[OB] Unity, Shu-Keseg

[kirerelllim]

This is a theory thats more a half asleep concept than anything, but I wanted to get it out here and in thoughts before it faded away. I entirely expect this to be quickly torn apart, but here it is.

First off, the Spiritual Realm, unlike the Cognitive and much unlike the physical, is if I recall correctly mentioned somewhere as 'All times, all places' which is why some tapping of it can see the future etr. So, when it comes to Spirit Realm, space isn't really an option/issue.

Second, in Elantris, there is a religion set known as Shu-Keseg, Shu-Korath, and Shu-Dereth. These effectively represented by my understanding, Unity through understanding, control, and love respectively. Also by my understanding, Shu-Korath represents Dominion while Shu-Dereth represents Devotion.

Now here is my thought. Dalinar has mentioned 'vision' like happenings including before bonding with the Stormfather. He has mentioned a similar feel, yet not the same. He has heard the voice of someone telling him to Unite them, which also has been seen by his brother. Some of these have again not been sent by the Stormfather. Once he does bond with the storm father, he gains spiritual adhesion. What if the Unity isn't Honor or anything related to that but instead somehow a mixing of Dominion and Devotion, which are two big parts of dalinars personality with Dominion being the first part of his life mixed with Devotion to his brother? It would be interesting to see if that was a hint with Shu-Keseg being the 'origin' of the two other religions that represent the shards, its focus being entirely unity before split into two factions.

Another note that might be to this effect is it would make sense it being two shards fused together as that would look closer to Adonalsium, which would explain Odiums panicked words of 'We killed you!' as he probably hasn't seen Harmony before/yet so this would be his first time running into such a being.

Having written this out, it seems far less plausible I admit, still I'm curious to see others thoughts on it.

[Obvcop]

There are glimmers on your theory I quite like, especially the idea of dom/dev becoming relevant In the fight against odium and autonomy. The problem is there is slim to none evidence for any strong position one way or another when it comes to unite them. I really hope sanderson makes this phrase have something to do with uniting shards against odium. 

[+ElephantEarwax he/him]

That is a heck of a first post. Welcome to the shard. Have an upvote and a Cookie. 

For initiation would you say, "My life to yours, My Breath become yours."

I like your theory.

[Wandering Investor]

Brandon has confirmed that both Odium and Harmony are aware of each already. Additionally, Odium took steps to ensure Devotion and Dominion couldn't form sentience. While I don't think its impossible to see them included again in future stories, I doubt either will have an impact on SA. Still begs the question of what is talking to Dalinar..

[RShara she/her]

Welcome to the Shard!  That's a very interesting first theory! Unfortunately (as usual) I would have to disagree.  Dominion and Devotion are actually crammed into the Cognitive Realm on Sel.  Since the Cognitive Realm, unlike the Spiritual, does have a distinct geography (which is why magic is location dependent on Sel) they wouldn't be able to reach Dalinar on Roshar.

Additionally, as Investor said, since they are crammed in the Cognitive Realm, they're not able to form sentience.  They're currently a giant plasma storm in the Selish Cognitive Realm region.

Still, props for a theory that made people think about the Shards in a different way

[kirerelllim]

Are they really? Well then >< there goes that idea lol I figured I would be missing something, I had no idea the power was trapped on the cognitive realm, though I probably read it a bit ago and just missed it. Oh well, back to trying to figure out who and what is messing with Dalinars head.

 

Still it's too bad, it seemed to make more sense to have it be those two than the only other thought on the matter I had which was honor being reforged as unity. I don't see that as scaring odium considering his... 4 and 0 track record for 1v1ing shards.

P.s. thanks for all the positive reactions, unused to that as a general rule on the interwebs lol

 

Edit: on a side note, what steps did odium take to prevent sentience reforming? I wouldn't think putting in cognitive realm alone would do it considering spren for example

Edited January 24, 2018 by kirerelllim
Forgot to say something

[RShara she/her]

4 minutes ago, kirerelllim said:

Edit: on a side note, what steps did odium take to prevent sentience reforming? I wouldn't think putting in cognitive realm alone would do it considering spren for example

Being stuffed completely into the CR, with no access to the Spiritual, I think, is what prevents them from gaining sapience.

[Wandering Investor]

Sharders will happily tear your theories to pieces, but we do so positivley

56 minutes ago, kirerelllim said:

Edit: on a side note, what steps did odium take to prevent sentience reforming? I wouldn't think putting in cognitive realm alone would do it considering spren for example

This gets into stuff that isn't entirely revealed. Brandon stated that Odium took all of Devotion's and Domination's out of the spiritual realm and stuffed it in the cognitive realm. How does this prevent sentience? Not sure.

Its also implied, at least that's my interpretation, that Odium set the remains of the shards in conflict, possibly on purpose, which is where the pressure from the Dor comes into play. The two shards are stuffed together rather tightly. And while a unifying will might be able to reconcile a king dominating his subject while being devoted to their well being, the shards themselves are likely to reject each other, causing them to push the other away creating the tempest in the Cognitive realm. That's mostly conjecture though for now. The pressure of the Dor might also be caused by just the sheer amount of power stuffed into the cognitive realm, not because the shards are in conflict. 

We know that Odium took steps to prevent the Shards gaining sentience or anyone being able to ascend to them, but as for what these steps actually are, they might be the ones I listed or entirely unknown.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

I agree with @RShara that this highly unlikely, but it's a very interesting theory.

If you want to go down the tinfoil hat rabbit hole (which is highly improbable, but what the heck, it's also fun) I would suggest this highly unlikely scenario.

We know that people with Hemallurgy have been to Roshar from this WoB (spoilered below):

Spoiler

kalamitous_emoashions [PENDING REVIEW]

Have we seen any evidence of Hemalurgy on Roshar? And, as sort of an addendum, given the end of Oathbringer, was what happened to Jezrien Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There are certain cosmere philosophers that would count it. I would divide it as two separate things that are using similar fundamentals... I wouldn't call it myself, but there are people who would disagree with me in-world. Have we seen evidence? I would say no evidence that is easily-- easy to pick out.

kalamitous_emoashions [PENDING REVIEW]

But it's there?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, there are people with Hemalurgy who have been to Roshar. I'm pretty sure they've been on-screen.

source

We know that a certain Scadrian Worldhopper named after a type of cloth has been with Dalinar at very key junctures in the SLA. (OB Spoiler)

Spoiler

Felt was with Dalinar when he went to visit the Nightwatcher

and he was also at the Shattered Plains during the battle of Narak.

We know from Mistborn Era 2 that Sazed/Harmony has used hemalurgical spiked agents as active tools to push events in the direction he wants them to go. From a couple of WoBs we also know that Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium and that he has being doing something with Ruin's power to balance out the larger amount of Preservation innately in the people of Scadrial (both WoBs spoilered below):

Spoiler

Vastly more powerful

Quote

Questioner

Does Odium actually present a real threat to Harmony, because he-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

So Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium.

Questioner

Yeah. 

Brandon Sanderson

Elend was vastly more powerful than Vin. Who would win in a fight?

Questioner

Vin.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, there's your answer.

source

And he is doing something with Ruin's excess power...Hmm wonder what this could be..

Quote

rags

How is Harmony balanced when a part of Preservation's power is expended on human sentience? Isn't that what caused all the trouble to begin with?

Brandon Sanderson

Indeed. Hm... What could Sazed be doing with that extra power...

source

 

We also know that prior to his ascension Sazed was a Terris Keeper, storing the accumulated knowledge of all the different religions that the Terris Worldbringers studied, and we've seen these religions pop up in other parts of the Cosmere. Upon ascension, this special foreknowledge could have possibly made Sazed (the most powerful existant shard) extra cosmere aware.

So after the long preamble here is the super tinfoil hat theory (which I am sure won't survive 5 minutes on the shard):
Sazed, upon Ascension, realized that Odium was probably the biggest single threat to the Cosmere. With his understanding of Cosmere wide religion and his mental expansion, he was able to perceive things like that the combined powers of Dominion and Devotion were trapped in the Cognitive Realm on Sel, and began to hatch a plan to Unite them. Knowing that Honor was likewise splintered and that a large chunk of his investiture was actually a Spren capable of forming a bond with a human, he and his agents kept a look out for people that were likely to bond the largest piece of Honor still intact on Roshar. Once they found their guy (Dalinar), Felt spiked Dalinar and it's been Sazed whispering into his ear this whole time to Unite Them, with the goal that Dalinar will first take up some of the power of Honor, and then using his ability to merge all three realms (this might grant him access through the Spiritual Realm to the Cognitive Realm of Sel) Unite the splintered shards of Dominion and Devotion.

Wow, that is so out there, but your original post @kirerelllim was so interesting I had to think about it some...

Some immediate objections to this are:

1. Sazed's reply to Hoids letter in the OB epigraphs seem to imply that he is unaware of what is currently happening on Roshar
2. It's a pretty shaky speculative superstructure, and I think if Dalinar had an unusual bit of metal stuck in him that was the fulcrum for a major plot point, we would have heard about it by now.
3. If it was indeed Sazed talking to Dalinar all along, instead of "Unite Them" Dalinar probably would have heard "Unite Them, I think".
4. I can't think of any known mechanism accessing the Cognitive Realm of a different planets sub-astral, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just saying that it's something funky about how the spiritual realm isn't a real answer though.

Seriously fun first post @kirerelllim!

 

[RShara she/her]

The plasma storm is because their intents are fairly opposing, if I recall correctly.

[kirerelllim]

-laughs- and I thought my theory was a bit out there @hoiditthroughthegrapevine but it's certainly fun! 

I just wish I could figure out what's missing. Clearly there is something going on, Sanderson doesn't drop things like the vision like dreams for nothing and that someone is saying Unite them that's clearly not the stormfather.

On a side note, does anyone else find it strange that the storm father apparently gave the visions to gavalar first who was trying to bring back the voidbringers? What's with that?

As far as plasma storm that does make sense when ruin and preservation came into contact it did bad things

Edited January 24, 2018 by kirerelllim

[Wandering Investor]

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine First, great name. 

Back to business, Brandon has stated that forces in the cosmere are attempting to limit Harmony's knowledge and awareness. It doesn't stop your theory, but it makes it very unlikely for Harmony to know what's going on. Additionally, Mistborn era 2 spoiler

Spoiler

In one of the Mistborn: Bands of Mourning, Harmony shows a red mist surrounding the planet, and when asked what it was, Sazed responds with I don't know.

This indicates Harmony is likely pretty unknowledgable about the greater cosmere.

Plus I see the likelyhood of Dalinar traveling offworld to be pretty low.