's a big chunk missing around just before WoK started

Why was Gavilar killed? What was goal of Sons of Honor? Why did they want old gods returned? Any why were Parshendi trying to stop them? Did they really risk desolation again trying to bring Radiants back? Was Gavilar evil or misguided in attempting that?

And Parshendi have longer memories than Humans or have better grasp of their history, so it'll also serve as means to get more knowledge on desolations and viodbringers of the olden times. 

Sanderson gave very vegue answers on whether Parshendi can become Surgebinders and did not rule it out. So we may see Eshonai as some kind of early attempt at bonding a spren. 

There's lots that can be tied in to Eshonai's backstory. 

Edited March 1, 2018 by TequilaJack

[ShardBreaker]

True, I agree with what everyone has been saying, there will definitely be more about the listeners. It'll be interesting to see how Sanderson does it though.  

[Solant]

It occurred to me awhile ago that Brandon might have stated Eshonai as the flashback character for this book prior to OB just to keep from revealing the plot twist with her. Just thinking out loud here, but it's entirely possible that Venli was the intended flashback character for book 4 since the beginning, but saying so before OB was released would have taken away from the emotional impact.

[Calderis]

35 minutes ago, Solant said:

It occurred to me awhile ago that Brandon might have stated Eshonai as the flashback character for this book prior to OB just to keep from revealing the plot twist with her. Just thinking out loud here, but it's entirely possible that Venli was the intended flashback character for book 4 since the beginning, but saying so before OB was released would have taken away from the emotional impact.

The flashbacks will still be Eshonai's. 

Quote

Windrunner

/u/Mistborn (Brandon) said that Eshonai will be the flashback character in Book 4. (source), which would indicate that she's probably still alive in some form.

But we'll see. He could've changed it or that could've been a diversion from Venli being the actual flashback character.

Brandon Sanderson

Eshonai is the flashback character--but she is dead in the present. I've warned people multiple times that we WILL have flashbacks to the viewpoints of characters who have died.

source

 

[Wandering Investor]

I think book 4 will continure to define the current conflict. The dawnsingers will be a big part, in which we'll learn their culture and mindset from Eshonei's flashbacks. I suspect we'll get more information about the Radiant orders, not just the members, but the orders themselves. Along with expansion on Odium's specific short term goals. OB introduced the heart of the conflict, but we really don't have too much information about the parsh, or what the end game of such a fight could be.

[galendo]

4 hours ago, Solant said:

It occurred to me awhile ago that Brandon might have stated Eshonai as the flashback character for this book prior to OB just to keep from revealing the plot twist with her. Just thinking out loud here, but it's entirely possible that Venli was the intended flashback character for book 4 since the beginning, but saying so before OB was released would have taken away from the emotional impact.

I actually think it's the other way around.  Originally, I think Eshonai was supposed to have the role now assigned to Venli.  I think that after Szeth's resurrection and Jasnah's pseudo-resurrection at the end of WoR, Brandon felt that bringing Eshonai back after having her fall off the cliff would be too much -- he's already made it clear that he thinks handling Jasnah in such a fashion in WoR was a mistake.

Unfortunately, I think swapping Venli for Eshonai was an even bigger mistake.  Literally every scene with Venli in Oathbringer would have been stronger with Eshonai in her role, IMHO, which is the main reason why I don't think the swap was planned.  Venli didn't have any reason to risk her life saving Timbre, but Eshonai would have.  Odium would have had more reason to harass Eshonai than he did Venli.  He also didn't really have a reason to save Venli from the Fused who wanted to inhabit her -- but the command to "open yourself up completely" would have been a great opportunity for Timbre to bond Eshonai, and he could have chased off (or captured) the Fused.

Fundamentally, I think Venli is basically just a last-minute swap for Eshonai.  She doesn't quite work as well in the book as Eshonai would have, but by the time WoR was published it was too late to go back and give her the characterization she needed.  She kind of works as a substitute, just not very well.  If you look closely, you can pretty easily see the seams.

[Song]

I think the back-story will be facinating mostly because of their Mother. We know she favoured Venli and didn't like Eshoni's wanderings, and that she held on to the history of the people.  I think we will have heaps of questions about the past answered, and get some huge character moments within that as her memories go. We also haven't seen much of how Venli and Ulim met, and I bet we will see hints of their relationship that Eshoni won't pick up on but as readers we will understand.

I've said this in other posts but I think Venli's arch will ve much more interesting, as she carries the guilt for all that has happened (including the death of her sister). Eshoni's transformation would not have been so significant.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Song

[Scion of the Mists]

I agree that Venli is more interesting than Eshonai, because she is more dynamic.  By the time we meet Eshonai, she's already willing to work with Dalinar to find a peaceful solution.  Venli, by contrast, embraced the more aggressive route, tricked her sister into the Stormform transformation, resulting in her death.  Then everything blew up in her face, as it turns out she's been manipulated by the forces of evil, and now she has to make amends.  Basically, she's the bad guy turned good.  

[Carla Bridge Four]

I agree with @Song, Venli's will be one helluva redemption arc. 

Her actions set into motion the end of the world, but also, she allowed all the parshmen to regain their minds. On a hand, she's a destroyer and was ambitious and reckless, on the other, she actually freed not just the Fused. Her complicated actions, her regrets, will contrast really well with Eshonai's wanderings and curiosity. 

The Mother will be a central character, and honestly, it was time we got a Singers/Listeners backstory book. It'll make it all more intense!

[ShardBreaker]

It will be interesting to see more of the Singers/Listeners history and culture, particularly the part about humans taking over the Listeners world after destroying their own. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

1 hour ago, NickPlum said:

It will be interesting to see more of the Singers/Listeners history and culture, particularly the part about humans taking over the Listeners world after destroying their own. 

I'm not sure we will see fully that until Ash's and Taln's books.

12 hours ago, galendo said:

I actually think it's the other way around.  Originally, I think Eshonai was supposed to have the role now assigned to Venli.  I think that after Szeth's resurrection and Jasnah's pseudo-resurrection at the end of WoR, Brandon felt that bringing Eshonai back after having her fall off the cliff would be too much 

Not really. Absolutely every fan assumed Eshonai was alive from the cliff fall between Plate and Stormform. Keeping her alive would have been no surprise, her dying was the shocker. 

My guess is on the Sanderavalanche of book 4 Venli will swap sides with her followers. Since at each book's avalanche the flashback character "saves the day" Venli will likely make the quiet revolution throughout the book and then make her move during a battle at the end. I don't really know how much Venli will truly appear in the book, as I find it hard to believe she will be onscreen as long as Kaladin, Shallan or Dalinar on their flashback book.

[Stormblessed Dolphin]

Sanderavalanche?

 

 

[galendo]

8 hours ago, Song said:

I've said this in other posts but I think Venli's arch will ve much more interesting, as she carries the guilt for all that has happened (including the death of her sister). Eshoni's transformation would not have been so significant.

We can hope for the best, but I still think Eshonai would have worked a lot better.  It's not like Eshonai would have been lacking in guilt -- she was the one who convinced most of the Parshmen to take on stormform, after all.  And the arc of a good, well-meaning character who inadvertently destroyed her entire people seems significantly more compelling than a selfish, egotistical one who did the same.

@WhiteLeeopard:  While I don't necessarily agree with you about the fandom's response to Eshonai (I remember seeing at least one or two threads on here debating whether she would be alive or not.  Most seemed to think she would be, but it definitely wasn't 100%.  And many of those who thought she would be alive generally thought so because it seemed a really dumb idea to kill her off), much less Brandon Sanderson's reaction to the same, I do find your observation about each character "saving the day" during their respective flashback book to be an interesting one.

I'm not sure whether the pattern will continue or not.  I think we'd need to see a lot more from Venli in the next book for her to do the same thing in a believable fashion.  There's basically no believable way for her to convince the entire Parshendi population to switch sides in a mere year or two, or even most of them, but it wouldn't be entirely beyond the bounds of disbelief for her to convince a significant chunk.  Enough to swing a critical battle, maybe.

[WhiteLeeopard]

11 hours ago, galendo said:

I'm not sure whether the pattern will continue or not.  I think we'd need to see a lot more from Venli in the next book for her to do the same thing in a believable fashion.  There's basically no believable way for her to convince the entire Parshendi population to switch sides in a mere year or two, or even most of them, but it wouldn't be entirely beyond the bounds of disbelief for her to convince a significant chunk.  Enough to swing a critical battle, maybe.

I don't really expect Venli to convince all the Singers. Yes, the Fused treat them like crem, but the parsh still revere them and listen daily to their stories of evil humans who conquered and enslaved the original Singers. My most optimistic estimate of how many Venli may be able to sway into turning away and making their own choices (and basically turn into the new Listeners) is 30-40%.

I also really hope we see more Rlain on book 4.

Edited March 3, 2018 by WhiteLeeopard

[Calderis]

12 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I also really hope we see more Rlain on book 4.

I was already pretty certain that Rlain's disappearance, and the as yet unaccounted for group of listeners that fled from Narak, meant that we'd be seeing more about both in the next book to coincide with the Eshonai/Venli narrative. 

Then this WoP sealed it. 

Quote

Doomquill

Frustrated with the editing/beta readers for not noticing Brandon leaving out a character.

The character I'm talking about is Rlain. An entire part of the book was spent with every single member of Bridge Four talking about how Rlain wasn't really a part of things, and even more so Rlain himself in his POV chapter. And then nothing! We get a conclusion to the whole buildup of Bridge Four, but Rlain is nowhere mentioned in the last half of the book. Nevermind that we've all spent an entire book (and the three years since WoR) wondering if Rlain will become a squire, and nevermind that we get an answer to whether a Parshman can become Radiant in the first place. We just get nothing! No resolution.

Peter Ahlstrom

Everyone noticed this. I noticed it even before the beta read started. Brandon was well aware, and this was all intentional. I'll bet you can think of some reasons for it.

source

 

[Guest Procrastinationspren]

I'm interested in Venli's progression as a radiant. Although she has already attracted a radiant spren, she hasn't sworn the first ideal yet (I think?). So I wonder wether or not she will progress fast enough in order to get her shardblade by the end of the book.