[OB] The Real Reason the Radiants Left

[Zinnny]

So for those of us that read the book (probably all of us), we felt a little underwhelmed at the revelation that the knights radiants broke their oaths because they found out that they were the real voidbringers (or at least the OGs).  I can assume like me, many of you think there might think there might be more to it.  So here is my theory, and I'm still working on getting evidence to back it up; was hoping you might be able to help me, or at least disprove it.

I think that the knights radiants are the ones fueling odium.  Maybe it has something to do with the first humans showing up on roshar "with" Odium.  So maybe every time a radiant kills or uses their surges (or uses stormlight) it somehow went to Odium.  If this is true, then over all the years of the desolations, the power of honor may have be taken and transferred to Odium, at which point Honor was killed.

When the Radiants discovered this, they all betrayed their oaths in order to prevent Odium from getting any stronger.  They all knew that it would kill their spren, but they had to in order to save the world (maybe even the Cosmere).

[Calyx]

I don't like this explanation, because that means there is literally no way to fight Odium. Options are:

1. Use stormlight, become kick-chull, defeat desolations, Odium wins
2. Do not use stormlight, desolation kills everyone, Odium wins

This doesn't really seem to fit with power usage in the Cosmere. An example from Oathbringer would be Shallan's illusions near the end - the book mentions each illusions death returning the power to Shallan so she could create another. Odium didn't get it.

I have seen many people claiming that the reason the Radiants broke their oaths was because the discovered that humans were not native to Roshar, but that wasn't my reading at all. It seemed clear to me that they broke their oaths because they discovered that maybe they (surgebinders) were responsible for destroying the planet they originally came from. With no more desolations (as far as they knew), I think they decided that surgebinding was the greatest danger to the planet. They broke their oaths to stop surgebinding, not out of some misguided sense of regret for a conquest that happened thousands of years before (which would be stupid - I can't believe that every radiant of almost every order would make that choice).

I think the big mystery is where in the cosmere the humans came from, how it was really destroyed, and why Odium came with them. I think its possible that Humans came from a world that Odium destroyed (maybe Threnody?) and the past is simply misinterpreted. I doubt that the humans worshipped Odium when they came, and I don't see how the gods of the parshendi and humans could have so neatly switched.

[Messremb]

I think you may be on the right track, but I don't think they were providing power to Odium, but rather weakening Honor, and Honors Power. We know that somehow Honor trapped Odium in the System, and I think that between that, and the investiture of the Heralds, and KR, that is why Honor was weak enough for Odium to kill. I think when Honor died, the KR realized that their use of the power lead to his death, and that continued use of the power would weaken whatever keeps Odium trapped. Also, from what we have seen, it seems the KR have issues with their oaths and how too keep them, that's why the spren always point it out. I can totally see the Windrunners realizing that by being KR they were endangering people, and that the only way to protect them is to betray their oaths.

That said, I have to point out that I really strongly doubt that Odium is taking any of Honors power, as the way I understand it, if he did it would alter his intent. similar to what happened with Ruin and Preservation, and if i remember correctly there are WOB that mention that Odium does not want to take on any other shards to change his intent.

[Zinnny]

Calyx and Messremb, you make good points... I think you're correct that it's not as much feeding Odium as it was weakening Honor to the point where Odium could destroy him.  Similar to how Ruin could kill Preservation because creating humans weakened Preservation.

Question: do we have any evidence that this is the first desolation to happen since Honor was killed?

[Mulk]

4 minutes ago, Zinnny said:

Calyx and Messremb, you make good points... I think you're correct that it's not as much feeding Odium as it was weakening Honor to the point where Odium could destroy him.  Similar to how Ruin could kill Preservation because creating humans weakened Preservation.

Question: do we have any evidence that this is the first desolation to happen since Honor was killed?

Honor says that all of the visions he gives Dalinar are things he has seen except the very last, and that includes the Recreance as it was not the last vision given. There have been no Desolations since the Recreance, everyone agrees on that.  So, yes.

[Calyx]

I think when the Stormfather is talking about the Recreance, he said that Honor had changed and agree with the Knights Radiant when they brought destruction of their world up. So Honor was still alive then, but implied to be pretty clearly dying.

[LiquidBlue]

I think that the Radiants broke their oaths because what they had done or were about to do to the Listeners. How can you  uphold the oath "I will protect even those I hate" if you are about to lobotomize an entire sentience species.

There are still a lot of mysteries surrounding the recreance. I don't think that the revelation about the origin of humankind on Roshar is the whole story.

[Heretic]

On 12/6/2017 at 9:41 AM, Calyx said:

I think the big mystery is where in the cosmere the humans came from, how it was really destroyed, and why Odium came with them. I think its possible that Humans came from a world that Odium destroyed (maybe Threnody?) and the past is simply misinterpreted. I doubt that the humans worshipped Odium when they came, and I don't see how the gods of the parshendi and humans could have so neatly switched.

Its been confirmed that humans on Roshar came from Ashyn

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/174-oathbringer-portland-signing/#e8243

I also think some humans may have worshiped Odium. Odium says that he's not hatred but passion in Dalinar's vision. The Fused reference passion a lot and it's really noticeable during the first conversation Leshwi has with Moash. Then there's the Passions in Thaylenah and although it's not mentioned a lot, when it is the language seems pretty similar to how the Fused talk about passion. I'm not sure if it means anything but I think it's interesting.

[aemetha]

Odium, nor indeed any shard does not gain power from the worship of humans. Their power is the power of investiture which was divided entirely between the shards at the time of the shattering. It neither increases nor decreases according to the same principles of conservation as govern the conservation of energy.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8702

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

What about Ruin and Preservation's Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture,the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic.

The interaction of shards with humans is as tools, and the drive of their intent to impose a specific order upon the cosmere, not one necessitated by access to raw power.

[Subvisual Haze]

I think (hope) that the revelation about humans migrating to Roshar was only important in the context of "they came to Roshar because they blew up their previous planet with surges".

Honor was a check on the power of the Radiants, and once he started to circle the drain (probably due to 9/10 of the Heralds giving up) suddenly the unchecked powers of the Knights Radiant became the biggest immediate threat to the safety of the world.  Ishi probably also convinced them that the desolations were over for good due to whatever they did to magically lobotomize the parshmen.  If they believed the Desolations might be truly gone, disarming themselves made sense as an action for the safety of the world.  I think there's a good chance that the bonded Radiant spren willingly went along with this plan, perceiving it as a sacrifice for the greater good.

[leester1478]

I agree wholeheartedly with @Subvisual Haze. I felt that the knowledge that they weren't the original inhabitants of Roshar was a very thin excuse for the Radiants to straight-up murder their spren. If the threat of the Voidbringers had "passed", and then they were doubting their moral imperative for using their powers, and THEN they figured out their powers would eventually cause a cataclysm, it is much more reasonable to assume that the majority of the Radiants would agree to disband. 

[duladen]

Like some have said here, I think the cause of the Recreance is a combination of things. There was some turmoil between the Orders, worsened by the revelation of human origins and what they did to their home planet as well as increasingly strange behavior from Honor. It might have been obvious to the Radiants that he was dying. My theory is that this was punctuated by two events: the severing of the parsh from the Rhythms (creating the modern parshmen) and whatever cataclysmic event created the Shattered Plains. I also think that Honor's checks on Radiant powers were weakening along with him, and these 2 displays of awesome strength (the destruction of a people and the destruction of a nation) felt like moving down the path towards destroying another world. The sum of all this became too much for the Radiants, and they abandoned their oaths.

[Cenanin]

On 12/6/2017 at 6:53 AM, Messremb said:

I think you may be on the right track, but I don't think they were providing power to Odium, but rather weakening Honor, and Honors Power. We know that somehow Honor trapped Odium in the System, and I think that between that, and the investiture of the Heralds, and KR, that is why Honor was weak enough for Odium to kill. I think when Honor died, the KR realized that their use of the power lead to his death, and that continued use of the power would weaken whatever keeps Odium trapped. Also, from what we have seen, it seems the KR have issues with their oaths and how too keep them, that's why the spren always point it out. I can totally see the Windrunners realizing that by being KR they were endangering people, and that the only way to protect them is to betray their oaths.

That said, I have to point out that I really strongly doubt that Odium is taking any of Honors power, as the way I understand it, if he did it would alter his intent. similar to what happened with Ruin and Preservation, and if i remember correctly there are WOB that mention that Odium does not want to take on any other shards to change his intent.

Odium is however still trapped and Honor has been dead for at least 2,000 years. Probably more like 2,400 years. Odium straight up tells Dalinar only a bondsmith can free him.

[Cenanin]

On 12/7/2017 at 8:46 AM, Heretic said:

Its been confirmed that humans on Roshar came from Ashyn

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/174-oathbringer-portland-signing/#e8243

I also think some humans may have worshiped Odium. Odium says that he's not hatred but passion in Dalinar's vision. The Fused reference passion a lot and it's really noticeable during the first conversation Leshwi has with Moash. Then there's the Passions in Thaylenah and although it's not mentioned a lot, when it is the language seems pretty similar to how the Fused talk about passion. I'm not sure if it means anything but I think it's interesting.

Why does it say in Oathbringer that the original voidbringer planet was Braize, but we have a WoB saying it's Ashyn?

[Heretic]

16 minutes ago, Cenanin said:

Why does it say in Oathbringer that the original voidbringer planet was Braize, but we have a WoB saying it's Ashyn?

I believe it says that the souls of the Fused are imprisoned on Braize, not that it’s the original home of the voidbringers

[kaellok]

On 12/6/2017 at 6:41 AM, Calyx said:

It seemed clear to me that they broke their oaths because they discovered that maybe they (surgebinders) were responsible for destroying the planet they originally came from. With no more desolations (as far as they knew), I think they decided that surgebinding was the greatest danger to the planet. They broke their oaths to stop surgebinding, not out of some misguided sense of regret for a conquest that happened thousands of years before (which would be stupid - I can't believe that every radiant of almost every order would make that choice).

 

On 12/7/2017 at 10:16 AM, Subvisual Haze said:

If they believed the Desolations might be truly gone, disarming themselves made sense as an action for the safety of the world.  I think there's a good chance that the bonded Radiant spren willingly went along with this plan, perceiving it as a sacrifice for the greater good.

I find it incredible to believe that at no point between Aharetium and the Recreance that Honor never told the Radiants, "The Heralds lied, and Desolations are not over--they're only paused."  He created the set of incredibly elaborate illusions for a future Bondsmith, but didn't spend even a couple of minutes in a time period to be measured in +/- thousands of years?  Like, Honor took the time to freak out the Radiants that their unchecked use of powers when he was dead would destroy the world--this happened, according to OB.  But that was while he was dying.  Prior to that he just let everyone chill and think things were done and good?  

I don't buy it.

What probably really happened (as I've mentioned in other threads) is that there were a large number of things coming to light at once that hit each of the Orders differently, in a specifically calculated way that would result in them losing faith in themselves.  Windrunners finding out that the Bondsmith was going to lobotomize an entire race of people that were actually the original inhabitants would probably do for them, but I don't see Lightweavers caring all that much about it in comparison (sure, maybe they would think it was a bad idea, but stuff happens).  Dustbringers especially I don't see casting aside their faith and their Oaths because of either of those actions.

We see how the Urithiru coalition was brought low through a perfectly coordinate plan of attack, and Kaladin says that he doesn't think it was any one thing happening which caused the Recreance.  I'm convinced that the Coalition Collapse occurring in the way it does is an attempt to give readers context of how the Recreance happened.  While I think that there was more to the Recreance than what we have seen (because what we saw doesn't make a storming bit of sense), without actually seeing the context of how the revelations played out and what the Radiants were actually like it will always seem like some sort of nonsense.  At least with the Coalition Collapse and Kaladin's Thoughts(tm), we are reminded: the old Knights Radiant were people first and last, and there was a great deal of politics involved as well.  The Recreance needs to be analyzed through that specific lens.

[Heretic]

@kaellok While I agree with you 100%, isn’t it possible that the breaking of the Oathpact somehow affected Honor? Like I said I agree with you but maybe the breaking of the Oathpact had some effect on Honor that either weakened him or caused him to stop communicating with the Radiants directly? Granted, the Radiants fought against 10 Desolations but for a Shard that amount of time could be next to nothing. Either way, there’s definitely more to the story than just what we’ve been told.

[Cenanin]

 

5 minutes ago, Heretic said:

@kaellok While I agree with you 100%, isn’t it possible that the breaking of the Oathpact somehow affected Honor? Like I said I agree with you but maybe the breaking of the Oathpact had some effect on Honor that either weakened him or caused him to stop communicating with the Radiants directly? Granted, the Radiants fought against 10 Desolations but for a Shard that amount of time could be next to nothing. Either way, there’s definitely more to the story than just what we’ve been told.

The KR were not around when the Oathpact was made. The Heralds would come back and teach humans how to survive the Desolations WITHOUT surgebinding. One time the Heralds came back and humans had learned to surgebind. The Spren had imitated what Honor had done in creating the Honorblades for the Heralds. 

The Desolations, Oathpact, and Heralds are not directly related to the KR. Only indirectly.

[Subvisual Haze]

1 hour ago, kaellok said:

 

I find it incredible to believe that at no point between Aharetium and the Recreance that Honor never told the Radiants, "The Heralds lied, and Desolations are not over--they're only paused."  He created the set of incredibly elaborate illusions for a future Bondsmith, but didn't spend even a couple of minutes in a time period to be measured in +/- thousands of years?  Like, Honor took the time to freak out the Radiants that their unchecked use of powers when he was dead would destroy the world--this happened, according to OB.  But that was while he was dying.  Prior to that he just let everyone chill and think things were done and good?  

I don't buy it.

Gods can take a loooong time to die.  But during said time they can act pretty confused and irrational.  See Preservation.  The Heralds were gifted their powers and blades directly from Honor, so they abandoning their blades would have been a huge blow.  Ahrietam may have mortally wounded Honor and left a very mentally diminished version of him to limp along until he passed the torch to Stormfather.

All things told, the Recreance may in fact have been the best option available to the Radiants at that time.  It bought the world thousands of years to catch its breath without the risk of some idiot nuking the planet on accident without Honor around to supervise their godlike powers.

Also, you can't really fault the Radiants for their desolation blocking plan failing.  By blocking the parsh's abilities to bind, they blocked the traditional pathway that Odium invaded via during the desolations.  They can hardly be faulted for failing to predict the Everstorm, it's a completely new thing.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Subvisual Haze

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

8 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

All things told, the Recreance may in fact have been the best option available to the Radiants at that time.  It bought the world thousands of years to catch its breath without the risk of some idiot nuking the planet on accident without Honor around to supervise their godlike powers.

I like this formulation a lot, probably the best formulation of the apparent onsceen sentiment of the Recreance I have read. It seems to fit with Dalinar's vision of Feverstone keep and how the KRs gave up their blades. They weren't inflamed with passion when they abandoned their shards, they seemed mildly disillusioned but not overly distraught. Have an upvote.