[OB] Honor's Death

[grinachu]

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“No!” Odium screamed. He stepped forward. “No, we killed you. WE KILLED YOU!”

 

 

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“I do not feel like men. I do not sicken like men. I am. The Stormfather rumbled. I could have been destroyed, though. Splintered into a thousand pieces. I live only because the enemy fears exposing himself to a strike from Cultivation.
“So she lives still, then? The third god?”

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“Well, first I’d see to Cultivation’s death. ”

[...]

“A man cannot serve two gods at once, Dalinar,” Odium said. “And so, I cannot leave her behind. In fact, I cannot leave behind the Splinters of Honor, as I once thought I could. I can already see that going wrong. Once you release me, my transformation of this realm will be substantial.”

[...]

“Honor cared only for bonds. Not the meaning of bonds and oaths, merely that they were kept. Cultivation only wants to see transformation. Growth. It can be good or bad, for all she cares. The pain of men is nothing to her. Only I understand it. Only I care, Dalinar.”

 

So here's what we know about Honor's death.  First, Rayse is considered the most dangerous of the 16, because he has a long tradition of killing other Shards.  Second that he was bound at one point by Honor and Cultivation.  And we also that notwithstanding the fact that he was bound, he somehow managed to kill Honor.  We also know that he remains determined to kill Cultivation and remains afraid of her. All of this begs the question. How did he killed Honor in the first place?

His response to Dalinar's transformation provides a clue. He screams "we killed you.  WE KILLED YOU". But who is the "we" that Odium would accept as having been an equal assassin? The answer is Cultivation. Why would she join Odium in murdering Honor?

Because, as Odium himself says, Cultivation cares "only wants to see transformation. It can be good or bad".  Her Shardic Intent is actually opposed to Honor's desire to keep oaths, bonds and circumstances unchanged.  More importantly, from a self-preservation perspective, Odium knows something she doesn't.  Odium knows how to kill a god. By joining Odium in Honor's murder, (which Odium cannot resist given their past history) she has learnt the secret from him. This makes her very dangerous for him, and the first target he wants to kill. 

[Leyrann]

33 minutes ago, grinachu said:

“I do not feel like men. I do not sicken like men. I am. The Stormfather rumbled. I could have been destroyed, though. Splintered into a thousand pieces. I live only because the enemy fears exposing himself to a strike from Cultivation.

This quote from your own post disproves the theory, though. If Odium was working with Cultivation, he would not fear exposing himself to a strike from Cultivation.

[grinachu]

Just now, Leyrann said:

This quote from your own post disproves the theory, though. If Odium was working with Cultivation, he would not fear exposing himself to a strike from Cultivation.

Fair point. My assumption is they worked together to kill Honor as a one-off step, not that they have an alliance.

There remains the question if you don't accept my theory, of the "we".  Who does it refer to exactly?

[Leyrann]

1 minute ago, grinachu said:

Fair point. My assumption is they worked together to kill Honor as a one-off step, not that they have an alliance.

There remains the question if you don't accept my theory, of the "we".  Who does it refer to exactly?

As I also kind of mentioned here, I wonder wheter Rayse has, since before the Shattering, been working with Adonalsium's enemy. It's not the strongest, I realize, but I think it is an interesting idea, also because we know that "the red is important" (that's a WoB that I'm not gonna bother looking up, sorry I'm lazy) and because it seems unlikely that Trell is Odium, and therefore red from someone else, maybe another Shard allied with Adonalsium's enemy.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

4 minutes ago, grinachu said:

Fair point. My assumption is they worked together to kill Honor as a one-off step, not that they have an alliance.

There remains the question if you don't accept my theory, of the "we".  Who does it refer to exactly?

Royal we, or I and my lackies

 

though Cultivation being involved would be a fun twist.

[Wandering Investor]

Odium and Cultivation could have worked together to kill Honor, and still be opposed to each other later. After learning the killing method, Cultivation could have turned right away. 

That said, I don't think Cultivation would have teamed up against Honor. Possible, but I think otherwise. Two reasons, the first being I think Cultivation and Honor were a love pair (WOB I think, I'd have to find it though). The second is that Cultivations intent aligns with Honor quite nicely where the Radiants are concerned. In order to speak the Words, the radiants have to grow into the right person. As shown by Lopen, saying the words isn't enough, they have to be the right person to uphold the oath. 

[Leyrann]

2 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

the first being I think Cultivation and Honor were a love pair (WOB I think, I'd have to find it though)

Went looking for this, came across this WoB. So yeah, this theory is moot.

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Seonid

If Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved, why did Cultivation not help Honor against Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

She did.

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by Leyrann
some formatting improvements

[Narcoleptic Axolotl he/him]

On 11/16/2017 at 7:12 AM, Leyrann said:

this theory is moot.

Maybe not. It could easily have been a complicated plan to let Cultivation know how to defeat Odium. If there's any truth to this theory, then I'd bet Honor was in on the plan. It certainly does seem an honorable act to sacrifice one's self to bring about the end of a malevolent power. This is very easy to believe, if you were paying attention for the last hour or so of Hero of Ages. Preservation made a complicated plan to defeat or incapacitate Ruin, despite his inability to attack Ruin himself. He just needed someone whose goals hadn't been corrupted by the Intent of the power. Honor and Cultivation just needed to trick Odium into giving up his secret. That said, I know Brandon's pretty clever, but I doubt he'd do this to us.

[Leyrann]

12 minutes ago, Narcoleptic Axolotl said:

Maybe not. It could easily have been a complicated plan to let Cultivation know how to defeat Odium. If there's any truth to this theory, then I'd bet Honor was in on the plan. It certainly does seem an honorable act to sacrifice one's self to bring about the end of a malevolent power. This is very easy to believe, if you were paying attention for the last hour or so of Hero of Ages. Preservation made a complicated plan to defeat or incapacitate Ruin, despite his inability to attack Ruin himself. He just needed someone whose goals hadn't been corrupted by the Intent of the power. Honor and Cultivation just needed to trick Odium into giving up his secret. That said, I know Brandon's pretty clever, but I doubt he'd do this to us.

First of all, I just want to point out you revived a half year old thread.

But this theory is still moot, as even if Cultivation would, in a way, have 'helped' Odium, she'd still be on Honor's side.

[Narcoleptic Axolotl he/him]

Just now, Leyrann said:

she'd still be on Honor's side.

Yes, she'd still be on Honor's side. The theory was saying that, by helping Odium kill Honor, Cultivation learned how to kill Odium. I expanded slightly on this idea, saying that Honor had made this sacrifice willingly, so that Cultivation would be able to beat Odium. Your evidence (which says that Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved) neither proves nor disproves the theory. It is feasible that Cultivation could have let Honor make the sacrifice, despite her feelings. (if that's how shardic love works)

 

I know it's an old thread, but I had something to say. Can anyone blame me? Are we not all nerds to some degree or another?

[Leyrann]

23 minutes ago, Narcoleptic Axolotl said:

The theory was saying that, by helping Odium kill Honor, Cultivation learned how to kill Odium. I expanded slightly on this idea, saying that Honor had made this sacrifice willingly, so that Cultivation would be able to beat Odium. Your evidence (which says that Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved) neither proves nor disproves the theory

Regarding this, we actually know Cultivation has learned from what happened. The WoB I quoted above does say, however, that Cultivation helped Honor against Odium.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36-arcanum-unbounded-chicago-signing/#e1555

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FirstSelector

Was Cultivation close enough to when Odium got  Honor, to know how to fight back?

Brandon Sanderson

Heheheheh. I would say yes.

FirstSelector

And Cultivation, is she--

Brandon Sanderson

She is still there.

FirstSelector

Alive and kicking. Okay, you've said that before--

Brandon Sanderson

She is alive and kicking.

FirstSelector

And she can probably know how to not turn her back to the--

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I mean... She has learned from the experiences of others.

 

[hypatia she/her]

I'm not sure, but for me it is possible that one of the things she had learned from Honor's death was to prepare/teach her own great-spren to act on her own.

There's a WoB from the Jordan Con where Brandon said even if Cultivation is aware of nearly everything what's going on she rarely intervenes with the decisions of Nightwatcher - even if this decisions had a positive effect for Odium's plan.

This doesn't sound good, but on second thought it looks like she is training her spren to become more independent than the Stormfather for the possibility of her own death.

Perhaps this is why Taravangian also said in OB that it looks like she will perhaps die - because at one time in the past she had started to make sure that Nightwatcher wouldn't be in a similiar situation like the Sturmfather - forced to act on his own, but without being prepared to decide on his own.

Over all she - whatever her name - is Cultivation. In a way this should enable her to accept death like Ruin as the natural way, but not to destroy, but to cultivate.

In the last consequence this can mean she plans to cultivate an avatar with her own death - something to save not the vessel, but the intension from being splintered and cultivate her intension to a stronger level.

Edited May 11, 2018 by hypatia

[go_go_gragdet]

On 2017-11-16 at 8:52 AM, grinachu said:

His response to Dalinar's transformation provides a clue. He screams "we killed you.  WE KILLED YOU". But who is the "we" that Odium would accept as having been an equal assassin?

Speaking of "we", are we even sure who "you" is?

[Weltall]

17 minutes ago, go_go_gragdet said:

Speaking of "we", are we even sure who "you" is?

Nope.

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Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

So, there's a whole lot of things that happen in a very short period of time when Dalinar brings the worlds together. "We killed you" from Odium. Who is "we" and who is "you"?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

RAFO.

source

 

[RShara she/her]

This one is very hard to speculat on since we literally don't know what any part of that phrase meant.

Who is We?

Who is You?

How did "We" kill "you"?

Given how death is handled in the cosmere, what does "killed" even mean?

...lol. Three words generating at least four questions.

[Weltall]

@RShara This might be some sort of record. Maybe we could submit it to Guinness.

[Angsos]

Cultivation and Honor may have cooked up the plan to let Odium kill him so that she'd still be around. After all, they probably didn't want to go out like Devotion and Dominion so Honor decided to die for the info. Odium killed one set of lovers to no purpose, I doubt they wanted to go as uselessly.

[Narcoleptic Axolotl he/him]

On 5/11/2018 at 0:00 AM, Leyrann said:

Cultivation helped Honor against Odium.

That's the point. By sacrificing Honor, Cultivation learns how to defeat Odium. That means, Cultivation helps Honor against Odium by being the one to collect and use the information, since Honor wouldn't be around anymore.

On 5/11/2018 at 3:16 PM, Angsos said:

I doubt they wanted to go as uselessly.

Good point.