[OB] The Traitor

[MonsterMetroid]

Hey Sharders,

In the Oathbringer cover synopsis it says:

We may soon hold Surges again, for Radiance has returned to some, and shines toward others. The Captain, broken by loss, seeks reconciliation. The Spy, broken by cruelty, seeks completion. The Stonewalker, broken by oaths, seeks truth. The Traitor, broken by ambition, seeks freedom.

On the Coppermind Wiki it links the traitor to Venli, Do we have a WoB to support this? Just curious because of all the titles this one seems most open to interpretation. For example I feel like Moash could also easily fit the description too broken by ambition he seeks freedom from his guilt, freedom from responsibility from his actions etc.

Thoughts?

Edited December 1, 2017 by Ookla the Metroid
added highlight

[Calderis he/him]

Every one of the characters mentioned on the cover blurb was on a path towards Radiance. 

On tWoK, it was Shallan, Dalinar, Kaladin, and Szeth. 

On WoR, it was Kal, Dalinar, Shallan, Szeth, and Eshonai. 

On this one, it's the same four that were in the previous two, and the same Spren that was bonding to Eshonai having moved to Venli with her death. 

These are written in world by the Sleepless, and it would make sense that with Eshonai's death, they would continue watching the person her spren moved too. And it was Venli's ambition for power that lead her to betray the will of her people and push towards forms of power. 

[MonsterMetroid]

I am not disagreeing that Venli is an excellent candidate for the title traitor, I was just curious if we know it references her. I mean as you pointed out she has tons of ambition but in this book I would argue she hasn't really been seeking freedom, maybe survival, or answers but not freedom.

[The Sovereign]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Metroid said:

I am not disagreeing that Venli is an excellent candidate for the title traitor, I was just curious if we know it references her. I mean as you pointed out she has tons of ambition but in this book I would argue she hasn't really been seeking freedom, maybe survival, or answers but not freedom.

I see your point and I suppose we do not know. I would argue that context is the best clue for the Traitor to be Venli. Nevermind in-story context (which @Leuthie aptly addresses in the post below mine), the dust jacket blurbs themselves give decent context. The form of the Sleepless' writing is very linear and paints a clear path towards each Radiant. I find it unlikely that they have one random misdirection along with several relatively clear descriptions. This seems especially true when you consider that the writing is likely intended to be ready by other Sleepless. I think this is a case where the obvious choice is the correct one.

Also, I disagree with your assessment that Moash is a good candidate. I'd argue that he is not broken by ambition, but by vengeance. We never really see Moash being particularly ambitious. Even his desire for a Shardblade was really just a means to an end for his vengeance rather than a desire to advance. If anything I'd argue that Moash doesn't feel like he deserves to do/be better. Also his actions would eliminate him from potential Radiance as accepting your brokenness is part of it and Moash does the opposite and instead forfeits his pain/guilt/responsibility to Odium.

I think you could make a very good argument for Moash to be Odium's Champion on the other hand... but that is a thought line for another topic.

Edited December 1, 2017 by The Sovereign
Grammar is important.

[Leuthie]

Venli sought power as a means to freedom.  Her people were destroyed because of it (traitor).  By the end of OB she's seeking freedom from the chains that her ambition and Odium tied her to.  Hence her openness to bond with the comet spren.

The line fits Venli perfectly by the end of OB.

[Bacon]

I suspect Taravangian. He's definitely a traitor in more ways than one. He tried to become king of everything, and the path that took him there broke him, also in more ways than one. But now just wants to survive Odium with his home intact

[The Sovereign]

43 minutes ago, Bacon said:

I suspect Taravangian. He's definitely a traitor in more ways than one. He tried to become king of everything, and the path that took him there broke him, also in more ways than one. But now just wants to survive Odium with his home intact

Taravangian doesn't make sense in context. He wasn't motivated by ambition. Taravangian's moments of anguish over what he has done are likely genuine. His motivation is what he says it is, preservation of the humans on Roshar. He is a traitor, but he wouldn't view himself as one. He simply thinks he is doing the only thing that will allow him to reach his goal of saving the people he can. He also isn't seeking freedom. He actively accepted servitude under Odium to save Kharbranth. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by The Sovereign

[The Invested Beard]

We don't know for sure, but the contextual evidence is very strongly in favor of Venli.

[MonsterMetroid]

On 12/1/2017 at 10:47 AM, The Sovereign said:

The form of the Sleepless' writing is very linear and paints a clear path towards each Radiant

Lets look at the blurb on the way of kings.

Quote

 

There are four whom we watch. The first is the surgeon, forced to put aside healing to become a soldier in the most brutal war of our time. The second is the assassin, a murderer who weeps as he kills. The third is the liar, a young woman who wears a scholar’s mantle over the heart of a thief. The last is the highprince, a warlord whose eyes have opened to the past as his thirst for battle wanes.

The world can change. Surgebinding and Shardwielding can return; the magics of ancient days can become ours again. These four people are key.

One of them may redeem us.

And one of them will destroy us

 

Like you said the people we are talking about are pretty straight forward. But by the end of this book how many of these "paints a clear path towards each Radiant". depends what you mean by radiant but Only two have an existing bond by the end of the book. By the end of Oathbringer we know all 4 of these have a bond and would be considered radiant, So we could argue they talk about people that are on the path to radiance, but if Moash doesn't have a bond with something that gives him power before the end of the series I will eat some horns or shells.

As for how clear their writing is if someone can tell me which of the 4 "may redeem us" and which "will destroy us" that would be awesome. 

On 12/1/2017 at 10:47 AM, The Sovereign said:

Also, I disagree with your assessment that Moash is a good candidate. I'd argue that he is not broken by ambition, but by vengeance.

I would ask why can't it be ambitious to achieve vengeance? The oxford dictionary defines ambition as A strong desire to do or achieve something. If trying to kill the King of Alethkar isn't ambitious I don't know what is.

On 12/1/2017 at 11:34 AM, Leuthie said:

Her people were destroyed because of it (traitor).

The legal definition of treason is the following

Quote

The crime of treason requires a traitorous intent. If a person unwittingly or unintentionally gives aid and comfort to an enemy of the United States during wartime, treason has not occurred. ... Each overt act must be witnessed by at least two people, or a conviction for treason will not stand.

Yes Venli might have caused the destruction of her people. But it was not her Intent to do so. She was trying to find a way to preserve her people. When Others of her people got taken over she was truly saddened.

[Leuthie]

She brought back her people's gods, when her people were fighting and dying in a war caused by them killing a foreign king for the crime of...wanting to bring back her people's gods.

While traitor is what the law calls people guilty of treason, there are other definitions of traitor; one of which is to deliver your people into the hands of an enemy.

[BeskarKomrk he/him]

18 minutes ago, Ookla the Metroid said:

Yes Venli might have caused the destruction of her people. But it was not her Intent to do so. She was trying to find a way to preserve her people. When Others of her people got taken over she was truly saddened.

There are several points throughout Oathbringer and Words of Radiance where Venli is explicitly connected to ambition in the text. Furthermore, by the end of the novel she is a traitor to Odium's forces, having bonded a non-voidspren.

Look at the back-cover blurbs from a more meta perspective. Four characters are on all three books: Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, and Szeth. Three of these characters have had viewpoints in normal chapters of all three books; Szeth has chapters in all the Interludes in WoK and one Interlude chapter in WoR. In WoR, Eshonai has chapters in every Interlude and is added to the back-cover blurb. 

It makes sense to me that this pattern continues. Venli is the character who has chapters in every set of Interludes, so she is the one that is added to the blurb.

[MonsterMetroid]

39 minutes ago, BeskarKomrk said:

by the end of the novel she is a traitor to Odium's forces, having bonded a non-voidspren.

Hmmm ok This actually is something that didn't occur to me. People keep saying that she betrayed her people And I dont buy that because it wasnt her intent to harm her people. However she definitely keeps preserving that spren, she meets with Dalinar against her will but doesn't tell Odium about it afterwards, Yeah I can believe that she is a traitor to the forces of Odium I believe that.

[Cenanin]

On 12/1/2017 at 9:10 AM, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

Every one of the characters mentioned on the cover blurb was on a path towards Radiance. 

On tWoK, it was Shallan, Dalinar, Kaladin, and Szeth. 

On WoR, it was Kal, Dalinar, Shallan, Szeth, and Eshonai. 

On this one, it's the same four that were in the previous two, and the same Spren that was bonding to Eshonai having moved to Venli with her death. 

These are written in world by the Sleepless, and it would make sense that with Eshonai's death, they would continue watching the person her spren moved too. And it was Venli's ambition for power that lead her to betray the will of her people and push towards forms of power. 

Venli's spren did not come from Eshonai. It came from Venli's partner or whatever.

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, Cenanin said:

Venli's spren did not come from Eshonai. It came from Venli's partner or whatever.

Timbre is the same spren that was following Eshonai in the WoR interludes. 

In the first Venli interlude it comes out from underneath Eshonai's corpse. 

It did not come from Demid.

[Cenanin]

No. One came from Eshonai's body and disappeared. Venli thought that strange. Then the interlude with Demid and the others he is killed by a boulder and she captures the one that came from under the rock that killed Demid.

The spren she holds IS Demid before it could be corrupted by Odium and sent to the Everstorm. Like the "Ancient ones", "your ancestors are the leaders", etc.

Read the Venli interludes again. 

[Calderis he/him]

41 minutes ago, Cenanin said:

Read the Venli interludes again. 

The Spren is a named Nahel Spren. Timbre, speculated to be the daughter of Ico. 

Timbre is a Willshaper spren. She is most definitely not Demid. 

Read Venli's last on page interaction with Timbre again. The death of Timbre's grandfather to Radiants (presumed to be the dead  father of Ico), removes the possibility that the Spren is Demid completely. It is the same description as the comet spren that followed Eshonai throughout, which means it is the same spren type, and most likely the the same spren.

Demid died when he was possessed by the Fused.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Ookla, the Incalculable

[Cephandrius Everstorm]

On Friday, December 01, 2017 at 1:22 PM, The Sovereign said:

Taravangian doesn't make sense in context. He wasn't motivated by ambition. Taravangian's moments of anguish over what he has done are likely genuine. His motivation is what he says it is, preservation of the humans on Roshar. He is a traitor, but he wouldn't view himself as one. He simply thinks he is doing the only thing that will allow him to reach his goal of saving the people he can. He also isn't seeking freedom. He actively accepted servitude under Odium to save Kharbranth. 

Exactly, I was actually quite disapointed with Taravangian's request from Odium. It is the least ambitious request I coule think of save for the requwst to save his own skin only. At first I thought King T was going to be able to have the capacity to save the world as he asked feom the night watcher, however, it is quite clear that his definition of "the world" has become a lot smaller, and it feels like such a dissapointment to me as I viewed King T as being somewhat in control... however, I just remembered that Odium came to King T during one of his dumber days and that Taravangian himself thinks something along the lines of: of course, Odium wouldn't come on King T's days of brilliance, where King T would have been much less pliable and in a position of power to bargain with Odium, rather than become subservient to him.

Also thanks to the person who started this thread, I was wonderinf myself who the traitor was!

Edited December 3, 2017 by Cephandrius Everstorm

[Cenanin]

55 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

The Spren is a named Nahel Spren. Timbre, speculated to be the daughter of Ico. 

Timbre is a Willshaper spren. She is most definitely not Demid. 

Read Venli's last on page interaction with Timbre again. The death of Timbre's grandfather to Radiants (presumed to be the dead  father of Ico), removes the possibility that the Spren is Demid completely. It is the same description as the comet spren that followed Eshonai throughout, which means it is the same spren type, and most likely the the same spren.

Demid died when he was possessed by the Fused.

No. It's not the same one that was from Eshonai. "Yes...she'd seen one of those near Eshonai. What was it?" - Venli pg. 578

"If the creatures nearby saw this spren, they would destroy it." - Venli pg. 578

The only time we've seen this blue comet like spren is near voidspren bonded parshendi deaths. I assume the soul in their gemheart learns something from the voidspren inhabiting the gemheart, at least enough to become like the voidspren. Just like other spren became like the honorblades. While the voidspren return to the everstorm normally because they are bound to Odium, the soul-spren would not be bound as Odium had not corrupted these parshendi souls. 

Earlier....

"Unlike the witless Voidspren you bonded-which resides in your gemheart-my Soul l cannot share its dwelling." - Hariel's soul inhabiting Demid's gemheart pg. 577

The comet like spren has given zero, absolutely zero information to conclude that it is a Nahel Spren whatsoever. It pulses to the Rhythms. One was hiding under the body of Eshonai. Timbre was Demid's soul or the parshendi killed by a boulder(probably refused entry to the ancient one so was killed). The other one that was by Eshonai was Eshonai's soul. There is zero evidence any blue comet like spren was anywhere near Eshonai at anytime.  

I don't understand how you can come to any other conclusion. Eshonai had bonded a red lightning like spren. Not a blue comet like spren. No spren like that was following Eshonai around in WoR. We know that the "ancient ones" or "fused" are ancient parshendi souls/spirits that were corrupted by Odium. Their souls obviously reside in their gemhearts. This is reinforced by the fact that throughout WoR after Eshonai assumes stormform she can hear "screaming" from deep down. Her soul is in pain because the voidspren is occupying her gemheart with it forcing corrupted rhythms and thoughts on Eshonai. It's even more reinforced by the parshendi thinking they can physically "hear" the rhythms. The rhythms come from their personal soul, even more reinforced by the fact that Timbre communicates in rhythms.

Also on the last on page interaction with Venli and Timbre that you told me to read is "What a strange way to treat a failure, She attuned Appreciation any-way. An old rhythm. She loved being able to hear those again at will-she could attune either old or new, and could make her eyes red, except when she drew in Stormlight. Timbre had granted this by capturing the Void-spren within her." - Venli pg. 1196(Last Venli chapter in the book)

Eshonai's soul must have done the same thing, as she was having second thoughts. Probably Demid too. Or the other dead Parshendi.

I don't understand how anyone could possibly come to any conclusion where Timbre is one of the ten orders of Knight Radiant spren, or the "daughter of Ico." 
I don't even remember reading about any entity named "Ico," in any of the three books. Could you link the page numbers or something so I could read that?

Timbre is either the soul of Demid, or the soul of the other parshendi that was crushed by the rock. The reason Venli can see them is either because she can see into the cognitive realm, or she can hear their rhythms because she was so close to Eshonai AND Demid if Timbre is Demid's soul, if Timbre is the other parshendi soul, then the former would be true. I think the latter is more likely however. Because she has only seen Eshonai and Demids souls. I don't think that the "soul" occupying the gemheart is the same mind/consciousness as the parshendi. But a part of them.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Cenanin

[The Invested Beard]

19 hours ago, Cenanin said:

e rhythms. The rhythms come from their personal soul, even more reinforced by the fact that Timbre communicates in rhythms.

I don't understand how anyone could possibly come to any conclusion where Timbre is one of the ten orders of Knight Radiant spren, or the "daughter of Ico." 
I don't even remember reading about any entity named "Ico," in any of the three books.

 

I think you need to go back and read the book again. Ico is the Lightspren captain of the ship Kaladin and company sail on in Shadesmar. Timbre is implied quite directly and specifically to be the comet spren Eshonai had been seeing. Venli takes Timbre directly from Eshonai's corpse.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Ookla the Beardspren

[Cenanin]

7 minutes ago, Ookla the Beardspren said:

I think you need to go back and read the book again. Ico is the honor spren captain of the ship Kaladin and company sail on in Shadesmar. Timbre is implied quite directly and specifically to be the comet spren Eshonai had been seeing. Venli takes Timbre directly from Eshonai's corpse.

Oh, okay I remember Ico. Let me find the part. Ico is not an honorspren(pg.925). He is the captain of the ship they travel on before reaching Celebrant, which is before Syl reveals herself to the Honorspren ship and they are taken captive. I read nothing in this chapter that would indicate Ico-They call themselves reachers-has anything to do with Timbre. They are golden in color in shadesmar. Ico has a "deadeyes" imprisoned on his ship, that he comments to Adolin when questioned that it is his father and he doesn't want him wandering off the ship and getting lost.

How would the daughter of an honorspren be a comet like blue spren that has knowledge of attuning the rhythms? The actual honorspren captain (Notum) tells Kaladin that the stormfather created only ten honorspren after the recreance. Notums great-grandmother was one of these ten(pg. 1015). Syl was created by Honor. Before honor asked the stormfather to do it. Venli says Timbre is something "new." Thus not a Nahel Spren, and certainly not an honorspren, and probably not a reacher like Ico.

I find it highly likely that Timbre is a new type of sentient spren that has something to do with parshendi gemhearts. All the evidence points to it. IMO. If you can find some quotes that prove otherwise I'm more than willing to be objective.

[FuzzyWordsmith]

@Cenanin So, reachers are explorers. They are also called Lightspren. Timbre is female. She mentions her grandfather being killed, along with a lot of her people, by Knights Radiant. We know that she has chosen to bond a Listener for that reason. Also, I'm pretty sure we don't know enough about Rhythms to make assumptions. I think we have WoB that they're actually Spiritual, not Cognitive. Also, she does grant the Nahel Bond, because Venli is only able to bond her when she spoke the First Ideal, after which she gained the ability to draw stormlight. In addition, Eshonai was characterized as the Explorer in WoR. In addition, we know Willshapers were explorers. The context lend credence to the idea that Timbre is a Willshaper spren, like all reachers.

There's more, but I would like to discuss something more personal. Self-confidence and certainty are all well and good, but without tact, it can seem a touch arrogant. Your posts in this thread have sounded a bit condescending in their delivery. At least the way I'm reading it, the unspoken implications in your posts seem to be that anyone who thinks differently from you is stupid. I apologize if this offends you, I do not mean to do so. But you are stating your opinions almost as fact, and it does come off as a bit rude. Discussion is all well and good, but I feel we should be civil about it.

[Cenanin]

4 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

@Cenanin So, reachers are explorers. They are also called Lightspren. Timbre is female. She mentions her grandfather being killed, along with a lot of her people, by Knights Radiant. We know that she has chosen to bond a Listener for that reason. Also, I'm pretty sure we don't know enough about Rhythms to make assumptions. I think we have WoB that they're actually Spiritual, not Cognitive. Also, she does grant the Nahel Bond, because Venli is only able to bond her when she spoke the First Ideal, after which she gained the ability to draw stormlight. In addition, Eshonai was characterized as the Explorer in WoR. In addition, we know Willshapers were explorers. The context lend credence to the idea that Timbre is a Willshaper spren, like all reachers.

There's more, but I would like to discuss something more personal. Self-confidence and certainty are all well and good, but without tact, it can seem a touch arrogant. Your posts in this thread have sounded a bit condescending in their delivery. At least the way I'm reading it, the unspoken implications in your posts seem to be that anyone who thinks differently from you is stupid. I apologize if this offends you, I do not mean to do so. But you are stating your opinions almost as fact, and it does come off as a bit rude. Discussion is all well and good, but I feel we should be civil about it.

Timbre from what I remember does not speak once during the entire book. "It" only attunes rhythms from what I remember.

As for your second paragraph, what? Don't reflect. I've provided specific quotes, and I haven't gotten a single one from either of you to back up your arguments. I'm condescending because while I'm willing to look up the material, someone responding to me isn't even willing to do the same.That strengthens my argument tremendously, and I even stated I'm more than willing to be objective. Which I am. But since you pointed it out, yes. I am being condescending purposefully, but I've given outs. Not arrogant though.

[Chaos he/him]

1 hour ago, Cenanin said:

As for your second paragraph, what? Don't reflect. I've provided specific quotes, and I haven't gotten a single one from either of you to back up your arguments. I'm condescending because while I'm willing to look up the material, someone responding to me isn't even willing to do the same.That strengthens my argument tremendously, and I even stated I'm more than willing to be objective. Which I am. But since you pointed it out, yes. I am being condescending purposefully, but I've given outs. Not arrogant though.

Hello, I would strongly prefer you to not ever be condescending and say your statements with grace and humility, rather than things like "All evidence points to it" and very declarative statements. Purposeful condescension is still not good for proper discourse and you will not continue that. 

Okay, with my mod hat off, I would like to provide you with a counterargument. 

Venli in chapter 120 attempts to swear the First Ideal of the Knights Radiant (though she is cut off there). This strongly suggests--when a spren tries to get you to say the First Ideal--that you're becoming a Radiant. I think that's a very safe reading. She then finishes the First Ideal, and takes in Stormlight:

Quote

She held up the sphere, and then—heart fluttering—she drank it in. Her skin started glowing with a soft white light.

“Journey before destination.”

Next, in chapter 121, not only she drinks in Stormlight, she says this:

Quote

“This bond was supposed to be impossible,” she whispered to Timbre.

Timbre pulsed to Peace.

“I’m happy too,” Venli whispered. “But why me? Why not one of the humans?”

Timbre pulsed to Irritation, then the Lost.

“That many? I had no idea the human betrayal had cost so many of your people’s lives. And your own grandfather?”

Irritation again.

So she can drink Stormlight (that would be a Nahel bond type thing), refers to her and Timbre having a "bond", and then Timbre refers to the "human betrayal," that screams the Recreance. 

That evidence does not support the idea of Demid, and very strongly indicates a Radiant relationship. 

[MonsterMetroid]

So this is super off topic but the thread kind of has changed topics anyways, but how do you guys quote sections of the book? do you have to type it out or is there a way to do it I dont know about?

[Yata he/him]

Surelly there are not a 100% proof that Timbre is Ico's daugher (also if their family's history and Ico's speak about his daugher following impossibile Dreams are at least likely clues).

But Timbre is for sure a Radiant Spren for multiple reasons:

- She grants Surgebinding

- She required Venli to Spoke the Ideal to gain the magic

- Venli (that can comunicate with her and understand the actual Words rather than the rythms) explicity says that "your People's live" that implies Venli and Timbre's people are not the same.

If we want to push this thing a bit more:

- Reaches (or Lightspren) are known to be' able to comunicate with each other thanks to vibrazione/pulses. It fits well with Timbre's comunication. Much more remember the Spren doesn't actual know the languages. They are "traslated" to the proper language. It's not hard to think that Venli hears Timbre as Rhytms because as Singer. The Rhytms are the way her people comunicate emotions.

- Lightspren's attitude fits with Eshonai's One and as Timbre is saw with her before die. It's High likely She attracted a Lightspren with her attitude....before the stuffs became Voidish