Honorspren VS Cryptics (SPOILERS)

[Neru he/him]

So, this is not a full fledged theory, more of a discussion about something I realized reading WoR.

Therefore, this is not going to have a lot of quotes and chapters and stuff, I just want a good discussion.

 

Ok, in the end of WoR Pattern tells Shallan that she doesn't have other oaths, just have to keep revealing truths.

Isn't that a really good reason for Honorspren to dislike cryptics?

 

Kaladin has 4 especific oaths to discover and follow, and if he doesn't, Syl dies and he can't be a KR.

But as long as Shallan keeps telling Pattern what she ate for breakfatst (yes, I'm exagerating), she'll keep lightweaving.

She can even use her powers to do anything she wants, while Kaladin can't be selfish with his powers.

 

Looking through the eyes of a Honorspren this would be pretty unfair. The pre-requisites needed for the bond and surgebinding.

I can also see this difference in words as the cryptics themselves being selfish, and feeding on the surgebinder.

 

Kaladin needs to adapt himself and his ways to Syl her filosophys.

Shallan only needs to feed Pattern with truths and lies.

 

I was specificaly biased in this post, to expose my theory and point of view, since I could see more of Syl not liking Cryptics than Cryptincs not liking Honorspren.

What do you guys think? Is this diference in oaths and words one of the main reasons Honorspren and Cryptics don't go along?

 

[Argent he/him]

I don't know if it's the main reason, but it's a big one. To the honorspren, the Cryptics are very much an anathema - they love lies, they seem to have no concept of right and wrong, they don't seem terribly concerned whether their Radiants are good (which to Syl would look dishonorable as well), and are overall opposites of everything the honorspren value. There might be even a bit of indignation tossed in there as well - as an honorspren Syl has to put her existence at the mercy of Kaladin and his ability to keep his oaths (which are pretty demanding, by the way); Pattern and the other Cryptics are in no such danger, or at least not to this extent. 

[Balefire]

I don't think Kaladin has to adjust himself to what Syl finds to be right; he only has to do what HE finds right. The thing that almost caused Syl to die was that Kaladin wasn't abiding by his own moral compass.

[Argent he/him]

A compromise then. I am not sure Syl would've come back if Kaladin had decided that his oath to Dalinar was the problematic one instead of the one to Moash. That would've pushed him more towards a Skybreaker's mentality, which Syl doesn't share.

[Guest Shash]

Seems like a reasonable point of contention. I dislike how Syl has a large part in defining what Honor is for Kaladin. Honor isn't an external thing - it's very personal. If things that are honorable to me don't sync with what an Honorspren deems as honorable, does that make me any less of an honorable person? I think not. Although, to be fair, I'm not the most honorable guy in town. A truly masculine man will recognize the importance of doing what is neccesary over doing what is honorable.

P.S. How long until someone makes a, "Which Order of the Knights Radiant Do You Belong In?" quiz?

[Argent he/him]

We need more information. The Orders are stereotypes, caricatures right now.

[Edgedancer he/him]

P.S. How long until someone makes a, "Which Order of the Knights Radiant Do You Belong In?" quiz?

I thought about that and I woudn´t be suprised if others did as well but until we don´t, at the very least, know all the ideals I think a quiz like that would be pointless and only based on Stereotypes as Argent pointed out.

 

[Chrono she/her]

I like parts of this theory, except for the fact that the Cryptics seem to be ignorant of morality. Shallan's revelation at the end of WoR to herself was emotionally very painful. These are the sort of truths and lies that Pattern needs for her to grow. Admitting to herself that she killed her mother because of who she was is going to make Shallan grow. Pattern comments multiple times that Shallan can't keep lying to herself; eventually, she will have to confront her past and change for the better. 

 

Now, are the Cryptics as noble and morality seeking as the honorspren? Probably not. But Pattern, in essence, forces Shallan to acknowledge parts of her life that she finds distasteful. He has to do this, otherwise presumably the bond will weaken and break. He also talks multiple times about how Shallan will kill him, but that he is resigned to his fate and is determined to learn as much as he can before his eventual death.

 

Now, the question is: if Kaladin "killed" Syl by going against what they thought was right, can Shallan "kill" Pattern by denying his existence and creating a massive lie for herself?

[Seloun]

Syl doesn't really dictate morality to Kaladin. It's probably important to note that whenever Kaladin has a 'real' ethical dilemma (e.g. the Parshendi Windrunner hypothetical) Syl can't answer them. It seems pretty clear that Syl is just reflecting Kaladin's sense of the ethics. Kaladin knows from his own moral code that e.g. assassinating Amaram for revenge is wrong; when he's talking about it he's trying to justify why it's okay to take that action despite knowing that it's wrong.

 

One of the big questions of the first book is if spren _cause_ what they're named for, or if they are _attracted_ by what they're named for. It seems pretty clear that it's the former; spren copy human observations. Syl is not enforcing an external morality on Kaladin; she's attracted to his abiding of his own morality. In doing so, she's effectively becoming a personification of his conscience.

 

The primary issue between Cryptics and Honorspren seem to be how much each values results versus means. Pattern likes 'true lies' - statements that aren't accurate, but led to good results, while Syl is unhappy whenever Kaladin seems dishonest, despite his intent. During the highstorm scene in WoK:

 

 

“It’ll be all right.”

“You shouldn’t lie.”

“Sometimes it’s all right to lie, Syl.”

“And this is one of those times?”

He blinked, trying to ignore his wounds, the pressure in his head, trying to clear his mind. He failed on all counts. “Yes,” he whispered.

“I think I understand.”

 

Kaladin has to explain to Syl that lying can be okay - it's not something she understands inherently. I think this is also an example of Syl reflecting Kaladin's morality rather than Syl imposing a sense of morality on Kaladin.

 

Both Pattern and Syl are however very focused on self-discovery; they're both big on Shallan and Kaladin not lying to themselves. It's just how they interact with the outside world that differs. Both have similar goals, but their methods are different - it's sort of a doctrinal conflict.

[Argent he/him]

@Chrono, well, she kind of did. She had forgotten all about Pattern until she progressed far enough into her studies with Jasnah that it was much more natural of her to think critically about things - including herself; which was one of the things that led her to acknowledge that she is lying to herself. 

Edited March 8, 2014 by Argent

[Edgedancer he/him]

To me, Pattern always seemed like a logic based entity, similar to a basic AI in fiction, at least until he started learning from Shallan. Abstract thinking of any kind is so bejond him that he can only classify it as a "lie." Concepts such as honor would most likely be lies for him too. From the viewpoint of a Cryptic this would make a Honorspren a Scrub that thinks their lie is superior to other lies.

While he is fascinated by lies he actually prefers metaphors, which shows that he dosen´t have any malicious intend, he is but a scholar that studys something completly new to him.

[Chrono she/her]

@Chrono, well, she kind of did. She had forgotten all about Pattern until she progressed far enough into her studies with Jasnah that it was much more natural of her to think critically about things - including herself; which was one of the things that led her to acknowledge that she is lying to herself. 

 

Good point, Argent. I didn't really think of that as "death", because Shallan was able to use her Soulcasting abilities before talking to Pattern again, but I guess it could make sense. Similar in the way to how Kaladin's sucking in Stormlight when the bridge fell could have killed Syl, Shallan Soucasting could have brought Pattern back. Or the Cryptics she saw were trying to get her to bring Pattern back.

 

[ArthurB he/him]

Syl doesn't really dictate morality to Kaladin. It's probably important to note that whenever Kaladin has a 'real' ethical dilemma (e.g. the Parshendi Windrunner hypothetical) Syl can't answer them. It seems pretty clear that Syl is just reflecting Kaladin's sense of the ethics. Kaladin knows from his own moral code that e.g. assassinating Amaram for revenge is wrong; when he's talking about it he's trying to justify why it's okay to take that action despite knowing that it's wrong.

One of the big questions of the first book is if spren _cause_ what they're named for, or if they are _attracted_ by what they're named for. It seems pretty clear that it's the former; spren copy human observations. Syl is not enforcing an external morality on Kaladin; she's attracted to his abiding of his own morality. In doing so, she's effectively becoming a personification of his conscience.

The primary issue between Cryptics and Honorspren seem to be how much each values results versus means. Pattern likes 'true lies' - statements that aren't accurate, but led to good results, while Syl is unhappy whenever Kaladin seems dishonest, despite his intent. During the highstorm scene in WoK:

Kaladin has to explain to Syl that lying can be okay - it's not something she understands inherently. I think this is also an example of Syl reflecting Kaladin's morality rather than Syl imposing a sense of morality on Kaladin.

Both Pattern and Syl are however very focused on self-discovery; they're both big on Shallan and Kaladin not lying to themselves. It's just how they interact with the outside world that differs. Both have similar goals, but their methods are different - it's sort of a doctrinal conflict.

I agree with this. Further, we have to remember that Pattern was attracted to Shallan as early as age 12. We have to assume that he knew what he was doing and that the saw something special in her (beyond just the broken soul). This idea of self-discovery might be the Cryptics own method of insuring that their bondmates (a working title) retain whatever quality made them worthy in the first place in the face of such incredible power. Not being able to deceive ones self about your own nature might be every bit as effective a control as swearing oaths, for the right sort of person. As Syl said, the Nahel bond was meant to act as a check against the investiture of Honor and presumably Cultivation. Their ideal bondmates are different, their functions are different, it makes sense that their means of balance would be different.

[Vortaan he/him]

Here's the thing though: we know that all the Cryptics currently bonded to Radiants died at the Recreance. So... a whole bunch of people decided to lie to themselves, and it coincidently lined up with a whole bunch of Windrunners betraying their oaths and killing their spren? Unless the speculation is that every Radiant betrayed the first oath, which opens up a whole different line of speculation...

[ArthurB he/him]

Here's the thing though: we know that all the Cryptics currently bonded to Radiants died at the Recreance. So... a whole bunch of people decided to lie to themselves, and it coincidently lined up with a whole bunch of Windrunners betraying their oaths and killing their spren? Unless the speculation is that every Radiant betrayed the first oath, which opens up a whole different line of speculation...

 

Actually, I think that is exactly what happened. Remember Dalinar's vision of the recreance in tWoK? All of the KR giving up their blades and plate. They gave up their duty. I think it was exactly that they have broken the first oath. That giving up was a testament to that betrayal.