Focuses on Roshar

[Djerf]

Yes, but a physical Focus is easy to understand since the physical world is the world we inhabit ourselves. Cognitive focuses are also quite easy to understand but less so then the physical.

The question that’s interesting for this discussion is where does the cognitive end and the spiritual start? My best guess is that the spiritual is not a moral act or decision but rather the thing that lets people know right from wrong.

You don’t need to think to know that killing an innocent is bad, you just know it, and perhaps feelings count too, you hate or love without thought often contrary to it. But to make a moral decision you have to think.

By my definition however, a spiritual thing is passive or at least not subject to any kind of mental command and that makes for a bad focus, which probably means that I’m wrong.

This makes the next few SA books much more interesting because if the focus on Roshar is spiritual then we can start to understand the last 1/3 of Cosmere.

P.S it just hit me that perhaps it’s really simple.

We do have two defining attributes for each order of knights and they have two surges, what if whatever things that makes Kaladin to lead and protect is the focus?

[Arcanist Lupus]

P.S it just hit me that perhaps it’s really simple.

We do have two defining attributes for each order of knights and they have two surges, what if whatever things that makes Kaladin to lead and protect is the focus?

Again: Kaladin's Leading/Protecting attributes are what gives him access to his power. This is not the same as actually using the power.

[Djerf]

I know that if one acts a specific way one will attract a spren and form the nahel bond

( Roshar snapping 101) and I don’t know if I can accept that this is a spiritual thing. What I was trying to say is this.

Every one can feel hate, love, pain, hunger and we can also feel the joy of building something and the need to protect, this are things that exists without the need for a higher brain function.

As you’ve said acting on these things so often that it becomes a defining trait gives the magic, concentrating on these things could then be the focus.

Look at Kaladin, he protected Tien and then he started to protect and lead random kids in the army and then a lot of slaves but when we see Kaladin for the first time in the book, he has stopped doing this but he still feels the need to. And thus the thing that drives Kaladin to protect is separated from Kaladin protecting.

I don’t feel that I’m making myself very clear, I never do which is the reason I tend to just lurk on this kind of forums. =)

[happyman]

Of course, you get access to power on Scadrial by being born into it (or stabbed with it), you get access to power on Nalthis by having a lot of Breath, and you get access to power on Sel by being randomly chosen (or being sent to a demon monastery).

Don't confuse getting access to power, and using that power. These are two separate things.

Hence I listed those things that determined which power you get, not the prerequisites required to use them. The reason you can access it at all also varies from world to world, but that's now what we're talking about here.

[b4dave]

Not sure if this has been said, but I think that the focus on Roshar is the Oaths. On Scadrial, you get more power by having more metal, on Nalthis you get more power by having more breath. On Roshar it becomes apparently that you get more power with the more oaths you speak aloud.

[happyman]

Not sure if this has been said, but I think that the focus on Roshar is the Oaths. On Scadrial, you get more power by having more metal, on Nalthis you get more power by having more breath. On Roshar it becomes apparently that you get more power with the more oaths you speak aloud.

Hmmm. You have a point about Nalthis, but for Scadrial, I would argue that all having more metal does is let you use your powers longer. You get more power, in the sense it is usually used, by having more Preservation in you.

Basically, I think you've hit on an important part of the magic system, but not the foci.

[Arcanist Lupus]

Not sure if this has been said, but I think that the focus on Roshar is the Oaths. On Scadrial, you get more power by having more metal, on Nalthis you get more power by having more breath. On Roshar it becomes apparently that you get more power with the more oaths you speak aloud.

Yes, but the focus on Nalthis is Commands, not Breaths. An interesting point, though.

[discipleofhoid]

Yes, but the focus on Nalthis is Commands, not Breaths. An interesting point, though.

I think that what may be making it hard to determine what the focus is on Roshar is that the connection to a shard(I.E. what provides the power) is mainly spiritual in nature for all of the magic systems. However in most of the other systems we have seen the focus is not spiritual in nature. (Metallic arts and Elantrians have a physical focus, Metal and Aons. Awakening has a cognitive focus, Commands.) This makes them eaiser to tell apart. If surgebinding has a spiritual focus this explains our confusion.

What I would propose is that this is the case. The connection to the shard (what gives you the power) is formed by how you act. Any honorable attribute can form this connection. "Act with honor and honor will aid you" This however is not the focus. This is akin to having the genetics to be a mistborn or becoming an elantrian.

The focus then defines how the power pulled through that connection is used. We see this in the other systems: the shape of the aons forms the effect, the molecular shape of the metals defines their effect and the cognitive shape of the command forms its effect*. This being the case if Roshar has a spiritual focus there would be some spiritual thing/creature/connection that would determine what magical effect we see from the power. If we look Roshar has such a creature forming a connection with most of the people we see using magical powers. The focus for Roshar then are the spren that form spiritual connections with humans. It is the type of spren/connection that defines what powers they can use.

Let me know what you think of this idea.

*Note that while the physical shapes of the aons and the molecular shape of the metals defining their effect is cannon the thing about the cognitive shape for the breath is not. That seem to be being accepted by most in its thread though.

[b4dave]

I forgot to type that bit on Commands being the focus for Nalthis, and I 100% agree, my point though was that more breaths increases the effectiveness of the Command, much like saying all 5 Oaths increases the amount of Stormlight being used. I think the Oaths COULD be a cognitive focus.

Edited December 15, 2011 by b4dave

[discipleofhoid]

I forgot to type that bit on Commands being the focus for Nalthis, and I 100% agree, my point though was that more breaths increases the effectiveness of the Command, much like saying all 5 Oaths increases the amount of Stormlight being used. I think the Oaths COULD be a cognitive focus.

The counterpoint to the oaths being the focus (I thought they were to at first) is three-part

1) The focus is actively used every time the power is drawn. In elantris an Aon must be drawn. An awakener must use a command. A allomancer must burn metal. If the oaths are the focus that would mean the oaths would have to be spoken or thought every time a power is used. That is just not the case.

2) The focus does not increase the spiritual connection to the shard in any of the other systems. That is what the oaths appear to do. In the other systems there is often a way to gain a closer connection to the shard - but it is never the focus for using the power normally. Aon Rao is the aon for spirit - it increases the spiritual connection of elantrians to their shard. Lerasium increases an allomancers connection to preservation. Breaths seem to increase connection to endowment. None of these though are the focus for their magic system. I have to say that this is the category that the oaths fall into which means they aren't the focus.

3)The third and in my mind most important point that says the oaths are not a focus cognitive or otherwise is that kalidan was surgebinding for months before he ever learned the first of the oaths - thus the oaths are not required to surgebind and cannot be the focus for the power.

[Wispsy]

I wouldn't say more breath increases the effectiveness of commands, infact the more effective you are with commands the less breaths you require to awaken anything. So it is more like the opposite, the bette you are at commands the less breath you need. However having a lot of breaths does have other advantages anyway!

[king208]

The counterpoint to the oaths being the focus (I thought they were to at first) is three-part

1) The focus is actively used every time the power is drawn. In elantris an Aon must be drawn. An awakener must use a command. A allomancer must burn metal. If the oaths are the focus that would mean the oaths would have to be spoken or thought every time a power is used. That is just not the case.

2) The focus does not increase the spiritual connection to the shard in any of the other systems. That is what the oaths appear to do. In the other systems there is often a way to gain a closer connection to the shard - but it is never the focus for using the power normally. Aon Rao is the aon for spirit - it increases the spiritual connection of elantrians to their shard. Lerasium increases an allomancers connection to preservation. Breaths seem to increase connection to endowment. None of these though are the focus for their magic system. I have to say that this is the category that the oaths fall into which means they aren't the focus.

3)The third and in my mind most important point that says the oaths are not a focus cognitive or otherwise is that kalidan was surgebinding for months before he ever learned the first of the oaths - thus the oaths are not required to surgebind and cannot be the focus for the power.

1) An act affirming an oath could be what is invoking the focus. Which is to say when one makes an oath to protect couldn't protecting others through deed be like thinking a command? I don't think we've ever seen characters using powers not in fulfillment to some oath thy have made. (Except maybe Jasnah, though she only uses her powers to save others, could be why she brought Shallan along to the alley)

2) Poorly made eons create low power effects, poorly mixed metals can be ineffective or dangerous, poorly worded oaths only give a sliver of the power of the proper Oaths.

3) Kaladin makes all sorts of oaths, save Tien, Protect the newbies, Help the bridgemen survive, these poorly worded oaths allow him to build a bridge with Syl who seems to be his spiritual connection to Honor's power, however not until he makes the Oath does he get full access see point 2.

All the other characters who surgebind have at least an oath (except maybe Jasnah we don't know too much about her personal life yet). Kaladin makes a ton of smaller deeply held oaths, as mentioned before, Shallan makes some sort of a trade or pact with a... what are the inhabitants of Shadesmar called? Shades? In additon to her oaths to save her family and become Jasnah's ward (These are getting a little loose with the defintion of oath). Dalinar asserts that he will NOT LET ELKOHAR DIE before impossibly stopping the chasmfiend's claw while his Plate glows and we later find out that Elkohar's gems were partially drained, yeah Dalinar's a surgebinder (he also gets Thrills, a possible parallel with Shallan's Memories). Szeth has his Oathstone and the Oath to go with that.

The only real candidates for the focus on Roshar seem to be spren and oaths, not all of these characters have a spren however, that seems to only be Kaladin. You could say that the Shade? is Shallan's "spren" and Jasnah may have one as well, but well nothing like that exists for Szeth or Dalinar as far as we have seen (Dalinar's may be immature like when Syl was "like other windspren"). Oh I have seen the suggestion that the wavelengths of stormlight are the focus, which could be true but that seems to be an effect, the color of stormlight you absorb doesn't matter it's just what the powers effects put out that remains consistent.

Really Shallan and Jasnah are my weak point here but I think that's mostly because I haven't re read the parts where they used their powers in quite some time so I'm fuzzy on the details there.

Thank you for reading my ramblings on the subject, oh and I'm relativly new here has anyone else suggested that Dalinar is a surgebinder? My search came up with no results for that combo.

[discipleofhoid]

1) An act affirming an oath could be what is invoking the focus. Which is to say when one makes an oath to protect couldn't protecting others through deed be like thinking a command? I don't think we've ever seen characters using powers not in fulfillment to some oath thy have made. (Except maybe Jasnah, though she only uses her powers to save others, could be why she brought Shallan along to the alley)

2) Poorly made eons create low power effects, poorly mixed metals can be ineffective or dangerous, poorly worded oaths only give a sliver of the power of the proper Oaths.

3) Kaladin makes all sorts of oaths, save Tien, Protect the newbies, Help the bridgemen survive, these poorly worded oaths allow him to build a bridge with Syl who seems to be his spiritual connection to Honor's power, however not until he makes the Oath does he get full access see point 2.

All the other characters who surgebind have at least an oath (except maybe Jasnah we don't know too much about her personal life yet). Kaladin makes a ton of smaller deeply held oaths, as mentioned before, Shallan makes some sort of a trade or pact with a... what are the inhabitants of Shadesmar called? Shades? In additon to her oaths to save her family and become Jasnah's ward (These are getting a little loose with the defintion of oath). Dalinar asserts that he will NOT LET ELKOHAR DIE before impossibly stopping the chasmfiend's claw while his Plate glows and we later find out that Elkohar's gems were partially drained, yeah Dalinar's a surgebinder (he also gets Thrills, a possible parallel with Shallan's Memories). Szeth has his Oathstone and the Oath to go with that.

The only real candidates for the focus on Roshar seem to be spren and oaths, not all of these characters have a spren however, that seems to only be Kaladin. You could say that the Shade? is Shallan's "spren" and Jasnah may have one as well, but well nothing like that exists for Szeth or Dalinar as far as we have seen (Dalinar's may be immature like when Syl was "like other windspren"). Oh I have seen the suggestion that the wavelengths of stormlight are the focus, which could be true but that seems to be an effect, the color of stormlight you absorb doesn't matter it's just what the powers effects put out that remains consistent.

Really Shallan and Jasnah are my weak point here but I think that's mostly because I haven't re read the parts where they used their powers in quite some time so I'm fuzzy on the details there.

Thank you for reading my ramblings on the subject, oh and I'm relativly new here has anyone else suggested that Dalinar is a surgebinder? My search came up with no results for that combo.

It is commonly expected that Dalinar has/will be using stormlight.

If you broaden the focus to Oaths in general. It does help your case a bit. When you used Oaths with the capital I took that to mean the Oaths of the knights radiant in particular. But I still think that parts are missing for that to be the focus.

The biggest thing that using all oaths is missing is the specificity requirement for a focus. See these posts here and here. The first is an explanation of the attributes of a focus the second is my reasoning for how the Oaths of the knight radiant achieved that. I was proven wrong in my mind for the reasons in my previous post.

In response to some of your points: Poorly made aons do not work at all - There is only one maybe two cases of a poorly draw aons doing anything. 1) dilafs wife and 2) note that this one is a maybe: Elantris it's self after the reod. In both cases those targeted by the aon suffered until dead or the aon was fixed. Poorly mixed metals do not provide power either. You can get small amounts of power from non-allomanticly purified sources because they often contain small amounts of the metal that is in the right proportion.

As for the spren thing:

We have not seen Dalinar's spren yet but nor has he really used magic yet. For Shallan, Jasnah tells her that the anglehead spren she sees are related to what she does. This implies that Jasnah has a spren as well. Also in one of Dalinar's visions the knight tells him that "not all spren are as discerning as the honorspren" when speaking of surgebinders. I think it is pretty well established in the book that all surgebinders have a spren. Brandon has said that szeth is a special case. That said rereading the tread it becomes obvious that the spren cannot be the focus.

Edited December 16, 2011 by discipleofhoid

[Arcanist Lupus]

An observation: The first time Shallan sees the symbolheads, when she's drawing the picture of Taravangian, she had just refrained from making a quick about his appearance, and instead said something else, which might be considered more truthful (or not, depending). Maybe that's what made the symbolheads appear in her drawing?

[Meandering Monotreme]

I'm going to point out that we can't make any conclusions. I say this because we are trying to extrapolate from only three data points (Mistborn, Elantris, Warbreaker) to get information about a system. I point this out only because it shows that we don't have as much certain information as we think we do.

Anyway, we are forgetting how Kaladin uses is power. It tells us how he "inhales" and then gets stormlight that he can use. No mention is made to anything in the spiritual realm, so I will assume that the focus isn't spiritual (because if it had been, he would have noticed it). So I will go out on a limb and say that the focus is the body focus. I will get even more shaky evidence. Dalinar is probably in order Tanat, 9. Why do I say that? Because I don't know what the consensus is (if there is one) and Order Tanat helps my theory. What is the essence for Tanat? The bone. What does he do to protect the king? He goes inhumanly fast (arguably a bone strength boost) and holds up an entire chasmfeind (definitely a bone strength boost).

But what about Shallan? I will argue that Shallan doesn't have enough information associated with her. She hasn't even said the Oaths yet! (By the way, Dalinar has.) What she does is stictly done through spren, and I don't think that will be true forever.

Of course, this assumes that there is variant in the focus for each order, not each power, but I don't see how that is a bad thing.

[Wispsy]

If you are arguing that shallan has no information related to her you have not really read this thread or you are just plain ignoring things it was shallans hand the brushed the goblet and shallan who in shadesmar held the sphere of its soul and asked I to change (kinda!) the spren only seemed to grant access, that's access depended on either how true a statement it was or how well she knew herself.

I fail to see how moving very fast is a bone strength boost, especially when talking about an honourable man in shardplate. The harder your bones are doesn't change how fast you can run (except in extreme weakness where it would slow you down from them breaking) yes you would be able to take more pressure but I don't think dalinars bones are in danger of snapping every time he runs so he has to run slower unless they get strengthened...

That being said I have no problems with dalinar being 9 lol I have not thought that much about it as the only things we see are him usuing plate better.

edit:

Yes he breathes it in but it is his actions which determine which order he is In, which in turn determines how he uses stormlight (ie by breathing it in and using the gravity/pressure surges)

Edited December 18, 2011 by Wispsy

[Meandering Monotreme]

...my post seems so much less smart now that I think about it.

I fail to see how moving very fast is a bone strength boost, especially when talking about an honourable man in shardplate. The harder your bones are doesn't change how fast you can run (except in extreme weakness where it would slow you down from them breaking) yes you would be able to take more pressure but I don't think dalinars bones are in danger of snapping every time he runs so he has to run slower unless they get strengthened...

That is why I said that going faster was "arguable" bone strength. It's a big stretch (the more bone strength, the harder you can strike the ground).

If you are arguing that shallan has no information related to her you have not really read this thread or you are just plain ignoring things it was shallans hand the brushed the goblet and shallan who in shadesmar held the sphere of its soul and asked I to change (kinda!) the spren only seemed to grant access, that's access depended on either how true a statement it was or how well she knew herself.

I'm saying that the giving information about Shallan is like giving a physical description of a baby. It may be accurate to a point, but it doesn't tell you that much and it is going to change very quickly anyway.

EDIT: formatting

Edited December 19, 2011 by Tangletalon

[Captain.Kaulu]

I love the idea that the body parts might be the foci, but I think the focus being Oaths and Bonds is a lot more likely. For one thing, it goes very well with the Intent of the Honor Shard (assuming that all Surgebinding is of Honor, which I believe to be correct). It fits well for Kaladin, Dalinar, Shallan, and Szeth alike. And it seems to be possibly compatible with the idea that it shapes what they're trying to do with their magic, too.

What turns me off to the Body Focus list is actually some of the examples that have been given of these body parts featuring prominently in the different characters' use of magic. Certainly "Soul" seems to be tied to Jasnah and Shallan's, and Inhalation tied to Kaladin and Szeth's; but Szeth also uses Eyes, and Jasnah uses Inhalation and/or Exhalation, as well as her hands (which could be Bone, Flesh, Nails, Blood ...) and I think she's also said to close her Eyes to Soulcast as well. So it seems more likely to me that all of the body focus list can be used by all of the Orders of Surgebinding.

I do think Soul is an oddity in the Body Focus List, like Chaos commented a few times. This is especially interesting given that "Soul," in Mormon jargon, means "the whole person -- the whole body, the mind, the spirit, the emotions, all of it." (Not that the Cosmere is always compatible with Mormon theology, of course. But I thought that might give a clue to what "Soul" really means on this list ... and it doesn't.) My current theory is that "Soul" is a mistake on the list, much like Atium never really seemed equal to all the other Allomancy metals ... and it turned out not to be one of the sixteen base metals at all. Perhaps as the series progresses, we'll learn that a different (more specific) aspect of a person is actually the Third Body Focus.

Back to the original theory, trying to figure out exactly what role Spren play in Surgebinding ... it's evident that they're the Trigger, but it seems like they should be something more -- but [citation needed] didn't Brandon at one point confess that Stormlight is actually a bound form of Spren? Those of you who are more well-read in the Brandonthology than I, where did I get that idea from?

[Possibly should be in a different thread] Finally, as regards the "30 magic systems" thing, that makes me think that each of the 10 kinds of Surgebinding might be correlated to one kind of Voidbinding (which I assume is related to Odium), and correlated to one kind of Old Magic (which, by elimination, I've assumed for a while is related to Cultivation). Which opens up some very interesting ideas about why some people are more or less satisfied with the boon and curse that the Nightwatcher gives them -- perhaps it correlates to what Order of Surgebinding they're aligned towards (regardless of whether they are actually Surgebinders or not) ...

[Wispsy]

Don't forget there is the possibility of another shard being on roshar

[Meandering Monotreme]

Wispsy: there is another shard, or at least was. Honor, Cultivation, and one other. Odium came later.

Captain.Kaulu: how would the "Oaths and Bonds" be the focus? I'm not sure how that would work. And when does Szeth use eyes (although that one isn't a Radiant, so if he strays from the list then it's more in line with my theory than if Shallan does) and when does Jasnah use inhalation/exhalation? When she uses her hands, I had assumed that it was because she needed to touch the objects to soulcast them, and touch not a body focus.

[Arcanist Lupus]

Wispsy: there is another shard, or at least was. Honor, Cultivation, and one other. Odium came later.

Actually... It's kind of ambiguous right now. We don't know for certain that Odium isn't the one other.

[b4dave]

I change my idea that it was the oaths...what if the focus is the attributes listed in the Ars Arcanum for each of the essences? Shallan would therefore have the focus of creativity and truth (don't have my book with me at the moment so I may edit this when I get home) and Kaladin would be protection?

[Quantum Toast]

I change my idea that it was the oaths...what if the focus is the attributes listed in the Ars Arcanum for each of the essences? Shallan would therefore have the focus of creativity and truth (don't have my book with me at the moment so I may edit this when I get home) and Kaladin would be protection?

Makes sense to me. The attributes seem to be what determines which power you get, and unless I've misunderstood something that's what the focus is supposed to do.

[Meandering Monotreme]

Makes sense to me. The attributes seem to be what determines which power you get, and unless I've misunderstood something that's what the focus is supposed to do.

You are misunderstanding what a focus is. Focuses do not determine which power you get, they are what you channel the magic through to use it. So, for example, Allomancy is channeled through the metal, and Awakening is channeled through Commands.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Tangletalon

[discipleofhoid]

You are misunderstanding what a focus is. Focuses do not determine which power you get, they are what you channel the magic through to use it. So, for example, Allomancy is channeled through the metal, and Awakening is channeled through Commands.

And both the type of the metal and the commands determine how the power is manifested. In fact in every magic system where the focus has been identified, the focus determines how the power is manifested. It is not what gives the ability to use the power but it is what shapes how that power can be used. Aons, Metals, Commands - all are focuses and all shape how the power is manifested. They do act as a channel for the power but that channel shapes the final product.