[OB]The Hiatus is Over -- Oathbringer Reactions

[Alderant]

DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVE NOT READ OATHBRINGER. I PUT IT IN THE WRONG BOARD BY MISTAKE.

Spoiler

 

Hey all! It's been a while. I see that the board has blossomed in my absence.

I had these plans that I would read Oathbringer, I would get on the forums and post my thoughts and be extremely active like I was before. It was going to be great. Unfortunately, life--and the book itself--caused some problems for me that forced me into absentia for a while.

Now, many of you know that I'm was a Shalladin shipper. That has nothing to do with my reaction to Oathbringer, and why I went on hiatus, but I'll address my reaction to it later.

First:

Oathbringer was an emotionally devastating and hard to read book for me. It's a wonderful book and the story is fantastic. We got a lot of cosmere information drops in the book, which I was really excited about. I'm not saying that the book was bad by any means. However, considering Brandon's rather slow approach to character development in other books, I really thought he'd go some different directions in Oathbringer. He didn't, and that's fine. But I can't help but have a sour reaction when I think of Oathbringer, and I'll explain why.

The Pros:

As I said, Oathbringer was a wonderful book. Particularly, Dalinar had one of the coolest character arcs ever, and one of the most awesome moments in all of Brandon's books since Harmony's ascension in Hero of Ages. When I read the scene where Dalinar killed his wife, I legitimately wept for about half-an-hour. I also thought that Shallan's descent into an identity crisis was particularly poignant, and her resolution with Hoid was a very nice turning point. I liked how Adolin's arc ended up going. Even Kaladin's arc was appropriate, I thought.

Shalladin/Shadolin:

Believe it or not, I actually liked how this panned out in the book. Shadolin won--but I think considering Kaladin's arc in Oathbringer, I think that relationship would have been problematic. Kaladin was not emotionally available. His arc was what I call a downward arc--he started high, he'd accepted his oaths, and was feeling good about his place. Over the course of the book he fell from that height, and he fell hard. He was not at an emotional place to pursue a relationship, and in fact he faced a lot of trials beyond his ability.

Adolin, on the other hand, was emotionally available and willing to pursue Shallan. Her dithering aside, Adolin worked for the relationship and was even willing to step aside after noticing (late) that Shallan was interested in Kaladin. He worked for it and he got it. Good for him. I'm perfectly fine with the way it panned out, and since I'm a Shallan-fan first, I actually feel that with Kaladin's arc Shalladin would actually have been a disservice to her character.

Shallan's overall arc:

This though. I was greatly dissatisfied with her arc in Oathbringer. She had an arc that went down, down, and then dithered in the mud before suddenly having an "aha" moment right at the end, and suddenly everything was all right. I've been reading Mistborn (the original trilogy) recently, and this is a stark difference between Vin and Shallan--Even though Vin still had "aha" moments, she continued to struggle and work for her development, and as a result she felt authentic to me. Shallan in books 1 and 2 were this same way. However Shallan in book 3 did not really work through her problems--which is something that should have been absolutely essential to drawing herself out and being confident. Instead, what she had was an arc that resolved too quickly, I think. She went deep, nearly lost herself, and then was pulled out by Adolin, rather than developing a strong foundation to stand on. I really hope we see more of her internal conflicts in later books, because if that's the extent of her recovery I'm not going to be happy about it.

Dalinar:

I loved his arc. There were so many great moments in this book for him as he transitioned from Warlord to leader. The moment where he remembered his wife's death and he tried to fight off the despair by clinging to the Way of Kings will forever remain a powerful image in my mind of a man struggling to be a good man despite his past. And storm it Dalinar ASCENDED--albeit briefly. I wonder if we'll see more ramifications from that, because for a brief instance he became something new--he became Unity. That was the coolest moment since Harmony's ascension.

Why I left:

I got overwhelmed. After dealing with the emotional trauma of the book and the absolute dedication to reading it, I needed a break. I had to go read other things, get my mind out of the Stormlight Archive for a while. So I don't have any theories or ideas yet. I'll reread it after I finish Hero of Ages, probably. And then I'll be back with more ideas about how this all works.

Until then...thanks for reading. Have a cookie.

Spoiler

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2018 by Alderant
Hit the wrong button on the keyboard

[Landis963]

A pattern I've noticed with Stormlight books:  The book directly after a given character's flashback sequence will have that character regress in some fashion.  This is where Kaladin's arc in WoR came from, and it was where Shallan's arc came from in OB.  

[Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker]

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

Hey all! It's been a while. I see that the board has blossomed in my absence.

I had these plans that I would read Oathbringer, I would get on the forums and post my thoughts and be extremely active like I was before. It was going to be great. Unfortunately, life--and the book itself--caused some problems for me that forced me into absentia for a while.

Now, many of you know that I'm was a Shalladin shipper. That has nothing to do with my reaction to Oathbringer, and why I went on hiatus, but I'll address my reaction to it later.

First:

Oathbringer was an emotionally devastating and hard to read book for me. It's a wonderful book and the story is fantastic. We got a lot of cosmere information drops in the book, which I was really excited about. I'm not saying that the book was bad by any means. However, considering Brandon's rather slow approach to character development in other books, I really thought he'd go some different directions in Oathbringer. He didn't, and that's fine. But I can't help but have a sour reaction when I think of Oathbringer, and I'll explain why.

The Pros:

As I said, Oathbringer was a wonderful book. Particularly, Dalinar had one of the coolest character arcs ever, and one of the most awesome moments in all of Brandon's books since Harmony's ascension in Hero of Ages. When I read the scene where Dalinar killed his wife, I legitimately wept for about half-an-hour. I also thought that Shallan's descent into an identity crisis was particularly poignant, and her resolution with Hoid was a very nice turning point. I liked how Adolin's arc ended up going. Even Kaladin's arc was appropriate, I thought.

Shalladin/Shadolin:

Believe it or not, I actually liked how this panned out in the book. Shadolin won--but I think considering Kaladin's arc in Oathbringer, I think that relationship would have been problematic. Kaladin was not emotionally available. His arc was what I call a downward arc--he started high, he'd accepted his oaths, and was feeling good about his place. Over the course of the book he fell from that height, and he fell hard. He was not at an emotional place to pursue a relationship, and in fact he faced a lot of trials beyond his ability.

Adolin, on the other hand, was emotionally available and willing to pursue Shallan. Her dithering aside, Adolin worked for the relationship and was even willing to step aside after noticing (late) that Shallan was interested in Kaladin. He worked for it and he got it. Good for him. I'm perfectly fine with the way it panned out, and since I'm a Shallan-fan first, I actually feel that with Kaladin's arc Shalladin would actually have been a disservice to her character.

Shallan's overall arc:

This though. I was greatly dissatisfied with her arc in Oathbringer. She had an arc that went down, down, and then dithered in the mud before suddenly having an "aha" moment right at the end, and suddenly everything was all right. I've been reading Mistborn (the original trilogy) recently, and this is a stark difference between Vin and Shallan--Even though Vin still had "aha" moments, she continued to struggle and work for her development, and as a result she felt authentic to me. Shallan in books 1 and 2 were this same way. However Shallan in book 3 did not really work through her problems--which is something that should have been absolutely essential to drawing herself out and being confident. Instead, what she had was an arc that resolved too quickly, I think. She went deep, nearly lost herself, and then was pulled out by Adolin, rather than developing a strong foundation to stand on. I really hope we see more of her internal conflicts in later books, because if that's the extent of her recovery I'm not going to be happy about it.

Dalinar:

I loved his arc. There were so many great moments in this book for him as he transitioned from Warlord to leader. The moment where he remembered his wife's death and he tried to fight off the despair by clinging to the Way of Kings will forever remain a powerful image in my mind of a man struggling to be a good man despite his past. And storm it Dalinar ASCENDED--albeit briefly. I wonder if we'll see more ramifications from that, because for a brief instance he became something new--he became Unity. That was the coolest moment since Harmony's ascension.

Why I left:

I got overwhelmed. After dealing with the emotional trauma of the book and the absolute dedication to reading it, I needed a break. I had to go read other things, get my mind out of the Stormlight Archive for a while. So I don't have any theories or ideas yet. I'll reread it after I finish Hero of Ages, probably. And then I'll be back with more ideas about how this all works.

Until then...thanks for reading. Have a cookie.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Shouldn’t this go into the Oathbringer spoiler board?

[Alderant]

14 minutes ago, Lord Mistborn Skybreaker said:

Shouldn’t this go into the Oathbringer spoiler board?

You know...I could swear I put this in there but you're exactly right. That is definitely where it should be. Can I get an admin's help with that? I'm not sure if moving it is something I can do. I will spoiler....until it's moved. Thanks for catching that @Lord Mistborn Skybreaker

Edited January 22, 2018 by Alderant

[Alderant]

17 minutes ago, Landis963 said:

A pattern I've noticed with Stormlight books:  The book directly after a given character's flashback sequence will have that character regress in some fashion.  This is where Kaladin's arc in WoR came from, and it was where Shallan's arc came from in OB.

Eh...I could see that with Shallan but I wouldn't call Kaladin's arc in WoR a regression. He progresses quite a lot in that book, more so I would argue than even in WoK. OB for him is definitely a regression, however. And Shallan's arc in OB is largely progressive as well. What frustrated me was

Spoiler

the sudden "everything's okay now!" at the end.

 

[Landis963]

26 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Eh...I could see that with Shallan but I wouldn't call Kaladin's arc in WoR a regression. He progresses quite a lot in that book, more so I would argue than even in WoK. OB for him is definitely a regression, however. And Shallan's arc in OB is largely progressive as well. What frustrated me was

  Hide contents

the sudden "everything's okay now!" at the end.

 

I would, if only because Kaladin's issues in OB don't spring directly from his own mental state, but rather from the dilemma that he (and by extension all the Windrunners) find themselves in.  Kaladin in WoR, by contrast, allowed his depression and his hatred for lighteyes to kill his spren and stand aside while the king was murdered.  w/r/t Shallan, however: (OB spoilers)

Spoiler

Her mental state definitely regressed in OB, because before OB she had one personality (arguably two) and after OB she has three (arguably four).  And despite the "everything's OK now!" feeling, which I'll admit annoys me as well, there's a long way to go yet.  

 

[Alderant]

Just now, Landis963 said:

I would, if only because Kaladin's issues in OB don't spring directly from his own mental state, but rather from the dilemma that he (and by extension all the Windrunners) find themselves in.  Kaladin in WoR, by contrast, allowed his depression and his hatred for lighteyes to kill his spren and stand aside while the king was murdered.  w/r/t Shallan, however: (OB spoilers)

  Hide contents

Her mental state definitely regressed in OB, because before OB she had one personality (arguably two) and after OB she has three (arguably four).  And despite the "everything's OK now!" feeling, which I'll admit annoys me as well, there's a long way to go yet.  

 

Okay, that's fair. I see where you're coming from. Though I would argue that Kaladin's issues in OB do, in fact, stem from his own mental state, though more as a byproduct of self-delusion than his own internal flaws, which he largely got over in WoR. One edit though--Syl didn't die in WoR. She just...almost died, and he did end up saving the King despite his hatred.

And I agree on the Shallan point. Absolutely regressed. I just think that the nature of her arc was progressive, while Kal's was regressive.

[Calderis]

@Alderant I agree with almost everything you said.

I don't agree with your perception of the Shallan arc, not in that it didn't occur as you say, but in that I don't believe it's in any way resolved. 

She turned in the right direction and is starting to make progress, but it's not in any way over. 

[Alderant]

@Calderis I hope it's not over! It can't be over. The resolution just felt too forced to be authentic to me. So I guess...I really hope you're right?

[Steeldancer]

Yeah, it was a rough book emotionally. I loved it for that. 

Shallan... well, she wasn't just "everything's ok" at the end. Rather, she was "I'm an ok person". It's sort of the cosmere version of finding her own identity. No, she's not totally all right yet. I've predicted before that she will end her arc when she says her fifth oath, which I predict will be "I am Shallan Davar." 

Also, given that we are only 3 books in, i doubt we have ended the journey yet. Unless they die. 

Edited January 22, 2018 by Steeldancer

[Bort]

4 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

Yeah, it was a rough book emotionally. I loved it for that. 

Shallan... well, she wasn't just "everything's ok" at the end. Rather, she was "I'm an ok person". It's sort of the cosmere version of finding her own identity. No, she's not totally all right yet. I've predicted before that she will end her arc when she says her fifth oath, which I predict will be "I am Shallan Davar." 

Also, given that we are only 3 books in, i doubt we have ended the journey yet. Unless they die. 

I really like "I am Shallan Davar" as Shallan's fifth oath.

[maxal]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

I don't agree with your perception of the Shallan arc, not in that it didn't occur as you say, but in that I don't believe it's in any way resolved. 

I so want it to be over, realistic or not. Shallan playing at being Veil/Radiant was so painful to read for me (and boring ), I really, really, really want her identity issue to have resolved themselves during the time gap. I don't need to read it. I am fine with getting a few sentences to explain how she has progressed from OB to book 4, but I really, really, really do not want any other arc where this is a theme.

[Alderant]

@maxal

Believe it or not, I actually understand where you are coming from. Shallans my favorite character, but on my first read through I found myself lapsing on several of her scenes and would have to go back and relisten to them (I primarily read via audible).

1 hour ago, Bort said:

I really like "I am Shallan Davar" as Shallan's fifth oath.

I think there is a strong possibility of that being the next Truth, actually. Or possibly along the lines of “I am broken but not irredeemable.”

[Carla Bridge Four]

I don't think Kaladin's arc was a step back in OB, it is more like he's actually dealing face-to-face with an issue that has bothered him forever and has stopped him from saving more persons: his inability to accept that he cannot protect everybody. 

When I went through deep depression issues, my psy used to tell me "you cannot pour water from an empty well. if you want to take care of others, you've got to take care of yourself". 

I think that applies to Kaladin arc's in OB: he actually has to take care of himself in order of protecting others. But we need to see his struggle to actully and fully enjoy the moment in which he accepts he's gonna accept some defeats, take care of him and shine that plate!!

As for Shallan's arc... she's always been someone complicated for me. I dunno if I really like her character or hate it... but it did surprise me how deep she went in OB, so I guess I'll be even more surprised with anything she'll do next book. 

Journey before destination

[stonedshaman]

Despite the ending, Shallan is not fine.  Not by a breathe or a stormwind 

[Alderant]

7 hours ago, Carla Bridge Four said:

When I went through deep depression issues, my psy used to tell me "you cannot pour water from an empty well. if you want to take care of others, you've got to take care of yourself".

My psychiatrist told me something similar, lol.

7 hours ago, Carla Bridge Four said:

I don't think Kaladin's arc was a step back in OB, it is more like he's actually dealing face-to-face with an issue that has bothered him forever and has stopped him from saving more persons: his inability to accept that he cannot protect everybody.

...

I think that applies to Kaladin arc's in OB: he actually has to take care of himself in order of protecting others. But we need to see his struggle to actully and fully enjoy the moment in which he accepts he's gonna accept some defeats, take care of him and shine that plate!!

You know, it's funny you mention that because back in the days of pre-release Oathbringer, it was often speculated that there was going to be some conflict for Kal regarding his tendency to want to protect those he loves. And the thing about Kal is that he loves easily. I don't mean in a romantic sense, but when Kal finds someone that he appreciates or respects, he grows to care about them in an almost familial way.

And I don't necessary think his arc was a step back, but it was definitely a setback. He's never really had to face the idea that people he cares about are fighting one another--it's always been an "us" and "them" scenario for him. This time, he cared about both factions, and his inability to prevent the slaughter caused him to stall and ultimately resulted in the death of a man he had sworn to protect. That was psychologically damaging--it shattered the confidence that had begun to build within him at the beginning of the book and he was left nearly catatonic by the shock. His inability to cope with his failures is ultimately what stalled him in saying the fourth oath--he was not at a place where he was capable of saying it.

2 hours ago, stonedshaman said:

Despite the ending, Shallan is not fine.  Not by a breathe or a stormwind

The more I talk to others, the more that I'm inclined to agree with this. When I finished the book, I was left very dissatisfied because I thought that was it. But admittedly, I was rather overwhelmed by the book and focused on other elements of the plot, so I'm starting to see how this might actually have been a very clever set-up...

[maxal]

On 1/22/2018 at 8:04 PM, Alderant said:

@maxal

Believe it or not, I actually understand where you are coming from. Shallans my favorite character, but on my first read through I found myself lapsing on several of her scenes and would have to go back and relisten to them (I primarily read via audible).

I think there is a strong possibility of that being the next Truth, actually. Or possibly along the lines of “I am broken but not irredeemable.”

I am starting to think readers are making Shallan's issues considerably worst than they really are.

Brandon explained what he meant with Shallan's "personalities" and it wasn't DiD or any mental illness: he merely wanted to write a teenager confused about who she is, who she wants to be and who she thinks she needs to be. She puts on several front to face issues, depending on who she thinks is best to deal with the situation, but the fact she has magic pushed it much farther. As Brandon said, she has the ability to have others see a different her, she has the ability to hide, to put a different face onto the various versions of herself and, as such, she gets lost in the middle.

I however believe what Shallan has been doing is much more benign than most readers are making it out to be. I do think, by the end of OB, she is finally starting to come to grasp with who she is, who she wants to be and who she needs to be. This moment is illustrated by her choosing to marry Adolin, choosing to take back her scholarship with Jasnah and her facing her responsibilities. Of course, some readers do disagree, but I for one would be extremely surprised of this was an arc within the next book and if Shallan isn't done pretending to be other people unless there is a direct need such as spying or Ghostblood stuff.

[Dreamstorm]

20 minutes ago, maxal said:

Of course, some readers do disagree, but I for one would be extremely surprised of this was an arc within the next book and if Shallan isn't done pretending to be other people unless there is a direct need such as spying or Ghostblood stuff.

Well... considering Brandon said at a signing Shallan has a way to go, and told a beta reader she had a long road of recovery ahead of her, and Peter Ahlstrom is baffled that readers would think Shallan's mental state is supposed to feel resolved, I guess it's understandable that readers might think there's.... still a ways to go with this arc.  (I know you don't like reading it, so sorry about all the evidence which points to the fact it's not resolved!)

Quote

kari-no-sugata [PENDING REVIEW]

...In her final scene, she seems like she kind of summons her personas-- as if she's fully in control, and they're not coming by themselves anymore, is that correct?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No.

kari-no-sugata [PENDING REVIEW]

So, they still come and go as they want?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, she's much more in control, but still has a way to go.

kari-no-sugata [PENDING REVIEW]

Would Wit basically approve of what she's done?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He would give her a "that's a step forward, but you're not there yet."

link

Quote

I actually asked Brandon about this before the release. I was surprised after her talk with Hoid that she was still so fractured. (I do think that comes from me not having a true understanding of mental illness though, and I give props to Brandon for exploring it in SA.) He said she is able to control herself more, so she is improved by the end of the book, but she still has a long road of recovery ahead of her.

link

Quote

WetlanderNW 

Basically about how this issue is supposed to feel resolved,

I... don't get this. I don't think anyone is supposed to think the issue is resolved! I mean, I understand that there are some people who are tired of her fractured state and HOPE it's resolved so they don't have to read it any more, but I thought it was pretty clear that she's still got quite a ways to go.

[–]PeterAhlstrom

I agree. This clause in the question was a bit baffling to me.

link

 

[maxal]

48 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Well... considering Brandon said at a signing Shallan has a way to go, and told a beta reader she had a long road of recovery ahead of her, and Peter Ahlstrom is baffled that readers would think Shallan's mental state is supposed to feel resolved, I guess it's understandable that readers might think there's.... still a ways to go with this arc.  (I know you don't like reading it, so sorry about all the evidence which points to the fact it's not resolved!)

There is a one year gap in between the book. Shallan will not be where we left her, it would be illogical to find her still having the same issues, not having progress by one inch. The quote you posted from the beta reader was her personal opinion: Alice doesn't think it is over. This is purely what one reader believes: it does not mean it will happen as she says. There are lot of things many readers believed would most certainly happen which didn't.

So while I do not really believe it is completely, totally over, I do not expect it to be a major arc within the next book. I expect Shallan will have progressed, greatly, within the one year gap. I personally expect her "masks" will become more tools than escapism. 

The best analogy I can find is Kaladin's depression. After WoR, some readers said it was a bit much and the theme more or less over-powered the narrative. In OB, it was considerably toned down: it is still there, but it does not drive Kaladin's narrative as it did within OB. I expect more or less the same with Shallan: I expect she will still sometimes use her masks, but she will no longer pretend they are real. I expect she will be more comfortable with who she is, she will not run away from responsibilities and she will stop trying to evade the truths she has spoken. This is what I expect.

I also do not expect Shallan to get an arc as big within book 4 as she did in both WoR/OB. Also, Brandon confirmed there would be things happening during the one year gap, he warned the readers some may not like it, some might, but he knows there are readers who will not like having things happened behind closed doors. This could be one of those things, especially considering once Brandon plays too strongly on one theme, he tends to diminish it within the next book.

[GarrethGrey]

I know Brandon said things would happen during the one year gap (pretty obvious things would anyway) and that some might be disappointed, but I would be incredibly surprised if Shallans issues are resolved off page. I just can't see him putting so much time, effort and page space, making it Shallans whole entire arc in OB, and building up to it in the first 2 books, only to solve it off page, that just doesn't make sense. And why would Brandon say she has a long way to go if he's just going to solve everything during the one year gap? I personally found Shallans struggles in OB incredibly painful to read, but the fact that we readers and Shallan went through that, I want to actually see the the growth, the healing, not just open up book 4 and have her be all fine and dandy. 

53 minutes ago, maxal said:

The best analogy I can find is Kaladin's depression. After WoR, some readers said it was a bit much and the theme more or less over-powered the narrative. In OB, it was considerably toned down: it is still there, but it does not drive Kaladin's narrative as it did within OB. I expect more or less the same with Shallan: I expect she will still sometimes use her masks, but she will no longer pretend they are real. I expect she will be more comfortable with who she is, she will not run away from responsibilities and she will stop trying to evade the truths she has spoken. This is what I expect.

And as for Kaladin, he has shown consistent growth throughout the books, his depression has been clear from nearly the beginning of WOK, he had 2 books to work through things and he still struggles with it in OB. Shallans identity issues have built up slowly over 2 books and finally became an actual problem in OB. It sounds like you expect Shallan to be a mature, responsible, whole Shallan, that has zero identity issues, has divulged all her secrets and is no longer lying to herself or others, and be ready to speak her 5th truth at the beginning of book 4, I just don't see that happening. While I do think she will have made some progress, I doubt it's to the extent you describe. But who knows what will happen in the year gap, its pretty much all speculation at this point and Brandon can do a great many things with it.

[Dreamstorm]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

The quote you posted from the beta reader was her personal opinion: Alice doesn't think it is over. This is purely what one reader believes: it does not mean it will happen as she says. There are lot of things many readers believed would most certainly happen which didn't.

I'm not sure which beta quote you're referring to. One was relaying what Brandon himself told a beta. The other I quoted that to show the bafflement of Peter (Brandon's personal assistant so I consider his opinion to have more weight than your average reader) about how a reader could feel Shallan's mental health issues were supposed to feel resolved. So we have Brandon himself saying it's not resolved, Brandon telling a beta it's not resolved and Brandon's personal assistant saying it's not resolved. I'm not sure what else would be more convincing on the issue!

[maxal]

1 hour ago, GarrethGrey said:

I know Brandon said things would happen during the one year gap (pretty obvious things would anyway) and that some might be disappointed, but I would be incredibly surprised if Shallans issues are resolved off page. I just can't see him putting so much time, effort and page space, making it Shallans whole entire arc in OB, and building up to it in the first 2 books, only to solve it off page, that just doesn't make sense. And why would Brandon say she has a long way to go if he's just going to solve everything during the one year gap? I personally found Shallans struggles in OB incredibly painful to read, but the fact that we readers and Shallan went through that, I want to actually see the the growth, the healing, not just open up book 4 and have her be all fine and dandy. 

And as for Kaladin, he has shown consistent growth throughout the books, his depression has been clear from nearly the beginning of WOK, he had 2 books to work through things and he still struggles with it in OB. Shallans identity issues have built up slowly over 2 books and finally became an actual problem in OB. It sounds like you expect Shallan to be a mature, responsible, whole Shallan, that has zero identity issues, has divulged all her secrets and is no longer lying to herself or others, and be ready to speak her 5th truth at the beginning of book 4, I just don't see that happening. While I do think she will have made some progress, I doubt it's to the extent you describe. But who knows what will happen in the year gap, its pretty much all speculation at this point and Brandon can do a great many things with it.

You are exaggerating my words: I never said anything about Shallan having told all of her secret neither did I say anything about her saying the fifth oath off-screen nor early in book 4. I believe I have said I expect her to have progressed during the time gap, I believe I have said I did not expect her "personalities" to be as big of an issue within book 4 because she will have invariably moved forward during the time gap. My feelings are some readers are thinking she will remain an non-functional bundle of tears for the next year, never moving forward, when the ending of OB suggested the opposite: Shallan is getting better. While I did say I wouldn't be surprised if Veil/Radiants are no more than occasional disguises by the time we reach book 4, I also said it may not happen this way. 

Brandon did say to expect things some readers might find important to happen off-screen. Hence, just because he built-up Shallan's issues with who she wants to be within book 3 does not mean he will pick it up right where he left it in book 4. Logically, Shallan will have moved forward. She will have spent a full year being Highlady Shallan Kholin: she will not be exactly the same, she will have grown and I for one hope this growth will be positive because her character needs a positive arc.

Now, I am sure there will much left to say about Shallan within book 4, but I doubt it will be a recapitulation of OB where she goes through exactly the same ordeal, asking the same questions and struggling with the same issues. They will have changed, all of them.

21 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I'm not sure which beta quote you're referring to. One was relaying what Brandon himself told a beta. The other I quoted that to show the bafflement of Peter (Brandon's personal assistant so I consider his opinion to have more weight than your average reader) about how a reader could feel Shallan's mental health issues were supposed to feel resolved. So we have Brandon himself saying it's not resolved, Brandon telling a beta it's not resolved and Brandon's personal assistant saying it's not resolved. I'm not sure what else would be more convincing on the issue!

WetlanderNW, the individual you quoted, is a beta reader named Alice. This is pretty common knowledge. Neither she nor Peter are privy to Brandon's future plans: just because one person thinks it does not mean it will make the future books. There are a lot of things a lot of beta readers thoughts which didn't make into the book or happened completely differently. This is not a false-proof argument.

Brandon might have said it is not resolved now, at the end of OB, he never said anything about how resolved it will be a year later. Others are extrapolating book 4 will take back the same narrative, I think not. I think this arc was very over-powering in OB which makes me expect to read considerably less of it within book 4: Brandon does not write the same narratives twice. He put a lot of emphasis on Shallan in OB, I expect he will put less on her in book 4: the year gap allows him to have part of her arc happen off-line.

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

WetlanderNW, the individual you quoted, is a beta reader named Alice. This is pretty common knowledge. Neither she nor Peter are privy to Brandon's future plans: just because one person thinks it does not mean it will make the future books. There are a lot of things a lot of beta readers thoughts which didn't make into the book or happened completely differently. This is not a false-proof argument.

You’re latching onto something which makes no part of my argument because you think that’s something which can be attacked. It doesn’t matter what Wetlander/Alice thinks in the quotes I gave. What I was pointing to is what Peter thinks, and I guarantee you he knows more than you or I or anyone on this board about Brandon’s future plans given he’s an alpha and a beta reader and is intimately involved with everything Stormlight. But it really doesn’t matter as that was my third set of proof that Shallan’s mental state is still an issue. The other two quotes came from Brandon himself. You’re right; Brandon could do anything in the year break. But it seems rather implausible he will have Shallan all healed up given what he’s told us about her current state. I think that’s something you hope will happen, and that’s fine, but that doesn’t make it more likely to happen. 

[maxal]

16 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

You’re latching onto something which makes no part of my argument because you think that’s something which can be attacked. It doesn’t matter what Wetlander/Alice thinks in the quotes I gave. What I was pointing to is what Peter thinks, and I guarantee you he knows more than you or I or anyone on this board about Brandon’s future plans given he’s an alpha and a beta reader and is intimately involved with everything Stormlight. But it really doesn’t matter as that was my third set of proof that Shallan’s mental state is still an issue. The other two quotes came from Brandon himself. You’re right; Brandon could do anything in the year break. But it seems rather implausible he will have Shallan all healed up given what he’s told us about her current state. I think that’s something you hope will happen, and that’s fine, but that doesn’t make it more likely to happen. 

I wrote my response because I felt it was insinuated the fact the question was asked by a beta reader gives it more credence. I also responded with respect to Peter's answer: Peter doesn't know Brandon's future plans either. I believe he commented on not being aware of Brandon's plans until Brandon is ready to share them which I doubt he has for the future book he still has to plan. I thus disagree we can take one random question, which isn't offering much in terms of answer, just two people expressing their opinion as a false-proof argument of a readers speculative theory.

There are things alpha readers publicly said which made readers think certain elements would happen within OB and turns out they didn't. Alpha, beta readers are not omniscient: they only know what the author is telling them and it often is not much else than what we know. Often, they just speak of how they feel about a given arc, how they liked it. At this point in time, all readers know as much as any beta readers. There are not such things as "Words of Alpha readers": they often don't know any more than we do. I thus wouldn't go onto the assumption Peter's short response is an indication of future plot arcs. Maybe it is, but maybe it is not. In fact, I would argue it most probably is not, I would argue he's just saying what he thinks and it happens to be inline with what the beta reader thinks, but YMMV.

As for myself, I maintain my point: there is a one year gap. Given how Shallan's arc has progressed, I would sincerely, seriously doubt she will be within the same state early in book 4 as she were late in OB. Some are suggesting this will be the case or Shallan will just worsen, I am strongly disagreeing with this. I am thinking Shallan will be in a much better healthier state. Do I believe everything will be solved? Nope, but I believe enough will be solved for this arc not to be a major one within book 4, just as Kaladin's depression was a minor arc in OB. I do not expect Shallan's masks to be as active within book 4 as they were within OB. I expect them to have regressed to being mere tools. Am I right? I don't know, but I do think some readers are over-emphasizing Shallan's issues and they are pushing for her story arc to go down one way. I am pushing it to go the other way 

[wotbibliophile]

I'm in the camp that Shallan may make some progress in the year gab, but events in book 4 will bring on another break down. (Sort of like Kaladin going catatonic in Kholinar).