theory Parshendi Origins Theory

[Windrunner]

At this point, I'd like to put some increased evidence forward for the idea that the Parshendi are the true inhabitents of Roshar, who initally went to war against humanity for reasons that were somewhat understandable. Perhaps they were even created by Adonalsium when it was on Roshar, but that is irreleveant. Firstly, I'd like to point out that the Parshendi are unable to bond with the Nahel spren.

 

The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt.

Our minds are too close to their realm

That gives us our forms, but more is then

Demanded by the smartest spren,

We can’t provide what the humans lend,

Though broth are we, their meat is men.

-From the Listener Song of Spren, 9th stanza

I interpret this to mean that the Parshendi were unable to bond with the Nahel spren because they were closer to the Cognitive Realm than other peoples. This allowed them their forms, but they were not well-rooted enough in the Physical realm to form Nahel bonds with the most intelligent spren. However, then for whatever reason, human refugees arrived, I believe fleeing an attack by Odium onto their home planet of Braize, in the company of Honor and Cultivation. And they could bond with the Nahel spren just fine. However, they also were doing what humans do and conquering the Parshendi land with the help of these powers, and powerful spren such as the Stormfather, who they called traitor. They beat the Parshendi and drove them back into Braize, which was now a hellish nightmare, thanks to Odium. They called this place Damnation. I believe some memory of this conquest can be seen in this Death Rattle.

"Victory! We stand atop the mount! We scatter them before us! Their homes become our dens, their lands are now our farms! And they shall burn, as we once did, in a

place that is hollow and forlorn."

-Collected on Ishashan, 1172, 18 seconds pre-death. Subject was a lighteyed spinster of the eighth dahn.

The Parshendi, who had been around for much longer, felt betrayed by the spren, who gave humans some fantasitc abilities. How could the Parshendi hope to match them?

This is echoed here, with disturbing implications.

The betrayal of spren has brought us here.

They gave their Surges to human heirs,

But not to those who know them most dear, before us.

’Tis no surprise we turned away

Unto the gods we spent our days

And to become their molding clay, they changed us.

-From the Listener Song of Secrets, 40th stanza

At this point, I believe Odium saw what had happened happening, and realized that he had had a stroke of good fortune. His army was here. They were angry, they wanted their homes back. So, he and the Unmade made an accord with them. They would give them new forms, forms of power, in exchange for destroying humanity. The Parshendi agreed, without realizing the trick. Once they took on these forms and bonded with Odium's voidspren, they were his Voidbringers, scourge of Roshar. This is shown here.

Our gods were born splinters of a soul,

Of one who seeks to take control,

Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite.

They are his spren, his gift, his price.

But the nightforms speak of future life,

A challenged champion. A strife even he must requite.

-From the Listener Song of Secrets, final stanza

The Parshendi songs even claim that the gods gave them powers similar to the human Surges.

Smokeform for hiding and slipping between men.

A form of power, like human Surges.

Bring it ’round again.

Though crafted of gods,

It was by Unmade hand.

Leaves its force to be but one of foe or friend.

-From the Listener Song of Histories, 127th stanza

Another quote again mentions that it was crafted by the Unmade.

Smokeform for hiding and slipping ’tween men.

A form of power-like Surges of spren.

Do we dare to wear this form again? It spies.

Crafted of gods, this form we fear.

By Unmade touch its curse to bear,

Formed from shadow-and death is near. It lies.

-From the Listener Song of Secrets, 51st stanza

This also explains something else.

The songs left out so much. The Last Legion hadn’t known how to transform into anything other than dullform and mateform, at least not without the help of the gods.

How had they known the other forms were possible? Had these facts originally been recorded in the songs, and then lost over the years as words changed here and there?

The Last Legion may not have been able to remember a time when they were free to chose their own form, but it used to be so, before humanity arrived. So although time has dulled the specifics, the ideas of the forms themselves remain.

There is one quote that seems important that I cannot make sense of, though. Ideas on what this means are welcome.

’Tis said it was warm in the land far away

When Voidbringers entered our songs.

We brought them home to stay

And then those homes became their own,

It happened gradually.

And years ahead ’twil still be said ’tis how it has to be.

-From the Listener Song of Histories, 12th stanza

All in all, I think this is a pretty solid interpretation of early Rosharan history and the conflict between the humans and the Voidbringers. Obviously some of the details may be wrong, but I think the outlines are on the right track.

[Dru]

Do we know how any spices was created. Where they all created by Andolisuom and he also created Parshendi when he was moving around. Or do we have good old Darvins theory in the cosmere?

[Satsuoni]

I interpret this to mean that the Parshendi were unable to bond with the Nahel spren because they were closer to the Cognitive Realm than other peoples. This allowed them their forms, but they were not well-rooted enough in the Physical realm to form Nahel bonds with the most intelligent spren.

 

My interpretation is that Parshendi are, in a way, like spren - without spren, they are rather (in Physical) stupid (slaveform), and thus cannot provide purchase in the physical Realm for intelligent spren, since they don't have enough themselves (which leads to the implication that dumb spren bonded to Parshendi get ..dumber? in physical. I am not sure on this point)

 

There is one quote that seems important that I cannot make sense of, though. Ideas on what this means are welcome.

 

I think it is rather straightforward: They lived in a land far away (Braize? Or different part of Roshar?) when the first Voidspren were bound. But initially, the change was gradual, before they taken over completely, and became their gods. Perhaps the first contract was to help them return to Roshar, rather than actually fight humans? And then, over time, changing Rhythms, making them more warlike, etc...

 

The most interesting part for me is the Unmade. Just what are they? They cause death rattles and Thrill, so, are they spren? Are *they* perhaps, Adonalsium spren that broke when he shattered?

 

[Dru]

The most interesting part for me is the Unmade. Just what are they? They cause death rattles and Thrill, so, are they spren? Are *they* perhaps, Adonalsium spren that broke when he shattered?

 

 

Mr T says something about them in his diagram. I think they are spren but maybe they are related to al the negative feelings of humanity and maybe even Parshendi 

[Satsuoni]

Mr T says something about them in his diagram. I think they are spren but maybe they are related to al the negative feelings of humanity and maybe even Parshendi 

Yes, they are mentioned, but they are (those that we know of) vast, nebulous and very different from all other spren we have encountered, Stormfather included. No spren feed on death to provide glimpses of the future! (that we know of)

[Pattern]

However, then for whatever reason, human refugees arrived, I believe fleeing an attack by Odium onto their home planet of Braize, in the company of Honor and Cultivation.

Probably without Honor, since Honor was killed by Odium and the spren are splinters of him.

The stormfather calls himself a sliver of Honor:

"I am the one left behind," the voice said. [...] "I am the sliver of Him that remains. I saw His corpse, saw Him die when Odium murdered Him. And I...I fled. To continue as I always have. The piece of God left in this world, the winds that men must feel."

"I AM THE SLIVER OF THE ALMIGHTY HIMSELF! the voice said, sounding angry. I AM THE STORMFATHER.

 

Otherwise the blood colors of Humans, Parshendi and fauna of Roshar should give a hint. It would have been red, orange and violet, I believe - some rereading is neccessary.

Assuming the fauna is aboriginal with violet blood, the Parshendi could have followed to Roshar - or evolved with orange blood. They are called the old people somewhere - I cannot find the source at the moment (ebook would be helpful). So it is quite sure, that the Parshendi were on Roshar before the humans arrived. Humans with their red blood obviously have a different origin than the rest of Roshar.

 

Considering the unroshar nature of Shinovar, there could be the seed of human colonization of Roshar.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Pattern

[Dru]

Considering al the pain death and suffering that has been happening on Roshar over 99 desolations and in between. I think is likely that al that can give reason for the Unmade being spren feeding on those emotions.

 

Words of Radiance: Chapter 28 Epigraph said

The betrayal of spren has brought us here.
They gave their Surges to human heirs,
But not to those who know them most dear, before us.
’Tis no surprise we turned away
Unto the gods we spent our days
And to become their molding clay, they changed us.
-From the Listener Song of Secrets, 40th stanza

 

 

It says gods here, who where the Parshendi gods originally. I don't for one moment believe that it was Odium and/or the Unmade. Even if those are the ones that answered their preyers in order to use them for for destruction.

[Satsuoni]

Considering al the pain death and suffering that has been happening on Roshar over 99 desolations and in between. I think is likely that al that can give reason for the Unmade being spren feeding on those emotions.

 

Words of Radiance: Chapter 28 Epigraph said

 

 

It says gods here, who where the Parshendi gods originally. I don't for one moment believe that it was Odium and/or the Unmade. Even if those are the ones that answered their preyers in order to use them for for destruction.

I believe some of the Parshendi stated that the voidspren themselves were what they called "gods"

[freezedragon]

THE BOOK IS AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Aminar]

Spren are pieces of Shards though.  Unless they are a side affect of Adonalsium's past on the planet.  Either way, it seems wrong that the Spren would predate Shardic influence on the planet...  They are clearly tied to the shards and their magic system.  I don't have any better answers though.  

[Vortaan]

How about this? The Parshendi are Cultivation's creations, corrupted by Odium-spren when they take some forms, but with free will when they take forms more related to the natural world. Warform, dullform, matingform, etc are all forms that can relate to natural processes. Stormform? Not so much. Notice something else about stormform: the spren are VISIBLE to Alethi killing the Parshendi. This is hugely important I feel. Why? Because there is no such spren shown when killing warform Parshendi! So what is the difference?

[marianmi]

Smokeform... "It was by Unmade hand."

 

Anyone thinks that smokeform is achieved when bound to one Unmade?

Maybe it was Venli, and now moved on and take another guise? - this time maybe human?

 

 

Otherwise: parshendi are more of the cognitive, thus are dumb in the physical. How come they are smarter when bonding a spren, 100% cognitive?

[Vortaan]

Smokeform... "It was by Unmade hand."

 

Anyone thinks that smokeform is achieved when bound to one Unmade?

Maybe it was Venli, and now moved on and take another guise? - this time maybe human?

 

 

Otherwise: parshendi are more of the cognitive, thus are dumb in the physical. How come they are smarter when bonding a spren, 100% cognitive?

 

Probably because they were designed that way? If my theory that they are Cultivation's creations is correct, then it would make complete sense for spren and Parshendi to have been designed with a symbiotic relationship in mind. In fact, one of the epigraphs kind of hints at that, with the spren turning their backs on the Listeners for humans, probably because humans could achieve the sets of mind needed to attract a wide variety of spren much easier than Listeners could due to the nature of their symbiosis.

[marianmi]

Given that cultivationspren (like Wyndle) don't bond with parshendi, I would say that no, they are not cultivation's creation.

Rather it looks like they were on Roshar before humans's arrival, probably created by Adonalsium.

Edited March 6, 2014 by marianmi

[Vortaan]

Given that cultivationspren (like Wyndle) don't bond with parshendi, I would say that no, they are not cultivation's creation.

Rather it looks like they were on Roshar before humans's arrival, probably created by Adonalsium.

 

I think it's a jump to assume that Wyndle is just a cultivationspren. He's likely a mixture spren, which is why he allows access to Honor's magic system and cares about oaths/honor. Otherwise his bonding to a Radiant doesn't make much sense. I'll also wager that true cultivation spren are less sapient than other spren, similar to windspren or flamespren. That might be another reason that spren in general prefer humans is that they can gain sapience in the Physical realm from them, where they can't with Listeners.

[zandi]

 

 

At this point, I'd like to put some increased evidence forward for the idea that the Parshendi are the true inhabitents of Roshar, who initally went to war against humanity for reasons that were somewhat understandable. Perhaps they were even created by Adonalsium when it was on Roshar, but that is irreleveant. Firstly, I'd like to point out that the Parshendi are unable to bond with the Nahel spren.

I agree. I think maybe it is the more basic spren (as Windrunner said they can't bond w Nahel spren) that originally bonded with Parshendi before Odium threw his spren in and co-opted their natural symbiosis to his purpose.  The Unmade spren form, smoke form  and Stormform would be his later additions, which the songs warn against.

 

I think they sought dull form intentionally to get out of connecting with Odium

 

Dullform dread, with the mind most lost.

The lowest, and one not bright.

To find this form, one need banish the cost.

It finds you and brings you to blight.

 

This ironically makes them vulnerable (brings them to blight) to Odium for a second round though because they forgot and must rely on the songs whose meanings they don't 100% understand and misinterpret. 

 

Mediation form seems to be an example of how they can be duped like this...they sought to avoid storm form by the treaty and assassination - but that just ended up hastening its return. Since they seem only to refer to Odium's spren as their gods ("Our gods were born splinters of a soul, Of one who seeks to take control,"):

 

Mediationform made for peace, it’s said.

Form of teaching and consolation.

When used by the gods, it became instead

Form of lies and desolation.

 

Happily the nightform (from night watcher?) seems to show a possibility for a better future:

 

Nightform predicting what will be,

The form of shadows, mind to foresee.

As the gods did leave, the nightform whispered.

A new storm will come, someday to break.

A new storm a new world to make.

A new storm a new path to take, the nightform listens.

 

Our gods were born splinters of a soul,

Of one who seeks to take control,

Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite.

They are his spren, his gift, his price.

But the nightforms speak of future life,

A challenged champion.  A strife even he must requite.

 

this seems to me to imply that a new path (after the final storm, ever storm) can be won - meaning that they can be free of Odium - and maybe all Shards and become their own masters so to speak - in a "future life" if 

Odium's champion either loses the challenge or ultimately rejects Odium (is challenged by a crisis of conscience?).... 

 

Is Eshonai then Odium's champion?

 

Finally, if all works out...they might then gain Nahel bonds - perhaps this is the "new path":

 

But it is not impossible to blend

Their Surges to ours in the end.

It has been promised and it can come.

Or do we understand the sum?

We question not if they can have us then,

But if we dare to have them again.

 

Conclusion: I think originally Parshendi were at worst a neutral/benign race...and that was turned to Odium's purpose without their full understanding of the consequences when they changed to his forms the first time.

 

It seems they can be redeemed though.  After all would they need Art form otherwise?    And why so much need to understand color?

(Empahses mine)

 

[banestar]

I really like the idea that the Parshendi are of Cultivation, given the way that they seem to consistently be striving to "grow" themselves from a base form to something more perfect or more advanced.

 

We've got no confirmation that the Parshendi use the same spren as we've seen in the Nahel bond, etc. to move from form to form, just the hint that Voidspren (or something like them) can fill a Parshendi and turn it to a Voidbringer / stormform.

 

Perhaps Cultivation's spren are the ones who *should* be filling the Parshendi, and allow them to turn to the forms they used to in the old days? Perhaps given the Parshendi's time spent in the Shattered Plains, warring, has taken them away from the nature of Cultivation (they're not growing or building anything -- they're in a holding pattern of battle) is keeping them from internalizing the spren they're "supposed" to bond.

[zandi]

 

 

Perhaps Cultivation's spren are the ones who *should* be filling the Parshendi, and allow them to turn to the forms they used to in the old days?

I think they do bond to cultivation-like spren at least already, but not the nahel bond ones (mateform grows/cultivates new parshendi no?  ) but i think when they assumed dull form ages ago to get away from the grip odium had with stormform, they forgot how to bond to many spren they are "supposed" to bond to.

 

what is keeping them from regaining this? nothing. they were in-process, so to speak, of relearning how to bond with their rightful spren and relearn their old forms...until they decided to start with stormform again...

[Morsk]

This exchange with Rlain gave me the idea that the Unmade used to be Parshendi, but sacrificed themselves to Odium, letting him make them into ... whatever they are. For all that Rlain hates what they're doing, even he uses a "slow and reverent" tone referring to them, perhaps the Rhythm of Mourning.

 

“What does it mean, soldier?” Dalinar asked.

“It means our gods have returned,” Rlain whispered.

“Who are your gods?”

“They are the souls of those ancient. Those who gave of themselves to destroy.” A different rhythm to his words this time, slow and reverent. He looked up at Dalinar. “They hate you and your kind, sir. This new form they have given my people . . . it is something terrible. It will bring something terrible.”

Also Wit says Odium has some power like this, though perhaps all Shards do:

 

“I will do what I can to help,” Wit said, “and for that reason, I must go. I cannot risk too much, because if he finds me, then I become nothing — a soul shredded and broken into pieces that cannot be reassembled. What I do here is more dangerous than you could ever know.”

[zandi]

 

 

This exchange with Rlain gave me the idea that the Unmade used to be Parshendi, but sacrificed themselves to Odium, letting him make them into ... whatever they are. For all that Rlain hates what they're doing, even he uses a "slow and reverent" tone referring to them, perhaps the Rhythm of Mourning.

 

This makes sense to me. In the sense that the Unmade are/might be souls when you link it with the what Rlain said.  It kinda made me think of Shadows for Silence.  Maybe that's how the shades from that world were (UN)made??

 

In any case this with what Hoid/Wit says seems to make it a definite way of Odium's going about making hateful spren like things. So I can see why it would happen on 2 worlds in the same system. 

 

The question is, if true, did they knowingly sacrifice themselves to destroy? Because they were angry about the Nahel bond?

Perhaps similar to what I think Dru was saying above about:

 

The betrayal of spren has brought us here.

They gave their Surges to human heirs,

But not to those who know them most dear, before us.

’Tis no surprise we turned away

Unto the gods we spent our days

And to become their molding clay, they changed us.

-From the Listener Song of Secrets, 40th stanza

 

I'm still hoping that there's room for them to be redeemed at the end and find a new path...

Edited March 7, 2014 by zandi

[Vortaan]

This exchange with Rlain gave me the idea that the Unmade used to be Parshendi, but sacrificed themselves to Odium, letting him make them into ... whatever they are. For all that Rlain hates what they're doing, even he uses a "slow and reverent" tone referring to them, perhaps the Rhythm of Mourning.

 

Also Wit says Odium has some power like this, though perhaps all Shards do:

 

 

See, I'm taking that another way and assuming that the Unmade are Odium's version of Heralds, people torn apart until just the qualities he wanted in them are left. 

[xbauks]

See, I'm taking that another way and assuming that the Unmade are Odium's version of Heralds, people torn apart until just the qualities he wanted in them are left.

Mr T's epigraphs say otherwise. They mention that the unmade are spren. One of them is responsible for the death rattles. Another one for the thrill.

[Argent]

I like the original theory - and it is further supported by the fact that the listeners seem far more in line with the native Rosharan flora and fauna (though mostly fauna, really). They can grow carapace - like pretty much every animal out there - and can also change forms by going out in a highstorm, much like the greatshells (and the chulls!) do when they pupate. 

[Vortaan]

I like the original theory - and it is further supported by the fact that the listeners seem far more in line with the native Rosharan flora and fauna (though mostly fauna, really). They can grow carapace - like pretty much every animal out there - and can also change forms by going out in a highstorm, much like the greatshells (and the chulls!) do when they pupate. 

 

The only thing is... the Listeners have orange blood, and most Rosharan fauna seems to have purple blood. That indicates a different origin to me. Also, if I were Cultivation making a sentient species to exist on Roshar, I would certainly mimic the local life forms in order for them to be more successful.

[PorridgeBrick]

Certain insects have greenish blood. Are they from a different planet than us? They can also have clear blood. Does that mean they're from a different planet than the other insects?

Edited March 8, 2014 by PorridgeBrick