[OB] Did Ashyn have spren?

[+Ravioli]

Hi everyone, so I've had this idea rolling around my head for a little while.

I've been wondering if Ashyn had spren. In AU there is no mention of spren on Ashyn, but there is mention of *only* spren on Braize. We know that humans destroyed the planet with their Surges (which is a generic term for magic that they use) and that they have their floating cities. However, those Surges are not Surgebinding, which is accessed by creating a Nahel bond with a spren. So, that means that spren weren't necessary for them to use their Surges. We know that there are still some humans who live there in the floating cities, so the Surges must still be employed in some way.

So, do we think that spren are a constant for the entire Rosharan system, being that they do exist on Roshar and Braize, or that Ashyn was somehow sprenless? Personally, I think that Ashyn did have some, and that their Surges were close to fabrials (trapping their native spren to power their systems.) which made it easier for them to adapt to doing so on Roshar, but it's also feasible that it was something entirely different. (I'm thinking their bacteria were sprenlike and diseases alone can't make a city float) Anyone have any other ideas?

Edited February 1, 2018 by Ravioli

[Calderis he/him]

Firstly, mark your thread with [OB] Ravi, jeeze. 

I think spren are only on Roshar personally. 

I think the Spren of Braize are purely the Cognitive Shadows we know of. 

And unless Ashyn considers it's diseases magic granting rotspren... 

[Steeldancer he/him]

First off, I don't think so. In my head, I blame the spren on the constant highstorms, dragging the perpendicularity across Roshar, bringing the realms closer together. 

Second, Braize has "Cognitive Shadows," which is what they call Spren on Roshar, but I don't think that they are actually Spren. Based on OB spoilers, I think they are the cognitive aspects of the fused, and whatever poor fools were stuck there. 

Third, we know that Ashyn has a disease based magic system. I think the surges are expressed through that. The magic system MIGHT have changed, but I'm pretty much sure that the magic systems are different. I'm also sure I had a WoB on that... But maybe Calderis has it.

Sure enough, he came through. 

Quote

Shardbound [PENDING REVIEW]

Were the Surges used by humans, the ones that destroyed their previous home, the same as the ones that the Radiants are using.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, same basic principles. Magic system slightly different. Same basic principles.

source

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Steeldancer

[Master_Moridin he/him]

35 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Second, Braize has "Cognitive Shadows," which is what they call Spren on Roshar, but I don't think that they are actually Spren. Based on OB spoilers, I think they are the cognitive aspects of the fused, and whatever poor fools were stuck there. 

I was always under the impression that some of the spren mentioned in AU were voidspren.

On to the topic of the thread itself, I don't think Ashyn necessarily used spren.  The little we know of the system seems to me to be closer to how Aviar work, by bonding with a living creature.  Such a thing could still allow for a disease to grant great power, if the relative strength is dependent both on type of disease, and level of infection.  (So like, a super-virulent blood disease that's basically everywhere in the body)

I do think it's likely that the destruction of Ashyn and whatever's keeping the cities floating might be the result of an alternative implementation of the disease system though, as an accounting for the perceived extremeness of the effects.

[+Ravioli]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Firstly, mark your thread with [OB] Ravi, jeeze. 

I think spren are only on Roshar personally. 

I think the Spren of Braize are purely the Cognitive Shadows we know of. 

And unless Ashyn considers it's diseases magic granting rotspren... 

So you're saying that the bacteria would fit the general definition of spren but not the definition that we've come to see as spren? Or are you saying something different?

1 hour ago, Steeldancer said:

First off, I don't think so. In my head, I blame the spren on the constant highstorms, dragging the perpendicularity across Roshar, bringing the realms closer together. 

Second, Braize has "Cognitive Shadows," which is what they call Spren on Roshar, but I don't think that they are actually Spren. Based on OB spoilers, I think they are the cognitive aspects of the fused, and whatever poor fools were stuck there. 

Third, we know that Ashyn has a disease based magic system. I think the surges are expressed through that. The magic system MIGHT have changed, but I'm pretty much sure that the magic systems are different. I'm also sure I had a WoB on that... But maybe Calderis has it.

Sure enough, he came through. 

 

As to your third point, I don't think the diseases would be mutually exclusive from spren, but it also could be proof that there were none.

25 minutes ago, Master_Moridin said:

I was always under the impression that some of the spren mentioned in AU were voidspren.

On to the topic of the thread itself, I don't think Ashyn necessarily used spren.  The little we know of the system seems to me to be closer to how Aviar work, by bonding with a living creature.  Such a thing could still allow for a disease to grant great power, if the relative strength is dependent both on type of disease, and level of infection.  (So like, a super-virulent blood disease that's basically everywhere in the body)

I do think it's likely that the destruction of Ashyn and whatever's keeping the cities floating might be the result of an alternative implementation of the disease system though, as an accounting for the perceived extremeness of the effects.

Hmmm, yeah, we obviously need to get that story! I really do wonder why none of those diseases came with them to Roshar then...

[Calderis he/him]

@Ravioli I'm saying that Bacteria/viruses are physical entities, and as such wouldn't fit the Rosharan definition of spren (investiture that is alive). Of course, they probably aren't at a tech level to know that, so they may still call them spren. 

[+Ravioli]

20 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Ravioli I'm saying that Bacteria/viruses are physical entities, and as such wouldn't fit the Rosharan definition of spren (investiture that is alive). Of course, they probably aren't at a tech level to know that, so they may still call them spren. 

However, spren also have a physical presence. Invested bacteria and viruses seem to have some sort of sapience it seems in order to actively try to promote transference. 

[Weltall]

Bacteria and virii don't need sentience any more than the common cold needs sentience to 'know' that its symptoms are an excellent balance between infecting someone in a way that encourages its own progapagion and in not debilitating or killing its host before they've had a chance to spread the disease. The ones that are too virulent kill off hosts before they can be passed on and so don't make it. That disease on Ashyn provides an actual benefit to the sick person is helpful for both disease agent and sufferer but it doesn't require sentience on the part of the vector.

On the general question, spren existed on Roshar before the Shattering, there's no indication that this is the case on other worlds. Roshar has a good reason for this sort of thing to arise (the constant highstorms mean that the three Realms are in closer contact than normal) but those conditions don't hold (so far as we know) on Ashyn or Braize, so those worlds may not have spren independent of the Shards. The only spren we know of on Braize are the voidspren which are splinters of Odium, plus the Cognitive Shadows that are the Fused, who could be called spren by Rosharans because they don't have a separate term for it.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Weltall

[Strifelover]

2 hours ago, Weltall said:

The only spren we know of on Braize are the voidspren which are splinters of Odium, plus the Cognitive Shadows that are the Fused, who could be called spren by Rosharans because they don't have a separate term for it.

Yeah I think it's important to clarify exactly what we're talking about, and asking for here. When @Ravioli asks if there are Spren on Ashyn, do you mean sapient investiture in general? Technically, Seons are spren, there's a WOB that says the Rosharans would consider Shards and Adonalsium spren. On the other hand, Cognitive Shadows are different, but because most Rosharans aren't Cosmere-aware they'd call them spren too.

So I think you can look at the question in three ways:

- Does Ashyn have what Rosharans would call spren? Basically, any sapient investiture, cognitive shadow or probably anything that just seems weird and magical.

- Does Ashyn have the technical definition of a spren? Sapient investiture

- Does Ashyn have spren that act in the very specific way that they do on Roshar? Sapient investiture that bonds with people and grants them access to Surgebinding.

I'm thinking almost certainly yes for 1 and 2, most likely not for 3.

[Calderis he/him]

29 minutes ago, Strifelover said:

Does Ashyn have the technical definition of a spren? Sapient investiture

Where did Sapience enter into the question? Rosharans consider many things spren that aren't sapient, and even Splinters don't have sapience as a requirement. 

I would break it down as the following. 

Does Ashyn have things that Rosharans would consider spren? Almost certainly, because the term is entirely too vague. 

Does Ashyn have Splinters? Possibly, depending on the extent of Odium's influence there during the cataclysm. I personally doubt it. 

Does Ashyn have Nahel bond granting spren? Absolutely not. 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Calderis

[Strifelover]

19 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Where did Sapience enter into the question? Rosharans consider many things spren that aren't sapient, and even Splinters don't have sapience as a requirement. 

I would break it down as the following. 

Does Ashyn have things that Rosharans would consider spren? Almost certainly, because the term is entirely too vague. 

Does Ashyn have Splinters? Possibly, depending on the extent of Odium's influence there during the cataclysm. I personally doubt it. 

Does Ashyn have Nahel bond granting spren? Absolutely not. 

Sorry yeah you're right, I forgot that they also consider non-sapient investiture spren too. Carry on! 

Edit: I guess in hindsight I was just thinking about and focusing on the spren that grant access to magic, as compared to the spren that are sort or just...there. But either way a dumb distinction and you're right.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Strifelover