aemetha he/him Posted November 21, 2017 Posted November 21, 2017 1 minute ago, Wreith said: Thus all laws originated/enforced by those who claim authority are only those laws the society as a whole agrees with That isn't as a rule true in most feudal societies. Very few peasant wars resulted in the peasants winning changes to the law. Most ended in massacres and far worse conditions for the survivors. In feudal societies military power trumps social power. 1
Blacksmithki Posted November 21, 2017 Posted November 21, 2017 Just now, Darvys said: Once again, they never swore to uphold any particular set of laws, so yes they would follow the person they swore to. I could have sworn that one of their oaths was to follow the laws of the place they were in... I guess I must have misunderstood them being utterly obsessed with following laws as an oath.
Wreith he/him Posted November 21, 2017 Posted November 21, 2017 Just now, Blacksmithki said: I could have sworn that one of their oaths was to follow the laws of the place they were in... I guess I must have misunderstood them being utterly obsessed with following laws as an oath. The oath was just "to the law". The difficulty is that the law changes depending on where you are. If you swear to a person or to a particular law, then that difficulty goes away
Darvys Posted November 21, 2017 Posted November 21, 2017 Just now, Blacksmithki said: I could have sworn that one of their oaths was to follow the laws of the place they were in... I guess I must have misunderstood them being utterly obsessed with following laws as an oath. That's what some individuals chose to swear to as their 3rd ideal, not all of them, if you swore to follow the law there would be no one to give you a contradictory order.
Xavien Posted November 21, 2017 Posted November 21, 2017 11 minutes ago, Calderis said: As I've said in this thread already, the Skybreakers swear to follow local laws as proscribed through whatever means exist for the nation, and then that oath is superceded by the 3rd. Trying to apply any legal system to their conduct has been proven by this book to be based on a flawed idea. The Skybreakers are not what we thought they were. Are all early oaths superseded by later ones for the different orders? Or is this something exclusive to Skybreakers? If exclusive to Skybreakers it would be funny to me since you often see conflicting laws on the books but the most recent one takes precedent. As for the Skybreakers being not what we thought they were I agree but I wonder if what we are seeing now is what they have always been or if it is a result of the leadership of an insane Nale? I am actually looking forward to the Szeth focused book now because I can't wait to see what Brandon does with this.
bo.montier Posted November 21, 2017 Posted November 21, 2017 Just now, Xavien said: Are all early oaths superseded by later ones for the different orders? Or is this something exclusive to Skybreakers? If exclusive to Skybreakers it would be funny to me since you often see conflicting laws on the books but the most recent one takes precedent. As for the Skybreakers being not what we thought they were I agree but I wonder if what we are seeing now is what they have always been or if it is a result of the leadership of an insane Nale? I am actually looking forward to the Szeth focused book now because I can't wait to see what Brandon does with this. I wouldn't even call it superceding, as much as clarifying. THe second Skybreaker oath has been said as: “I will put the law before all else. ” — The Second Ideal of the Skybreakers “I swear to seek justice, to let it guide me, until I find a more perfect Ideal. ” — The Second Ideal of the Skybreakers (as spoken by Szeth) I imagine that the third clarifies that oath. Since Szeth's oath is so nebulous, I imagine that the other "I will put the law..." is not as binding as we may have interpreted it to be. Law here may very well be a stand-in for justice... Or it could be that one person follows the LAW before all else, where Szeth pays more attention to Justice itself... 1
Blacksmithki Posted November 21, 2017 Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) The way I had interpreted it was that they had sworn to follow the law of wherever they are at any givin point, then 3rd was to follow something or someone. That not the case? I did read oath bringer in ten hours so I probably missed a bit and someone else is reading my copy now... If that is the case, what I meant is say, if Dalinar ordered Szeth to break the law of where he is, so for example, kill someone without justification in pretty much any place. Does then 2 supersede 3? Vice versa? Ignore both? Break oaths? Change person in 3? Edited November 21, 2017 by Blacksmithki
Calderis he/him Posted November 21, 2017 Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Xavien said: Are all early oaths superseded by later ones for the different orders? Or is this something exclusive to Skybreakers? If exclusive to Skybreakers it would be funny to me since you often see conflicting laws on the books but the most recent one takes precedent. Considering the Lightweavers, this is another thing that I think differs order to order. Windrunners are obviously cumulative. Lightweavers... Probably are cumulative, but have no set structure. Skybreakers appear to be sequential, but not additive. Edit: case in point @Blacksmithki, I think Szeth's "until I find a more perfect ideal" means that if Dalinar orders him to break the law, his 3rd oath supercedes his prior oath. Edited November 21, 2017 by Calderis 1
Darvys Posted November 21, 2017 Posted November 21, 2017 5 minutes ago, bo.montier said: I wouldn't even call it superceding, as much as clarifying. THe second Skybreaker oath has been said as: “I will put the law before all else. ” — The Second Ideal of the Skybreakers “I swear to seek justice, to let it guide me, until I find a more perfect Ideal. ” — The Second Ideal of the Skybreakers (as spoken by Szeth) Where does the first version come from ?
Wreith he/him Posted November 21, 2017 Posted November 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, Darvys said: Where does the first version come from ? someone asked Brandon for an oath at a signing Quote MACROS I finally asked if he could write anything in my book that we did not already know about the Skybreakers. I will upload the picture when I get home but it is the second oath of the Skybreakers which says: BRANDON SANDERSON "I will put the law before all else."
Fulminato he/him Posted November 21, 2017 Posted November 21, 2017 16 minutes ago, Calderis said: At this point? No. I'm extremely disappointed in Szeth's arc. He essentially is still bound to his Oathstone, he just got to choose who holds it. My issue is that he still has no responsibility for his own actions. He is bound to follow Dalinar. he was killed, revived (but not perfect), confirmed mad and a herald give him a blade can pierce all the realm. (and destroy the wielder very quick) leave of his own i cannot see a path outside the sucide for szeth.
Darvys Posted November 21, 2017 Posted November 21, 2017 1 minute ago, Wreith said: someone asked Brandon for an oath at a signing Someone needs to ask him again, this wouldn't be consistent with what Szeth's master explained : "The second is the Ideal of Justice, an oath to seek and administer justice". Justice and law aren't always tied, this might be a case in which Brandon changed his mind.
Mierin Posted November 21, 2017 Posted November 21, 2017 I believe the Skybreaker progression is pretty much about each of them figuring out what Justice means to that specific Skybreaker. The second Oath is about simply following the letter of the law because that is the simplest form of "Justice". The third Oath is for them to select someone or something to guide them towards what is right. The fourth is about having a personal quest and figuring out how to deal with the fact that Justice and Law don't always mix. And the fifth Oath is probably realizing that in order for them to do what they think is Just they have to become their own Law. 1
bo.montier Posted November 21, 2017 Posted November 21, 2017 6 minutes ago, Mierin said: I believe the Skybreaker progression is pretty much about each of them figuring out what Justice means to that specific Skybreaker. The second Oath is about simply following the letter of the law because that is the simplest form of "Justice". The third Oath is for them to select someone or something to guide them towards what is right. The fourth is about having a personal quest and figuring out how to deal with the fact that Justice and Law don't always mix. And the fifth Oath is probably realizing that in order for them to do what they think is Just they have to become their own Law. I like this as an explanation of the progression. Good stuff. 1 hour ago, Fulminato said: he was killed, revived (but not perfect), confirmed mad and a herald give him a blade can pierce all the realm. (and destroy the wielder very quick) leave of his own i cannot see a path outside the sucide for szeth. Yeah, I like Szeth's arc. He recognizes that he is unstable and picks something that seems more stable. He picks Dalinar because of how he reacted to world events...Makes sense to me. But I understand @Calderis's critique
aemetha he/him Posted November 21, 2017 Posted November 21, 2017 I think it's interesting that the Skybreaker consecutive progression marries up quite well with the different roles of professions that interact with the law. Oath 2: The police. Follow the letter of the law. Oath 3: A judge. Interpret the letter of the law by examining it in the context of how and why it was written. Oath 4: A politician/ruler. Write the law as a codification of what justice means in that community. Maybe it's consecutive because different levels of skybreaker assume different roles with respect to the law.
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