[OB] Stormlight 4 and 5

[+Wax]

I think this is a good time to start talking about the next two books.

The name Stones Unhallowed is the working title for book 5.

I’ve speculated in the past about the Prologue chapters as well.

BS has said he’s drafting up the outline for book 4 and 5 next year prior to writing book 4 in 2019.  BS has also said he’s drated the epilogue of Book 5.

Here’s my theory.

Book 4 delayed till 2022, but the gap between book 4 and 5 might be just 1 year, ie 2023.

Now, BS did write BoM in Mistborn prior to finishing Shadows of Self.

So, book 4 is very much like Shadows of Self - that it is a set up book for book 5.

I kept thinking OB might setting up more as well.  But, I felt less setup in OB and the ending felt a bit rushed.  So, book 4 might be a total set up for book 5 as compensation.  Knowing BS’s books, I think BS might want to be more epic than anything else.  So, book 4 and 5 to be practically written in concert together, except Stones Unhallowed to be more like 70% (eg missing interludes, art etc).  Which means just a 1 year lag between book 4 and Stones Unhallowed!

What are your book 4 & 5 theories?

 

 

 

[Govir]

I don't think he'll write book 4 and 5 at the same time if only because they are so much bigger than the Mistborn books. Shadows of Self and Bands of Mourning are 1000 pages combined. Oathbringer is 1248 pages. (Both stats according to Amazon). If he were to write anything along side Book 4, I think it would be a novella at most (I was really hoping for a Secret History: Stormlight Archive, chronicling Jasnah's trip in Shadesmar for Oathbringer). I think he's drafted the epilogue of Book 5 because he knows that's where he wants to cut it, and so he made the edge that he's working towards.

I will concede that he might write *parts* of Book 5 while writing Book 4 (i.e. first drafts of stuff), since part of the reason he wrote Bands of Mourning was to get a clearer picture of later events (i.e. I remember Sanderson saying something about having trouble pinning down some scenes in SoS, so he skipped ahead and started working on BoM).

[Song]

Fun question!

I think book 4 will be setting up for the big battle of Fuses/Odiums army verses Radients/Dalinar's army in book 5

As book 4 is Venli book I suspect there will be lots of Venli working out her surges and secretly raising up a following of non-Odium listeners who will join the Radiants for book 5.

The focus for Dalinar and his team will be training and finding new squires and Radiants. Something I am dying to see is some training exercises like the Skybreakers in OB, but with Radiant against Radiant to prepare to fight the Fused. So we will see Kaladin fighting Lift, Szeth fighting Jasnah etc. How cool would that be!

I think that we will finally see a Stonewarden Radiant. And I hate to say It, but I think Moash will kill Taln, causing the Stoneward Radiant to reach the next ideal (I will stand while others fall).

I think Shallan and Dalinar will have less chapters and Kaladin more. More questions and mysteries will be raised about Renarin, but book 5 will be where he becomes the main focus.

 

[Patrick Star]

2 hours ago, Song said:

I think that we will finally see a Stonewarden Radiant. And I hate to say It, but I think Moash will kill Taln, causing the Stoneward Radiant to reach the next ideal (I will stand while others fall).

I'm gonna have to disagree with this point.  At the final battle at Thaylen city, Dalinar was surrounded by Kaladin, Jasnah, Taln, Ash, Shallan, Szeth, Lift, Renarin, and Eshonai, and felt like all 10 orders were present/the radiants were back.  I think those characters are safe until at least the very end of book 5, though I'm personally on the "10 new heralds" train (meaning that those 10 go to Braize to "end" this desolation and buy time, leading to the timeskip between the front and back 5 books).

[Yezrien]

Since book 4 seems to be Eshonai's book (and probably Venli's), I predict the titular in-world book won't be a book at all, but an old listener song. It'll be called "The Song of [Something]." It'll probably be an important song that Venli and Eshonai learned from their mother.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Belzedar

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Belzedar said:

Since book 4 seems to be Eshonai's book (and probably Venli's), I predict the titular in-world book won't be a book at all, but an old listener song. It'll be called "The Song of [Something]."

Agreed. I've been saying "The Song of Secrets" for a while now. 

[Leuthie]

More likely "The Rhythm of ..."

[Willshaping Crasher]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Agreed. I've been saying "The Song of Secrets" for a while now. 

Have an upvote.  I was thinking something along the line of "Rhythms of Remembrance", but yours works better.

 

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

More likely "The Rhythm of ..."

5 minutes ago, Willshaping Crasher said:

Have an upvote.  I was thinking something along the line of "Rhythms of Remembrance", but yours works better.

I've been leaning towards that because the listener songs are their books. They were a society with an oral history. 

And of the songs we've seen in epigraphs, the Song of Secrets seems to be one that is both forgotten, and holds truths the listeners don't remember. 

There's two passages in it that reference forms that we see in another song that are changed. The one I remember is artform. The Song of Secrets says to attain the form they must attract a spren  that isn't obvious, but in a later sing it says creationspren, which is the opposite, and the listeners were attempting to catch creationspren for that purpose. 

I think The Song of Secrets holds truths forgotten to the living listeners. 

[+Wax]

I am thinking about what explicit clues were left about the future books in OB.  And the one that comes to mind is Odium’s question to Mr T. “What can you tell me about the tower?”

So, an attack on Urithiru clearly on Odium’s mind.

[StormingTexan]

24 minutes ago, Wax said:

I am thinking about what explicit clues were left about the future books in OB.  And the one that comes to mind is Odium’s question to Mr T. “What can you tell me about the tower?”

So, an attack on Urithiru clearly on Odium’s mind.

He actually says "You will find out what the Alethi have learned of this tower". I'm thinking it is not necessarily an attack he is thinking about but wondering if they have discovered what Urithiru is and what it can do. Which I'd like to know too 

[.S.A.M.K.M]

Stones unhallowed makes me think of truthless. So we would likely learn about shinovar, possibly even where the honor blades are. This could lead to the other heralds getting involved. Also, since he is pretty advanced with his oaths, we would see the formation of his plates. Also, I am betting we might see answers to the black sphere.

[Guest Edonidd]

I think Sanderson more than most of the other top tier writers openly admits that he reads the other books out there.  And so I think he will avoid 2 of the biggest mistakes that a couple of his fellow writers have made "recently."  

#1  I don't think there is any chance he pulls a Feast for Crows and splits up the viewpoints into separate books.  People killed GRRM for that.  So all of our favorite characters will be included.

#2 I don't think he will pull a Dust of Dreams/Crippled God deal on us.  Ericson did 80+% setup in book 9 and the resolution was all in book 10.  He knew he made a mistake as soon as he sent book 9 out to the publisher I think, because it comes with a fore word warning that it's really just the first half of a very long book, not a separate stand alone book.  I thinnk BS will make sure book 4 can stand on its own merits.

[Cosmé]

The end of book 5 really fascinates me. What is going to happen that causes the change in character focus and possible time skip? Are we going to see an end to the Odium arc? An end to the current desolation? Will the oathpact be reformed with new heralds? Will the old focus characters get killed off? Will Odium conquer all of Roshar, causing the next set of books to be about the survivors? Will we see a resolution to the main plot mysteries (the black spheres, the Urithiru fabriel)? 

25 minutes ago, .S.A.M.K.M said:

Stones unhallowed makes me think of truthless.

Yep, we're getting Szeth flashbacks in 5. That should include Szeth being named truthless. 

17 hours ago, Calderis said:

Agreed. I've been saying "The Song of Secrets" for a while now

I like it. Fits the name pattern for Books 1 and 2, interestingly

• ___ of ___
• Way of Kings
• Words of Radiance
• Song of Secrets

Edited December 27, 2017 by Cosmé

[Govir]

16 hours ago, Edonidd said:

#1  I don't think there is any chance he pulls a Feast for Crows and splits up the viewpoints into separate books.  People killed GRRM for that.  So all of our favorite characters will be included.

To this point, he *kind of* did this with the Wheel of Time books, and it didn't work well there. Uh, slight WoT spoilers if you're sensitive to them.

Spoiler

The Gathering Storm presses Rand's story pretty far, while still keeping an eye on all the characters. But then in Towers of Midnight, much of Perrin's story is supposed to be taking place during the same time as Rand's from The Gathering Storm. Further, we jump from Perrin in "the past", to Rand in "the present", and back to Perrin in "the past", making the sequencing of events very convoluted (made more so by the fact that Tam is present in both). I hope he never does something like that again.

 

[Melovespie]

39 minutes ago, Govir said:

To this point, he *kind of* did this with the Wheel of Time books, and it didn't work well there. Uh, slight WoT spoilers if you're sensitive to them.

  Hide contents

The Gathering Storm presses Rand's story pretty far, while still keeping an eye on all the characters. But then in Towers of Midnight, much of Perrin's story is supposed to be taking place during the same time as Rand's from The Gathering Storm. Further, we jump from Perrin in "the past", to Rand in "the present", and back to Perrin in "the past", making the sequencing of events very convoluted (made more so by the fact that Tam is present in both). I hope he never does something like that again.

 

To be fair, I am pretty sure that series was mostly plotted out. He just finished writing it. 

I also think Song of Secrets could be a good title. 

I am curious to see where Book 4 goes. I don't think anyone was expecting as much to happen in OB as it did. Like many others, I was expecting a lot of set up and character development to carry through the last two books. Then there was sooooo much plot development! It still ended with a bunch of questions. What Brandon has been doing so far with this series is somehow developing and completing plot lines while, at the same time, introducing new ones or expanding on old ones. I am pretty amazed with how masterfully he is pulling this off. I am left with high hopes that the next book will have as much story development in it as the past three, although I will not be disappointed if it is a lot of set up.

I do think some sort of attack or infiltration on Urithiru is likely. I also think there will be some counterattacking on Alethi lands, or reclaiming certain areas. I wonder if there will be some sort of excursion to the Horneater Peaks, although that may be unnecessary as Dalinar can summon a perpendicularity at will. I also think that Taravangian will be discovered as working with Odium, but I hope his character turns around. I am curious to see where the Fused will attack next. Maybe Jah Keved, maybe Azir. Shallan will also have an extremely interesting plot line I believe, and Adolin will continue his quest to revive Maya. Kaladin is a little more up in the air(pun intended), although I do like the theory that he is asked to be Highprince. That would just make me giddy. 

Dalinar, I believe, will just be playing general and sending people out on missions. I see Jasnah as taking a more active role in the governing of Urithiru with Navani and Sebarial as her back up. Renarin could really go anywhere, although I want him to be used more! Lift and Szeth will have fantastic highjinks and we are all better off for it!

Seeing Venli start to organize a quiet resistance among the Parshendi would be fantastic. Maybe Kaladin will end up helping them out, which would be awesome!

Edited December 28, 2017 by Melovespie
Fixed formatting errors

[Kaleid]

On 27/12/2017 at 0:29 AM, Song said:

As book 4 is Venli book

How do we know this? And the working title for book 5?

[Dahak]

4 minutes ago, Kaleid said:

How do we know this? And the working title for book 5?

Sanderson intends that books alternate between male and female(n) flashbacks. Sazed and Eshonai(and so Venli) are the remaining flashback characters from the first five.

 

That is I assume Eshonai's flashbacks are going to be mostly femalen. If she's in Mate form for them all that could be odd.

[Kaleid]

I guess you meant Szeth

 

I still don't get how knowing that we are going to be alternating genders means that the PoV will be Venli's. Couldn't it just as easily be Navani or Jasnah?

 

Or are the first five flashback characters already confirmed somewhere?

[Dahak]

1 hour ago, Kaleid said:

I guess you meant Szeth

 

I still don't get how knowing that we are going to be alternating genders means that the PoV will be Venli's. Couldn't it just as easily be Navani or Jasnah?

 

Or are the first five flashback characters already confirmed somewhere?

yeah Szeth.

Brandon told us who he had planned a while back and that it was one per Order and hasn't changed the list (Originally he was going to have Navani, Adolin and Taravangian rather than Renarin, Lift and Eshonai) since before he swapped Dalinar and Szeth's books (Thus we know Szeths working title but not Venli's.).

Second five is currently set to be Jasnah, Taln, Shalash, Renarin, and Lift. But not becersserily that order.

[Govir]

1 hour ago, Kaleid said:

Or are the first five flashback characters already confirmed somewhere?

I'm pretty sure there was a statement (even before Oathbringer) of who the first five were. I can't find it specifically but here's a few relevant WoBs.

Source - This one is from before Oathbringer and implies that Dalinar, Szeth, and Eshonai are contenders, implying they are the 3 remaining of the first 5.

Quote

 

Questioner (paraphrased)

Will Book 3 [of The Stormlight Archive] be Szeth's book?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He used to think so. Now it might be Dalinar's. He is going to do the flashbacks for both (and Eshonai) and then decide.

Questioner [Alternate wording from stormfather's report] (paraphrased)

[The Stormlight Archive] 3 pov character? Some say Szeth others say it's up in the air?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said he's not going to canonize it or anything, he's also looking at Dalinar and Eshonai and going to see who's backstory fits the flow of the book best

Source - This one is from after Oathbringer, and Brandon does not correct the assumption by the Questioner that Szeth and Eshonai are the last two.

Quote

 

sv15249

1)Flashback characters for books 4 and 5 are Eshonai and Szeth.In previous books "main" character got a role in all five parts of the book.Will it be the same for these two?Szeth and Eshonai are important, but had very little "screen time" so far.So, in their books will they get a huge role in main narrative?Or will they have flashback sequence only, but main narrative will still focus on our three main heroes(Kaladin,Dalinar,Shallan)?

2)How you deal with multiple POV's?Their amount increase with each book, which means less "screen time" for each character.I know, in series with such big cast, it's very hard to keep balance.What is your possible solution for this problem?Just don't say, you will kill some characters to free space for new ones George Martin style.

3)You said, there will be a timeskip between two parts of Stormlight.But will we have more timeskips between five books of each part?For example, between book 3 and book 4, or 4 and 5.Or between 6 and 7?I ask this, because in first Mistborn trilogy we had year long timeskips between each book.Wonder, will we have it in SA?

4)Is it possible, that main characters from first five will show up in last five books?

Brandon Sanderson

1) Having not read those books, I can't say 100%--but the original plan was to do it this way, and Book Three continues the trend. Shallan/Dalinar/Kaladin will continue to be very important, but I might pull back on side characters. We'll see.

2) This is the biggest challenge in writing epic fantasy. For me, I divided the series into two halfs (books 1-5 and books 6-10) with a focus on some characters for the first half, some for the second. But also, I do plan for certain characters to step back a little in other books. It's a balance I'm still juggling.

3) Plan is for book four to take place a year after book three, so there will be some smaller timeskips too--but the biggest is between five and six.

4) Yes, many of them will--and will still be important.

 

Edited December 28, 2017 by Govir
Formatting

[Ailvara]

3 hours ago, Dahak said:

yeah Szeth.

Brandon told us who he had planned a while back and that it was one per Order and hasn't changed the list (Originally he was going to have Navani, Adolin and Taravangian rather than Renarin, Lift and Eshonai) since before he swapped Dalinar and Szeth's books (Thus we know Szeths working title but not Venli's.).

Second five is currently set to be Jasnah, Taln, Shalash, Renarin, and Lift. But not becersserily that order.

Does this mean, that Navani, Adolin and Taravangian were/are all planned as radiants of the same orders as Renarin, Lift and Eshonai, to keep the "one per order"book plan? That would give Lift stepping into the place of Adolin I guess, I'm not so sure about how Navani and Taravangian would fit the Willshaper and Truthwatcher books... 

[.S.A.M.K.M]

Not all the books are pre existing. Dalinar started to write oath bringer at the end of the book. The listerners have lost so much of their culture, heritage and so much more. So what if Venli or the one on bridge four wrote something for their people? To inspire and heal them, to guide them to a new or better path.

[Kaleid]

I'm actually so hyped for Szeth's book. I want to learn more about his past, and this will likely the in with his Cleaning of Shinovar, an area we know far too little about, and is likely to give us a lot of herald history. Hertory?

 

It seems likely to me that this will be wrapped up before the climax of book 5. That's why I'm holding out for Szeth's story to be book 4.

 

Besides, it makes sense to have a peekhole into Odium's side in the buildup to the book 5 finale, with Venli as our perfect window - which would go well with learning her history also.

[maxal]

6 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Does this mean, that Navani, Adolin and Taravangian were/are all planned as radiants of the same orders as Renarin, Lift and Eshonai, to keep the "one per order"book plan? That would give Lift stepping into the place of Adolin I guess, I'm not so sure about how Navani and Taravangian would fit the Willshaper and Truthwatcher books... 

Brandon said each book would mostly focus on one order to the Knights Radiant: he never said the focus would always coincide with the flashback character nor that the primary main character would always be the same as the flashback character. I don't think Adolin was ever planned as a Radiant.

As such, there is no rule which states the "Edgedancer book" will be the one where Lift is the flashback character (for example) just as nothing says Venli will be the primary main character of book 4 just because the flashbacks will be Eshonai's. Until this is officially confirmed, I consider it is still up for grab, though it will realistically play as most are expecting. One thing is likely certain though is if someone is promoted to the top three stops, then someone in between Dalinar/Kaladin/Shallan is getting bumped down to tertiary character and we know how little page time those actually have. This is one aspect of SA which is making me sigh: how only three characters are allowed to have decent page time in any given book, everyone else sharing bit and scraps. As big as those books are, I feel there is ample place to have a wider main cast.