Jump to content

[OB] Point of Origin


Zalocx

Recommended Posts

So we got confirmation that humans came to Roshar because of a major disaster on their "original" world and that the big secret was that they had destroyed their own planet with surgebinding. This is interesting and has many implications, it will probably take a while to shift through all of them (the book has been out for like 2 days at the time of writing this post haha) but I would like to discuss two theories I had just considering the basics within the context of the Cosmere as we know it.

1. The "Tranquiline Halls" is Ashyn

So with the confirmation in text that humans are not native to Roshar, something that has been more or less confirmed through various WoBs over the years so isn't groundbreaking news, we start to wonder where they came from. We know that they arrived as refugees fleeing the devastation of their original home, so the initial group must have come from the same world. I posit that that world is Ashyn, the planet right next to Roshar that we know is a blasted wasteland save a few pockets where humans survive. And that it got that way because as Khriss mentions in her essay on Greater Roshar in AU: it "suffered a cataclysm long ago".

It makes logistical sense, a massive number of refuges that would be produced by a global disaster would most likely want to settle in the place that was both safe and as close as possible to limit how long they were displaced. Even with the distance warping of the Cognitive why trek halfway across the galaxy with probably nothing but the clothes on your back when you can find shelter the next planet over?

Then there is this Death Rattle from WoK that most people have, again, guessed for years refers in someway to the humans initially displacing the native Parsh:

Quote

“Victory! We stand atop the mount! We scatter them before us! Their homes become our dens, their lands are now our farms! And they shall burn, as we once did, in a place that is hollow and forlorn.”    

 The last sentence is of specific import in this case. The place that is "hollow and forlorn" might refer the Braize, where the cognitive shadows of the genocided Dawnsingers that would later become the Fused were locked up. But the part where the speaker (presumably a human "Voidbringer") claiming that they themselves once burned is probably a reference to the disaster that destroyed their homeworld. And guess what? Back in that essay in Arcanum Unbound Khriss names Ashlyn "the burning planet".

Other possibilities for the identity of the Tranquiline Halls would be either 1) Yolen or 2) a yet unnamed planet. I find Yolen unlikely because the chronology seems to indicate a big time lapse before whatever happened to Yolen (assuming it happened in close proximity to the Shattering and the Birth of the 16) and the human refugees showing up with Odium as their god. For one we know he was off chasing Ambition in the space around Therody, and also took time to go murder the Selish shards. Assuming the conflict between Odium and Honor started soon after his arrival in Roshar and hasn't abated since he would have taken an unbelievably short time to accomplish his prior goals. Not to mention that whatever happened to Yolen had nothing to do with surgebinding, but that is not that big of a deal breaker as I will explain shortly. As for a yet unknown world? Well I can't find evidence for or against something we don't know exists now can I? :unsure: So we should really have someone ask Brandon if the Tranquiline Halls are a world we already know about during the OB tour.

2. The Tranquilline Halls were destroyed, but probably not by surgebinding as we know it

So this being the big secret behind the Recreance confused me. I understand how the characters in universe might come to this conclusion but it makes little sense for the Cosmerically aware. Obviously something big *did* happen to the homeland of the humans to make them refugees and this being the Cosmere that thing most  likely related to usage of Investiture. But we know that, while a magic user can use their magic anywhere given the right resources, initiation into a magic system requires Connection to a certain Shard and/or a certain planet. As surgebinding as we understand it is a system created by bonding a spren of Honor/Cultivation that has learned to mimic the blades Honor forged from his own soul to give the heralds. And he gave those blades to the heralds to enforce the oathpact. So as we know that H+C came to Roshar before Odium and now know that Odium came with the human refugees. It seems incongruous to believe that surgebinders in the mold of the KR existed and destroyed the Tranquiline Halls BEFORE the humans came to Roshar with Odium, who started a fight with Honor, who then forged an Oathpact with 10 humans, which splinters of H+C's power then copied to create surgebinders. Furthermore in WoR Honor in the visions tells Dalinar he "didn't foresee the coming of the Knights" and confirms Syl's comments about the spren mimicking the Honorblades to produce the surges. But if surgebinders already existed and were the reason the Tranquiline Halls were destroyed, why would the coming of surgbinders surprise Honor? But what if surgebinding existed in a different form and Honor was just surprised to see the spren recreate it? Well then I maintain that you can't assume spren-based surgbinding will have the same result (planetary devastation) as whatever was used back home.  Its like Hoid's Lightweaving vrs. Shallan's. Even if the effects are similar or even identical, the mechanics are markedly different. And we haven't considered the Dawnshards which in OB Honor claimed destroyed the Tranquilline Halls as he was in his death throes. 

 

So whatever wrecked the homeland of Roshar's humans was not surgbinding (again at least not as we know it) and so the truth behind the Recrence seems to be a tragic misunderstanding by the people involved possibly conflating two different magic systems from two different planets, probably.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know this for sure, but are there not reasons to assume that the Surges are deeply related to the Cosmere itself? Maybe the Surgebinding that destroyed Ashyn was this "true" Surgebinding, that probably allowed people to access all ten Surges, and then Honor at some point created a "safe" version that only allowed a Surgebinder to use two Surges.

Which means that if someone at some point figures out how to use a Surge without Nahel Bond we're proooobably gonna be in trouble.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Humans being invaders causing the Recreance does make sense if their initiation into the Knights Radiant was based on them thinking of themselves as honourable defenders of their homes, and it turns out that actually those homes were stolen, then you can see how that revelation would lead to them not feeling they could reasonable continue on as keepers of their oaths without reassurance from someone who understands them that this didn't undermine the whole foundation of their being. I thought it was well explained, even if I didn't particularly like it as an explanation myself. (it didn't feel foreshadowed enough to me, it was TOO surprising, and I was reading a bit much into Shallan's issues and hoping for the explanation to be something like the nahel bond potentially driving them even crazier, but I probably would have gotten over that with a tiny bit of foreshadowing being dropped by Azure/Vivenna)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Ari said:

Humans being invaders causing the Recreance does make sense if their initiation into the Knights Radiant was based on them thinking of themselves as honourable defenders of their homes, and it turns out that actually those homes were stolen, then you can see how that revelation would lead to them not feeling they could reasonable continue on as keepers of their oaths without reassurance from someone who understands them that this didn't undermine the whole foundation of their being. I thought it was well explained, even if I didn't particularly like it as an explanation myself. (it didn't feel foreshadowed enough to me, it was TOO surprising, and I was reading a bit much into Shallan's issues and hoping for the explanation to be something like the nahel bond potentially driving them even crazier, but I probably would have gotten over that with a tiny bit of foreshadowing being dropped by Azure/Vivenna)

This is quite similar to what I was expecting from the huge revelation. There was somewhere a line which indicated that radiants might have abandoned their oaths specifically in order to kill their spren - it led to a discussion, that the bond could prove dangerous to humans at some point. Adding to that, by the word of Stormfather, sprens changed after Honor's death, which could be the cause for them starting to dominate humans in some way. One thing that doesn't add up, is that Tanavast included Recreance in the visions, which indicates it happened prior to his death - but then again, it could just be a point in time during the process of splintering?

Anyway, that was what I expected, that keeping the bond would pose a threat of losing sanity/soul ever since Honor was dead. And I think it is still not out of question, considering how we mostly agree here that the given relevation is most interesting, but unsatisfactorily linked to Recreance. 

Edited by Ailvara
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My guess would be that Recreance happened right after the Listener Voidbringers were defeated, and sent into slave form. The KR knew that without a common enemy to unite them their conflicting ideals would lead them to fight each other. Which might be as bad as a new Desolation. They also killed their spren on purpose so that spren would not want to bond with humans. Stopping any new surgebinder from appearing.     

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

I would like to put forth the theory that the humans came from Nalthis.  The only real reasons I have to support this is that A) we know that Nalthis, and Warbreaker, happened long before the events on Roshar.  B ) When Siri was teaching Susebron to read his book, the first thing she pointed out was the word Shash, which appears to mean the same thing to everyone on Nalthis and Roshar.  Brandon has said that the languages on each planet were different and only understood by Worldhoppers by means of Connection.  C)  Everything from Nalthis seems to end up on or near Roshar (Nightblood, Washer, Vivenna, the painting from Lightsong's court).  Also would maybe explain why Austere's monks and the Ardents both shave their heads.

Edited by Dragonangel
added a thought
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It said the humans destroyed their old hom using their magic, potentially through the dawn shards. I have this theory, the unmade were something else at one point. What if the humans remade the nine using the dawn shards for some purpose? For power control, ability. But something went wrong, the nine were made wrong or imperfect, unbalanced. That is why some of them are so mindless. That is part of the reason odium wants to destroy humanity, they warped the piece of him when the nine were altered. A wound he can never heal, but always feel the pain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Dragonangel said:

I would like to put forth the theory that the humans came from Nalthis.  The only real reasons I have to support this is that A) we know that Nalthis, and Warbreaker, happened long before the events on Roshar.

It's hinted that some of the humans came from Nalthis at some point, but probably not the original settlers.

Warbreaker takes place after Mistborn era1 - http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=692#10

So that'd be at most ~300 years before Stormlight

 

Edit: There's this one too that helps with the timeline - https://wob.coppermind.net/events/260-oathbringer-newcastle-signing/#e8747

Edited by Canucck
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Humans came from Ashyn.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/174-oathbringer-portland-signing/#e8243

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

A friend of mine wanted me to ask: Was the cataclysm that <rocked> Ashyn and forced its inhabitants into the flying cities Investiture-based, and if it was was it Shardic in nature?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

The same cataclysm that the-- did you finish [Oathbringer]?

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

The same cataclysm that they were fleeing, that they caused, is the one that forced people into the skies.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

About the factors compounding to the Recreance I can only recommend the recent Shardcast, they cover those very well. About Surgebinding on Ashyn: We have to remember that Ashyn is in the Rosharan system, so a similar magic system as on Roshar is to be expected, especially since the system has existed pre-Shattering. The only localized magic we know is on Sel, this basically coming from the Investiture of D&D being stuffed into the Cognitive Realm instead of the Spiritual Realm. This is not the case in the Rosharan system, so Surgebinding should not be limited to the planet of Roshar. If you also take into account the fact that Rosharan nomenclature is not very differentiating (e.g most birds are called "chicken"), it would be not surprising that any non-fabrial magic in the system is called "Surgebinding", even if it was slightly different. A possibility is that humans accidentally "destroyed" Ashyn with Voidbinding - they were the first Voidbringers, after all. What irks me is that Honor and Cultivation told the Singers to take in the refugees from Ashyn. They probably would not have done that if Odium came immediately with them. There are great uncertainties concerning the first advent of humans on Roshar, since we've got only bits here an there hidden in Death Rattles, The Songs of Listeners and the translation of the Eila Stele.

The fear of destroying the planet with Surgebinding again must have been an issue for the KR before the Recreance, since Honor started raving about it before he died. When Ba-Ado-Mishram was captured and all Singers connected to her lobotomized in the process, the unforeseen consequences must have been a shock for the Knights Radiant and an example of what the surges could do to the planet. Additionally, we still don't know what shattered the Shattered Plains. This could also have been another "accident" with greater effects than intended.

The revelation that humans were not native to Roshar, I also found underwhelming as the Secret that destroyed the KR. Combined with the danger of destroying a planet again with examples of unexpected effects of Surgebinding, the scenario leading to the Recreance is quite convincing for me. The fact that humans on Ashyn might have had a different form of Surgebinding is secondary, because the lobotomizing and the shattering of the Shattered Plains have been done by the Surgebinding the KR on Roshar currently use.

Edited by Pattern
Link to Shardcast inserted
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Chaos locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...