[OB] Dear Gods of the Forums

[Wit Beyond Measure she/her]

I love to speculate and theorize, not on what is but on what might be or what could be.  Sometimes I'm right.  Oftentimes I'm not.  Sometimes I have a ton of evidence.  Sometimes I have a little.  

Sanderson is the perfect author for theorizing because he's the King of Foreshadowing, the Master of Architects, the Builder of Worlds and Stories.  He leaves us thousands of tiny clues that could mean any number of things.  Or could not.

So I came here seeking a place where I could theorize with like-minded folks who are all very wonderful experts in all things Stormlight.  And you are such wonderful experts! 

But many here seem terribly offended my hypotheses.  I postulate and, like the fabrial-detecting spren of Kholinar, users descend on me.  I seem to have defiled their sacred Sanderson by suggesting alternative interpretations and ideas.

I do not wish to give offense.  I apologize to those I've offended.  And I would love to find a way of sharing my ideas with other intuitive-minded folks who love exploring what might be or what could be while not offending those practical-minded folks who need empirical proof. 

I know that this is a great deal to ask, but would it be possible to have a subforum for Oathbringer Theories & Intuitions so those offended by intuitions can know to steer away from such abominations?  With hundreds of daily posts, I'm surprised there aren't more subforums, but there could be a reason for that.

I see the disconnect as an S versus N thing in terms of the Myers-Briggs personality types.

http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/sensing-or-intuition.htm?bhcp=1

I'm an N, obviously!  (Pattern is my kindred spirit.) I love Ss.  I'm married to one.  But if my Nness is offending some Ss, I'd rather be somewhere I'm not offending.

[RShara she/her]

We've clashed a few times.  We mainly disagree, but I've tried not to be hostile.  I do feel that more hard evidence is needed in a lot of your theories before the should be considered solid.  But discussion is what this forum is for.  As long as we are all careful to let our theories fit the evidence, instead of stretching the evidence to fit the theories, we should be okay.

[Kered he/him]

8/10 times when I post speculation or theories I often have something wrong and or missing. When that happens fellow forum users post and let me know what's wrong or what I'm missing. I fix and learn from the mistake and my knowledge of the cosmere increases. I would much prefer that than living in blissful ignorance. Disagreeing with people simply for the fact that they disagree with me and not actually for the information they provide just seems counterproductive. In the big picture that's pretty much the driving force on what makes these forums so awesome. I've honestly learned as much through conversations and corrections on the Shard as I have reading the novels. I wouldn't have the knowledge level I have now on all things cosmere if it wasn't for people like @Calderis and @RShara giving me corrections or telling me I'm wrong. 

It's kinda all circular. The old guard helps and assists the new forum users on information they've learned and the new users do the same thing for newer users, and so on. Obviously sometimes it can get frustrating when you find out your wrong or you've missed some crucial piece for a theory. But as with most things, trial and error is one of the most effective ways of learning and expanding your intelligence. Having people disagree with you or correct you aids in that process.  

Edited January 1, 2018 by Kered

[RShara she/her]

I think up crazy theories all the time that I'm too lazy to post, tbh.  And by the time I find the motivation, I've usually found at least 5 things that proved I was nuts, and so I end up not posting them at all

[maxal she/her]

I somehow take issues into having disagreements spawning through speculative theory making being resumed as an MBTI personality conflict... I find it too close to those Internet speculations wanting a handful of given types to be superior minded people for my personal taste. It may not have been the OP's intentions, but I find the idea of opening a sub forum where "like minded people", preferably "N-types" to roam free of the intervention of the "lesser minded people", usually "S-type", a tad bothersome. Obviously, it wasn't stated within those terms, but this is how it can be interpreted and I needed to point it out.

Disagreements are part of life. Sometimes a decent theory is phrased in ways which offends other people. Some theories also are just a tad too far-fetched for the general crowd. Sometimes users clash on various subjects. When this happens, there isn't much else to do but sit down and try to figure out how to phrase it better next time. It also helps trying not to make it personal, it rarely is. Two users can clash and hate each other on one issue, but become allies on another one.

[King Cole he/him]

Almost every theory is gonna have contention, and you have to be ok with your ideas being shot down all the time

[Straw he/him]

Nah, most people tear apart your theories because they have no support. By the way, it’s called constructive criticism, and it’s meant to help you improve.

Could you explain why there needs to be another Oathbringer board? It seems like the current one is good enough.

Meyers-Briggs is a terrible reason to divide a forum. As Maxal pointed out, it also seems kind of an elitist thing to do.

[Vortaan he/him]

What I recommend is doing a little more research before you post theories. For example, your mistwraith/Midnight essence one has the easily researched problem that Midnight Essence predates the concept of mistwraiths by several thousand years. Most of your theories seem to be freeform theorizing with some quotes to fill them out. That's great, but what I'd really suggest is giving your theories like a day to percolate and see if you still like them. I think that extra time would be something you'd benefit from.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

@Wit Beyond Measure I think the way to think about this, is this whole communal process of theorizing and speculating is a means to move forward, it's the progress of mankind in Microcosm. People with new ideas come online and create new connections, and everyone that is on here has some unique perspective/talent to add to the collective efforts of deepening understanding.

I, like you, try to reach for the sun, try to fit crazy bits of disparate things together to come up with novel formulations, that most the time turn out to be totally off. But that's the fun part. The other users on here use there expertise and skill to shoot down thoeries that really are only half-baked or that haven't been thought through to what they mean at their logical point of completion. It can feel adversarial at times, but the thing to think about is that this the place where the Esoteric fire of knowledge of all things Sanderson is held and tended. These amazing folks at the 17th shard have dedicated their lives in a truly remarkable way to the tending of this fire. Part of authoritative knowledge is quickly shutting down lines of speculation that are wrong and could mislead others about the true nature of the Cosmere.

@Calderis is a master of WoBs. @RShara is the queen of canon facts. Others have unique gifts to offer to cut away the erroneous assumptions, to strip away the false conjecture, and most importantly to look at the primary sources and the WoBs and the WoPs to assure that a theory is truly inline with the intent of the Author.

Wild speculation is fun, but good information is ultimately better.

You are amazing at finding great quotes, and your theories are really fun to read. I'd try not to take it personally when people argue against your theories, it's just part of the collective process of finding the truth, and ultimately that's what everyone hear values most.

[RShara she/her]

1 minute ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

@Wit Beyond Measure I think the way to think about this, is this whole communal process of theorizing and speculating is a means to move forward, it's the progress of mankind in Microcosm. People with new ideas come online and create new connections, and everyone that is on here has some unique perspective/talent to add to the collective efforts of deepening understanding.

I, like you, try to reach for the sun, try to fit crazy bits of disparate things together to come up with novel formulations, that most the time turn out to be totally off. But that's the fun part. The other users on here use there expertise and skill to shoot down thoeries that really are only half-baked or that haven't been thought through to what they mean at their logical point of completion. It can feel adversarial at times, but the thing to think about is that this the place where the Esoteric fire of knowledge of all things Sanderson is held and tended. These amazing folks at the 17th shard have dedicated their lives in a truly remarkable way to the tending of this fire. Part of authoritative knowledge is quickly shutting down lines of speculation that are wrong and could mislead others about the true nature of the Cosmere.

@Calderis is a master of WoBs. @RShara is the queen of canon facts. Others have unique gifts to offer to cut away the erroneous assumptions, to strip away the false conjecture, and most importantly to look at the primary sources and the WoBs and the WoPs to assure that a theory is truly inline with the intent of the Author.

Wild speculation is fun, but good information is ultimately better.

You are amazing at finding great quotes, and your theories are really fun to read. I'd try not to take it personally when people argue against your theories, it's just part of the collective process of finding the truth, and ultimately that's what everyone hear values most.

Thanks for the praise, but I get stuff wrong all the time.

[Varion he/him]

@Wit Beyond Measure, I've been enjoying the threads that you've posted, even if I don't always agree with your theories. You generally ask very questions, which lead to interesting discussions that I find valuable because they advance my own understanding of the Cosmere, even when I completely disagree with the original theory. In fact, often it's better if I disagree, because you have to do twice the work to challenge an idea than to agree with it. And while we might never end up agreeing on the theory, hopefully we have both asked deeper questions and learnt more from the discussion than either of us could on our own. 

I really believe that asking good questions when you open up a new thread is much more valuable than providing the right answer to those questions in the first post. That's because these forums work best as a collaborative effort. Sanderson's Cosmere is an incredibly complicated universe, with information scattered across multiple books (published and unpublished), thousands of WoB's, and various other clues and marginalia. Sifting through it all to make sense of everything, and make predictions is fun, but getting it right on your own is frankly impossible. Fortunately, the 17th Shard forums have done an amazing job, not only of collating and parsing all of that information, but also of creating a highly comprehensive and searchable wiki and WoB archive. But the best resource is absolutely the other sharders, especially the old guard, who have probably already asked these questions before, and have accumulated far more cosmeric theory than us. 

So keep asking the questions, and be aware that if you feel your are being attacked personally, then maybe it's because you are holding your theories a little too close to your heart. A good exercise might be to go back and look at all the theories written before Oathbringer was released, and see how plain wrong most of them appear now. Most of us will be wrong. But the theories that got it right (or almost right) generally came from vigorous discussions where the evidence won out and people acknowledged their errors.

Edit: Yeah, what @hoiditthroughthegrapevine said. 

Edited January 1, 2018 by Varion

[Orlion Blight he/him]

1 hour ago, Straw said:

Meyers-Briggs is a terrible reason to divide a forum. As Maxal pointed out, it also seems kind of an elitist thing to do.

Meyers-Briggs is just terrible. Mostly for the reason Maxal pointed out, also because you might as well post your horoscope sign. It does not really give useful insight into your personality like any label/name.

I'm a melancholic Sagittarius, by the way 

[Pagerunner he/him]

Dear Mortals of the Forums

If you have an issue with other users' posts, please use the report button to bring them to the moderators' attentions. We are unable to stay on top of every post the old-fashioned way, especially during the holiday season. Since you say there have been repeated instances of rude behavior, feel free to collect them and PM to me all together.

This spoiler board is absolutely the place for baseless speculation, with the caveat that Brandon has revealed lots of tidbits beyond the books that throw wrenches in all sorts of ideas. Users are expected to be gracious both sharing and receiving such information during discussion, and any condescension or name-calling is not acceptable. Again, use the report button if anything like that occurs.

Topic Closed

[Chaos he/him]

@Wit Beyond Measure I'd like to add a bit more to Pagerunner's reply.

First, I'm sorry you feel people are pouncing on you. Please report relevant posts that you feel this is occurring and we will deal with them, and also, feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss further. I'd like to say you are quite valued. I saw, on the day you posted this topic, you #1 in reputation for the week. I've looked through and I think most things have remained civil. Please report stuff you think isn't. The thing is, the cosmere does have correct answers and incorrect ones, so I think in some cases it's totally fine for someone to say "Yeah, I don't know about that, and here's why." Veterans could do maybe better at explaining and try to not feel annoyed, which maybe they did. But really, there's always fresh blood and we want to encourage new ideas and thoughts. It is important for people doing "correcting" to say so with grace, and it's also important for the person being corrected to also take that with grace. No offense should be taken--though it is important for any corrections to be said respectfully. 

But I don't think people are offended by you, at all. Many just have a big desire for people to understand what is correct or not correct, and in the cosmere, that is a thing that we have. 

On 1/1/2018 at 0:47 PM, Wit Beyond Measure said:

I know that this is a great deal to ask, but would it be possible to have a subforum for Oathbringer Theories & Intuitions so those offended by intuitions can know to steer away from such abominations?  With hundreds of daily posts, I'm surprised there aren't more subforums, but there could be a reason for that.

I would like to discuss the matter of subforums, as forum layout is a thing I've thought about a huge deal. 

Subforums are not inherently good. In fact, they are actually inherently bad, in my opinion, and I consistently resist adding subforums. it's a rote reaction for me. The reason is simple: the more choice there is in where things can be located, the more friction there is in a new member deciding where to post. Having too many choices is not really good. 

There's also the factor that I know we will be around for a long time, and Brandon will be writing books for a long time. I knew at the outset of 17th Shard that having a subforum for each book would be a horrible mistake. People would constantly place things in the wrong forum. It can be so hard, you know? With your suggested forum, even without the context of the rest of your post, I could never make such a thing. It would be confusing for people to understand what that means with other varieties of theorizing, and so many people would get that wrong. It's quite impractical.

People have asked me for shipping forums. I don't want to do that either. I don't want people who feel character discussion is valuable to feel ostracized by the structure of the forum. But also, we just don't structure forums by type of discussion, but just by the book/series they are in. That structure has a lot of advantages: it's immediately understandable to anyone. I'm not saying that structure is perfect. But imagine a world where there's a forum for "Oathbringer Character Discussion" and "Oathbringer Theorizing" and maybe another with that (memes?), who knows. That quickly spirals out of control really fast if that happens per book. I don't even agree that books should have their own dedicated board. This one will go away after the spoiler period and merge with the rest of the Stormlight board. I don't know if that's perfect but surely it's better than us having seven subforums for Stormlight, one for each book, where people accidentally use later info in the older boards. (Plus, the older boards wouldn't get nearly as much use as the new ones.) This whole train of thought makes me queasy. 

Forum structure is really difficult and it will please no one. Some will want more structure. Some will want less. Some will want it subdivided differently. Some want something better for spoilers. All of these are important concerns and I do want people to know I listen to them. The Oathbringer subforum has been chaotic, and I don't know if there's an easy way to make it better. (Wouldn't any book release be chaos regardless, even if we subdivide it a bit?) Maybe Stormlight should get its own category of multiple forums, since it is the most popular book discussion board. And it is a worry that, in our second decade, people will feel they need to read too much to join in on some discussions if we keep merging spoiler boards like this. 

These are all things I think about. But, I'd say that more subforums is usually not the answer.