[OB] Cultivation being deevy(ous) to Dalinar at end of Oathbringer

[Walin he/him]

So near the end of Oathbringer, Dalinar hears Evi’s voice forgiving him. I think it’s reasonable to doubt that Evi could have remained a Cognitive Shadow for more than a few days. She has to be a Cognitive Shadow to communicate with Dalinar because the Beyond (after death and a ‘fading away’ of Cognitive Shadows) is inaccessible to even Shards.

So, a couple of theories:

—The voice was the Nightwatcher being devious and pretending to be Evi because Dalinar needed it to avoid collapse, eventually. Pretty plausible.

—Evi didn’t actually have to be a Cognitive Shadow, because Dalinar’s Unity now and that could maybe unite them for a bit. A little less plausible, but still very acceptable.

—Brandon is going to have to change canon or something because this was just too cool, and its conflict with canon is not (as Ivory would put it). Unplausible, but you never know. Something this awesome is bound to have its imperfections.

 

[QuantumHarmonix he/him]

I think it could also be related to what is wrong with Roshar's afterlife.

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FeatherWriter

Is something wrong with Roshar's afterlife?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, why do you ask?

FeatherWriter

Because of the Tranquiline Halls stuff? Needing to reclaim them?

Brandon Sanderson

Um. So, I'm... not going to answer anything about Roshar's afterlife.

 

[Morsk he/him]

Interesting; we haven't seen anyone on Roshar taken by the Beyond yet, except I think Jezrien -- "It's taking me!" -- but he's too unusual to generalize from. Characters spent a ton of time in Shadesmar around areas people were fighting, but we never saw it once.

Do we have people hearing screams from murder victims on any other cosmere world? That could be our clue that Roshar is different. I figured it was the Spiritual Realm remembering people after they're gone, and them being connected to their murderer. But perhaps it's more.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Morsk

[Fulminato he/him]

in that moment dalinar *was* the honor perpindicularity. he pierce all the realm, not only the cognitive.

"Dalinar thrust his left hand to the side, plunging it between realms, grabbing hold of the very fabric of existence. The world of minds, the realm of thought.
He thrust his right hand to the other side, touching something vast, something that wasn’t a place—it was all places in one. He’d seen this before, in the moment when Odium had let him glimpse the Spiritual Realm."

the voice he hear come from there. can be cultivation, can be evi. but don't come from the cognitive realm.

[Dlyol]

Isn't this a classic example of us assigning magical causes to non-magical events? In novels, characters hear voices of people who aren't physically there at dramatic moments all the time to establish character development. It's possible this has realmatic implications but Occam's razor is just that Dalinar has grown as a person and feels he has earnt Evi's forgiveness so Brandon has him hearing it mentally to indicate that to us.

[emailanimal he/him]

Dalinar has brought together all three Realms. My feeling is that the message came from Spiritual Realm.

[dvoraen]

21 minutes ago, emailanimal said:

Dalinar has brought together all three Realms. My feeling is that the message came from Spiritual Realm.

This is my thought too, that by Connecting to the Spiritual Realm, he caught a glimpse of Evi forgiving him (in the past) for ordering what would be her demise.  Odium made him experience part of her demise, but notably left out the part when she expired.  I forgive you were likely her last words.

 

I don't think Cultivation tampered with Dalinar in that particular moment.  She pretty heavily implied that what she took (and wanted) from Dalinar was something else entirely.

Edited November 18, 2017 by dvoraen

[Homerpat]

I’m not as into all of Brandon’s discussions around cosmere workings, so this is coming from a place of ignorance, but is it possible that Evi is indeed cultivation?

 

this passage in Chapter 111 leads me to believe it’s not out of the realm of possibility. 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Homerpat

[Dryone_2]

Dalinar is not the only one hearing voices of the dead on Roshar. Szeth hears them, too.

[Yata he/him]

Roshar is often described as weird place. Where phenomens Cosmere wide manifest differently there.

It's possible on Roshar you could access a glimpse of the Beyond (but I find it unlikely as Brandon doesn't want to give us an answer) or actually Dalinar heard a glimpse of past or yet A piece of Evi remained in the Spiritual (it's rare but could happen by WoB). If the last is the case, I believe this didn't happen naturally and someone setted this (maybe Cultivation)

[Calderis he/him]

Even if Evi had gone beyond, we know there is a Spiritual "corpse" left behind. Evi could have gone beyond, and there will still be a remnant of her in the Spiritual. 

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Argent

Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that spirit web in the spiritual realm.

Oversleep

Wait wait wait. If there is a "corpse" of Spiritweb (so to speak) and actual, physical corpse is also there... Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy? Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy if you really know what you're doing and have some useful powers (manipulating Connection comes to mind)?

Could you patch the remnants of the Spiritweb and staple it to the body and end up with some zombie-zombie Lifeless? You'd still need to give it a mind but I figure Awakening is just doing that?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

 

[Shuffel]

I think Dalinar heard Cultivations voice. He did ask Cultivation for forgiveness when he saw her.

[teknopathetic he/him]

One thing to remember her is that we didn't see any cognitive shadows in Shadesmaar. When the battle of Kholinar took place, and candles were going out, no one notices any spirits or ghosts mulling about.

This could be because:

1) The heroes were too far away to notice anyone (unlikely).
2) Honour is dead and people are now less connected to the land. 
2) Rosharians aren't directly invested enough to linger in the Cognative realm. 
3) Spirits go somewhere else on or off Roshar, rather than linger about where they died.

 Szeth and Dalinar both here the screams of the people they killed. Is this simply connection to the deaths, or are they being connected to where souls go in Roshar? Could Evi have lingered in that place? We still know so little about the Tranquiline halls/Devoterees, and even though it seems thats a Parshendi afterlife (some of the Fused were carpenters), we don't know if the humans have an equivalent. 

Edited November 26, 2017 by teknopathetic