[OB] Shallan and Shadesmar -- contradiction?

[chx]

In previous books Shallan entered Shadesmar several times and returned without much ado (once Jasnah needed to rescue her because she didn't have enough Stormlight) yet in this book she can't just leave. How odd.

[Aleksiel]

She didn't exactly enter before, just peaked with her mind. That's the difference. You need either Transportation or perpendicularity to physically reenter the PR from Shadesmar.

[splinters]

She was only there with her mind, but that is still enough to be dangerous for her. Only elsecallers can bring their body and mind into Shadesmar. It is a bit confusing in the descriptions. 

Quote

She fell into the sea of spheres. That awful blackness, millions of moving bits, consuming her. She threw herself from Shadesmar. WoR page 144

But I think that is more because Shallan doesn’t understand what is happening than because there is a discontinuity error. 

[Willow]

There is an extra scene set during Words of Radiance that clarifies this a bit: https://www.tor.com/2014/08/06/stormlight-archive-scene-after-words-of-radiance/

While I believe this scene is not-quite-canon, for now it doesn't contradict anything, so we can probably assume that the mechanics are accurate. In this scene we find out that there are different 'phases' of entering Shadesmar. Like Aleksiel said, so far in the story, Jasnah and Shallan have only gone there partially, and because of that there was a junction where they entered, since part of them is still in the Physical Realm. During the Jasnah scene and the Oathgate scene, they both fell into Shadesmar entirely, and the junction disappeared. This is why they have to find a pre-existing junction, like a Perpendicularity, to return to the Physical Realm.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Willow

[Subvisual Haze]

Yeah, it's the difference between Astrally projecting your mind into Shadesmar (with you body still behind in the Physical Realm) versus bringing your body over too.  Shifting your physical body back and forth is the especially stormlight intensive process.

[Calderis he/him]

While soulcasting, Elsecallers and Lightweavers send their minds into Shadesmar to interact, but they are has been said multiple times here, just "peeking" with a portion of themselves. Their bodies still remain in the physical realm. 

You can see evidence of this with the Boulder that Jasnah soulcasts for Taravangian, and the alley scene specifically though there are probably other instances, where directly after soulcasting Jasnah has a kind of vacant look in her eyes. She is mentally in Shadesmar. 

Physically entering Shadesmar takes the body as well, and at that point you need either a perpendicularity, or access to a power that can transfer between the Realms and the fuel to power it. For Radiants, this means being either an Elsecaller or Willshaper, and having Stormlight. 

[Willow]

21 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Physically entering Shadesmar takes the body as well, and at that point you need either a perpendicularity, or access to a power that can transfer between the Realms and the fuel to power it. For Radiants, this means being either an Elsecaller or Willshaper, and having Stormlight.

This makes me wonder if we're going to see Transportation fabrials in the series, since I believe there's a WoB that says there used to be fabrials that imitated all the different forms of Surgebinding.

[Aleksiel]

4 minutes ago, Willow said:

This makes me wonder if we're going to see Transportation fabrials in the series, since I believe there's a WoB that says there used to be fabrials that imitated all the different forms of Surgebinding.

Like the Oathgates? 

[Fulminato he/him]

4 minutes ago, Willow said:

This makes me wonder if we're going to see Transportation fabrials in the series, since I believe there's a WoB that says there used to be fabrials that imitated all the different forms of Surgebinding.

i suppose the oathgate works in that fashion

[Willow]

3 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Like the Oathgates? 

I was thinking something a bit more portable.  Oathgates are useful, but they're limited in function, like the simpler versions of Soulcasters who can only transform into one material (but yes, I also totally forgot Oathgates were a thing when I posted that, oops.)

Edited November 24, 2017 by Willow

[Aleksiel]

8 minutes ago, Willow said:

I was thinking something a bit more portable.  Oathgates are useful, but they're limited in function, like the simpler versions of Soulcasters who can only transform into one material (but yes, I also totally forgot Oathgates were a thing when I posted that, oops.)

Elsecalling is said to be imprecise, so may be portable transportation fabrials aren't feasible and only fixed ones like the oathgates work. Otherwise we should have seen Radiants arriving with those instead of flying in the visions. But it will be nice if there is something else, too.

[Starla]

This topic reminds me of a question I have about the nahel bond spren.  I’m confused about the status of the sprens' shadesmar body when they're bonded to someone in the physical realm. I was under the impression that they come fully into the physical realm when they make the leap to find a candidate to bond. This means that their "big body" is no longer in Shadesmar, causing them to forget a lot about their former life in the cognitive realm.

However, in the stick scene in WOR, when Shallan peeks into Shadesmar while trying to transform the stick to fire, she sees big Pattern there, with his head of twisting lines. He coaches her on how to transform the stick. Does he transition from the PR to the CR when she soulcasts, or is she mentally projecting Pattern in addition to herself? Or is he always there in Shadesmar following her around, sort of like the deadeye spren following their shardholders around?

[DiamondMind he/him]

32 minutes ago, Starla said:

This topic reminds me of a question I have about the nahel bond spren.  I’m confused about the status of the sprens' shadesmar body when they're bonded to someone in the physical realm. I was under the impression that they come fully into the physical realm when they make the leap to find a candidate to bond. This means that their "big body" is no longer in Shadesmar, causing them to forget a lot about their former life in the cognitive realm.

However, in the stick scene in WOR, when Shallan peeks into Shadesmar while trying to transform the stick to fire, she sees big Pattern there, with his head of twisting lines. He coaches her on how to transform the stick. Does he transition from the PR to the CR when she soulcasts, or is she mentally projecting Pattern in addition to herself? Or is he always there in Shadesmar following her around, sort of like the deadeye spren following their shardholders around?

He might be able to peek in with her through the bond. 

[chx]

Hrm, I don't have WoR at  hand, when she first cast that goblet.. she was only partially in Shadesmar? Then I remember wrong.

[Willow]

10 minutes ago, DiamondMind said:

He might be able to peek in with her through the bond.

I think Syl said something like this when they were in Shadesmar, that bonded spren go where their Radiant goes. Dead shardblades, on the other hand, reside (as it turns out) in the Cognitive Realm when they're not summoned. Now I'm curious about those, do they disappear from Shadesmar when summoned, and when dismissed, do they reappear in the same place (even though both the place (e.g. a ship's cabin) and/or the shardblade itself might have moved)? Or does captain Ico have to find his father after every time the shardblade is summoned? That just sounds horrible.