theory Skybreaker Theory

[Bramble Thorn]

I was wondering about that passage too, but the simplest explanation in my opinion is that you don't have to be a Surgebinder to train a Surgebinder. Simply knowing about what Surgebinders can do, their combinations, etc. would be incredibly helpful, compared to Kaladin and Shallan's trying to figure things out from scratch.

 

Definitely Possible. Dalinar was able to inhale Stormlight first try merely from Kaladin's and Shallan's off hand descriptions. If the "Skybreakers" or the Sons of Honor or Ghost bloods have access to the proper body of knowledge, they could eliminate a lot of trial and error.

 

hmm i felt realy odd.

 

im not sure if this Nalan is realy who he said he is. reading it, felt evil, wrong.

i would put this one up as one of Odiums.

 

would be nice if it was different =) realy would like Szeth to get some revenge.

 

Tanavast thinks one of the Heralds might be a traitor. Also, I see less "Perversion of Justice" and more "Batshit Insane" I do not see many of his Justifications as even within the Letter of the Law at all. He killed Ym for being the Unknowing Accomplice to a Murder another 40 years ago.

 

He himself is more guilty then that, because he knew for a fact that The legal foundation to Sveth being declared Truthless was invalid. Thus the Legal requirement to Szeth to obey the edicts of the Stone Shamans re the Oathstone holder is also invalid. He then proclaimed himself as one of the gods of his religion and his people. This means he personalty has the authority implicit in being worshipped to overrule the stone shamans, or invalidate their authority. He could have done this at any time. He chose not to. He is a willing accomplice to every Death Szeth perpetrated once he became aware of Szsths circumstances and chose not to act. Any retribution levied against the Stone Shamans should lawfully be levied against him as well.

 

But I do not think the law really matters to him anymore, not really.

 

But how did they know Shallan was a surgebinder? Mr. T saw her almost die from simple poison. Nothing a bit of stormlight would not be able to heal. 

 

I guess this is also a good question - can stormlight heal poison? if so, why was Jasnah constantly soulcasting her food? Not to be seen glowing, or she does not know about stormlight healing?

 

For the same reason she does not just eat it and wait until she has been poisoned to soulcast it to an inert substance:

 

1. Depend on how fast it works, it could render her unable to draw in stormlight before she notices the poison and knows she needs to take in stormlight.

 

2. She does not know how fast/strong/deadly any poison might be until she has already ingested it.

 

Also in regards to stormlight healing...

1. Stormlight could almost certainly heal the damage poison causes, but she might need to keep stormlight in her system in her system until all the poison has reacted and burned off. 

 

2. Depending on the strength of the poison, she might need to hold enough be visibly glowing to heal herself faster than it damages her.

[The Count he/him]

Hmm... I am mixed on this theory.

 

On the one hand, I think that you are correct that the Skybreakers are the order that did not betray their oaths.

 

However I think that over the intervening millennia under Nalan's control, they have lost their surgebinding powers and are now just a society with regular dead shardblades and great knowledge.

 

The main evidence for this is:

 

1) Nalan explicitly statesto Lift that surgebinders must be destroyed to prevent the desolation. It seems contra to that principle that he would have a society made up of individuals that could cause a desolation.

 

I suppose in his mind he could argue that his Order are the only ones "honourable" enough to have powers but I think this is a bit thin.

 

2) The principles under which Nalan is now operating definitely do not follow the law appropriately. In the first, he is not trying to uphold the law indiscriminately, he is using the law to kill surgebinders. In the cases we have seen, the punishments do not fit the crimes and worse perpetrators are left free.

 

I do not think a spren interested in the rule of law and the pursuit of justice would bond with a person acting under the ideals that Nalan is promoting in his corrupted state.

 

My guess is that Nalan took control of the Skybreakers when they still had powers and that they have lost them over the intervening millennia as he as slowly corrupted them.

 

I am kind of leaning toward the idea that Nalan an his crew will be taken down by a true Skybreaker Knight arising among their ranks somehow.

[dionysus]

To add to the discussion of whether Nalan is really pursuing justice, it must be pointed out that almost every concept of justice acknowledges the role of intent. In the case of causing a death, most criminal justice system broadly distinguishe between accidents, negligent accidents, self-defense, passion driver murder, and pre-meditated murder. For stuff like unforeseen accidents, there is no punishment. Negligent accidents, there are small punishments, and so on. 

 

If Lift actually is bringing about a desolation by surgebinding, a just system would not meet out her punishment as the same as for one who intended to bring about a desolation.

[Devo]

Why do people think Helaran is a Skybreaker (genuine or in name only)? It seemed to me that he was a Ghostblood, since the Ghostbloods are trying to kill Amaram, and Amaram himself believed that Helaran was sent by the Ghostbloods. Is there some reason not to think that Helaran was a Ghostblood? Is there any reason to think he was a Skybreaker?

[Moogle]

Why do people think Helaran is a Skybreaker (genuine or in name only)? It seemed to me that he was a Ghostblood, since the Ghostbloods are trying to kill Amaram, and Amaram himself believed that Helaran was sent by the Ghostbloods. Is there some reason not to think that Helaran was a Ghostblood? Is there any reason to think he was a Skybreaker?

 

Here's the quote:

 

She frowned, holding her Shardblade, wavering.  “Why?” she finally asked.

“Because, you are ignorant.” Mraize stepped closer to her , towering over her. “You don’t know who we are. You don’t know what we’re trying to accomplish. You don’t know much of anything at all, Veil. Why did your father join us? Why did your brother seek out the Skybreakers? I have done some research, you see. I have answers for you.” Surprisingly, he turned from her and walked toward the doorway. “I will give you time to consider. You seem to think that your newfound place among the Radiants makes you unfit for our numbers, but I see it differently, as does my babsk. Let Shallan Davar be a Radiant, conformist and noble. Let Veil come to us.” He stopped by the doorway. “And let her find truth.”

[Numb]

That doesn't actually confirm that he wasn't a Ghostblood nor does it confirm that he is a Skybreaker. All it says is that he was looking for the skybreakers for some reason. Whether he joined them and got a blade from them or not is taking a bit of a leap I think. From all we have seen from the Skybreakers it seems like Nalan is rather involved in the capture of individuals and he is always protrayed as a constable. Riding out into a battle and singling one person seems completely against what we have seen so far.

 

I think the more likely theory is that he was seeking out the Skybreakers to get justice either for his father or something else. Hoid also states that he is a man doing what he thinks is right. 

 

edit: I also think we can rule him out for being a Radiant since killing a Radiant might not drop their shardblade as they didn't break their oaths to kill the spren. Syl even states she remembers helping other people in the past so it seems likely the spren doesn't die if the person dies.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Numb

[Moogle]

That doesn't actually confirm that he wasn't a Ghostblood nor does it confirm that he is a Skybreaker. All it says is that he was looking for the skybreakers for some reason. Whether he joined them and got a blade from them or not is taking a bit of a leap I think. From all we have seen from the Skybreakers it seems like Nalan is rather involved in the capture of individuals and he is always protrayed as a constable. Riding out into a battle and singling one person seems completely against what we have seen so far.

 

I think the more likely theory is that he was seeking out the Skybreakers to get justice either for his father or something else. Hoid also states that he is a man doing what he thinks is right. 

 

edit: I also think we can rule him out for being a Radiant since killing a Radiant might not drop their shardblade as they didn't break their oaths to kill the spren. Syl even states she remembers helping other people in the past so it seems likely the spren doesn't die if the person dies.

 

 

Father sat down in a dining chair, face still pale. “How? A Shardblade. Where?” He glanced suddenly upward. “But no. It’s different. Your new friends? They trust you with this wealth?”

“We have an important work to do,” Helaran said, turning and striding to Shallan. He laid a hand fondly on her shoulder. He continued more softly. “I will tell you of it someday, Sister. It is good to hear your voice again before I leave.”

 

This 'important work' certainly sounds like killing Surgebinders to me. Amaram was trying to bring back the Heralds (and thus Surgebinders), so naturally the Skybreakers tried to kill him. The case for the Ghostbloods being connected to Helaran is rather weak, I think, and based only on Amaram's assumption.

[Shardlet he/him]

This is something of a thread necromancy, but I was rereading and found this quote:

 

 

Taravangian believes Shallan is a Surgebinder and that her brother trained her.

 

This makes it incredibly likely that the Skybreakers are actual Surgebinders, Helaran included.

 

I have to agree with Seloun here, Moogle.  If Helaran was a KR with a live radiantblade, then the blade at least would have been glowing if not the armor as well.  (The armor presumably could have been regular plate rather than active radiant plate).

[Devo]

Thanks for the quote, Moogle. With that, I'd agree he was involved with the modern Skybreakers, which only adds to the reasons to think that both of Shallan's parents were Skybreakers in the past as well.

 

Consider the following:

 

Shallan's parents were Skybreakers.

Shallan's mother wanted to kill Shallan because she was a Surgebinder, and she thought he would agree because they were part of the same cause.

Shallan's father wasn't so committed to the Skybreaker cause and opposed her.

Shallan's father killed her mother's associate.

Shallan killed her mother with Pattern.

Shallan's father took the blame for killing her mother and never told anyone what Shallan was because the Skybreakers would come after her.

Helaran believed that his father killed his mother and joined the Skybreakers, possibly because he knew of his mother's association but didn't know the whole truth.

 

In the future, Shallan may learn the nature of the group her mother was involved in and of the Skybreakers (or they may be the same per the theory above), this could lead to her feeling disillusioned with Helaran (which is good for the Shaladin shippers out there).

[Seloun]

I have to agree with Seloun here, Moogle.  If Helaran was a KR with a live radiantblade, then the blade at least would have been glowing if not the armor as well.  (The armor presumably could have been regular plate rather than active radiant plate).

 

Not to overemphasize this, but in 'Safe Things' (19):

 

 

Something formed in Helaran’s hand, a line of mist that coalesced into silvery steel. A Blade some six feet long, curved and thick, with the side that wasn’t sharp rising into a shape like burning flames or perhaps ripples of water. It had a gemstone set at the pommel, and as light reflected off the metal, the ridges seemed to move.

 

Helaran was a Shardbearer. Stormfather! How? When?

 

In particular, the Shardblade has the typical gemstone on the hilt for binding.

 

I'm pretty sure Mraize was being relatively honest about Helaran's affinity. If he'd been a Ghostblood, I would think that he would have used that as a lure for Shallan; given how much he knows about their family I would imagine he would know that she thinks very highly of him.

 

Re: Shallan's mother was a Skybreaker - I see two problems with this:

 

1) How come no other Skybreakers show up? This can potentially be explained by for whatever reason her mother and her friend not telling anyone, but it seems really peculiar that they'd be part of some covert organization, die under mysterious circumstances, and never be investigated.

 

2) What crime did Shallan commit? This can potentially be explained by her mother not being as zealous about the 'law' aspect compared to Nalan (as we see in the Lift interlude), but it's another nagging issue. It's also possible that Shallan did commit some crime (we know basically nothing about her life pre-stabbing) but it's just another assumption that has to be made to make this theory work.

[Delightful]

In the Nalan's-group-are-non-Radiant-SkyBreakers camp:

 

In a time when people view the Radiants as evil betrayers, why would Helaran seek out a group of 'Radiants'?

 

Also, spren form a Nahel-bond and create the Radiants. One of the epigraphs spoke of the Heralds eventually accepting being the 'head' of  an Order of Radiants. Spren made Radiants by imitating the power that (Honour? The Shards?) gave the Heralds. So I really don't think Nalan, or any Herald, has the power to create a Radiant. Only spren. Therefore Szeth is now a 'Skybreaker' without a spren. So while the original Skybreakers may or may not have betrayed their oaths, I think there are two groups under the same name here: One is actual Radiants, the other is Nalan's cronies under the same name.

 

The only thing I see contradicting that is Taravangian's "well maybe her brother trained her." Very interesting, that.

[The Count he/him]

Training does not have to mean Suregbinding training.

The amount of knowledge that the Skybreakers would possess could be training enough to anyone.

Also Mr. T does not necessarily know that the head of the Skybreakers is a Herald. He could be misattributing Nalan's power with that of the Skybreakers in general.

And even then how would a Skybreaker train a lightweaver in the use of surges? Thee is no overlap there. The only training it would be would have to be non-surgebinding related.

Edit: on further thought, I think that Mr. T is displaying some gaps in his knowledge and understanding regarding surgebinding as a power.

Edited March 13, 2014 by The Count

[Moogle]

To revive this wonderful topic, we have a new WoB.
 
Source:

Q: Does Szeth have any Surgebinding powers . . . losing the honorblade?
A: He would not have any after losing the honorblade. However, he has been approached by a member of one of the orders. And so, it's entirely possible that you would see him going somewhere with that. He also has a very special sword, that does very special things.

 

Apparently, the Skybreakers (which included Helaran) are an actual Order. They're not just a splinter group lead by Nalan. I am fascinated.