[OB] Odium as 'broken' and Shard's intent changing

[kalamitous_emoashions]

Hey all, 

So I have been having a think about what we know about Shards, their intent, and the ability of the host to 'shift' their intent, or identity to some extent - and then it occured to me that this might fit with what we know about Odium being 'broken'. 

So if we take this WoB from London:

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

We know <Ati chose how Ruin was interpreted, in that he was> a card-cackling maniac. Could someone so differently interpret a Shard as to change its name to be something different? Could someone pick up the Shard of Ruin and think I'm the Shard of Change?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. To an extent. The interpretation, what you call a thing... I think it would be arguable either way in-world, regardless of what they call themselves. There are those who would say the core intent is still there and you can't shift it that far, and others would argue you can shift it far enough to change the definition to a synonym. You see evidence of someone claiming this in the books. I'm not gonna confirm or deny for you whether that is actually a thing or not.

We know there are people that 'follow the passions' on Roshar, and we know that Odium speaks a lot about passion - is there the possibility that the name of the Shard has changed from a wider 'Passion' and into 'Odium' and this change could be considered a form of breaking. 

What I really want to know is has anyone ever asked Brandon if Odium was always the name of the Shard? Or if anyone has ever asked if the intent being Odium has ever slightly changed due to an event - essentially - has Odium always been the same power/name that he is currently. 

We know from WoB that something happened to him which changed him - but I am interested if it has to down with his intent/name. 

Thoughts?

 

[RShara]

16 minutes ago, kalamitous_emoashions said:

Hey all, 

So I have been having a think about what we know about Shards, their intent, and the ability of the host to 'shift' their intent, or identity to some extent - and then it occured to me that this might fit with what we know about Odium being 'broken'. 

So if we take this WoB from London:

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

We know <Ati chose how Ruin was interpreted, in that he was> a card-cackling maniac. Could someone so differently interpret a Shard as to change its name to be something different? Could someone pick up the Shard of Ruin and think I'm the Shard of Change?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. To an extent. The interpretation, what you call a thing... I think it would be arguable either way in-world, regardless of what they call themselves. There are those who would say the core intent is still there and you can't shift it that far, and others would argue you can shift it far enough to change the definition to a synonym. You see evidence of someone claiming this in the books. I'm not gonna confirm or deny for you whether that is actually a thing or not.

We know there are people that 'follow the passions' on Roshar, and we know that Odium speaks a lot about passion - is there the possibility that the name of the Shard has changed from a wider 'Passion' and into 'Odium' and this change could be considered a form of breaking. 

What I really want to know is has anyone ever asked Brandon if Odium was always the name of the Shard? Or if anyone has ever asked if the intent being Odium has ever slightly changed due to an event - essentially - has Odium always been the same power/name that he is currently. 

We know from WoB that something happened to him which changed him - but I am interested if it has to down with his intent/name. 

Thoughts?

 

Do you have the WoB in question?  I'd be interested to see it.  The closest I could find was this one, which seems to confirm Odium was always Odium, aka Hatred.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/218-words-of-radiance-chicago-signing/#e6613

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

What spren types are Glys, Ivory, and Wyndle?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

RAFO, because I haven't decided yet. I know generally what they are, but I don't know how I am going to call them in the books. It happens with other things in my writing, Shards for example - Odium was originally Hatred; the idea was the same, but I decided to change the actual word.

 

Ati was actually a kind and nice guy before he took up the shard Ruin, so I would assume it would take someone with a LOT of willpower (or Identity?) to keep their personality intact and change a Shard's Intent.

 

Quote

You see evidence of someone claiming this in the books. I'm not gonna confirm or deny for you whether that is actually a thing or not.

I think both Odium and Ruin claimed this.  I also think they're both lying.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by RShara

[thegatorgirl00]

1 minute ago, RShara said:

Do you have the WoB in question?  I'd be interested to see it.  The closest I could find was this one, which seems to confirm Odium was always Odium, aka Hatred.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/218-words-of-radiance-chicago-signing/#e6613

 

I read that WoB as meaning Brandon always planned Odium as hatred in terms of the name and spot in his plan. I don't read that as in-world the Intent has always been Odium. 

[RShara]

1 minute ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

I read that WoB as meaning Brandon always planned Odium as hatred in terms of the name and spot in his plan. I don't read that as in-world the Intent has always been Odium. 

I guess it could be read either way.  Someone just needs to ask Brandon if Odium is actually Hatred or not lol.

Regardless, he said you could shift it far enough to be a synonym.  As in, a different word that means nearly the same thing.  So the Intent can't be shifted THAT far.

[kalamitous_emoashions]

Okay - maybe my question can be rephrased to: was odium one of the original 16 shards, or did something happen to create 'Odium' post-shattering? 

Have we ever got confirmation if he is an original 16? 

 

[Calderis]

50 minutes ago, RShara said:

Ati was actually a kind and nice guy before he took up the shard Ruin, so I would assume it would take someone with a LOT of willpower (or Identity?) to keep their personality intact and change a Shard's Intent.

I actually believe that the intent is far more flexible than this implies, precisely because of Ati. 

I believe that Ati and Leras took the Shards that the did in a deliberate attempt to contain a Shard they thought of as a monstrous force. In doing so they inadvertently created the very monster they wished to contain. 

Even when he was totally subsumed in the Shard, the power of Ruin was still shaped by the interpretation of the Vessel. Harmony on the other hand, views Ruin as a natural force, if he held only Ruin, I doubt he would ever end up as Ati did. 

[Leuthie]

It's possible that Odium actually believed he was all of the things he said.  But Rayse's belief that he's more than just Hate doesn't mean he actually is.  Hate and corruption go hand in hand. 

It would actually explain the how, which and what of Sja Ajat corrupted spren when you consider how hate twists the very passions that Odium was talking about.

Taking that into this discussion, the concept of Hate isn't broad enough for anyone to be able to "filter" it.  Hate is a base animal feeling that has a lot of different expressions and results, but not much in the way of differentiation among cultures.  Hate is hate.  Honor and Cultivation, as two examples, are a bit more ambiguous as concepts and, as such, would be much more open to interpretation and "filtering".

 

But really, can any of you put a spin on Hate and make it a positive thing outside of very specific contexts?  I can easily make Honor negative (focus on inward honor instead of outward) and even easier with Cultivation (cull the he'll out of everything!)  

[RShara]

1 hour ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

I actually believe that the intent is far more flexible than this implies, precisely because of Ati. 

I believe that Ati and Leras took the Shards that the did in a deliberate attempt to contain a Shard they thought of as a monstrous force. In doing so they inadvertently created the very monster they wished to contain. 

Even when he was totally subsumed in the Shard, the power of Ruin was still shaped by the interpretation of the Vessel. Harmony on the other hand, views Ruin as a natural force, if he held only Ruin, I doubt he would ever end up as Ati did. 

Sorry, I don't really understand what you're getting at here?  I think you're saying that Ati became as nutty as he did because he started out nice?  I'm not seeing any basis for that if that's what you mean?

21 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

It's possible that Odium actually believed he was all of the things he said.  But Rayse's belief that he's more than just Hate doesn't mean he actually is.  Hate and corruption go hand in hand. 

It would actually explain the how, which and what of Sja Ajat corrupted spren when you consider how hate twists the very passions that Odium was talking about.

Taking that into this discussion, the concept of Hate isn't broad enough for anyone to be able to "filter" it.  Hate is a base animal feeling that has a lot of different expressions and results, but not much in the way of differentiation among cultures.  Hate is hate.  Honor and Cultivation, as two examples, are a bit more ambiguous as concepts and, as such, would be much more open to interpretation and "filtering".

 

But really, can any of you put a spin on Hate and make it a positive thing outside of very specific contexts?  I can easily make Honor negative (focus on inward honor instead of outward) and even easier with Cultivation (cull the he'll out of everything!)  

^^I'm with you here.

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, RShara said:

Sorry, I don't really understand what you're getting at here?  I think you're saying that Ati became as nutty as he did because he started out nice?  I'm not seeing any basis for that if that's what you mean?

He viewed the Shard of Ruin as a monster. He took up the Shard to try to contain it, and in so doing his interpretation of the intent was made manifest. It had nothing to do with him being nice, and everything to do with what he believed Ruin to be. 

[RShara]

3 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

He viewed the Shard of Ruin as a monster. He took up the Shard to try to contain it, and in so doing his interpretation of the intent was made manifest. It had nothing to do with him being nice, and everything to do with what he believed Ruin to be. 

Ahhh I see.  Do we have anything that talks about how Ati felt about the Shard?  Because in MB, he sounded like he viewed Ruin as necessary to life, and as change, rather than destruction.

Edited December 5, 2017 by RShara

[Calderis]

15 minutes ago, RShara said:

Ahhh I see.  Do we have anything that talks about how Ati felt about the Shard?  Because in MB, he sounded like he viewed Ruin as necessary to life, and as change, rather than destruction.

I didn't mean to present this as something we know. It's my opinion.

I think that that is a part of the core of the intent. Entropy. The Shard was in control at that time, so it was acting towards its true purpose, just through the lens of perception Ati created.

This is honestly the only way I can see a "kind and gentle" man becoming that. 

[RShara]

1 minute ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

I didn't mean to present this as something we know. It's my opinion.

I think that that is a part of the core of the intent. Entropy. The Shard was in control at that time, so it was acting towards its true purpose, just through the lens of perception Ati created.

This is honestly the only way I can see a "kind and gentle" man becoming that. 

Ah, I see.  It's certainly a possibility.  We don't know enough about their original motivations to guess much, really.

[Wandering Investor]

I interpreted the Shard and Shardholder's influence as a two-way street. The Shard will over time influence the vessel, but the vessel's interpretation of the shard's intent is very important. Thus we have Ati's attitude of a shopowner closing everything up, vs Sazed's view of a natural process, not too much, but not too little. Leras's belief that any act of destruction is just that, vs Vin's belief that an act of destruction can be an act of preservation pending results.

Following that, Rasye could hold the Shard of Passion and simply consider hatred to be the ultimate passion. This would explain his respect for when people show passion of any kind, while also showing why he is so hateful. His intent is to be as passionate as possible, and he thinks hatred to be the most passionate passion.

 

For the record, I think Rayse does hold the shard of Odium, and his passion statement is just his rationalization, similar to Ati's shopowner scenario.

[thegatorgirl00]

1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

Taking that into this discussion, the concept of Hate isn't broad enough for anyone to be able to "filter" it.  Hate is a base animal feeling that has a lot of different expressions and results, but not much in the way of differentiation among cultures.  Hate is hate.  Honor and Cultivation, as two examples, are a bit more ambiguous as concepts and, as such, would be much more open to interpretation and "filtering".

 

But really, can any of you put a spin on Hate and make it a positive thing outside of very specific contexts?  I can easily make Honor negative (focus on inward honor instead of outward) and even easier with Cultivation (cull the he'll out of everything!)  

I think the implication was more that hate was the filtered version of the Intent. When Dalinar looks at the shard, he says it includes all extreme emotions. I personally believe that if someone else had picked up the shard, it could have been interpreted as Passion, but Rayse's influence made it emphasize hate. I don't think it would count as a form of breaking, though, just a shift in perception changing investiture over time. 

[RShara]

I made this argument in the other thread.  Odium doesn't ever create or inspire any form of passion.  He takes what's already there, and twists it to the worst version of it.  And he *never* uses a "positive" emotion, such as love, joy, etc.  Hatred and undiscerning anger seemed to be the ones he was able to use the most, with things like short-sighted greed and the like coming next.

[Calderis]

35 minutes ago, RShara said:

I made this argument in the other thread.  Odium doesn't ever create or inspire any form of passion.  He takes what's already there, and twists it to the worst version of it.  And he *never* uses a "positive" emotion, such as love, joy, etc.  Hatred and undiscerning anger seemed to be the ones he was able to use the most, with things like short-sighted greed and the like coming next.

And as Oversleep (who I can't tag cause Ookla) brought up on discord earlier, the new forms the rhythms take when filtered through voidspren are quite telling. 

Destruction, fury, derision, spite. 

They're all tainted by hate. 

[RShara]

3 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

And as Oversleep (who I can't tag cause Ookla) brought up on discord earlier, the new forms the rhythms take when filtered through voidspren are quite telling. 

Destruction, fury, derision, spite. 

They're all tainted by hate. 

That's a GREAT point.