[OB] Reread Discussion - Prologue

[Jofwu he/him]

So Tor has started up an Oathbringer reread. They're taking it slowly, at one chapter per week. Following along each week feels to me like a great way to slowly work through this book in detail. I'm planning to put up a thread each week on Reddit. I don't know if I'll have time to write down my own thoughts every week, but I did this time so I figured I would post it here as well! Would love to hear your thoughts on these points, or other things I didn't mention.

Prologue:

Feels weird reading about the Kholinar Palace now, knowing everything that will happen there. (Unmade taking over, Elhokar dying, part of it being destroyed)

I don't recall much further evidence as to who the people with Gavilar are. Amaram is mentioned of course, and the old man is surely Taravangian. My best guess is Restares? He seems to be in-the-know. The two women are a big question mark for me. Adrotagia is the only one I can think to put out there, but even she's a toss-up.

There's the question posed of why Gavilar offered this treaty. In TWoK Jasnah thinks it was for Shardblades. I can't remember what the general consensus was. Obviously it actually (primarily) had something to do with "bringing their gods back"... But I don't think I've seen a great explanation for how a treaty helps with that.

Huh... How did these listeners get Shards? I imagined they went into hiding before the end of the False Desolation and thus before the Recreance. If nothing else, it suggests their ancestors interacted with humans post-Recreance. It suggests a more colorful past than "they've been hiding in the wild all this time".

Gavilar's interpretation of the visions feels confusing to me, and makes me wonder if there's more going on. His solution to "unite them" is to bring the threat of Odium... But don't the visions make it pretty clear that Odium is coming one way or another? Maybe the final message of each vision can be adjusted by Stormfather, and he didn't say the same things to Gavilar. Gavilar clearly knows pretty much the entire story. I wonder how he learned it, because Dalinar's visions didn't give him enough for that. Gavilar must have been really busy putting all of this together over the last year... Or maybe he started digging into the past before his visions?

So he knows about Ba-Ado-Mishram and knows the Everstorm will undo things. He also seems to know exactly who the gods are. (It's plural, so not Odium, and he refers to the Unmade as a spren rather than one of their gods.) Given how much he seems to know, this isn't surprising.

On the initial read, Gavilar seemed like quite a monster for wanting their gods back. ("your people—the parshmen—were vibrant." ..."your people are as good as corpses.") He still is, of course, but now we know that the implication here is that ALL of the parshmen will be restored. The desire for war is appalling and everything that comes with the Everstorm is bad news... But he DOES want to restore the souls of millions of slaves across Roshar who did nothing wrong. This doesn't justify him or excuse his motivations, but it does make me wonder if he saw honor in this. (and dishonor in the "solution" of the ancient Radiants)

The black sphere... So it clearly glows with voidlight, but that doesn't say what it is. A trapped unmade gets thrown out a lot. But he has another one of these and he knows what Unmade are, more or less. I'm really skeptical that he has two captured Unmade. I'm also really skeptical that, even if he did, he would so casually hand one over to Eshonai. I've seen voidspren thrown out, but don't we see a captured stormspren (for stormform) in WoR? I don't think voidspren glow with voidlight when captured in a gem. My opinion would be that the sphere simply contains voidlight... or that it contains one of the Fused. Don't know how he would have either, but I like these explanations best.

And lastly, that darn rhythm-voice. During previews I had a theory that it was one of the Heralds (probably Nale or Kalak) trying to sabotage things. Could still be right? From what Ulim says to Venli, I don't think it was simple voidspren directing Klade. Ulim said that Eshonai was a traitor. That she had interfered with their plans. It's certainly suspicious that Venli was present, but... I dunno, I just don't see how that fits. They should want to JOIN Gavilar, no? Could be competing schemes among them, but that's a shot in the dark. I don't see how Odium himself could reach out to Klade at this point either. Still counting this a big mystery.

[Naurock]

It's been approx 1500 years since the Recreance right? That's a long time for them to perfect their patented "jump that lone shardbearer" technique to slowly acquire a few sets.

But I really like the prologue. It's a very interesting chapter. Have an upvote!

[Subvisual Haze]

I got the impression that most of the Listener's material possessions were scavenged from the ruins of Stormseat/Narak.  We still don't really know what insanity shattered that city and the plains, but I wouldn't be surprised if a couple Shardblades were left behind.

[Song she/her]

It makes me extra sad for Eshoni. After all she did to protect the world to die as her nightmare came true! She was such a vibrant character, and so innocent before all those years of war.

Androtagia is a good guess, could the other one be Aesudan?

[Ciridae]

I reckon the sphere just contains Voidlight. We know Gavilar was talking about Ba-Ado-Mishram when talking about his "crucial" spren,  and we also know that Ba-Ado-Mishram had the  ability to provide Voidlight. To me it seems like he discovered BAM somewhere under the palace, she is the source of his knowledge, she manipulated him, and she provided the Voidlight. I think he was about to free her before he was killed, or as soon as he had some Bondsmithy powers to do so, if that's what's required. That would have at least sparked another False Desolation, not necessarily the True Desolation, for which Taln had to break first. 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Ciridae

[Isilel]

On 3.2.2018 at 3:03 AM, Jofwu said:

 Obviously it actually (primarily) had something to do with "bringing their gods back"... But I don't think I've seen a great explanation for how a treaty helps with that.

Maybe Gavilar suspected that the newly sapient parshmen would need leaders with a bit more knowledge and experience, in addition to Bo-Ado-Mishram herself for the False Desolation to be sufficiently threatening to force nations to unite before the true Final Desolation of the visions arrived? I mean, from what we have seen of them, new singers wouldn't have been much of a danger without the leadership of the  sapient voidspren and the Fused and BAM wouldn't have had those to help her.

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Huh... How did these listeners get Shards? I imagined they went into hiding before the end of the False Desolation and thus before the Recreance. If nothing else, it suggests their ancestors interacted with humans post-Recreance. It suggests a more colorful past than "they've been hiding in the wild all this time".

Yep. It is also interesting that according to Venli, the Listeners Songs spoke of the Radiants in glowing terms, while being suitably wary of humans in general. There is also an interesting and mysterious epigraph in WoR about the execution by the Radiants of one of their members - Kazilah, who "fraternised with unholesome elements" or something along these lines. Could this have been connected in some way? Did some other Radiants secretly sympathise with/interact with the listeners and did they, perhaps, chose to break their oaths in such a way as to leave them shards for protection?

Another good question is where the listeners got their excellently made steel weapons, decorated with glyphs, on which Alethi also repeatedly commented. First of all, there is the issue of generations of  dullforms somehow retaining the knowledge of advanced smelting and metal-working technics, then there is the problem that the listeners had forgotten the very concept of writing - according to WoR, Venli invented a script for them after getting the idea from the Alethi!

Oh, and it couldn't have been from Stormseat - _that_ was allegedly destroyed during Aharietam, 4.5 millenia previously and steel just doesn't survive that long in a rainy climate. Even in Urithiru, where it very seldom rains and which was abandoned 2 millenia previously, most metal was rusted into unusability. Not to mention that according to Dalinar's visions, humans couldn't even produce steel weapons anymore, leave alone in such quantities, during Aharietam - they were reduced to primitive bronze ones.

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I wonder how he learned it, because Dalinar's visions didn't give him enough for that. Gavilar must have been really busy putting all of this together over the last year... Or maybe he started digging into the past before his visions?

On my just finished first re-read of SA, I have noticed that there are clear ret-cons of some things stated in WoK in the later volumes, particularly concerning Gavilar and Dalinar and the timing of their changes. In WoK, Jasnah only found out that Gavilar's last wish was a quote from the in-world WoK book and told Dalinar about it  several months prior to the start of the events, Gavilar only became less warlike and obssessed with the Codes during the last year of his life, Dalinar was seriously tempted to kill his brother _10_ years prior, rather than 29, etc.  I don't know if any of this stuff was corrected in the later editions, but there certainly are (were?) some discrepancies.

Anyway, in OB it is unclear when Gavilar's visions started - when he sent Dalinar off to fight after Adolin's birth, he already told his brother that he might have something that coulpd perhaps help against bloodthirst. Then, just before sending Dalinar to Rathalas for the second time, Gavilar said in his letter that he had some important revelations that he wanted to share with Dalinar. After that, of course, Dalinar wasn't up to being trusted with such confidences. So, I'd tentatively say that the most likely point of Gavilar becoming convinced that the visions were real was then. He may have been getting them for some time before that, of course - there is a hint that Dalinar's first vision may have been just before he met the Nightwatcher/Cultivation, but he remembered nothing about it. Gavilar also may have needed several years before he started to see and remember them clearly.

 

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 But he DOES want to restore the souls of millions of slaves across Roshar who did nothing wrong. This doesn't justify him or excuse his motivations, but it does make me wonder if he saw honor in this. (and dishonor in the "solution" of the ancient Radiants)

This seems likely and probably is going to be an important argument when/if an alliance with (some of) the new singers is going to be forged.

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And lastly, that darn rhythm-voice. During previews I had a theory that it was one of the Heralds (probably Nale or Kalak) trying to sabotage things. Could still be right?

Well, I firmly believe that Nale and his bonded highspren are behind it and I have told so to anybody who would listen, both here:

and on the tor.com re-read . I don't think that a spren of Odium is capable of speaking to normal Rosharan Rythms, since forms of power effectively replace them with the new Rythms, those belonging to him. He is external to Roshar, while Honor and Cultivation and their spren have become intrinsic to it.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Isilel