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southern scadrial medallions


Krios

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11 minutes ago, Krios said:

How do the medallions of the southern Scadrians grant allomancy?

Ferruchemical Nicrosil stores the ability to use investiture.  on Scadrial, that is going to be ferruchemical or allomantic abilittes. so an unkeyed nicrosil mind that is stored with a given allomantic ability would grant that allomancy.  so a medallion that granted allomantic steel, for instance, would have to have that nicrosil-mind as part of it.

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31 minutes ago, Calderis said:

As to how someone who isn't a nicrosil Ferring can use a medallion to gain those powers... We don't know yet. 

Think it has to do with "Identity" as well..i think if you store identity the same time you store investiture, the investiture isnt linked to a person (how if you store something like weight, it then only allows you to access it, whereas you store unidentified weight, someone else can use it)

Least thats my theory

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2 minutes ago, Niteshado said:

Think it has to do with "Identity" as well..i think if you store identity the same time you store investiture, the investiture isnt linked to a person (how if you store something like weight, it then only allows you to access it, whereas you store unidentified weight, someone else can use it)

Least thats my theory

That doesn't fix the problem. Even if the power in the metal is Identity free, it can the  be used by anyone who has that power, because it's not locked to a specific person. We see this with the identity free goldmind that Wayne gets. He can use it because he has the ability. 

Medallions take it a step further and grant the abilities, but nicrosil itself should be subject to the same limitations as the other metals. That's the part about medallions that we don't have answers to. How does nicrosil grant the ability to everyone? That's more then just Identity. 

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5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

but nicrosil itself should be subject to the same limitations as the other metals

i think if its unidentified, then it grants investiture, you have unidentified investiture which i think would calculate into, you now have the ability, for as much as stored, to use that investiture, which is magic ability. 

Its how Marasi, who only can use Pulse, manages to use steel alloymancy. unidentified investiture (magical ability granting)

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11 minutes ago, Niteshado said:

i think if its unidentified, then it grants investiture, you have unidentified investiture which i think would calculate into, you now have the ability, for as much as stored, to use that investiture, which is magic ability. 

Its how Marasi, who only can use Pulse, manages to use steel alloymancy. unidentified investiture (magical ability granting)

It's not that simple, even if the investiture has no identity key, you still need the spiritual ability to use that power. Otherwise everyone would have all of the abilities. Because Allomancy automatically keys to the person my using it. If you don't have the spiritual ability to access the power, it doesn't work though 

Removing the identity from nicrosil, doesn't grant the spiritual ability to rap nicrosil, which should be needed to draw anything out of a nicrosilmind to gain the stored abilities. 

Removing the identity from the power is not something I'm arguing against. That's part of it. But if all it took was that, then making the bands should be simple, and there would be no reason for Allik to say medallions with more than 2 powers are rare.

There are many topics discussing this. Identity is not enough in itself. 

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But see:  Just having a chunk of unsealed investiture doesn't mean you should be able to use it.  The nicrosil not only contains investiture, but also somehow gives you the ability to use it, which it shouldn't.  It makes you into a temporary feruchemist or allomancer.  And it shouldn't.  That's not how it works, as far as we have been told.

So either there's something we're seriously misunderstanding about how investiture works, or there's something weird about how they make the medallions.

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2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

If you don't have the spiritual ability to access the power, it doesn't work though 

Saying if you cant use allomancy, then you cant use nicrocil at all? theres also the Ettmetal and such, but you do bring up a point. 

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2 minutes ago, RShara said:

The nicrosil not only contains investiture, but also somehow gives you the ability to use it, which it shouldn't.

see i feel like if you are given the ability to have access to investiture, it should work for you. Investiture is a detailed and complicated subject though. there is also the Excisor which isnt explained much i dont think, least there isnt much on it on coppermind

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1 minute ago, Niteshado said:

Saying if you cant use allomancy, then you cant use nicrocil at all? theres also the Ettmetal and such, but you do bring up a point. 

Yes, that's the part that's we don't know. A nicrosil Ferring should be able to access any identity free power stored in a nicrosilmind. Medallions grant powers to anyone though. 

The question is how the ability to gain access to the powers is granted in the first place. Once you have access to the nicrosil it all makes sense, but that one crucial piece is still missing. 

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1 minute ago, Niteshado said:

Saying if you cant use allomancy, then you cant use nicrocil at all? theres also the Ettmetal and such, but you do bring up a point. 

it's more if you don't already have nicrosil ferruchemy, then you shouldnt be able to use a nicrosilmind, even if it doesn't have an identity key.  but in practice, based on what we see in the books, it appears that it doesn't work that way.  for some reason the medallions seem to grant not just whatever ferruchemy or allomancy that they are designed to grant, but also enough nicroil ferruchemy to access those abilities.  However, based on the description of the medallions, it is not clear how they do that, unless any nicrosil metalmind automatically grants nicrosil ferrruchemy, which seems unlikely.

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1 minute ago, Calderis said:

The question is how the ability to gain access to the powers is granted in the first place. Once you have access to the nicrosil it all makes sense, but that one crucial piece is still missing. 

When reading about investiture, everything has some level of investiture. I feel like this could play a key part too, in accessing it. if you could access it, it would open up everything. 

example: Now yes Lesarium is god metal, but Elend still knew how to use metal at all. he instinctively knew how to burn it. 

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3 minutes ago, Niteshado said:

 

Unkeyed - No identity lock, anyone who already has access to the power can use the medallion.
Unsealed - no lock whatsoever, anyone at all can use the medallion.

Hemalurgic Spikes work by grafting on the portion of Spiritweb that allows someone to use a power. Without that bit of Spiritweb, they cannot use that power. Unsealed Medallions bypass this restriction through unknown means.

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On 2/18/2018 at 3:09 PM, Dunkum said:

it's more if you don't already have nicrosil ferruchemy, then you shouldnt be able to use a nicrosilmind, even if it doesn't have an identity key.  but in practice, based on what we see in the books, it appears that it doesn't work that way.  for some reason the medallions seem to grant not just whatever ferruchemy or allomancy that they are designed to grant, but also enough nicroil ferruchemy to access those abilities.  However, based on the description of the medallions, it is not clear how they do that, unless any nicrosil metalmind automatically grants nicrosil ferrruchemy, which seems unlikely.

I always assumed that there's a sort of "outer layer" that is so loosely stored that it cab escape to anyone who tries to use the metalmind

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8 hours ago, kuiinteth of isaana said:

I always assumed that there's a sort of "outer layer" that is so loosely stored that it cab escape to anyone who tries to use the metalmind

The main issue here is pretty much shown when they use the iron metalminds so the airship can fly. 

The moment that they know they're holding metalmind they can use it, and they all begin storing weight. 

A need to tap nicrosil to gain the power is never mentioned. They simply have iron Feruchemy by virtue of contact with the medallion. 

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1 minute ago, Calderis said:

The main issue here is pretty much shown when they use the iron metalminds so the airship can fly. 

The moment that they know they're holding metalmind they can use it, and they all begin storing weight. 

A need to tap nicrosil to gain the power is never mentioned. They simply have iron Feruchemy by virtue of contact with the medallion. 

Fair enough

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