theory [OB] I think, Shallan is being manipulated by Odium/Ashertmarn...

[Guest]

Now this actually started in the KSA discussion thread, but I think, that it should be more public.

---

In the wonderful Chapter 82: The Girl Who Stood Up, Hoid tells Shallan the following.

Quote

“Your other minds take over,” he whispered, “because they look so much more appealing. You’ll never control them until you’re confident in returning to the one who birthed them. Until you accept being you.”

“Then I’ll never control it.” She blinked tears.

“No,” Wit said. He nodded toward the version of her still standing up. “You will, Shallan. If you do not trust yourself, can you trust me? For in you, I see a woman more wonderful than any of the lies. I promise you, that woman is worth protecting. You are worth protecting.”

She nodded toward the illusion of herself still standing. “I can’t be her. She’s just another fabrication.”

Both illusions vanished. “I see only one woman here,” Wit said. “And it’s the one who is standing up. Shallan, that has always been you. You just have to admit it. Allow it.” He whispered to her. “It’s all right to hurt.”

[...]

He smiled. “There are certain things I know, Shallan. This is one of them. You can. Find the balance. Accept the pain, but don’t accept that you deserved it.”

Pattern hummed in appreciation of that.

So Wit is trying to tell her, that Shallan needs to revert the process that she did and love herself again. He sees a woman more wonderful than any of the lies, the woman that she has always been. The woman, that doesn't need Veil and Radiant, but encompasses all of them.

A few chapters later, where she confronts Ashertmarn, she hears the following in Wit's voice...

Quote

Give it all to me, the voices whispered in Shallan’s mind. Give me your passion, your hunger, your longing, your loss. Surrender it. You are what you feel.

[...]

She became a new person with every heartbeat. The voices seemed thrilled by this. They assaulted her, growing to a frenzy. Shallan was a thousand people in a moment. But which one was her?

All of them. A new voice. Wit’s?

"Wit!” she screamed, surrounded by snapping eels in a dark place. “Wit! Please.”

You’re all of them, Shallan. Why must you be only one emotion? One set of sensations? One role? One life?

“They rule me, Wit. Veil and Radiant and all the others. They’re consuming me.”

Then be ruled as a king is ruled by his subjects. Make Shallan so strong, the others must bow.

“I don’t know if I can!”

Now, in the fight with Re-Shephir Shallan mentioned, that when Re-Shephir and she formed a connection and she was 'laid bare'. I think, that that happens whenever she 'merges' with an Unmade. The first voices obviously are from Ashertmarn, the Heart of the Revel, but.. I was thinking, that Shallan was 'laid bare' again and Ashertmarn somehow got a memory from her, that included the scenes in Chapter 82 and the Unmade felt her predicament with fracturing personalities and her trust in Wit... and manipulates her into keeping her personas by pushing them into submission, which is what she thinks she is doing by the end of OB, through using Wit's voice. But Ashertmarn is described as mindless... Just speculating this, but Unmade are Splinters of Odium, right? I think, it was actually Odium, who communicated with her through Ashertmarn? Into keeping her messed up by keeping her fragmented?

Side note, that Pattern always seemed concerned about Shallan's doing with the personas and hummed in appreciation to Wit's original advice. And I have a feeling, that Pattern became more distant through the course of the book. I always remembered him far chattier and interested. Is their bond deteriorating, because Shallan is straying further and further away from her path of attaining self-awareness?

Would also make sense with how he tried to manipulate Dalinar... with the Thrill... Another Unmade, Nergaoul.

It just seems such a contrast from what Wit said... I know Wit is stupidly capable and mysterious, but I can't see how he could have made any connection to Shallan while she was 'inside' Ashertmarn. And of course the constant mention of "emotions" and "sensations", which is basically Odium's theme through the entire book. No, I'm pretty sure, that it was Odium acting through Ashertmarn.

Edited November 27, 2017 by SLNC

[Calderis he/him]

I disagree.

"be ruled by them as a king is ruled by his subjects"

Accept them, understand that they exist, and remain in control yourself. Accept all of those emotions but don't surrender to them. And most of all, as the king with his subjects, be responsible for all of them. 

Odium is all about surrendering the responsibility for your actions and merely accepting what is. A king cannot ignore their subjects.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Calderis

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I disagree.

"be ruled by them as a king is ruled by his subjects"

Accept them, understand that they exist, and remain in control yourself. Accept all of those emotions but don't surrender to them. And most of all, as the king with his subjects, be responsible for all of them. 

Odium is all about surrendering the responsibility for your actions and merely accepting what is. A king cannot ignore their subjects.

I see your point, but I don't think, that this is about Shardic Intent, but strategic warfare.

By keeping Shallan fragmented, she'll have a much harder time to reach new truths about herself, because she doesn't even know, who she really is. The Lightweaver's path is a path of attaining self-awareness.

I meant to highlight the contrast of Wit's talk and the talk of whatever happened during the fight.

Wit tells her to forgive herself and accept herself, even though it will hurt to accept the painful parts of her. He wants her to become just Shallan again.

"Wit" tells her to subdue her personas and implies she should command them... Like a ruler. In short, keep 'em and use 'em.

Edited November 23, 2017 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

But this is fundamentally different advice. In the conversation with Wit, he's telling her that there is just one Shallan, she just needs to accept that she is one (even though that will cause her pain because it will make her acknowledge the painful parts of her self.) The second set of advice from "Wit" is telling her to remain fractured, because why must there be one emotion, one sensation (one passion... give into your passions...) "Wit" is telling her to command and rule her "personalities", and I think implied to use them. Which is the complete opposite of Wit (who we know to be Wit) telling her to accept that she is only one person. 

Edited November 23, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Calderis he/him]

And I just don't see it that way. The "wit" in that scene was not telling her to give in. It wasn't telling her to surrender to the personas. It wasn't telling her that to let them run free. That was the exact problem she was having. 

It told her that, just as earlier wit said there is only one Shallan, that all of those personas are her. The fragmentation splits her so she can only focus on certain things at a time, but that shouldn't be the case. She is not one thing at a time she is all of them. Because there is only one Shallan and all of those emotions are hers. She has to accept that.

That isn't surrendering them, or surrendering to them. That's having to face them all. Having to face the fact that no matter which of the personas thinks or feels or acts a certain way, they are all Shallan's emotions. 

I disagree, because I don't think this is trying to say what you think it is. 

[Dreamstorm]

The nuance isn't about which "Wit" is telling her to run free versus which isn't. Both are telling her how to "manage" her franctured personalities. But they are giving her very different advice about HOW to do this. The first Wit is telling her to deal with the pain that causes her to fracture and thus come to terms with her whole self. The second "Wit" is telling her to accept the fact she is fractured and "rule" her personalities. 

I think we agree that "Wit" in both cases is telling her to manage her personalities. But I don't think you are looking closely enough at how he's telling her to manage them. 

[FuzzyWordsmith]

2 hours ago, Egomere said:

True but I just think that if Odium could 'jump' into Unmade like that to hold converstions with people 'connected' to them why can't he do it with Sja-anat to tell she's lying about what she did with the Oathgate trap and sending them to Shadesmar - as well as how she wants to be free rather than work for him anymore.

I mean that is if we accept what she says on face value and not part of yet another ploy of the void.

edit : Although it could be due to the 'personalities' of each unmade. Like Neragoul and some of the other Unmade seem rather... simple / focussed and Sja-anat might have some more autonomy...

Hmmm will think some more.

I immediately thought about Ruin with this. Ruin has pulled almost the exact same trick, with Vin, the mist spirit and Spook. Among others. The unmade are certainly reminiscent of Hemalurgic constructs. Some spiked people can resist better than others. It might be like that with the Unmade. The mindless ones are open and the sapient ones have some autonomy. In point of fact, Odium's connection to the Unmade should be stronger than Hemalurgy because they are direct splinters of his Shard, whereas Hemalurgy is magic derived from it.

[Farnsworth]

For sure, Shallan has some issues. They probably are not of Odium though.

[Dreamstorm]

15 minutes ago, Farnsworth said:

For sure, Shallan has some issues. They probably are not of Odium though.

Odium is not the root nor the driving force behind Shallan's issues, absolutely. But I am convinced it was not Wit speaking to her (either actually or via a delusion of hers) in the second scene above with the Unmade, and that the speaker was likely Odium (not as sure about the second prong, though, so open to other interpretations of who/what it may be.)

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Maybe. 

 

It will annoy me a little if voices in the head is how he is doing it though. Too Ruin, been there, done that.

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

The nuance isn't about which "Wit" is telling her to run free versus which isn't. Both are telling her how to "manage" her franctured personalities. But they are giving her very different advice about HOW to do this. The first Wit is telling her to deal with the pain that causes her to fracture and thus come to terms with her whole self. The second "Wit" is telling her to accept the fact she is fractured and "rule" her personalities. 

I think we agree that "Wit" in both cases is telling her to manage her personalities. But I don't think you are looking closely enough at how he's telling her to manage them. 

I understand exactly what was said. And as stated, I disagree. 

[Jace21 he/him]

I read it the same way as Calderis. I see what you guys are saying but I don't think the two pieces of advice are contradictory at all. 

Besides if it was Odium and be used Wits voice then it implies he knows where Wit is.

And Wit seems absolutely convinced that if Odium found him he would obliterate him which clearly has not happened.

[Dreamstorm]

8 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

I read it the same way as Calderis. I see what you guys are saying but I don't think the two pieces of advice are contradictory at all. 

Besides if it was Odium and be used Wits voice then it implies he knows where Wit is.

And Wit seems absolutely convinced that if Odium found him he would obliterate him which clearly has not happened.

That is a good point (Odium would know where Wit is if he could read Shallan’s memories), but I don’t necesarily agree there was any reading of Shallan’s past interactions. She’s actually fracturing at that time (“a thousand people in a moment”), so whomever is in her mind (the Unmade immediately prior) could feasibly see that. She asks in her mind “which one is [me]?”. 

Conversely, if this IS the real Wit, what is the explanation that he can speak into Shallan’s mind at this moment? Or otherwise what is the rationalization that Shallan is having this conversation and with whom? For me, I saw the random Wit speaking into Shallan’s mind as a big “we have no in-world explanation” moment, and I like how this theory aligns with how we have seen Odium manipulate our other characters. 

[Nepene he/him]

2 hours ago, IndigoAjah said:

Maybe. 

 

It will annoy me a little if voices in the head is how he is doing it though. Too Ruin, been there, done that.

There are a lot of parallels with Mistborn. Wouldn't surprise me if there were more now.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

It told her that, just as earlier wit said there is only one Shallan, that all of those personas are her. The fragmentation splits her so she can only focus on certain things at a time, but that shouldn't be the case. She is not one thing at a time she is all of them. Because there is only one Shallan and all of those emotions are hers. She has to accept that.

You could interpret it like that, but also as an invitation to fracture yourself further. What bothers me is the One life? aspect, that "Wit" mentions. It is like saying, These are all of you, so live their lives. Which is the main problem with dissociation disorders... You create different lives, that you live. 

Wit wants her to live just one life though. It just comes back down to it. Wit wants Shallan to reintegrate Veil and Radiant into herself. "Wit" wants Shallan to keep them seperate and to be used when needed.

Edited November 24, 2017 by SLNC

[emailanimal he/him]

3 hours ago, Jace21 said:

Besides if it was Odium and be used Wits voice then it implies he knows where Wit is

This, I think, seals it.  Hoid is explicit that Rayse does not know where is he, and more importantly, has no idea Hoid is on Roshar, because if Rayse knew, Hoid would become the #1 Wanted Man.

I think that the "Wit's" voice in the second scene is Shallan's subconscious filtering her interaction with the Unmade.

[Guest]

@emailanimal  & @Jace21

I understand your scepticism, but we know, that Hoid can, in fact, change his appearance and Wit might not look like how Rayse remembers him. I wouldn't put it far, that he actually might also be able to change his voice. Rayse might not have realized, that it was Hoid, but just a man, that Shallan had that conversation with.

Quote

I've come to your land to chase an old acquaintance, but I end up spending most of my time hiding from him instead.

That is what Hoid said to Kaladin in TWoK... Honor is dead, Cultivation is a her, so that basically just leaves Odium. I can't believe, that he would be able to hide so long, if he didn't change his voice, because the voice is one of the most recognizable things about a person.

Edited November 24, 2017 by SLNC

[IndigoAjah he/him]

3 hours ago, Nepene said:

There are a lot of parallels with Mistborn. Wouldn't surprise me if there were more now.

That's not a parallel it's a reused plot though.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

That's not a parallel it's a reused plot though.

A part of reused plot... We don't know where it takes us.

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

I understand your scepticism, but we know, that Hoid can, in fact, change his appearance and Wit might not look like how Rayse remembers him. I wouldn't put it far, that he actually might also be able to change his voice. Rayse might not have realized, that it was Hoid, but just a man, that Shallan had that conversation with.

I don't think that Hoid can disguise himself against a shards perceptions, only hide. 

From the part two epigraphs. 

The first letter. 

Quote

You think yourself so clever, but my eyes are not those of some petty noble, to be clouded by a false nose and some dirt on the cheeks.

And then from Harmony/third letter. 

Quote

How is it you can hide?

If Rayse saw Hoid, he'd know it.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

If Rayse saw Hoid, he'd know it.

If he saw him at all... We don't know what Shallan actually means with being 'laid bare'. Besides, whatever Odium got would have been Shallan's perception of Wit. I think, Odium would probably need to see him directly to see through the disguise.

Edited November 24, 2017 by SLNC

[emailanimal he/him]

12 hours ago, SLNC said:

I understand your scepticism, but we know, that Hoid can, in fact, change his appearance and Wit might not look like how Rayse remembers him. I wouldn't put it far, that he actually might also be able to change his voice. Rayse might not have realized, that it was Hoid, but just a man, that Shallan had that conversation with.

So your idea is that Odium has spied on the conversation Shallan had with Wit, and did not realize who Wit was even though anyone who understands Cosmere can figure it out right away?

I just do not buy it.  Also the "let's use the voice of this random dude who spoke to her a week ago" makes little sense. He could've brought back the voice of her father or her mother or whatever....

Edited November 24, 2017 by emailanimal

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, emailanimal said:

So you idea is that Odium has spied on the conversation Shallan had with Wit, and did not realize who Wit was even though anyone who understands Cosmere can figure it out right away?

I just do not buy it.  Also the "let's use the voice of this random dude who spoke to her a week ago" makes little sense. He could've brought back the voice of her father or her mother or whatever....

My idea is not based on spying, but what happens whenever Shallan 'melds' with an Unmade. During the fight with Re-Shephir, she stated, that they were 'laid bare' to each other and had a real fear, that Re-Shephir might get to know her secrets.

I think that the same happened when Shallan melded with Ashertmarn, who acted as a conduit for Odium, being a Splinter of him (that is the speculative part), and Odium decided to use the information he got about Shallan's conversation with Wit, which actually was just a few hours before btw, and her own fears of being hurt by her past to try to turn it around to cripple his enemy. Shallan being especially vulnerable to it right now.

Edited November 24, 2017 by SLNC

[emailanimal he/him]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

I think that the same happened when Shallan melded with Ashertmarn, who acted as a conduit for Odium, being a Splinter of him (that is the speculative part), and Odium decided to use the information he got about Shallan's conversation with Wit,

If Rayse had access to the content and the context of the conversation Shallan had with Hoid, Rayse would have little doubt about who is talking to Shallan. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

If this was the case, I think we would have seen clearer effects on it in the book. Instead, Shallan slowly got better from that point onwards.