[OB] Szeth's Shardblade

[Drag0nR3born]

So by the end of OB, Szeth had said the Third Ideal of the Skybreakers and bonded a spren.  My question is why would Szeth use Nightblood instead of summoning his shardbalde when fighting in the battle at the end?  Seems like it would have been less of a risk rather than having Nightblood constantly draining stormlight and almost killing him.  I assume it is because Szeth didn't consider summoning his spren because he hasn't summoned living shardblade before but I find it odd.

Also, will Szeth keep Nightblood and have his spren as shardblade?  I know Nightblood is supposed to be more powerful than a shardblade but kinda seems like the risks outweigh the rewards when weilding it.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Drag0nR3born

[Droughtbringer]

I was assuming that Nightblood was his spren, but I've been thinking that since the end of WoR, so I'm biased.

[Factfinder he/him]

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/63776-ob-dalinar-should-wield-nightblood/

So yeah, Szeth should do exactly as you say and use his own spren.  ...And pass Nightblood on to the guy who's spren refuses to act as a shardblade: Dalinar.  Whom Szeth has already sworn to follow anyway.  And who (as the original poster in that thread pointed out) is able to summon functionally infinite stormlight to power Nightblood any time he wants.

[Stark he/him]

There could be two reasons for it. The first, and most likely is that Brandon has said not all orders follow the same progression system. They don't all get Plate at the same Ideal, so by extension, they may not all get blades at the Third.  This seems especially likely as the Highspren only seem to bond at the Third.  By comparison, Syl is present, and seems to be bound by the second Ideal for Windrunners.  So Szeth may not have access to his blade yet.  We have yet to see him even interact with his spren, or learn its name.  So this is distinctly possible.

 

The second option, is that he does get the blade at the Third Ideal, but it is not sworn yet.  Nale indicated to him that the Third Ideal for the Skybreakers involves swearing to uphold a specific code, or person's law.  If swearing to treat a person as Law, I would assume that they would need to be aware of that Oath.  Me swearing to treat Brandon's personal Codes as law is useless if he has never met me, has not communicated his codes to me, or accepted my Oath.  So Szeth has indicated that he would swear to uphold Dalinar's code as law (Stormfather help soldiers out of uniform, or drunk on duty), but if Dalinar has not accepted the charge, how could the spren accept those words?  There was no time in that battle for Szeth to formally swear, right?  Unless I am misremembering.  If this is the case, the oath has form, but is not sworn.  Like when Lift was Listening, but not living it.  Or Shallan's pain of an Ideal sworn, but not overcome.  

 

Likely the truth is somewhere in the middle.  I think Nale's apprentices in Edgedancer were advanced enough to likely have their own blades, even if we never saw them.  But I don't think Szeth's bond was formalized enough for him to wield.  Either its not the right Ideal for blade due to different progression systems, or the Ideal was discussed but not formally sworn in the hearing of the target of the Ideal. 

Or it was, and the spren said "Screw that, I'm not physically manifesting anywhere near That thing," while looking in horror at Nightblood.

 

Take your pick, but I think, personally, if Szeth is swearing to uphold Dalinar, then he needs to swear to Dalinar, where Dalinar can hear him and accept the words before it will work for the spren.

[Drag0nR3born]

37 minutes ago, Stark said:

Or it was, and the spren said "Screw that, I'm not physically manifesting anywhere near That thing," while looking in horror at Nightblood.

I considered this or possibly that maybe Nightblood has an unknown power that inhibits the spren from formally bonding his weilder.  All good possibilities that you pointed out.  I suspect that it may have been as simple as "Hey I got a sword right here, guess I'll use that" not to mention that I am sure Nightblood was screaming "USE ME!!!!! LET'S DESTROY SOME EVIL!!!!!" which may have gave Szeth a one track mind as far as weapons go.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Drag0nR3born

[+Harrycrapper]

Szeth swore to the Third Ideal after the fight, not before. I wondered about that before my second read through, as the first was a bit more of a sprint than a marathon. But yea, if you have a copy handy, go to the back of the book after the fight and find the page where Szeth goes to Nalan, he swears it then. 

Edited December 20, 2017 by Harrycrapper

[Drag0nR3born]

Just now, Harrycrapper said:

Szeth swore to the Third Ideal after the fight, not before. I wondered about that before my second read through, as the first was a bit more of a spring than a marathon. But yea, if you have a copy handy, go to the back of the book after the fight and find the page where Szeth goes to Nalan, he swears it then. 

Hmm.  Yea I didn't notice that the first time through either but I was blazing through lol.  I am almost to that part on my second slower readthrough so I'll be sure to keep a close eye on it.  Nice catch.

[+Harrycrapper]

I wonder, if Nightblood destroys a Fused, does that permanently destroy it as opposed to how they're really just killing the bodies the Fused are inhabiting? If so, Nightblood would be great for removing key Fused from this Desolation and is definitely a reason to use it instead of a normal Shardblade. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Yes, yes it would! Nightblood destroys on all three realms simultaneously. NOW we know why we needed Nightblood on Roshar! 

[Thanatos]

Szeth says the 3rd ideal during the battle and saves lift. 

 

[RShara she/her]

5 hours ago, Thanatos said:

Szeth says the 3rd ideal during the battle and saves lift. 

 

No, he says it to Nale after the battle.

[Batemenace]

I'd  like to point out that it might just be a matter of personal preference.

As shown with Shallan, simply manifesting a shardblade doesn't automatically grant you any special skills in using it effectively. While Szeth does have practice with the Windrunner Honorblade, it was notably smaller than most shardblades and some of the practice he picked up with it might not translate over to a new, most likely larger blade. Nightblood is roughly the same size as the Windrunner Honorblade, and Szeth is already used to dealing with a blade that drains investiture, a skill still rare among other shardbearers. Szeth seems pretty committed to Nightblood, and even if he could manifest a living shardblade, he'd still probably be lugging Nightblood around at the same time. While I don't doubt there are specific circumstances where duel wielding both Nightblood and a more typical shardblade would be ideal, Nightblood is still pretty effective to use even while sheathed and is probably capable of dealing with most situations readily.  

Edited December 30, 2017 by Batemenace

[manukos he/him]

well i can see a writing reason for him to keep NB for an other book or so 

if he talked to his spren more , or if he was able to call a shardblade  then he'd have to give Nightblood away , or just use him less (since there is more risk involved) and Brandon wouldnt do that to us cos he knows that we want to see more NB(esspecialy chull a pair with Szeth) . 
Sure giving it to Dalinar would make a lot of logical sense , but not that much narative . he decided that he doesnt want to be the warlord and that he wants to take more of a leading , strategic role.

furthermore if someone else should take NB , why not Vasher , he has lots of experiance and ....well i just want to see more of him cos i have no idea how he will fit to the whole narative , or why he is in Roshar.

 

[Batemenace]

In regards to Dalinar using Nightblood, I think it's also worth noting that Bondsmiths aren't allowed to bear shards, and Nightblood would definately count as a shard in my opinion. 

[Leyrann]

3 hours ago, Batemenace said:

In regards to Dalinar using Nightblood, I think it's also worth noting that Bondsmiths aren't allowed to bear shards, and Nightblood would definately count as a shard in my opinion. 

It's the other way around. Bondsmiths don't have shards because the godspren don't want to act as shardblades (it does appear like Dalinar forced the Stormfather to do just that when he wanted to return from Azir when his memories returned) and like any Radiant he can't use a dead shardblade because of the screaming. Nightblood doesn't scream, however, so he could use it. Technically, he could also use any living spren as shardblade, like Kaladin uses Pattern in the chasms in WoR, though Kaladin doesn't know at that point that Pattern is not a 'normal' shardblade.

[Batemenace]

5 hours ago, Leyrann said:

It's the other way around. Bondsmiths don't have shards because the godspren don't want to act as shardblades (it does appear like Dalinar forced the Stormfather to do just that when he wanted to return from Azir when his memories returned) and like any Radiant he can't use a dead shardblade because of the screaming. Nightblood doesn't scream, however, so he could use it. Technically, he could also use any living spren as shardblade, like Kaladin uses Pattern in the chasms in WoR, though Kaladin doesn't know at that point that Pattern is not a 'normal' shardblade.

When telling Dalinar about the limitations of becoming a Bondsmith, he specifically used the term "shards", referring to both Blade and Plate, meaning that he won't get his own Radiant Plate, and taking the option of using Dead Shardplate off the table, despite Dead Shardplate not carrying the same taboo as the dead blades and Dalinar having ready access to any if he needed a set. I'm betting that wielding Nightblood would negatively impact Dalinar's bond with the Stormfather, in the same way that Kaladin's bond with Syl got wrecked when he started associating with people who were plotting to assassinate the king and put Dalinar on the throne. Dalinar might be able to use Nightblood for a time, but it would erode his connection to the Stormfather, as the role of Bondsmith seems to be leading the Orders and not actually swinging around weapons like everyone else. If we want to get really technical, I'm sure Dalinar could even use a dead blade if he really wanted to, despite the screaming, seeing as this is exactly what Renarin did for some time, but these aren't long term practices that are sustainable.

That being said, the idea of Nightblood and the Stormfather using Dalinar's mind as a forum to bicker back and forth with each other would be totally amazing to read.

On a slightly different note...

Brandon has stated that Nightblood is essentially a mechanical/artificial/android spren. The difference is that he doesn't need a bond in order to manifest himself in the physical realm. My gut feeling is that Szeth has bonded a spren just like any other Radiant, but is hesitant to show itself too much while Nightblood is around. Of course, Brandon has stated that even lesser spren could theoretically bond with a person, and we've seen that Seons bond to people, much like their spren counterparts. I'm betting it's totally possible for Nightblood to form a similar bond, but I'm not convinced that that's what's going on with Szeth, as he would be manifesting different powers/abilities, and its been too short of a time frame. 

[DalinarsThrill he/him]

I seem to remember a part in OB where Szeth talks about "his mysterious spren that he's only seen appear a few times," maybe this is why he used Nightblood. Like others said he might not be far enough along, if he hasn't even spoken to it yet it would make sense that he can't use it as a blade yet! 

[gbazz4 he/him]

On 12/30/2017 at 0:00 AM, Batemenace said:

I'd  like to point out that it might just be a matter of personal preference.

As shown with Shallan, simply manifesting a shardblade doesn't automatically grant you any special skills in using it effectively. While Szeth does have practice with the Windrunner Honorblade, it was notably smaller than most shardblades and some of the practice he picked up with it might not translate over to a new, most likely larger blade. Nightblood is roughly the same size as the Windrunner Honorblade, and Szeth is already used to dealing with a blade that drains investiture, a skill still rare among other shardbearers. 

 

On 1/4/2018 at 8:53 AM, DalinarsThrill said:

I seem to remember a part in OB where Szeth talks about "his mysterious spren that he's only seen appear a few times," maybe this is why he used Nightblood. Like others said he might not be far enough along, if he hasn't even spoken to it yet it would make sense that he can't use it as a blade yet! 

I would lean more toward @DalinarsThrill  thought here. The size of the blade is not really that big of an issue when with a live blade the spren can change form to whatever size or shape you want. Like when Kaladin shifts between weapons during his fights, or I think i recall him making Syl a small knife to get his bonds when he is traveling with the parshmen in Oathbringer. I don't recall Szeth talking to his spren, just a few times where he sees the spren and gets some impressions from the spren. It seems more likely based on that information that he is just not far enough along in a bonding relationship to have the spren appear as a shardblade. Because of that and having Nightblood at hand then he just pulls Nightblood out to fight.

[RShara she/her]

18 hours ago, gbazz4 said:

 

I would lean more toward @DalinarsThrill  thought here. The size of the blade is not really that big of an issue when with a live blade the spren can change form to whatever size or shape you want. Like when Kaladin shifts between weapons during his fights, or I think i recall him making Syl a small knife to get his bonds when he is traveling with the parshmen in Oathbringer. I don't recall Szeth talking to his spren, just a few times where he sees the spren and gets some impressions from the spren. It seems more likely based on that information that he is just not far enough along in a bonding relationship to have the spren appear as a shardblade. Because of that and having Nightblood at hand then he just pulls Nightblood out to fight.

Right.  Szeth doesn't swear the Third Oath until after the big battle, so that was when he would have been able to summon a Shardblade.

[Drag0nR3born]

43 minutes ago, RShara said:

Right.  Szeth doesn't swear the Third Oath until after the big battle, so that was when he would have been able to summon a Shardblade.

So what was the explosion of light that Lift saw in the sky before Szeth descended and defeated the Thunderclast?  I assumed this was Szeth swearing the Third Ideal because we saw a similar explosion of light when Kaladin said the Third Ideal.  Was this just Szeth taking in a huge amount of stormlight to prepare for the fight?

Edited January 9, 2018 by Drag0nR3born

[RShara she/her]

5 hours ago, Drag0nR3born said:

So what was the explosion of light that Lift saw in the sky before Szeth descended and defeated the Thunderclast?  I assumed this was Szeth swearing the Third Ideal because we saw a similar explosion of light when Kaladin said the Third Ideal.  Was this just Szeth taking in a huge amount of stormlight to prepare for the fight?

Yeah, I think it was just Szeth taking in a huge amount of stormlight.  The explosion of power is something unique to Windrunners (and maybe Bondsmiths), and doesn't happen with the other Orders.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171-oathbringer-release-party/#e8220

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

What's with Kaladin being special with his oaths that he explodes with power every time he says it?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That is a function of Windrunners being very close to Bondsmiths, which has certain effects.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Would other Windrunners also do that, as well?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yep.

He clearly swears the Ideal at the end of the battle:

Quote

“The law is made by men, so it is not perfect either. It is not perfection we seek, for perfection is impossible. It is instead consistency. You have said the Words?”

“Not yet. I swear to follow the will of Dalinar Kholin. This is my oath.” At the Words, snow crystallized around him in the air, then fluttered down. He felt a surge of something. Approval? From the hidden spren who only rarely showed itself to him, even still.

“I believe that your Words have been accepted. Have you chosen your quest for the next Ideal?”

“I will cleanse the Shin of their false leaders, so long as Dalinar Kholin agrees.”

 

[Drag0nR3born]

9 minutes ago, RShara said:

Yeah, I think it was just Szeth taking in a huge amount of stormlight.  The explosion of power is something unique to Windrunners (and maybe Bondsmiths), and doesn't happen with the other Orders.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171-oathbringer-release-party/#e8220

He clearly swears the Ideal at the end of the battle:

 

Excellent.  I have never seen those WoB before.  Thanks for the info.