Darkness was right

[Gagylpus he/him]

SPOILERS!!! (Sorry forgot to put it in the title)

 

So Nalan/Darkness went around killing nascent Surgebinders, saying that their existence threatened the onset of a new Desolation. And in a way, he was right.

 

Seeing Kaladin Surgebinding was one of the factors that pushed Eshonai and the other listeners over the edge, resulting in their decision to take up stormform. With their mass transformation to stormform, Odium was able to use the listeners to start the Everstorm.

 

So... chalk one up to extreme prejudice and irrational dogmatism, I guess?

Edited March 6, 2014 by Gagylpus

[Aminar]

The desolation was going to happen anyway. The Spren sensed it 6 plus years ago and started sending over Spren(Somewhat). Eshonai's sister seems to have been working toward this for some time.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Aminar

[Mr Horrible]

With that logic Darkness could also just kill the Listeners so that Stormform would never be developed. I think there's not a clear enough link there to justify the killing, especially when it didn't change anything anyway.

[Crysanja]

i agree, the Sister of Eshonai would have advanced to Stormform eventualy, even if they made peace.

[HydrogenAlpha he/him]

He's right in the "let's kill all toddlers, because if the grow up they could commit a crime"-way. I don't think that a good reason to justify murder, but hey.. everyone has their own twisted opinions.

[Vortaan he/him]

Cause and effect is backwards, though. The spren sense a Desolation, so they start coming over to help mankind. Whether Darkness kills Surgebinders or not, Odium is coming, and all he's really doing is limiting those who could fight back. To use an example from another series, it's like gentling men who can channel in WoT. Come the Last Battle, you're going to need every superpower you can get, so cutting off half of them from their power seems... ill advised.

[Chlehrma]

With that logic Darkness could also just kill the Listeners so that Stormform would never be developed. I think there's not a clear enough link there to justify the killing, especially when it didn't change anything anyway.

Darkness follows the Law. By this I mean that he only kills surgebinders who are criminals. Lift, Ym interludes are very important in demonstrating his mindset. If someone made it illegal to be a parshmen, then maybe he might kill parshmen--since they do not surgebind, this is highly unlikely.

Regardless, I think we have a chicken-egg issue. Does surgebinding bring the desolation or is it the intelligent spren moving into the world and forming bonds? Do the intelligent spren coving into the physical world cause the Unmade to stir or is it the actions of the Unmade that prompt the spren to return?

Edited March 6, 2014 by Chlehrma

[Gagylpus he/him]

Okay, I see I should have clarified a bit. (Sometimes I go for unnecessary subtlety...) What I mean is that the chain of events is slightly ironic, in that Darkness and those who follow him could easily see it as justification for their beliefs. I was not implying that Darkness was actually right in thinking that if he successfully killed all the Surgebinders, the Desolation would not have begun.

 

Obviously, even if no Surgebinders came, Taln would still have finally given up under the torture, and Odium would still have begun to move. Venli was obviously already under his influence, so stormform would have arrived nonetheless.

 

Really, its kind of interesting what the different groups think about the impending disaster. Nalan kills Surgebinders because he thought it would prevent Voidbringers from coming back. The Sons of Honor and the Envisagers were trying to bring back Voidbringers because they thought that would bring Surgebinders and Heralds back. Besides our heroes, it seems like Taravangian is the only one with a reasonable position on this subject - he recognised that the Desolation was inevitable.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Gagylpus

[AyeJay she/her]

Darkness follows the Law. By this I mean that he only kills surgebinders who are criminals.

Shallan is screwed.

Patricide

Matricide

Theft

Destruction of personal property

Impersonating Royalty

Edited March 7, 2014 by AyeJay

[happyman he/him]

Shallan is screwed.

Patricide

Matricide

Theft

Destruction of personal property

Impersonating Royalty

 

Shallan is also trained and allied with other Surgebinders.  But yes, as far as Darkness is concerned, she's such fair game, it isn't even funny.  Catching and keeping her, on the other hand, is a different problem.

[Argent he/him]

I don't know, something about him still doesn't click. How could the Surgebinders bring the Desolations back? Even if we assume that he can see the future (I am fairly confident he can't, otherwise he would've caught Lift much more easily), I don't buy that he saw a situation where the Parshendi saw Kaladin Surgebind and that prompted them on the path that would lead to the Everstorm. And even if this were true, why would he go and hunt Surgebinders around the world, but not in the Alethi warcamps? No, it has to be something else.

 

It has to be something all Surgebinders share. My best bet is the spren bond. For a very long time Shadesmar and the physical realm were separate, with no Nahel spren crossing over, and no spren forming bonds (as far as we can tell). In recent years though, more and more spren are crossing over and bonding with humans - would this make it easier for other spren to cross over too? Voidspren, perhaps? Taravangian, in the Diagram, seems to suggests that if a listener were to obtain the power of the stormform, it would form a bridge - presumably for other voidspren. Maybe it's something similar to this. 

 

Then, on the other hand, Taravangian, in his moments of brilliance, thought that "the Desolation needs no usher." This implies that it will come, on schedule, regardless of what people do. This is very much in contrast with what Nalan believes, so one of them is likely wrong. And in this case I am inclined to side against the Herald, as his mind is kind of broken and could not only be misinterpreting things, but interpreting them in a way opposite of their true meaning...

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

If surgebinders are actually responsible for the voidbringer's return, then I'm sure it must have something to do with the Oathpact- you get your champions, I get mine. Taravangian's thoughts are interesting however.

[AyeJay she/her]

I think the logic might be along the lines of do rot spren cause rot or are they simply attracted to it kind of thing. Potential Radiants pop up more often around desolations so someone decided that they must cause them. 

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

Nalan is a Herald, however. If anyone should know what they're talking about, it's him.

[Necromancer he/him]

He's right in the "let's kill all toddlers, because if the grow up they could commit a crime"-way. I don't think that a good reason to justify murder, but hey.. everyone has their own twisted opinions.

While it most certainly doesn't justify murder, you really downplayed the philosophy behind it. It isn't like how you said it at all. It's more like (to stick with the same idea):

Let's kill all the supernaturally strong or those with potential to be supernaturally strong who are showing criminal behavior in order to secure safety for the masses.

Anyway, I agree it isn't justification, but you made it sound more dark and simplified than it is.

Edit: Typo

Edited March 9, 2014 by Necromancer

[rjl]

The heralds are insane. Nalan is horribly wrong, IMO anyway.

He's doing this despite the fact that Dalinarvis already seeing the visions that say the desolation is coming.

Per Jasnah the spren come in large numbers prior to a desolation to help men prepare , I think Nalan has the causal link backwards, due to his insanity.

[AerionBFII he/him]

Don't know if he's right but i wouldn't disagree with him   

[Argent he/him]

Considering that the Radiants are the result of some of the spren deciding to imitate what Honor did with his Heralds, it's probably safe to assume that there was a period in history during which the Heralds existed, but the Radiants did not. If Nalan is right, how does he explain the Desolations during this period? Or were there no Desolations until the Radiants showed up? Or do they merely accelerate the rate at which the Desolations come? The latter could be on the right track - the Radiants have been missing for a very long time, and the time between the last Desolation and the Last Desolation is also much longer than the usual. 

Edited March 9, 2014 by Argent

[AerionBFII he/him]

I thought the Heralds went solo then the Radients came and were guided by the Heralds until the last desolation 4500 years before the start of the series.  (Broken Oathpact)

 

Then the Radients stuck around for a while until they eventually/inevitably broke their oaths and scattered. (Day of Recreance)

 

Then a few centuries later the Hierocracy of the church took place but was beaten and broken into the devotaries. 

[Numb]

Do we even know what the Desolations are? If it's just parshmen wouldn't that mean that after a desolation then the problems are gone since they would have killed all the parshmen? There's someone big we still haven't been told I think.

[name_here]

According to Jasnah, spren started coming back and giving people the ability to surgebind in reaction to an impending Desolation, so it seems this is a case of correlation != causation. I'd say that once voidspren became avaliable it was only a matter of time before someone tried to employ Stormform. Sure, the intense pressure of the war with the Alethi and hostile Surgebinding meant they were easy for Stormform-Eshonai to convince to try a mass transformation, but in peacetime the first Stormform would just need to be a bit more subtle and clever.

[EvilKetchupCow he/him]

What about the 10 fools

[ranstang94]

well we know that this desolation is different from all the others because of Jasnah's reaction in the epilogue. also we can't really figure out Darkness's motives until we know why the KR killed their spren. It just isn't possible for a mass of people who exemplify Ideals like the KR did to ALL betray oaths, that they have obviously followed the better part of their lives, at the same time. Think how hard it would be to kill your best friend. How hard it would be for Kal to kill Syl, intentionally and permanently... there is way more here than we know.

[Cayden]

One thing just occurred to me that might actually provide some sense to what the Heralds believe, and possibly what caused the Recreance.

 

What if the Recreance was a plan thought up by the Heralds and the Knights Radiants to stop all intelligent spren from coming to Roshar... Including those which belong to Odium?

 

Without the Voidspren there can be no desolations, and it seems like a fairly good guess that the voidspren cannot come before normal intelligent spren return to Roshar. If this is the case then that would explain the Heralds reactions.

 

What I find interesting and I am beginning to wonder about is whether Galivar received visions from Honor or from Odium. It sounds too convinient for everything to start happening because of him. Its almost as if the moment that the Alethi came in contact with the Parshendi a countdown began. Did Galivar recieve the same visions? or was he as part of this "Sons of Honor." group recieving visions from the wrong side of the fence? without realising that he was starting off a chain of events.

 

Imagine if Odium did give him visions, pretending to be Honor and basically prodding him on a course of events which would lead to his death and the war, its entirely possible that he placed the idea of telling the Parshendi that he wanted to return their Gods into Galivar's head.

[Argent he/him]

and it seems like a fairly good guess that the voidspren cannot come before normal intelligent spren return to Roshar.

 

We don't know that this assumption is safe though. And everything pretty much hinges on it - if this were the case, then sure, it seems pretty obvious that the Recreance was a response to it. But we don't know that.