[OB] How did Kaladin call those windspren on Notum's ship?

[Yvainnie she/her]

8 hours ago, galendo said:

I think the answer to this question is that windspren are mostly in the Physical realm because the wind is mostly in the Physical realm.  Since the wind is always blowing, there's no reason for them to ever return to the Cognitive.

Contrast this to, say, flamespren.  Flamespren might pop into the Physical to hang out in a really hot fire, but then that fire burns out and they need to go back to the Cognitive.  But thanks to the laws of momentum and motion, the wind almost never really stops, just goes somewhere else. Thus windspren are constantly being "pulled" into the Physical by the ever-moving wind.

I suspect that the fact that they're basically always in the Physical is what allows them to use lashings.  They can affect the Physical more than other spren because they're much more in the Physical than other spren.

Now these are good questions.  Why are windspren indistinguishable from mindless honorspren?  Of the Orders we know, they're the only ones with this property.  Perhaps it's just because, for story purposes, it was important for Kaladin to mistake Syl for a windspren (and for Syl to mistake herself for a windspren) early in WoK.  But it's possible there's more going on here, too.

And what about Kaladin saying that sticking your shoe to the ground (or someting like that) is classic windspren joke. Does it means that they manipulate Surges? Surge od Adhesion. Other spren like flamespren does not have any Surge abilities.

[galendo]

14 hours ago, Yvainnie said:

Other spren like flamespren does not have any Surge abilities.

Do we know they don't?  Flamespren hang out in fires, so if they were using Division that would just make things burn a bit faster.  Not particularly noticeable or noteworthy, is it?  Plus there's the old question: "Do flamespren cause the flame?"  To which the answer just might be, yes.

[Yvainnie she/her]

8 hours ago, galendo said:

Do we know they don't?  Flamespren hang out in fires, so if they were using Division that would just make things burn a bit faster.  Not particularly noticeable or noteworthy, is it?  Plus there's the old question: "Do flamespren cause the flame?"  To which the answer just might be, yes.

Possible. But I guess we will have to wait and see in the next book or books unless flamespren are also some kind of proto-radiant spren.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Yvainnie

[Wyndlerunner he/him]

On 4/17/2018 at 1:36 AM, Yvainnie said:

Possible. But I guess we will have to wait and see in the next book or books unless flamespren are also some kind of proto-radiant spren.

Well, we don't have a description of Spark yet... It's highly possible that Spark resembles flamespren 

[Yvainnie she/her]

10 hours ago, Wyndlerunner said:

Well, we don't have a description of Spark yet... It's highly possible that Spark resembles flamespren 

I wonder what would other spren have as protospren. If creation spren resemble cryptics or not and what would be baby spren to inkspren and cultivationspren.

[Wandering Investor]

Another interesting tidbit about the windspren is that they're exposed to the physical Highstorm. Speculation, but it may be possible they pick up traces of stormlight, allowing for them to make small use of adhesion in their pranks. This would also lead into the other subspren being a part of the Radiants powers as well. Maybe all the base spren have the ability to help manipulate the surges, when they're connected to a Radiant that is pumping stormlight through them; think Kaladin creating a pressure wave to block the Hightstorm, and maybe the creationspren were assisting Shallan during her defense of Thaylen City. We never see any of this normally because subspren never have access to stormlight, except perhaps for the windspren that are exposed to Highstorms on a regular basis, which lets them stick things together.

[Yvainnie she/her]

5 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

Another interesting tidbit about the windspren is that they're exposed to the physical Highstorm. Speculation, but it may be possible they pick up traces of stormlight, allowing for them to make small use of adhesion in their pranks. This would also lead into the other subspren being a part of the Radiants powers as well. Maybe all the base spren have the ability to help manipulate the surges, when they're connected to a Radiant that is pumping stormlight through them; think Kaladin creating a pressure wave to block the Hightstorm, and maybe the creationspren were assisting Shallan during her defense of Thaylen City. We never see any of this normally because subspren never have access to stormlight, except perhaps for the windspren that are exposed to Highstorms on a regular basis, which lets them stick things together.

Interesting theory but can spren actually pick up stormlight by themselves? Radiant spren allow Radiant to use stormlight but they don’t use it themselves. Although we really don’t know because they use it as currency in Shadesmar so could it be connected?

[Wandering Investor]

12 minutes ago, Yvainnie said:

Interesting theory but can spren actually pick up stormlight by themselves? Radiant spren allow Radiant to use stormlight but they don’t use it themselves. Although we really don’t know because they use it as currency in Shadesmar so could it be connected?

Shallan can press stormlight into Pattern, so at least the higher spren can hold stormlight. So the question is can lesser spren hold stormlight, and can either groups of spren absorb stormlight be themselves, like from a highstorm, or only if a Radiant forces the stormlight into them. Can Kaladin force stormlight into Pattern, or is it due to Shallan's bond with Pattern.

Also just remembered that an Honorspren absorbed stormlight offered to her by Rock. 

[Yvainnie she/her]

2 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

Shallan can press stormlight into Pattern, so at least the higher spren can hold stormlight. So the question is can lesser spren hold stormlight, and can either groups of spren absorb stormlight be themselves, like from a highstorm, or only if a Radiant forces the stormlight into them. Can Kaladin force stormlight into Pattern, or is it due to Shallan's bond with Pattern.

Also just remembered that an Honorspren absorbed stormlight offered to her by Rock. 

very good point with Pattern.

Why did Honorspen take that stormlight and do not just suck on spheres I wonder.

[Wandering Investor]

1 minute ago, Yvainnie said:

Why did Honorspen take that stormlight and do not just suck on spheres I wonder.

The stormlight was contained in gems at the time.

[Yvainnie she/her]

26 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

The stormlight was contained in gems at the time.

And Rock offered them also contained stormlight in gems, didn’t he?

[Wandering Investor]

3 minutes ago, Yvainnie said:

And Rock offered them also contained stormlight in gems, didn’t he?

Sorry, meant to say spheres. He offered them bowls full of charged spheres. 

[dvoraen]

On 1/25/2018 at 9:46 PM, Subvisual Haze said:

I think he was drawing close to the spiritual realm as he came very close to speaking the 4th oath.  He is also able to hear Syl's thoughts directly in his mind.  That kind of connection independent of physical location (both Syl speaking directly into his thoughts and the windspren being drawn into the cognitive realm) seems to be a theme of the spiritual realm.

This.  More so, certain lines of thinking seem to correlate to certain spren.  Source: Listener preparations for assuming another form.  They get themselves in the proper mindset; I think we're seeing the exact same thing here, except Nahel bound individuals tend to think in ways that attract specific spren when it pertains to their Ideals.

 

To use one example (Shallan): creationspren are attracted by a sense of purpose.  Typically, that's been observed via the desire to express something.  In the case of Lightweaver Ideals, it's the expression of one's Self that aligns with this mindset.

 

If we really want to go down the rabbit hole a little, the question is: What mindset attracts windspren?  My very metaphorical answer to this is "freedom."  It's why I think the Fourth Ideal for the Windrunners will involve not forgetting those who choose to lay down their lives in a last stand; letting them have the freedom to choose their own end, if it comes to that (which also reiterates the "journey before destination" part of the First Ideal in some ways).

Edited April 21, 2018 by dvoraen

[Yvainnie she/her]

3 hours ago, dvoraen said:

If we really want to go down the rabbit hole a little, the question is: What mindset attracts windspren?  My very metaphorical answer to this is "freedom."  It's why I think the Fourth Ideal for the Windrunners will involve not forgetting those who choose to lay down their lives in a last stand; letting them have the freedom to choose their own end, if it comes to that (which also reiterates the "journey before destination" part of the First Ideal in some ways).

Freedom idea is too easy. Kaladin is afraid of Fourth Ideal. The more he gats close to it the more he is afraid of it. He was closest in that ship and when Adolin was injured he really didn’t want to say it but if it would be to choose freeedom to die Syl would not propabably think it will save Adolin.

[dvoraen]

1 hour ago, Yvainnie said:

Freedom idea is too easy. Kaladin is afraid of Fourth Ideal. The more he gats close to it the more he is afraid of it. He was closest in that ship and when Adolin was injured he really didn’t want to say it but if it would be to choose freeedom to die Syl would not propabably think it will save Adolin.

It wouldn't have saved Adolin regardless, because the Fourth Ideal wouldn't have caused Adolin to heal from his injuries.  Syl never really says anything about how it could save Adolin in that scene, only trying to nudge Kaladin to swear the Fourth since he's clearly on the verge of it.  Kaladin's the one who thinks there's a slim hope, but even then he only thinks of it as "an outpouring of power and strength."  And when he tried to swear it, he's thinking on each and every single person he tried to save and failed to do so.  The Fourth Ideal was a hope to protect them from being slaughtered by the six Fused that were there, when they were out of options and Stormlight, but it would not have been a miracle cure for every issue they were having.

[Yvainnie she/her]

2 hours ago, dvoraen said:

It wouldn't have saved Adolin regardless, because the Fourth Ideal wouldn't have caused Adolin to heal from his injuries.  Syl never really says anything about how it could save Adolin in that scene, only trying to nudge Kaladin to swear the Fourth since he's clearly on the verge of it.  Kaladin's the one who thinks there's a slim hope, but even then he only thinks of it as "an outpouring of power and strength."  And when he tried to swear it, he's thinking on each and every single person he tried to save and failed to do so.  The Fourth Ideal was a hope to protect them from being slaughtered by the six Fused that were there, when they were out of options and Stormlight, but it would not have been a miracle cure for every issue they were having.

That is true but still why would he be afraid? And that mindset he have on the ship when he was so close..... I think he needs to let go in some way but it is not freedom. I would say it is opposite, he needs to accept what happened and to let it go but not to be rid of responsibily just not to be burden with it to the point when he can move (Kholinar).

[dvoraen]

14 hours ago, Yvainnie said:

That is true but still why would he be afraid? And that mindset he have on the ship when he was so close..... I think he needs to let go in some way but it is not freedom. I would say it is opposite, he needs to accept what happened and to let it go but not to be rid of responsibily just not to be burden with it to the point when he can move (Kholinar).

Part of why I attribute windspren to the sentiment of freedom also ties into Jasnah's observations about that particular element (air and the wind) with respect to Soulcasting:

Quote

...Air was amorphous, even in concept. People thought of it as the sky, or a breath, or a gust of wind, or a storm, or just "the air."  It liked to be free, difficult to define.

-- Oathbringer, p1157hb

Edited April 22, 2018 by dvoraen

[Yvainnie she/her]

12 hours ago, dvoraen said:

Part of why I attribute windspren to the sentiment of freedom also ties into Jasnah's observations about that particular element (air and the wind) with respect to Soulcasting:

I admit that sounds like good possibility.

[Xtafa]

On 4/21/2018 at 5:58 AM, Yvainnie said:

very good point with Pattern.

Why did Honorspen take that stormlight and do not just suck on spheres I wonder.

Wouldn't be too honorable to be stealing peoples stormlight Rock offered it

[Wandering Investor]

On 4/21/2018 at 4:43 AM, dvoraen said:

If we really want to go down the rabbit hole a little, the question is: What mindset attracts windspren?  My very metaphorical answer to this is "freedom."  It's why I think the Fourth Ideal for the Windrunners will involve not forgetting those who choose to lay down their lives in a last stand; letting them have the freedom to choose their own end, if it comes to that (which also reiterates the "journey before destination" part of the First Ideal in some ways).

I don't think freedom is the right word. Instead, I think we can pull from the attributes associated with Jezrien, namely protecting and leadership. And tying it back to the first oath, part of being a leader is acknowledging the journeys of your followers, and respecting their destinations, something Kal isn't very good with. So I agree that the fourth oath will involve allowing people to choose their destinations and respecting that, aka letting them go.  

Also, windspren are attracting to wind, not air. Small difference, but important. They seem to be attracted to the physical action of a Windrunner riding the air, regardless of what their feeling at the time, so I can't attribute it to the sense of freedom it brings. 

[dvoraen]

5 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

I don't think freedom is the right word. Instead, I think we can pull from the attributes associated with Jezrien, namely protecting and leadership. And tying it back to the first oath, part of being a leader is acknowledging the journeys of your followers, and respecting their destinations, something Kal isn't very good with. So I agree that the fourth oath will involve allowing people to choose their destinations and respecting that, aka letting them go.  

Also, windspren are attracting to wind, not air. Small difference, but important. They seem to be attracted to the physical action of a Windrunner riding the air, regardless of what their feeling at the time, so I can't attribute it to the sense of freedom it brings. 

This (bolded) isn't always true, though.  They've been attracted to more than just the movement of the element of air.

Quote

Do it, Hobber, Lunamor thought, stepping forward. Drink it in. Make it yours. Claim it. ... Several windspren turned toward Hobber...  He stared, unblinking, at that sign of power. That sign of redemption.

-- Oathbringer, p389hb

Bolded emphasis mine.  I don't think this scene involves anything regarding protection or leadership, but rather Hobber regaining something he had lost.  Even then, it got the attention of the windspren despite the fact he was "just sitting there" trying to breathe in Stormlight.

Edited April 30, 2018 by dvoraen

[Wandering Investor]

1 hour ago, dvoraen said:

This (bolded) isn't always true, though.  They've been attracted to more than just the movement of the element of air.

Bolded emphasis mine.  I don't think this scene involves anything regarding protection or leadership, but rather Hobber regaining something he had lost.  Even then, it got the attention of the windspren despite the fact he was "just sitting there" trying to breathe in Stormlight.

I was clarifying the wind vs air point, but you're right its not the only thing they're attracted to. They're also attracted to the oaths a Windrunner takes, or maybe the mindset of the oaths. Hence the focus on Hobber, and Kaladin drawing them.