[OB]The reforging of Honor

[aemetha he/him]

I keep seeing this idea pop up. Not without justification obviously, the book did seem to be hinting at that possibility. It's just, the idea frankly makes me throw up in my mouth a little. I think it's a truly horrible idea. Let me explain why.

Reason 1: Honor isn't the good guy in this story.

We think of Honor as the good guy because he opposes Odium who appears to be the bad guy. That isn't the case though, it's bad guy opposing bad guy. One might be worse than the other, but that certainly doesn't make the other good. Lets examine the things Honor has done: Condemned the Heralds to millennia of torture. Cares more about the letter of an oath than the spirit of an oath. Apparently encouraged a war against the people who first followed him - and yes, they do appear to have switched sides, but a good deity doesn't encourage extermination for that, a good deity tries to win them back with compassion and love.

Reason 2: Honor is broken.

He is a shard. They are all broken. None of them is functional in any way shape or form, and all of them have some serious negative impact on the people of their worlds. If someone takes up Honors shard, they will be broken too. And when I say broken, I mean far, far more broken than what is required to gain investiture. I mean the complete subordination of free will to an ideal and the pursuit of that ideal to the point where even the noblest of ideals causes a great deal of harm.

Reason 3: I already read this!

I don't want to spend time reading the ten books of the Stormlight Archive to get the same story as the three books of Mistborn era 1. I don't think Brandon wants me to either. I don't know where he is going with this, but in all the books he's written he has never suffered from a lack of imagination. I would seriously be astonished if the end game of the Stormlight Archive is the same as that of Mistborn.

Anyway, feel free to tell me why I'm wrong now. I will of course ignore that and insist that I am right, because in fact I am the holder of the shard "Correct", and my intent refuses to allow me to acknowledge the possibility of my error .

Edited November 21, 2017 by aemetha

[Blacksmithki]

The corruption of the identity of the holder by the Intent of the shard is not instant, but I agree with point 3.

Comparing Old Honor with old Odium, it is more good/bad though Honor is not a good guy, he CAN be depending on the holder (untill Intent corruption of course)

[dionysus]

Dalinar has elements of 3 investitures in him. Not just Honor. He is probably the greatest acolyte of the Thrill, Cultivation directly put investiture in him because the NIghtwatcher wasn't strong enough, and now he is bonded directly to the largest remnant of Honor. I don't think we are heading down the path of him just being Honor again.

Right now I see him more following the path of Hoid, unifying investiture of many shards such as to remain a complete person without one aspect dominating. As he is not a worldhopper, he will be limited to the three on Roshar.

And I agree we won't see a Mistborn solution because it has been done before. I think all Dalinar will amount to is some type of franken half-shard. As powerful as a sliver, but not on the level of a full shard.

Edit. Changed splinter to sliver.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2017 by dionysus

[aemetha he/him]

Yes, that's what I mean. I should have been clearer, intent isn't instantaneous, it's just that I don't see taking up a shard as a good outcome for a hero of our story. It's, to me, the opposite of a happy ending - knowing they are basically being condemned to slow oblivion. It's analogous to being rewarded for heroism with Alzheimer's.

[Calderis he/him]

Point 1) not the same story. There were no splintered shards in Mistborn. 

Point 2) I strongly doubt it will take the same path. 

Point 3) there are three shards in this story. Things will go differently no matter what. 

I honestly think at this point honor will be reformed, and Cultivation will be driven to pick up Odium after Rayse dies and become a big bad with equal power to Sazed, and far more experience, with a far less limiting intent.

Edit: and on that note, the idea of a Cultivation/Odium combined Shard terrifies me. 

Edited November 21, 2017 by Calderis

[Subvisual Haze]

If Rayse was being truthful and the actual identity of his shard is "Passion", then it may be a very positive thing for the remains of Honor to be combined with broken pieces of Passion.  Passion is hardly an inherently harmful thing, Rayse has just interpreted the intent of his shard in a hateful manner as Odium.

Odium even made the point to Dalinar in his (comically ineffective) "I'm not the bad guy" speech: Honor untempered by emotion is a pretty scary thing.  It's rules for their own sake, letter of the law overruling the intent of the law.  Passion and Honor combined could be a well balanced intent though.  UNITY!

[aemetha he/him]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I honestly think at this point honor will be reformed, and Cultivation will be driven to pick up Odium after Rayse dies and become a big bad with equal power to Sazed, and far more experience, with a far less limiting intent.

Yeah, I guess at this point I don't see the point of that. Sazed basically doesn't have any power. I think of that scenario like this - take two equal volumes of water and put one in a lake and the other in a Tsunami. In both cases it's water, but nobody ever describes a lake as powerful, but a Tsunami it's basically the first adjective that comes to mind. So, yeah, while I agree completely about the far less limiting intent thing, I just don't see the necessity of it. Why does Sazed need to be opposed if he can't actually prevent the big bad from doing anything anyway?

[Calderis he/him]

1 minute ago, aemetha said:

Yeah, I guess at this point I don't see the point of that. Sazed basically doesn't have any power. I think of that scenario like this - take two equal volumes of water and put one in a lake and the other in a Tsunami. In both cases it's water, but nobody ever describes a lake as powerful, but a Tsunami it's basically the first adjective that comes to mind. So, yeah, while I agree completely about the far less limiting intent thing, I just don't see the necessity of it. Why does Sazed need to be opposed if he can't actually prevent the big bad from doing anything anyway?

It's not about Harmony. It's about the creation of an entity with the strength and experience to present a devastating threat to the Cosmere, with an intent that is focused on change and upheaval. Odium and Cultivation combined would be an active threat to literally everything. Harmony has little to do with it. It would be a threat beyond what Ruin was, with a level of power to make any single shard unable to contend. 

It would require a coalition of Shards to oppose. Some of which, as we saw in the letters, are directly opposed to. 

[aemetha he/him]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It would require a coalition of Shards to oppose.

Do you really see it going that way? The cosmere, to me, has always been the story of mortals, in some cases overcoming shards because they have free will that shards do not. I don't know how I'd feel about a story where mortals aren't able to meaningfully affect the outcome.

Can I ask where you see the logical end point of such a scenario? Are shards all shattered? Is Adonalsium reforged? Are the shards all bound by their intent the way harmony is? Do we just not resolve it and accept the cosmere as an ongoing concern indefinitely?

[humanchaos]

If Honor does get reformed, I think it will play out quite differently from mistborn, and would likely be a foreshadowing of the reformation of adonalsium. 

Another alternative to the reformation if adonalsium could be the proper combinations of shards that result in a more neutral version that is less destructive? But I think that would not make for a great story. 

Odiums cry of “ We killed you!” Makes me think that he is either referring to adonalsium, or he had help killing Honor. More likely the former, and his fear here shows that it may actually be possible to reforge the shard. 

Edited November 21, 2017 by humanchaos
Changed recorded, an auto correct error, to reforge

[Mulk he/him]

Just now, Subvisual Haze said:

If Rayse was being truthful and the actual identity of his shard is "Passion", then it may be a very positive thing for the remains of Honor to be combined with broken pieces of Passion.  Passion is hardly an inherently harmful thing, Rayse has just interpreted the intent of his shard in a hateful manner as Odium.

Odium even made the point to Dalinar in his (comically ineffective) "I'm not the bad guy" speech: Honor untempered by emotion is a pretty scary thing.  It's rules for their own sake, letter of the law overruling the intent of the law.  Passion and Honor combined could be a well balanced intent though.  UNITY!

I don't see how you can possibly take Odium's/Rayse's word for it.  Everyone who knows what his Shard is calls him Odium.  in WoR, the second Letter says: He bears the weight of God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.

He is hatred and that which inspires hatred.  Anything else is false advertising on his part to make his desire to hate and destroy easier.  In any case, combining Hatred with Honor would be one of the worst possible combinations.  You'd need Cultivation alongside it to have any hope of preserving a shred of goodness in the resulting Shard.  Dalinar is currently a mixture of all three, though his strongest connection is to Honor.  Without Cultivation, he'd be Odium's champion.  With Cultivation, he became the closest thing currently in an existence to what Honor was, at least in his beginning.

With respect to Calderis' contention, I don't see how Cultivation could possibly want to take up Odium.  I don't see how Cultivation could possibly lend itself to Hatred or vice versa. They aren't antithetical in the same way Ruin and Preservation are, so they don't represent two sides of the same coin.  If  Preservation hadn't come up with a Hail Mary to get someone who wasn't either of them to take up both and end the conflict, it wouldn't have ended that way.  The most likely scenario I see when it comes to Shard combo is Cultivation relinquishing hers to Dalinar once he reaches a satisfactory point, or else Odium finds a way to take her out and Dalinar is at hand to take her Shard up before Odium breaks it.  To be clear, I don't find that likely.  I just find it more likely than an evil supershard with Cultivation's holder controlling.

[Blacksmithki]

While I think that we will see Honor reformed, I find it unlikely that it will be like in Mistborn, used as an emd to the series, and more used as a tool for human/listener to fight Odium.

[aemetha he/him]

1 minute ago, humanchaos said:

or he had help killing Honor

Well, we have a WoB that he has alliances and help killing other Shards. He may have had help again, hence "we".

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/137-general-signed-books-2015/#e2263

Quote

Haradion Drogon

The Letter implies Odium is allied or at least cross purposes with Bavadin. Is Odium actively allied to any *other* cosmere Power(s)?

Brandon Sanderson

YES.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/30-lisbon-signing/#e2614

Quote

Moridin997 (paraphrased)

Did Bavadin in any way help Odium splinter Dominion and Devotion?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Uhh...

Moridin997 (paraphrased)

(sensing an incoming RAFO): In any way...

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Uhh... Yes... Yes, you could say that...

There's also a WoB that Odium and Honor go well together (as opposed to Odium and Cultivation). That suggests to me that if Rayse and Tanavast are out of the equation Brandon does lean toward a pairing of those shards.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4-calamity-seattle-signing/#e5163

Quote

Questioner

What Shard is the opposite of Odium in the sense of the *inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

There are several that could be considered opposites--

Questioner

I mean in the assimilation sense, you’ve said that Odium doesn’t want to absorb any of the other ones but which one would want to?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, which one would want to join with him?

Questioner

Or any of them.

Brandon Sanderson

I think that if personalities had been different, Honor and Odium, there would have been a very natural pairing, not that they’re opposites but they would have attracted. [...]

 

[Bacon]

Kaladin becomes Honor

Moash becomes Odium

They clash and kill each other. Lopen takes up both to become a new shard: Sarcasm

Edited November 21, 2017 by Bacon

[Calderis he/him]

31 minutes ago, aemetha said:

Do you really see it going that way? The cosmere, to me, has always been the story of mortals, in some cases overcoming shards because they have free will that shards do not. I don't know how I'd feel about a story where mortals aren't able to meaningfully affect the outcome.

I still see it staying a story of Mortals. The Shards will always remain as background forces, with people as the focus characters. Even Adonalsium was shattered by mortals. 

32 minutes ago, aemetha said:

Can I ask where you see the logical end point of such a scenario? Are shards all shattered? Is Adonalsium reforged? Are the shards all bound by their intent the way harmony is? Do we just not resolve it and accept the cosmere as an ongoing concern indefinitely?

Whether they're all shattered, or there's a new Adonalsium, or there's just a couple peaceful shards left. Doesn't matter much to me at this point. Getting to a resolution and exploring the implications though...

27 minutes ago, Mulk said:

With respect to Calderis' contention, I don't see how Cultivation could possibly want to take up Odium.  I don't see how Cultivation could possibly lend itself to Hatred or vice versa.

I don't think it's a matter of want. I think it's a matter of compulsion by the intent. 

Cultivation is all about growth and change. If Honor hadn't been splintered, I think she'd already have taken up the power to take down Rayse. 

It a Shard is within reach and whole, I think she'll take it. 

[aemetha he/him]

Just now, Calderis said:

Cultivation is all about growth and change. If Honor hadn't been splintered, I think she'd already have taken up the power to take down Rayse. 

It a Shard is within reach and whole, I think she'll take it. 

That's something I hadn't considered. I find it a very difficult argument to dispute though since it reinforces everything I keep saying about shards - they don't have free will. I agree 400%, she wouldn't have a choice, if the power is there to take she must take it. Have an upvote.

[Brackcha he/him]

23 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I still see it staying a story of Mortals. The Shards will always remain as background forces, with people as the focus characters. Even Adonalsium was shattered by mortals. 

Whether they're all shattered, or there's a new Adonalsium, or there's just a couple peaceful shards left. Doesn't matter much to me at this point. Getting to a resolution and exploring the implications though...

I don't think it's a matter of want. I think it's a matter of compulsion by the intent. 

Cultivation is all about growth and change. If Honor hadn't been splintered, I think she'd already have taken up the power to take down Rayse. 

It a Shard is within reach and whole, I think she'll take it. 

I agree cultivation is about growing I think she would care less about destroying what she is then growth. If you graft a branch onto a tree it doesn't protest because it is like instantaneous growth and odium might change cultivation but it would certainly cause her to grow. Combined they might be something like domination? Maybe invaision?

[aemetha he/him]

1 minute ago, Brackcha said:

Combined they might be something like domination? Maybe invaision?

I would think "Incitement" perhaps.

[Mulk he/him]

36 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I still see it staying a story of Mortals. The Shards will always remain as background forces, with people as the focus characters. Even Adonalsium was shattered by mortals. 

Whether they're all shattered, or there's a new Adonalsium, or there's just a couple peaceful shards left. Doesn't matter much to me at this point. Getting to a resolution and exploring the implications though...

I don't think it's a matter of want. I think it's a matter of compulsion by the intent. 

Cultivation is all about growth and change. If Honor hadn't been splintered, I think she'd already have taken up the power to take down Rayse. 

It a Shard is within reach and whole, I think she'll take it. 

I guess my take on her is different - she also knows how to prune and excise to make things grow better.  I guess I think she'd be more likely to prune or excise Odium from her system for longterm growth.

[jamesgrey]

I don't think "Shards/Holders have no free will" is exactly accurate. Although they are certainly to a great extent (and some more than others) shaped by the original Intent and their interpretation of it, I think we do actually see shades of gray in interpretation. While I agree we won't see a Mistborn scenario on Roshar, because it would feel rehashed and it doesn't feel nearly impactful enough on all the different story threads, the fundamental moment that kickstarted the Cosmere story that Brandon is writing began with the shattering of Adolnasium. That's why it is going to be so damnation long until we get Dragonsteel and anything else pre-shattering. The Cosmere to me is a study in the conflict between impartial divine power (perhaps that could have described Adolnasium with all Intents well balanced), the dangers of the opposite (rash mortals wielding divine power), and the mortals caught in the fray. The Shards did not create (most) of the mortal races that we know of, but they are still invested creatures with presence in all 3 Realms, and the story of pulling things together and splitting them apart is the pivotal axis of the Cosmere.

The re-accumulation of disfuse shardic power from Honor seems like it must be a major factor in the arc of Roshar, both to give us a compelling end to the First 5, but also to set up whatever the prime evil(s) is of the back 5 and the later space-age Cosmere stories. The only things we directly know of so far that can really shape such grand events are Shards, or mortals wielding significant shard-derived power. We do also know that ancient adolnasium has a force serving in opposition to him and we also know that a God Beyond (of some kind) exists--we also don't know if those are the same thing, separate things or just the tip of the iceberg of greater-than-shard entities.

TLDR: I would accept a reconstitution of Honor as an intermediate victory, milestone (honestly, just like it really was in Mistborn), but it won't be the end of the story, or the end of antagonists (again, just like it was in Mistborn). Shards are HUGE deals, but they are not the end game of the Cosmere, imo.

[Calderis he/him]

22 minutes ago, jamesgrey said:

We do also know that ancient adolnasium has a force serving in opposition to him

We don't know that actually, beyond that the group that shattered him could be called a force that opposed him. Brandon has stated that he used that for wiggle room. We do know that the  only powers that we have seen are derived from the Adonalsium or the Shards. 

As to the God Beyond, like the Beyond itself I think this is something that will intentionally never be clarified. The Beyond is open to reader interpretation, whether it is some form of afterlife or oblivion. The God Beyond is an analog of a true God in our world, in that some will believe in it, some won't, and proving either conclusively isn't really possible. 

[aemetha he/him]

20 minutes ago, jamesgrey said:

We do also know that ancient adolnasium has a force serving in opposition to him

Is this the WoB you're getting at here?

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/190-rfantasy-ama-2013/#e4078

Quote

claytonphillips

Before Adonalsium shattered, was it consciously opposed by something, be it people or another cosmic force? Is whatever opposed it still around?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Yes.

If so, he was certainly opposed and the force is still around, because the shardholders shattered him and are still around. He further clarifies.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/90-barnes-noble-b-fest-2016/#e4594

Quote

Questioner

So is there an opposing force to Adonalsium.

Brandon Sanderson

Good question, which has been asked before and i haven't answered it so I'm going to RAFO you as well.

I think that I have occasionally said 'yes' with the caveat that, obviously somebody opposed him because he was Shattered. I haven't confirmed if there is like a 'Devil' or something like that if that's what you're looking for.

Is there something I am unaware of that expands on their being a force of opposition outside of the shards?

[gbazz4 he/him]

So i was actually wondering what was going on when Dalinar said "I am unity!" I was trying to figure out if he was reforging honor (Syl mentions shortly after that it is Honor's Perpendicularity that he essentially created)? If he was sort of creating a new shard (kind of like Harmony since he has been touched by Odium with the Thrill, he was touched by Cultivation, and has been touched by honor living by the codes and bonding the Stormfather)? or if he was actually saying a new bondsmith ideal since a few pages later after he says "I am Unity!" and before Dalinar speaks again the Stormfather says "These words... are accepted." Would love to hear what others concluded about that incident.

I am not opposed to a reforging of honor or maybe forging a new shard like Harmony but with Odium, Cultivation and Honor in some kind of balance. I think those would all be interesting, though i know forging a new shard would be somewhat repetitive but could have new dynamics with 3 shards being involved instead of 2 opposite shards. I have faith that Brandon would make whatever approach interesting as Oathbringer was awesome and everyone had so many theories they were throwing out in the years between books. 

[jamesgrey]

Cald and Aem, you're both right, he definitely leaves it intentionally ambiguous, I know of no quotes beyond what you said. But given "there's always another secret," I expect the grand plan involves more than just Adolnasium as the be-all end-all of realized power. Just my opinion though, no data beyond what you guys have pointed out.

[Salkara]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Even Adonalsium was shattered by mortals.

Mortals and possibly also immortal dargons.