[OB] Is Ulim the Spren in Gavilar's Sphere?

[Wit Beyond Measure she/her]

From the prologue where Gavilar tells Eshonai of their secret ways of trapping spren and how he wants to help her bring back her gods, giving her a sphere of unusually dark light:

Quote

“Our enslaved parshmen were once like you. Then we somehow robbed them of their ability to undergo the transformation. We did it by capturing a spren. An ancient, crucial spren.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 23). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

3

Quote

She stared at that terrible light, and—from the songs—knew it for what it was. The forms of power had been associated with a dark light, a light from the king of gods. She plucked the sphere off the table and went running.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (pp. 24-25). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

So what happened to this sphere Gavilar gave Eshonai?  That's the million-dollar question, right?  Along with the sphere Gavilar gave to Szeth. 

I'm wondering if Ulim could be the spren trapped in the sphere.  Eshonai does take the sphere.  Perhaps she hides it or throws it away (or gives it to the Five), but these paths might eventually lead to Venli.  Ulim, a spren the Fuzed (Ancient Ones) call the Envoy, did succeed in convincing and helping Venli to bring back stormform and eventually the Everstorm and the Fuzed.

[Patrick Star]

It's possible Ulim was in that sphere (the one that Eshonai grabbed), but it doesn't explain what was in the original sphere, the one that he gave to Szeth.

[RShara she/her]

One of them, at least, contained Yelig-Nar.

[Wit Beyond Measure she/her]

Brandon implied that Szeth's sphere's contents could be deduced by looking at Navani's journal translations, here.  
https://coppermind.net/wiki/Navani's_notebook

But I think we still need to know what type of gem it was that Gavilar gave to Szeth and what cut.  And I'm still not sure how we would then know the type of spren, but at least we'd know more.  Crystalline was perhaps the cut of that sphere?  I know it was described as crystalline.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Wit Beyond Measure

[Mutantspicy]

Are there actually two spheres? Eshonai ran from the room, but its unclear if she took the sphere with her.  Then Galivar realized the parshendi attempted to assasinate him he said dont let them have itl

 

Edited December 20, 2017 by Mutantspicy

[Leyrann]

1 hour ago, Mutantspicy said:

Are there actually two spheres? Eshonai ran from the room, but its unclear if she took the sphere with her.  Then Galivar realized the parshendi attempted to assasinate him he said dont let them have itl

 

In the quote it says she plucked the sphere from the table.

[+Child of Hodor]

9 hours ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Brandon implied that Szeth's sphere's contents could be deduced by looking at Navani's journal translations, here.  
https://coppermind.net/wiki/Navani's_notebook

But I think we still need to know what type of gem it was that Gavilar gave to Szeth and what cut.  And I'm still not sure how we would then know the type of spren, but at least we'd know more.  Crystalline was perhaps the cut of that sphere?  I know it was described as crystalline.

Yeah, it's really confusing to me. When I read crystalline sphere I thought it was round and made of a crystal-like substance. None of the cuts shown in her notebook pages look like what I am imagining. Szeth thinks of it as a sphere which to me wouldn't have points or sharp edges and all the illustrations do. The heat gem is the least pointy, but it is kind of smooshed and flat. I can't imagine Szeth looking at it and thinking "sphere". 

[Wit Beyond Measure she/her]

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

Yeah, it's really confusing to me. When I read crystalline sphere I thought it was round and made of a crystal-like substance. None of the cuts shown in her notebook pages look like what I am imagining. Szeth thinks of it as a sphere which to me wouldn't have points or sharp edges and all the illustrations do. The heat gem is the least pointy, but it is kind of smooshed and flat. I can't imagine Szeth looking at it and thinking "sphere". 

Most "spheres" (think Roshar currency) are gemstones inside glass spheres, http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Currency.  And now I'm intensely reminded of Shadesmar, where all objects in the physical realm are represented by itsy bitsy tiny replicas trapped inside of glass spheres:

Quote

Thousands upon thousands of glass beads, each smaller than a Stormlight sphere.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 827). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Objects fully in the physical realm (Roshar) are represented as miniatures inside of glass in the cognitive realm (Shadesmar). And objects fully in the cognitive realm (Shadesmar) - all of those enormous gemstones - are represented as miniatures inside of glass in the physical realm (Roshar) - as currency inside of little glass spheres.  Right?!!!  Wow, wow, wow! 

Sorry for the tangent!  But I always pictured Gavilar's two mystery spheres as gemstones trapped inside a glass sphere.  The cut of Szeth's gem would be crystalline while the sphere surrounding the gem would be perfectly round, perfectly spherical.  Capiche?  Or, as the Lopen would say, entiendo?

[+Child of Hodor]

2 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Most "spheres" (think Roshar currency) are gemstones inside glass spheres, http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Currency.  And now I'm intensely reminded of Shadesmar, where all objects in the physical realm are represented by itsy bitsy tiny replicas trapped inside of glass spheres:

Objects fully in the physical realm (Roshar) are represented as miniatures inside of glass in the cognitive realm (Shadesmar). And objects fully in the cognitive realm (Shadesmar) - all of those enormous gemstones - are represented as miniatures inside of glass in the physical realm (Roshar) - as currency inside of little glass spheres.  Right?!!!  Wow, wow, wow! 

Sorry for the tangent!  But I always pictured Gavilar's two mystery spheres as gemstones trapped inside a glass sphere.  The cut of Szeth's gem would be crystalline while the sphere surrounding the gem would be perfectly round, perfectly spherical.  Capiche?  Or, as the Lopen would say, entiendo?

That makes sense!

[RShara she/her]

I disagree.  "Crystalline sphere" I feel means a crystal of some kind in the shape of a sphere, not a regular money-type sphere.  Brandon chooses his words very carefully, and I think calling it a "crystalline sphere" is intentional phrasing.  Otherwise he would have used "A crystal in a sphere" or just "sphere".

Afaik, there's no gem cutting design that could be called "crystalline".

Navani's notebook discusses how fabrials involve gems with spren trapped inside, which, I think, is the hint Brandon was talking about.  He also says that the answer to what the sphere was is in Book 3, which really implies that it was Yelig-nar.

[Patrick Star]

15 minutes ago, RShara said:

I disagree.  "Crystalline sphere" I feel means a crystal of some kind in the shape of a sphere, not a regular money-type sphere.  Brandon chooses his words very carefully, and I think calling it a "crystalline sphere" is intentional phrasing.  Otherwise he would have used "A crystal in a sphere" or just "sphere".

Afaik, there's no gem cutting design that could be called "crystalline".

Navani's notebook discusses how fabrials involve gems with spren trapped inside, which, I think, is the hint Brandon was talking about.  He also says that the answer to what the sphere was is in Book 3, which really implies that it was Yelig-nar.

Yeah, that's the impression I got as well, that it was special because it was all crystal, no glass.

I'll be incredibly happy if it turns out that Yelig-Nar was in one of the spheres.  I've been pushing unmade-in-a-box since right after WoR came out.

But Brandon's comments about the notebook are super intriguing, because at the moment, I don't see any obvious ties from the black spheres to fabrials, at least that we know of.  Unless he just meant that there was a spren inside of it, but that doesn't quite explain it completely.

However, what if we're misunderstanding exactly what a fabrial is/can be?  I'm referring to the machine portion, not just the gem itself.  Is it possible that the process of swallowing Yelig-Nar's sphere somehow turned Amaram into a fabrial, if that makes sense?

[+Child of Hodor]

15 minutes ago, RShara said:

I disagree.  "Crystalline sphere" I feel means a crystal of some kind in the shape of a sphere, not a regular money-type sphere.  Brandon chooses his words very carefully, and I think calling it a "crystalline sphere" is intentional phrasing.  Otherwise he would have used "A crystal in a sphere" or just "sphere".

Afaik, there's no gem cutting design that could be called "crystalline".

Navani's notebook discusses how fabrials involve gems with spren trapped inside, which, I think, is the hint Brandon was talking about.  He also says that the answer to what the sphere was is in Book 3, which really implies that it was Yelig-nar.

It would be weird for the queen to have it in Kholinar when Szeth took it away from there and the last time we hear about it in from him in WoK he had hidden it in Jah Keved. Unless you mean the one Gavilar gives Eshonai. 

Perhaps, Odium thinks Gavilar still had the one Szeth took and that's why they are tearing apart the palace in Kholinar. 

 

[Dlyol]

I just discovered this WOB (it's quite long but the relevant bit is at the end) which I'm taking as confirmation that the black sphere is indeed Yelig-Nar 

 

Quote

 

Argent

Awakening and Surgebinding, Stormlight and Breath seem really similar in some aspects--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

--except Breaths seem to stick to things better--

Brandon Sanderson

They do.

Argent

--than Stormlight. So when you are holding the Breath it doesn't expire when you put it in something it doesn't go away. Can you tell me something about why that's happening?

Brandon Sanderson

Part of this is kind of inherent to the Shard and the power it's coming from. I mean the power of Endowment is just going to stick, that's part of the nature of its magic. Does that make sense? But it also kind of has to do with how the ecosystems are working. For instance the Stormlight is essential to the ecosystem of Roshar, it needs to be expended, it needs to get out and-- It's like evaporation, does that make sense?

Argent

Recycling? Not the recycling but the cycle of--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yeah like the cycle of water. And so just part of the way the nature of it works, it has to get out, it has to leak out, it has to run out. I mean it leaks even from spheres, right?

Argent

And when you lash things it's temporary--

Brandon Sanderson

Yep. And even though Szeth says that he thought Voidbringers could hold it they can't. Like it is just not the way that it works.

Argent

Can they just hold it better?

Brandon Sanderson

They can hold it better. It's not permanent. Now there are things that can do it permanently but--

Argent

Like the black sphere for example?

Brandon Sanderson

Well we are not going to... The black sphere is something different. You guys have guessed what the black sphere is, right?

Argent

Well we have some ideas. I support that it holds an Unmade. Am I wrong?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm not going to answer that.

Argent

But you said--

Brandon Sanderson

I'm just curious what the theories are. Book 3 the black sphere is-- Everyone who reads the books will know what the black sphere is by the end of Book 3.

 

3

 

 

 

[Stark he/him]

12 hours ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Brandon implied that Szeth's sphere's contents could be deduced by looking at Navani's journal translations, here. 

I think the deduction we are supposed to glean from this implication is that the sphere houses a spren.  The question becomes: Which Unmade?

Chances are that the one Szeth hid contains the top Unmade, Ba-Ado-Mishram.  The one given to Eshonai is interesting - not likely any of the ones we have seen on screen, because it left with her to the shattered plains, so it would not be any of the free ones we have seen.  Things went weird in Kholinar before the Everstorm returned, so it likely is not Asherterman, Sja-Anat or Yelig-Nar.  Nergoul and Moelach are also out as they were still loose.  Re-Shepir was in Urithiru, so also out.

 

So I think Gavilar found the spheres trapping Ba-Ado-Mishram and either Chemoarish or Dai-Gonatharis, the only three who have not yet had screen time.  And I don't think that either of those prisons have been opened.  Szeth's is in Jah Keved somewhere (Taravangian territory, sadly) and Eshonai's is likely somewhere in the shattered plains, either lost again, or with the listeners that escaped from Narak when Eshonai turned Stormform (most likely).

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Dlyol said:

I just discovered this WOB (it's quite long but the relevant bit is at the end) which I'm taking as confirmation that the black sphere is indeed Yelig-Nar 

 

Brandon Sanderson

They can hold it better. It's not permanent. Now there are things that can do it permanently but--

Argent

Like the black sphere for example?

Brandon Sanderson

Well we are not going to... The black sphere is something different. You guys have guessed what the black sphere is, right?

Argent

Well we have some ideas. I support that it holds an Unmade. Am I wrong?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm not going to answer that.

Argent

But you said--

Brandon Sanderson

I'm just curious what the theories are. Book 3 the black sphere is-- Everyone who reads the books will know what the black sphere is by the end of Book 3.

 

 

I take this as confirmation that the black spheres hold Unmade. At the end of Oathbringer, Navani told Dalinar that the gem used to trap the Thrill reminds her of a gem Gavilar had. Gavilar stated he had two in the OB prologue. 

One probably contains Ba-Ado-Mishram, the highpriestess of the Voidbringers who can grant forms and acts as a field general, which is the one they haven't found yet and are tearing the palace apart to try find. This is probably the one that Szeth hid. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ba-Ado-Mishram

It would make sense for Yelig-nar to be in the other one that Gavilar gave to Eshonai. It's more of an appetizer compared to B-A-M who was capable of granting all the parsh forms even without Odium present on the planet. Plus, the Parshendi did not want it, assassinated Gavilar because of it and likely left it behind in Kholinar when they fled. It makes sense for this to be the one the queen ended up in possession of. 

I think the black sphere Szeth hid is still hidden in Jah Keved. I don't think Brandon would go through the trouble of having Szeth hide it in another country for it to end up back in Kholinar and unleashed with no explanation of how it was found. I think the Voidbringers believe it is still in Kholinar and that's what they are looking for in the palace. 

 

[Dlyol]

25 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

I take this as confirmation that the black spheres hold Unmade. At the end of Oathbringer, Navani told Dalinar that the gem used to trap the Thrill reminds her of a gem Gavilar had. Gavilar stated he had two in the OB prologue. 

One probably contains Ba-Ado-Mishram, the highpriestess of the Voidbringers who can grant forms and acts as a field general, which is the one they haven't found yet and are tearing the palace apart to try find. This is probably the one that Szeth hid. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ba-Ado-Mishram

It would make sense for Yelig-nar to be in the other one that Gavilar gave to Eshonai. It's more of an appetizer compared to B-A-M who was capable of granting all the parsh forms even without Odium present on the planet. Plus, the Parshendi did not want it, assassinated Gavilar because of it and likely left it behind in Kholinar when they fled. It makes sense for this to be the one the queen ended up in possession of. 

I think the black sphere Szeth hid is still hidden in Jah Keved. I don't think Brandon would go through the trouble of having Szeth hide it in another country for it to end up back in Kholinar and unleashed with no explanation of how it was found. I think the Voidbringers believe it is still in Kholinar and that's what they are looking for in the palace. 

 

Yeah I agree with all this. Perhaps I should have been clearer that I was responding to the OP's suggestion that the 2nd black sphere was Ulim when in my view its likely Yelig-Nar

[JamesMc6]

Whoa, wait. I'm confused. What IS the status of the two Gavilar spheres? Were neither one of them the spheres that Amaram and the Queen ingested? Neither of the two were used by Venli to return Stormform and bring about the Everstorm? One is hidden in Jah Keved and the other, Eshoni's, is whereabouts unknown?

Thanks. I'm new here.

[Wit Beyond Measure she/her]

I think we are all just speculating on the status of both of these spheres, BBE.  The reason I think Ulim might be one is because we last saw Eshonai's sphere when she took it from the table after speaking with Gavilar on the night of the assassination.  If she hid it or lost it or gave it away, Venli might have found it and released Ulim.  That and the fact that Ulim precipitates the return of all of these Unmade is the very best evidence I think we have for one of the spheres being Ulim, most likely the Eshonai sphere.

Many are saying that Szeth's stone was left in Jah Keved, and I seem to remember something about a stone there, but I couldn't later find the reference.  Why are we thinking Jah Keved, other than Szeth's appearance there?  Is the stone mentioned there?

And then BAM being the most powerful Unmade, it would make sense that Gavilar would say that BAM must not be given over to enemy hands.  But I think this is all just speculation. 

I personally don't think that the spheres for Aesudan and Ameram have to come from these two that Gavilar gave away but perhaps the ones that he didn't give away....

Quote

“Oh, Elhokar,” the queen was saying. “You were ever so oblivious. Your father had grand plans, but you … all you ever wanted to do was sit in his shadow. It was for the best that you went off to play war.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 813). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Aesudan seemed to know much more of Gavilar's activities than Elhokar or Dalinar, right?  Perhaps she was one of the Sons of Honor, the other lady besides Ialai Sadeas!  And so I really think Aesudan was given her sphere by Gavilar separately, or she knew where to find it.

BTW, now I am thinking that Braize is the spiritual realm.  Odd, I know, because I've thought of the spiritual realm as heaven before now, but hell is spiritual, too, and Braize = Damnation = Hell, right?  So Heralds die and go immediately to the spiritual realm, which makes sense.  Odium is trapped in the spiritual realm.  That sort of makes some sense.  I don't know.  Just speculating.

[JamesMc6]

7 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

That and the fact that Ulim precipitates the return of all of these Unmade is the very best evidence I think we have for one of the spheres being Ulim, most likely the Eshonai sphere.

That was always my inclination, but then Ulim is not one of the Unmade. So these spheres can trap any voidspren, not just unmade. I guess yes because we haven't been told "only Unmade" have we? So there may be more than just the two "Void Spheres" (do they have a  name?).

[Wit Beyond Measure she/her]

I don't think they even have to be Voidspren, BBE.  Any spren can be trapped, is my impression.  The fabrials use regular spren, and Taravangian implies that his half-shards use spren that are associated with the Knights Radiant.  All trapped in gemstones.  

However, given that these spheres are infused with the dark purple Voidlight rather than Stormlight, I believe we are dealing with either Unmade or Voidspren.

I don't think Ulim is one of the big nine Unmade.  Or ten.  Or however many there really are.  I do think Ulim might have helped the Fuzed to find the gems/spheres for the Unmade.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Wit Beyond Measure

[Dlyol]

24 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

BTW, now I am thinking that Braize is the spiritual realm.  Odd, I know, because I've thought of the spiritual realm as heaven before now, but hell is spiritual, too, and Braize = Damnation = Hell, right?  So Heralds die and go immediately to the spiritual realm, which makes sense.  Odium is trapped in the spiritual realm.  That sort of makes some sense.  I don't know.  Just speculating.

Braize is one of the planets of the Roshar system. As for the Spiritual realm, I suggest you read Secret History although this Coppermind article will do in a pinch https://coppermind.net/wiki/Realmatic_Theory

[Wit Beyond Measure she/her]

Thanks, Dlyol!  Is the Secret History in Ars Arcanum?  I have it but confess I've not read it yet!  I am in the middle of Edgedancer at the moment.  There is a "Mistborn: Secret History" under the Scandrian section, and I've read that Mistborn trilogy (though not the other books).  Is that the history you mean?  Thank you, again!

[Dlyol]

@Wit Beyond Measure Yeah it is although do not read Secret History until you've read all the Era 2 Mistborn books because it has massive spoilers for Bands of Mourning

[StormingTexan he/him]

2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I take this as confirmation that the black spheres hold Unmade. At the end of Oathbringer, Navani told Dalinar that the gem used to trap the Thrill reminds her of a gem Gavilar had. Gavilar stated he had two in the OB prologue. 

One probably contains Ba-Ado-Mishram, the highpriestess of the Voidbringers who can grant forms and acts as a field general, which is the one they haven't found yet and are tearing the palace apart to try find. This is probably the one that Szeth hid. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ba-Ado-Mishram

It would make sense for Yelig-nar to be in the other one that Gavilar gave to Eshonai. It's more of an appetizer compared to B-A-M who was capable of granting all the parsh forms even without Odium present on the planet. Plus, the Parshendi did not want it, assassinated Gavilar because of it and likely left it behind in Kholinar when they fled. It makes sense for this to be the one the queen ended up in possession of. 

I think the black sphere Szeth hid is still hidden in Jah Keved. I don't think Brandon would go through the trouble of having Szeth hide it in another country for it to end up back in Kholinar and unleashed with no explanation of how it was found. I think the Voidbringers believe it is still in Kholinar and that's what they are looking for in the palace. 

 

I like all this. Would be cool if Aesudan is the next books Prologue POV and we see her get the sphere Gavilar gave to Eshonai. 

[Wit Beyond Measure she/her]

Thank you, again, @Dylol.  I have a lot of reading to catch up on and look forward to, it seems!