theory [OB] Coup D'etat

[I'mAStickFanClub]

So I was reading The Dictator's Handbook and was suddenly struck with a horrible thought. Kaladin is PERFECTLY positioned to take control of Urithiru and Alethkar from Dalinar and Jasnah. We know that he would never do this because we can see his inner thoughts, but the other characters can't and so might assume that the picture of him as the devoted and incorruptible scion of Dalinar is a facade (like Amaram's was) and act accordingly. Here are the facts as I see them:

1) Kaladin is the most potent warrior among the Radiants when it will count.  This is straightforward, not only is he the only one with military training and a shardblade (sorry Dalinar) but he is shown to be a brilliantly gifted fighter in addition. You can (and probably should) make the argument that Jasnah would be more useful on a battlefield with all she can do with soulcasting, but when facing other Radiants who are resistant to soulcasting because of their investiture, the edge goes to Kaladin.

2)The Windrunners are the only order in Urithiru with multiple Radiants. This is not likely to change soon either. Rather, they are likely to expand their lead going forward based on their efforts at recruitment.

3)The Windrunners have dozens of squires to supplement their ranks. Aside from Shallan's three, they are the only order with squires at all and having a bunch of people who can surgebind is the sort of thing that might be useful.

4) There are 1000-ish bridgemen with top notch military training, equipment, and discipline. Moreover, they serve as the only bodyguards for Dalinar, his family, and some of his important commanders and brightlords. We saw how that can be potentially dangerous in the scene between Dalinar and Elhokar near the end of WoK.

5) The Windrunners and the bridgemen are not loyal to Alethkar, Dalinar, or the new queen, but Kaladin personally. History says this doesn't end well. Rome especially got into massive trouble when their armies became more loyal to their commanders than the state.

At least some of these things should be known by the more politically savvy members of the Alethi court. Jasnah specifically has shown a proficiency at the cloak and dagger side of politics during her scene in WoR when she met Ivory for the first time and when the whole Renarin business at the end of OB occurred. It seems at least possible that she considers him a threat to her family dynasty and is contemplating a way to "take care" of him. That is a worst case scenario, but it seems unlikely to me that there won't be some sort of conflict in this area. I would love to hear what everyone thinks.

[mosaab]

A month ago I would have agreed with you. A month ago I would have loved this kind of discussion. But after Oathbringer I feel like that's just wasted effort because the author doesn't care about those kind of plots, you can feel how he avoids those kind of character confrontations, in how much the information between the cast is shared off-screen, in how much these characters don't know about each other and worse don't even try to discover. How is it even possible for jasnah to return and not have one direct and private conversation with kaladin? It is ridiculous to her sensibilities as a political actor.

You can see no more proof of this than in how Seth joins our cast of heroes and nobody has any kind of actual human response, the same thing when jasnah dies and everyone react like a shipment of food was lost, and not that the kings sister has been murdered.

 

 

The Devine attributes of a windrunner is protecting,leading.

The Devine attributes of a bondsmith is pious,guiding.

Dalinar has trouble giving up authority, now that his main book has came and went, it seem like the perfect next struggle in the same type that we see kal & shall struggle with after their books. 

Edited December 23, 2017 by Greywatch
Remember to edit your posts, not double post.

[Scion of the Mists]

31 minutes ago, mosaab said:

when jasnah dies and everyone react like a shipment of food was lost, and not that the kings sister has been murdered.

Did you read Words of Radiance? Navani refused to even talk to Shallan after she broke the news. 

[Patrick Star]

Dude, you make some good points, but I'm afraid that all you've done is thrown the Jasnadin shippers a giant bone

[I'mAStickFanClub]

1 hour ago, mosaab said:

A month ago I would have agreed with you. A month ago I would have loved this kind of discussion. But after Oathbringer I feel like that's just wasted effort because the author doesn't care about those kind of plots, you can feel how he avoids those kind of character confrontations, in how much the information between the cast is shared off-screen, in how much these characters don't know about each other and worse don't even try to discover. How is it even possible for jasnah to return and not have one direct and private conversation with kaladin? It is ridiculous to her sensibilities as a political actor.

You can see no more proof of this than in how Seth joins our cast of heroes and nobody has any kind of actual human response, the same thing when jasnah dies and everyone react like a shipment of food was lost, and not that the kings sister has been murdered.

 

Some of the interaction did leave me wanting more. I was one of the people that got annoyed at how much infighting Rand and his allies did in Wheel of Time and even I wanted more conflict here. Almost makes me want the SA novella to be about intrigue in the tower instead of Wandersail, and I LOVE Rysn.

 

 

35 minutes ago, Patrick Star said:

Dude, you make some good points, but I'm afraid that all you've done is thrown the Jasnadin shippers a giant bone

That is NOT what I meant by "take care" of him. 

Edited December 23, 2017 by Greywatch
Remember to edit your posts, not double post.

[mosaab]

4 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Did you read Words of Radiance? Navani refused to even talk to Shallan after she broke the news. 

She's the king's sister, the entire kingdom should be grieving (or at least make a show of it). There should be investigation, adolin goes about flirting with shallan like the news mean nothing to him.

 

[Vortaan]

5 hours ago, I'mAStickFanClub said:

So I was reading The Dictator's Handbook and was suddenly struck with a horrible thought. Kaladin is PERFECTLY positioned to take control of Urithiru and Alethkar from Dalinar and Jasnah. We know that he would never do this because we can see his inner thoughts, but the other characters can't and so might assume that the picture of him as the devoted and incorruptible scion of Dalinar is a facade (like Amaram's was) and act accordingly. Here are the facts as I see them:

1) Kaladin is the most potent warrior among the Radiants when it will count.  This is straightforward, not only is he the only one with military training and a shardblade (sorry Dalinar) but he is shown to be a brilliantly gifted fighter in addition. You can (and probably should) make the argument that Jasnah would be more useful on a battlefield with all she can do with soulcasting, but when facing other Radiants who are resistant to soulcasting because of their investiture, the edge goes to Kaladin.

2)The Windrunners are the only order in Urithiru with multiple Radiants. This is not likely to change soon either. Rather, they are likely to expand their lead going forward based on their efforts at recruitment.

3)The Windrunners have dozens of squires to supplement their ranks. Aside from Shallan's three, they are the only order with squires at all and having a bunch of people who can surgebind is the sort of thing that might be useful.

4) There are 1000-ish bridgemen with top notch military training, equipment, and discipline. Moreover, they serve as the only bodyguards for Dalinar, his family, and some of his important commanders and brightlords. We saw how that can be potentially dangerous in the scene between Dalinar and Elhokar near the end of WoK.

5) The Windrunners and the bridgemen are not loyal to Alethkar, Dalinar, or the new queen, but Kaladin personally. History says this doesn't end well. Rome especially got into massive trouble when their armies became more loyal to their commanders than the state.

At least some of these things should be known by the more politically savvy members of the Alethi court. Jasnah specifically has shown a proficiency at the cloak and dagger side of politics during her scene in WoR when she met Ivory for the first time and when the whole Renarin business at the end of OB occurred. It seems at least possible that she considers him a threat to her family dynasty and is contemplating a way to "take care" of him. That is a worst case scenario, but it seems unlikely to me that there won't be some sort of conflict in this area. I would love to hear what everyone thinks.

The highprinces will not follow Kaladin. The kings and queens will not follow Kaladin. So in point of fact, Kaladin is actually in a terrible position right now to take control of Urithuru. It would be a political blunder on par with the assassination of Julius Caesar.

[I'mAStickFanClub]

7 minutes ago, mosaab said:

She's the king's sister, the entire kingdom should be grieving (or at least make a show of it). There should be investigation, adolin goes about flirting with shallan like the news mean nothing to him.

 

Maybe the charges of heresy had more impact than we were led to believe. The Ardents, as the religious authority in Alethkar, would have been responsible for leading the country in prayer and mourning following the death of a princess. For Jasnah they probably wouldn't bother.

2 minutes ago, Vortaan said:

The highprinces will not follow Kaladin. The kings and queens will not follow Kaladin. So in point of fact, Kaladin is actually in a terrible position right now to take control of Urithuru. It would be a political blunder on par with the assassination of Julius Caesar.

Kaladin would never even think to take control. And if he did, you are of course correct that it would go south immediately. The highprinces would reject his rule and send their forces to depose him. He might be able to hold the tower for a while with the men loyal to him now if he was clever and ruled like an autocrat, but eventually they would seek outside help from places like Azir, and he would be killed or forced out. Your reference to Julius Caesar is a good one, but at the end of the day he is still stabbed to death in the senate. This would still likely mean the end of the Kholins, so the usurper's position being untenable after the coup would be a cold comfort to the royal family. And that is basically what my theory is about. If the threat is perceived as real by the important political actors and they act on it, it can have real and dire consequences, even if Kaladin is neither ambitious enough or stupid enough to go through with it.

I am mainly talking about Jasnah here. She is a politically savvy person and will likely make a great queen but she doesn't have perfect information. No one does. She doesn't know Kaladin at all really. Only that Dalinar trusts him. But Dalinar trusted Sadeas right up until his betrayal nearly doom their entire house. So she has to act on incomplete information which is always a gamble and it COULD go very badly.

[+Harrycrapper]

I disagree with the notion the other orders won't be expanding soon. There's already a bunch of people who have been bonding spren and there will probably be more now that Nalan isn't trying to kill every surgebinder. Shallan has squires already too. I could see the Elsecallers having stalled recruitment due to the lack of charisma Jasnah displays. However, I don't see us having another book with this level of conflict with Odium having only the handful of Radiants we have now and just some extra Windrunners.

[Patrick Star]

4 hours ago, I'mAStickFanClub said:

That is NOT what I meant by "take care" of him. 

Of course not, Jasnah's a logical individual.  I'm sure she'd do her due diligence before preemptively assassinating Kaladin.

You know, get a taste for his personality, likes and dislikes, take him out somewhere alone to get some privacy for her examination, try to get as much face-to-face interaction with him as possible to maximize information gathered, and just overall get to know him better.

Wait, what was I talking about again?

[I'mAStickFanClub]

1 hour ago, Harrycrapper said:

I disagree with the notion the other orders won't be expanding soon. There's already a bunch of people who have been bonding spren and there will probably be more now that Nalan isn't trying to kill every surgebinder. Shallan has squires already too. I could see the Elsecallers having stalled recruitment due to the lack of charisma Jasnah displays. However, I don't see us having another book with this level of conflict with Odium having only the handful of Radiants we have now and just some extra Windrunners.

They will probably start expanding, but the Windrunners have the advantage of a significant head start. Also they were the most numerous order back when the Knights radiant were originally founded.

1 hour ago, Patrick Star said:

Of course not, Jasnah's a logical individual.  I'm sure she'd do her due diligence before preemptively assassinating Kaladin.

You know, get a taste for his personality, likes and dislikes, take him out somewhere alone to get some privacy for her examination, try to get as much face-to-face interaction with him as possible to maximize information gathered, and just overall get to know him better.

Wait, what was I talking about again?

The undeniable logic of wanting a hot piece of the brooding bridge captain... I think.

[Heir of the Void]

1 hour ago, mosaab said:

She's the king's sister, the entire kingdom should be grieving (or at least make a show of it). There should be investigation, adolin goes about flirting with shallan like the news mean nothing to him.

She was also a heretic, and it does not appear that she was particularly well liked. I'm not really sure how much it actually would mean to Adolin, in particular; they're too far apart in age to have conceivably been raised together, and Jasnah seems to have spent most of her time away from court. Most likely he didn't see her death as being much more personally relevant than the death of some distant cousin from a Cadet branch of the family.

6 hours ago, Patrick Star said:

Dude, you make some good points, but I'm afraid that all you've done is thrown the Jasnadin shippers a giant bone

I need to see this happen.

Quote

JASNAH: Kaladin, you can't do this.

KALADIN: Stand aside. The Workers Revolution cannot be stopped!

JASNAH: You'll doom us all! Odium will conquer Roshar!

KALADIN: I will not fall for your bourgeois intelligentsia lies. Anger and hatred mean noting to man brimming with Class Consciousness!

JASNAH: But Kaladin... I love you.

(THAT ROMANTIC TITANIC SONG begins playing)

KALADIN: I know.

(TEFT frantically lashes his BANNER OF THE PROLETERIOT over the camera)

PATTERN: NO MATING!

I'm not sure what that was; I'm sorry.

[Cosmé]

The Dictator’s handbook is a good book.  

Under the “rules for rulers” proposed in the book, Kaladin would not be a good candidate to lead the radiants. Currently, the Knights Radiant and Alethkar are one in the same, as the Alethi center of power is also in Urithiru, and most of the Radiants currently gathered are loyal to the Alethi ruling house. To rule, Kaladin, or any other successor, would need to take control of the keys to power, who are the Alethi generals, high princes, high lords, and ardents. Kaladin, while technically a light eyes while using the Syl blade, is still socially a darkeyes. He also has forged no political relationships with the keys to power. He would replace hem, and they know it. The Alethi armies could destroy the bridge men, and as Dalinar reminds us, Shard Bearers can’t hold ground.

Jasnah would be a much better candidate to seize power, because she has legitimacy, connections, and political savvy. The Highprinces probably trust her more than Dalinar. Of course, she’s already number 2 in the Alethi/Urithiru power structure, and I don’t think she wants the power. Remember, while these rules apply very well to real politics, they don’t apply in a fictional world unless the author wants them to.

[I'mAStickFanClub]

12 minutes ago, Cosmé said:

The Dictator’s handbook is a good book.  

Under the “rules for rulers” proposed in the book, Kaladin would not be a good candidate to lead the radiants. Currently, the Knights Radiant and Alethkar are one in the same, as the Alethi center of power is also in Urithiru, and most of the Radiants currently gathered are loyal to the Alethi ruling house. To rule, Kaladin, or any other successor, would need to take control of the keys to power, who are the Alethi generals, high princes, high lords, and ardents. Kaladin, while technically a light eyes while using the Syl blade, is still socially a darkeyes. He also has forged no political relationships with the keys to power. He would replace hem, and they know it. The Alethi armies could destroy the bridge men, and as Dalinar reminds us, Shard Bearers can’t hold ground.

Jasnah would be a much better candidate to seize power, because she has legitimacy, connections, and political savvy. The Highprinces probably trust her more than Dalinar. Of course, she’s already number 2 in the Alethi/Urithiru power structure, and I don’t think she wants the power. Remember, while these rules apply very well to real politics, they don’t apply in a fictional world unless the author wants them to.

It is a good book. Thing I have to keep reminding myself is that the Alethkar government's keys to power are not going to perfectly match up with ones in our world. For instance the military serves dual purposes of rules enforcement and force-projection/defense which are usually separate keys. Also instead of having a proper bureaucratic class or tax collectors they have the Ardents which collects fees from the nobility for their use of soulcasters as a revenue base. This is the line of weakness in the current regime that could be most easily exploited. The church has denounced both Jasnah and Dalinar as heretics and one would imagine that they would be happy to see the two of them removed from the picture. Someone like Kaladin, who has an excellent reputation among the military rank and file (obviously you'll need to purge any commanders and highprinces loyal to the old regime), and who could make public shows of Vorin devotion could in theory use the church to attain legitimacy after a takeover. Though Kaladin will never pull something like this I am nearly certain that the church will at some point in the series try to overthrow the Kholins and install a figurehead sympathetic to their interests.

[Cosmé]

8 minutes ago, I'mAStickFanClub said:

It is a good book. Thing I have to keep reminding myself is that the Alethkar government's keys to power are not going to perfectly match up with ones in our world. For instance the military serves dual purposes of rules enforcement and force-projection/defense which are usually separate keys. Also instead of having a proper bureaucratic class or tax collectors they have the Ardents which collects fees from the nobility for their use of soulcasters as a revenue base. This is the line of weakness in the current regime that could be most easily exploited. The church has denounced both Jasnah and Dalinar as heretics and one would imagine that they would be happy to see the two of them removed from the picture. Someone like Kaladin, who has an excellent reputation among the military rank and file (obviously you'll need to purge any commanders and highprinces loyal to the old regime), and who could make public shows of Vorin devotion could in theory use the church to attain legitimacy after a takeover. Though Kaladin will never pull something like this I am nearly certain that the church will at some point in the series try to overthrow the Kholins and install a figurehead sympathetic to their interests.

It’s possible that we’ll see the Virgin church try something. The main obstacles to them seeking power are their bad reputation since the Hierocracy, and the fact that Ardents are owned by their lords, and probably have much stronger ties to them than the central church. They also don’t have any military power. The society is very conservative but there is no history of church control over the state since the Hierocracy. Jasnah is and always has been an atheist, but that doesn’t seem to have been a major problem for her politically. A problem yes, but not a serious one. She’s still spoken of, even in Way of Kings, as one of the most powerful women in Roshar.

On the subject of coups, this is basically exactly what Sadeas was attempting. Didn’t turn out well for him though...

One person we know who is trying a coup is our friend Mr T. I wonder if we will see him find religion soon.

[TheWarriorPoet]

16 hours ago, I'mAStickFanClub said:

So I was reading The Dictator's Handbook and was suddenly struck with a horrible thought. Kaladin is PERFECTLY positioned to take control of Urithiru and Alethkar from Dalinar and Jasnah. We know that he would never do this because we can see his inner thoughts, but the other characters can't and so might assume that the picture of him as the devoted and incorruptible scion of Dalinar is a facade (like Amaram's was) and act accordingly. Here are the facts as I see them:

1) Kaladin is the most potent warrior among the Radiants when it will count.  This is straightforward, not only is he the only one with military training and a shardblade (sorry Dalinar) but he is shown to be a brilliantly gifted fighter in addition. You can (and probably should) make the argument that Jasnah would be more useful on a battlefield with all she can do with soulcasting, but when facing other Radiants who are resistant to soulcasting because of their investiture, the edge goes to Kaladin.

2)The Windrunners are the only order in Urithiru with multiple Radiants. This is not likely to change soon either. Rather, they are likely to expand their lead going forward based on their efforts at recruitment.

3)The Windrunners have dozens of squires to supplement their ranks. Aside from Shallan's three, they are the only order with squires at all and having a bunch of people who can surgebind is the sort of thing that might be useful.

4) There are 1000-ish bridgemen with top notch military training, equipment, and discipline. Moreover, they serve as the only bodyguards for Dalinar, his family, and some of his important commanders and brightlords. We saw how that can be potentially dangerous in the scene between Dalinar and Elhokar near the end of WoK.

5) The Windrunners and the bridgemen are not loyal to Alethkar, Dalinar, or the new queen, but Kaladin personally. History says this doesn't end well. Rome especially got into massive trouble when their armies became more loyal to their commanders than the state.

At least some of these things should be known by the more politically savvy members of the Alethi court. Jasnah specifically has shown a proficiency at the cloak and dagger side of politics during her scene in WoR when she met Ivory for the first time and when the whole Renarin business at the end of OB occurred. It seems at least possible that she considers him a threat to her family dynasty and is contemplating a way to "take care" of him. That is a worst case scenario, but it seems unlikely to me that there won't be some sort of conflict in this area. I would love to hear what everyone thinks.

I love conspiracy theories but this one is completely out of the league, as to the protagonist of this theory is Kaladin, who bonded a honorspren. Now as soon as Kal even thinks about doing this the bond will be snapped (This almost happened when he turned against Elhokar), as soon as this happens he cease to be a KR anymore and in that case, dalinar can imprison him easily or Jashnah (who is considered his bride to be by other conspiracy theorists) will have him soulcasted into dirt without any trouble. 

This conspiracy theory really doesn't hold any ground to support it. HOID is the one who invented Bitcoin might be a better theory than this   

[I'mAStickFanClub]

11 hours ago, Cosmé said:

It’s possible that we’ll see the Virgin church try something. The main obstacles to them seeking power are their bad reputation since the Hierocracy, and the fact that Ardents are owned by their lords, and probably have much stronger ties to them than the central church. They also don’t have any military power. The society is very conservative but there is no history of church control over the state since the Hierocracy. Jasnah is and always has been an atheist, but that doesn’t seem to have been a major problem for her politically. A problem yes, but not a serious one. She’s still spoken of, even in Way of Kings, as one of the most powerful women in Roshar.

On the subject of coups, this is basically exactly what Sadeas was attempting. Didn’t turn out well for him though...

One person we know who is trying a coup is our friend Mr T. I wonder if we will see him find religion soon.

Yeah that is frighteningly plausible. I am a little upset I didn't already think of it myself.

4 hours ago, TheWarriorPoet said:

I love conspiracy theories but this one is completely out of the league, as to the protagonist of this theory is Kaladin, who bonded a honorspren. Now as soon as Kal even thinks about doing this the bond will be snapped (This almost happened when he turned against Elhokar), as soon as this happens he cease to be a KR anymore and in that case, dalinar can imprison him easily or Jashnah (who is considered his bride to be by other conspiracy theorists) will have him soulcasted into dirt without any trouble. 

This conspiracy theory really doesn't hold any ground to support it. HOID is the one who invented Bitcoin might be a better theory than this   

The theory isn't about Kaladin taking over. He won't. Its about people's justified paranoia in the aftermath of Sadeas and Amaram combined with their lack of information about this up-jumped darkeyes slave who is becoming quite popular and appears to be VERY well positioned with his men in the tower leading to misunderstandings and conflict.

[Bigmikey357]

I can see a scenario where someone tries to get terribly pragmatic in regards to Kaladin and his growing power base. Nobles are funny in that way. They don't like new players in their great game; those are always seen with suspicion. 

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

On 12/23/2017 at 4:15 PM, mosaab said:

You can see no more proof of this than in how Seth joins our cast of heroes and nobody has any kind of actual human response, the same thing when jasnah dies and everyone react like a shipment of food was lost, and not that the kings sister has been murdered.

This was the strangest transition for me as. Well . Dalinar and Adolin and by default Jasnah ( only because she is Gavilar oldest child and I assume she respected her father greatly ) spent the last 6 years hating the Assassin in white. He comes up and says I serve Dalinar Kholin and no one bats an eye??? Dalinar changed his whole personality behind the death of his brother . This confrontation should of been a bit more passionate than that. Even if they waited until the threat of Amaram’s army had passed . As soon as that was over I expected  a Szeth “ u got sum splaining ta dooooo” was anybody else let down by this non-confrontation .

 

Kaladin is probably the last person Jasnah would worry about . Even though he holds the rank of Captain , he is more like the 1st Seargant of the army. He is most comfortable leading troops and has zero ambition for political power. Amaram ,before he died and possibly Thadekar are more the type of personality that Jasnsh would be most on guard for ! 

         And u saw first hand how she handled Amaram. The scene with her glowing hand facing down Amaram still gives me shivers ( what was she going to turn him into ? A pile of feces) . No my friend Kaladin is the wrong personality type. There is not a better man to trust guarding the Royal family.

[Gasper]

Kaladin is extremely loyal, both too his men and to the Kohlin family. That is one thing that prevents him from taking over. Secondly, his personality is all wrong, Kaladin is a servant leader, not a dictator. He leads by serving his men and the people around him, which is also one of the reasons that he is having a hard time swearing the fourth oath. 

As for Jasnah and Kaladin getting together, it would be a nice flip of the typical Boy is at least five years older than girl Branderson trope. If not for love, then to get a large order under her "command", Jasnah has a fair chance of marrying Kaladin.

[Diomedes]

9 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Kaladin is probably the last person Jasnah would worry about . Even though he holds the rank of Captain , he is more like the 1st Seargant of the army. He is most comfortable leading troops and has zero ambition for political power. Amaram ,before he died and possibly Thadekar are more the type of personality that Jasnsh would be most on guard for ! 

         And u saw first hand how she handled Amaram. The scene with her glowing hand facing down Amaram still gives me shivers ( what was she going to turn him into ? A pile of feces) . No my friend Kaladin is the wrong personality type. There is not a better man to trust guarding the Royal family.

I honestly don`t know about that. Kaladin´s loyalty is bound to a condition: That he agrees with the way things are handeld, especially the ways the parshmen are  treated. Imagine this scenario: Queen Jasnah orders a certain town full of parshmen to be executed, because they cannot be trusted and besides everyone is starving already. Don`t say this is a thing Jasnah would not do. She seriously considered full on parshmen genocide to combat the problem with the Fused.   

What would human-spren-of-Honor-Kaladin do then? I think he might revolt, refuse to follow orders and storm off. I don´t think he would make himself king. This is not Kaladin`s style. His power-base and claim to the throne is also way to weak.      

 Besides, he has always had problems with authority.

The original theory might have more merit than it seems. I definitly see a lot of tension between a Queen Jasnah and Captain Kaladin, leader of an independent, half magical fighting force, that owes loyalty not to the Queen but to Kaladin himself.  

 

Edit:

 @I'mAStickFanClub 5) The Windrunners and the bridgemen are not loyal to Alethkar, Dalinar, or the new queen, but Kaladin personally. History says this doesn't end well. Rome especially got into massive trouble when their armies became more loyal to their commanders than the state.

Bridge Four would be the equivalent of the roman pretorian guard, and Kaladin to the pretorian prefect, who were famous for killing lots of emperors and making their own emperors, who suited their purpose.  

Edited July 2, 2018 by Diomedes

[mosaab]

Let's consider it from a doylist perspective, what is kaladins role in the narrative ?

He is the first main character introduced, he is bonded to the honor spren who are named after the Shard, he is the leader of the order of WINDRUNNERS, an order that is patroned by Jezrien, king of heralds who tought mankind leadership, his Devine attributes are protecting and leading.

Kaladin isn't going to be some King, but neither will he be a general on some battlefield. But kings & general's will be answerable to him. 

 

[NoiseSpren]

I can see Dalinar having troubles with world authorities. I can also see four-oaths-Kaladin solving them. Like a boss.

Edit: Dalinar is not trtrying to lead them. He wants to guide them. But when they act stupidly? Time for leader, time for King Kal (yeah, I have been infected by Jasnadin recently)...

Edited July 3, 2018 by NoiseSpren