[OB] Melishi hurt the Nightwatcher

[MountainKing]

The Nightwatch is damaged.

Quote

“Forgiveness.” The Nightwatcher’s tendrils dodged away from his face, like splayed fingers. She leaned back, pursing her lips. Perhaps it is possessions you wish, she said. Spheres, gemstones. Shards. A Blade that bleeds darkness and cannot be defeated. I can give it to you. “Please,” Dalinar said, drawing in a ragged breath. “Tell me. Can I … can I ever be forgiven?” It wasn’t what he’d intended to request. He couldn’t remember what he’d intended to request. The Nightwatcher curled around him, agitated. Forgiveness is no boon. What should I do to you. What should I give you? Speak it, human.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1078). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

OF COURSE NOT. I LET HER HOLD COURT HERE. The woman brushed her fingers through the Nightwatcher’s misty hair. IT HELPS HER UNDERSTAND YOU.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1078). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

She doesn't understand was forgiveness is, but she is a Bondsmith spren, she was bonded to an human yet she doesn't understand humanity. The only good reason that she doesn't understand humanity is she was damaged. One of the only way to damage a spren of her level is a Knight Radient breaking their oaths or a more powerful being hurting them. From what we know their was no more powerful being around that was willing to hurt her so she must have been bonded to a Bondsmith that broke his oaths.

At the time of the Last Desolation, there was only one bondsmith. The SIbling was retreating from Urithiru( we know this because the last messages of the radients were talked about both the prep with finishing the False Desolation and the Sibling leaving Urithiru.) and the Stormfather probably wasn't bonded to him because he felt betrayed by the Heralds leaving. Leaving only the NightWatcher

So Melishi must of done something to break his oaths. He is most know for entrapping Ba-Ado-Mishram and turning all the Parshendi into slaveform(no spren or no song), so what if when Melishi captured Ba-Ado-Misram he used his bondsmith powers to damage the Parshendi, so that they had to stop fighting, and couldn't try to retake Ba-Ado-Misram and start a new False Desolation. By stealing/destroying their ability to take forms and removing any chance that their chrildren can inherit the power via spiritweb. He secured his people fate for no more Desolation fought against the Parshendi because they lack the ability to take in voidspren, the fused, or work in an army. But in doing so he broke his oath of uniting instead of dividing. The Parshendi can never has close family bonds, have peace treaties or form connects (the spiritweb kind). He has divided them by making them from an well organized army to a listless group of poeple that can bearly think.

The NightWatcher didn't suffer complete damage like Sly or the dead spren we see in the books becuase Bondsmith spren are much more powerful than normal radiantspren.

PS: Can anybody think of a better title for this thread.

Edited February 12, 2018 by MountainKing
Fixed Title and spelling

[RShara she/her]

The Stormfather doesn't understand humanity, and we know that he was bonded before.  I think without the bond, their understanding fades.

The Stormfather was likely bonded between when the Heralds left and the Recreance.  We're talking thousands of years here, so if there had only been two Bondsmiths during that entire time, it would be both weird and mentioned.  Also, Honor was still alive, and I'm sure he would have required the Stormfather to be bonded.

As for the title, how about correcting the spelling?   Melishi, rather than Melshi, hurt instead of hurted, Nightwatcher instead of NIghtwatcher.  (I'm kidding, but you did ask!)

[MountainKing]

I don't think Honor would have the Stormfather bond with a bondsmith then because he had the Stormfather making new honorspren during that time.

And how do feel about theory that Melishi purposely destroyed the Parshendi's Identity and Connection while on the mission to seal Ba-Adi-Misram?

[RShara she/her]

I'm sure that in 2000 years or so, the Stormfather could be bonded and create some new honorspren.  What records survived that period state 3 Bondsmiths.  Those records are likely the latest ones, as they would be more likely to survive than earlier, pre-Aharietiam ones.  I find it highly unlikely that the Stormfather wasn't bonded between those two events.

And even if he weren't, he was bonded at some point, and had forgotten the nature of men.

Syl has definitely been bonded before, and she didn't know what lying, sarcasm, or death were until after she started bonding to Kaladin.

 

For Melishi, I don't think that it was intentional.  One of the epigraphs concerning Melishi specifically mentioned unintended consequences.  Breaking the minds of the parsh seems likely to be one of those unintended consequences, rather than a purposeful action.  The primary intent was to deprive them of voidlight.

[Naurock]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

The Stormfather doesn't understand humanity, and we know that he was bonded before.  I think without the bond, their understanding fades.

The Stormfather was likely bonded between when the Heralds left and the Recreance.  We're talking thousands of years here, so if there had only been two Bondsmiths during that entire time, it would be both weird and mentioned.  Also, Honor was still alive, and I'm sure he would have required the Stormfather to be bonded.

I don't think Honor would require a Bondsmith if there were no suitable budding Radiant. He was supposedly mad at the end, but he probably understands that Oaths require a suitable human (host?).

[RShara she/her]

1 minute ago, Naurock said:

I don't think Honor would require a Bondsmith if there were no suitable budding Radiant. He was supposedly mad at the end, but he probably understands that Oaths require a suitable human (host?).

I didn't say consecutively or constantly bonded But more often bonded than not, imo.

[MountainKing]

53 minutes ago, RShara said:

I'm sure that in 2000 years or so, the Stormfather could be bonded and create some new honorspren.  What records survived that period state 3 Bondsmiths.  Those records are likely the latest ones, as they would be more likely to survive than earlier, pre-Aharietiam ones.  I find it highly unlikely that the Stormfather wasn't bonded between those two events.

And even if he weren't, he was bonded at some point, and had forgotten the nature of men.

Syl has definitely been bonded before, and she didn't know what lying, sarcasm, or death were until after she started bonding to Kaladin.

 

For Melishi, I don't think that it was intentional.  One of the epigraphs concerning Melishi specifically mentioned unintended consequences.  Breaking the minds of the parsh seems likely to be one of those unintended consequences, rather than a purposeful action.  The primary intent was to deprive them of voidlight.

Sly loss her memory due to the damage sustain from crossing into the physical realm. The spren that Kaladin and co. meet in Shadesmar know of human nature and humanity in general.

Also epigraph mentioned someone warning them of unintended consequences, but Melishi ignoring them anyways.

Edited February 12, 2018 by MountainKing
Fixing Grammar

[The Thinking Herald he/him]

I really am forced to side with RShara shooting down theories this time.

Occam's Razor says that the simplest explanation is often the best one. Whilst we Sharders often don't abide by that law, we really should in this case.

From Oathbringer, we know that Melishi and Co. somehow did something to the Parsh/Voidbringers, and that whatever they did likely involved BAM in some way. They probably imprisoned her in Gavilar's gem or something, but that's a different discussion for a different time. However, what we don't know is whether or not the Nightwatcher was even a Bondsmith spren (though, don't get me wrong, it's likely), and even if we did, we don't know which spren Melishi was bonded to.

What I'm saying is that the theory makes a lot of assumptions that don't need to be made, especially given the information we already have.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

8 hours ago, MountainKing said:

She doesn't understand was forgiveness is, but she is a Bondsmith spren, she was bonded to an human yet she doesn't understand humanity. The only good reason that she doesn't understand humanity is she was damaged. One of the only way to damage a spren of her level is a Knight Radient breaking their oaths or a more powerful being hurting them. From what we know their was no more powerful being around that was willing to hurt her so she must have been bonded to a Bondsmith that broke his oaths.

Another possible explanation for the current state of the Nightwatcher comes from Hessi's Mythica:

Quote

Chemoarish, the Dustmother, has some of the most varied lore surrounding her. The wealth of it makes sorting lies from truths extremely difficult. I do believe she is not the Nightwatcher, contrary to what some stories claim.

The alternate explanation is this, the Nightwatcher, instead of being a splinter of Cultivation is in fact Chemoarish, a splinter of Odium, and Cultivation has been attempting to rehabilitate this Unmade during the 4,500 years since the last desolation. All of the Unmade seem to me to be powerful (possibly Cusicesh level) spren that predated the Shattering of Adonalsium. If the Unmade were all pre-existing spren that Odium Unmade into the hateful extension of their base drive then the Thrill would have been the incarnation of Competition, Re-shephir would have been the incarnation of fear of the dark, Ashtermarn would have been the incarnation of Indulgent Excess, Moleach would have been the incarnation of fear of death, and Chemoarish would have been the incarnation of Greed. Her attempts to sway Dalinar all focus on selfish aims and she is unable to understand the concept of forgiveness. Just as Re-shephir has an innate sympathy for the people that she is killing, the Nightwatcher is attempting to understand the people that come to her, and specifically want aspect of personal Greed drives them.

Personally, I don't see what benefit there would be to having a bondsmith bond the Nightwatcher. Would this bondsmith have the added ability to dole out boons to their followers and banes to their adversaries? Probably not, it seems like the boon/bane is a package deal and not on the whole a great package at all.

I can see the utility in bonding the Sibling, essentially the Duracell Battery for Metropolis Urithiru. Someone's gotta make sure that the sewer's don't back up and that the power is flowing and that the crops are growing. But I think a far more interesting 3rd bondsmith spren would be Bo-Ado-Mishram. I personally hope that the Nightwatcher isn't a bondsmith spren, I would love to see Taravangian bonded to BAM, especially because of his double agent agenda. What better knife to stick in Odium's back than one that comes from the triple crossing Taravangian? This also has the benefit that on the surface at least, Taravangian bonding to BAM would be palatable to both the KRs and Odium. His duplicity could be seen by both sides as an asset to both parties simultaneously, while he still works for his own utilitarian aims. That would be RAD.

[MountainKing]

9 hours ago, The Thinking Herald said:

I really am forced to side with RShara shooting down theories this time.

Occam's Razor says that the simplest explanation is often the best one. Whilst we Sharders often don't abide by that law, we really should in this case.

From Oathbringer, we know that Melishi and Co. somehow did something to the Parsh/Voidbringers, and that whatever they did likely involved BAM in some way. They probably imprisoned her in Gavilar's gem or something, but that's a different discussion for a different time. However, what we don't know is whether or not the Nightwatcher was even a Bondsmith spren (though, don't get me wrong, it's likely), and even if we did, we don't know which spren Melishi was bonded to.

 

Melishi was a Bondsmith. Bondsmith are masters of Connection, one of there primary powers is to create Connections. Melishi not understanding how people can be damage by sudden loss of Connections is unrealistic. Dalinar has been a Bondsmith for six months and while managing the coalition, learned how to listen to spren and make Connections between people and him.

Everytime Dalinar mentioned spren like the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher is always mentioned in the group. Stormfather is a Bondsmith Spren. The Sibling is the spren of Urithiru. So why if the other two spren in that category are related to the Knights Radiant, why wouldn't the Nightwatcher be connected to the Knights Radiant.

[RShara she/her]

10 hours ago, The Thinking Herald said:

I really am forced to side with RShara shooting down theories this time.

Rude.

[The Thinking Herald he/him]

11 hours ago, MountainKing said:

Melishi was a Bondsmith. Bondsmith are masters of Connection, one of there primary powers is to create Connections. Melishi not understanding how people can be damage by sudden loss of Connections is unrealistic. Dalinar has been a Bondsmith for six months and while managing the coalition, learned how to listen to spren and make Connections between people and him.

Everytime Dalinar mentioned spren like the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher is always mentioned in the group. Stormfather is a Bondsmith Spren. The Sibling is the spren of Urithiru. So why if the other two spren in that category are related to the Knights Radiant, why wouldn't the Nightwatcher be connected to the Knights Radiant.

9

You're missing my point. Though it's highly likely that Nightwatcher is a Bondsmith spren, we don't know that for certain, (she may just be mentioned in concert with Stormfather and Sibling as the "godspren", not as Bondsmith spren, and we don't have WoB confirming her relation) and thus we can't have too much confidence in resulting theories around the nature of her bond.

Besides, as already stated by RShara and others, we know that the Stormfather was slightly out of it before bonding Dalinar, so we don't need to come up with reasons for the Nightwatcher to not understand humanity. Even if she was bonded, the fading of the bond by itself would have caused her sentience to degrade, and it wouldn't be necessary for her mind to be broken by Melishi for her to not understand humanity.

And as for Melishi "not understanding the consequences of breaking Connection", I never said that he didn't understand those consequences in my post. Besides, to make an assumption, perhaps Melishi was not that much of an experienced Bondsmith, like Dalinar, and thus didn't understand much of what he was doing? It seems from the in-world Stormlight Archive that the scholar Radiants had more of an idea going on about the theory of messing with the Parsh and BAM than Melishi. From the quote "It would require a special prison. And Melishi." we could easily assume that the scholars knew the theory, not Melishi, else he himself would have "written" that part of the Archive. And so, just maybe, Melishi wasn't a "master of Connection", or someone that well versed in Realmatics.

Edited February 13, 2018 by The Thinking Herald

[The Thinking Herald he/him]

Sorry for the double post, but I couldn't edit my earlier one to include this.

11 hours ago, RShara said:

Rude.

The truth always hurts, doesn't it? (Now, now, I'm not that kind of a person.) But, for real, you do seem to have a practice of shutting down these types of threads. One might think that you took excitement in the ability to shoot down the dreams of us newbies.

[RShara she/her]

I just like correctness and accuracy and sharing information.

Also, I was joking with you.

[The Thinking Herald he/him]

Figured that. Decided to play along.