[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

Playing the "the readership treats Adolin so badly" card is a form of victimization.  

How so?

 

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And how is this evidence, that the relationship between them is troubled right now? I don't see it. Adolin hasn't changed his attitude towards his father. Or vice versa.

Problems in relationships don't simply disappear, you know. Those problems are still there, undealt with. You ca see it in the way Adolin and Dalinar think of each other.

 

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No it isn't. We have confirmation through the Stormfather, that Oathbringer remembered Dalinar when Dalinar picked Oathbringer up

So you're comparing Maya talking and communicating to Adolin, to the Stormfather's throwaway line about a Blade Dalinar doesn't even carry anymore? Really?

 

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I don't deny a spiritual Connection might be building, but I don't see it as confirmation in the form of the revival must and will happen, which is what is constantly being propagated here

So why do you think Brandon went to all the trouble of showing all of these things happening to Maya then?

 

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The talking could also just be, because Adolin was close to the Cognitive Realm at the time so he was able to communicate with Maya, who while deadeyed is still a spren. Humans apparently don't have a problem with communicating with spren as long as they are in the Cognitive Realm. Also, during the fight Dalinar created a perpendicularity pulling the realms closer together, count these facts together and she might have been able to communicate with him because of that. There are too many variables to undeniably prove a forming Nahel bond.

So how do you explain away Maya saving Adolin then? When you put together everything that happened, it paint a clear picture of where Brandon is headed.

 

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Because maxal's prediction is, that it will just happen?

You're acting as if that means he'll wake up as a Radiant one day. Every Radiant so far has had a befitting journey to get there. Why do you believe Adolin will be any different?

 

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Just like Adolin, oh surprise, has a fitting dead Shardblade. And, oh surprise, of course is acting JUST right to revive Maya. That is just getting everything handed to him.

This is a totally meaningless statement. Every Radiant has to act in a certain way to bond a spren. Did they get everything handed to them too?

 

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

I'm sorry, but Teft is truly struggling with a drug addiction. Adolin's problems with not knowing his place, because he is not a Radiant, seems like a  tantrum by a child in comparison. 

I like how you ignored his messed up relationship with his father, the fact that his mother and uncle were murdered and that a bunch of his friends were betrayed and killed, so as to pretend as if Adolin's problems were inconsequential.

Suffering is NOT a competition. Just because one person is suffering more than someone else doesn't make the other person's problems meaningless, or that they aren't deserving of their own proportional share of compassion and understanding.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Mage of Lirigon

[BraidedRose]

I seem to have chosen a contentious moment to get caught back up with this thread. But I still feel compelled to dive in and try to take something of a (dangerous) middle ground on Adolin at least. 

First of all, @maxal I appreciate hearing your perspective an an Adolin lover on Shadolin as it stands so far. I think we agree so far as the romance being very one sided and in that way at least less than satisfying. One way which we disagree though is that I am gathering that you think it most likely that Brandon intended the romance to stand as is and are assuming therefore that he thought a one-sided romance would be satisfying in this instance. I am choosing to hope there is more to it. Of course we all risk letting our own perspectives color the way we interpret the text, and I know your reading was different, but for me the post below does some up why I think so:

On 2/9/2018 at 5:14 PM, DeployParachute said:

Come on now.  I've been pretty fair in my assessments of Shallan and Adolin's feelings for one another:

[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

I for one have never argued that Shallan does not have feelings for Adolin, or vice versa.  I believe their feelings for each other exist, and have always merited exploration of their relationship.  That being said, what I cannot get around is the fact that Brandon has laid out plenty of evidence both in text and in WoB for Shallan and Kaladin:

1. Brandon chose to write romantic interplay between them, that was both based on physical attraction, as well as emotional attraction.

2. This romantic interplay was not "resolved" in any manner where either party had an honest reflection of their feelings.  They both chose to ignore them, which means instead of being "resolved", it is now "shelved".  Because the author is intentionally shelving these feelings between the two instead of either of them addressing it, then it logically follows that the author intends to pull it off the shelf to be used in the Narrative later.

3. The author is also ON RECORD as saying that it was crucial to get the backstory of both Kaladin and Shallan done up front, because they are going to spend a SIGNIFICANT amount of time interacting together in forthcoming novels.

4.  The author is ON RECORD saying that the feelings that Shallan had been experiencing for Kaladin was more akin to "love", and was elevated to that of her feelings for Adolin.  The author has revealed that in his mind, the two relationships have the potential to be of the similar level, but with different manifestations (i.e. what Shallan wants now, vs what she might want in the future).  

5. The author is ON RECORD saying that what you are seeing with regards to Shallan, Kaladin, Adolin has been seen before.  Whether you want to consider that to be comparable to Dalinar, Gavilar, and Navani, or maybe even the more controversial Dalinar, Evi, Navani.  Regardless, what we see in either case is the story of a relationship and love between two that ENDS, and the starting of a relationship between one of them and the other.

Because the author has plans to increase the amount of signifiant time spent between Kaladin and Shallan, AND because he chose to not have them address their romantic feelings (Chekhov's gun) at this time, then it logically follows that it will be addressed in the future (firing the gun).

This is the evidence presented for us both in text, and by the author, and it has no bearing on how Shallan and Adolin feel about each other right now.  However, it does present strong evidence that what Shallan and Adolin do have is likely to END.  We can quibble about the details of how this might come about, but there is significant foreshadowing and presented evidence both in text and by the author that this is the direction we are heading.  

So my point is this, when you don't see a lot of discussion here defending the long term viability of Shallan and Adolin's marriage, it is because most of us have considered the evidence presented and decided that there IS NO long term viability for them from a narrative.  So, we try to imagine how that ending might come about.

I do not feel like I am taking exceedingly wild leaps in my logical processing of the evidence, or the way I am using that to project onto future narrative possibilities.  And that processing of the available evidence to date is this:  Shallan loves Adolin now, Shallan is highly likely to love Kaladin in the future.  She can love both, and she will love both.  

Do I like it that the author has decided to go this way?  Not necessarily.  I wish some things had been different, but wishing is not meaningful. We got what we got.  All that is left is to come to terms with it, both of us.

 I don't have much to add to the above, I just thought it was another excellent summary for those of us who think there may be more to come and the ending we got in OB was not as straightforward as it may appear. 

On Adolin himself, it seems there is no exhausting the different perspectives on his character and perhaps for good reason. I would argue part of the reason for that is that there really isn't another character in SA that is on the same level of importance to compare him with. So far we seem to have Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar as the main protagonists. Adolin seems next in both page time and importance but clearly not on the same level as those three. Szeth, Jasnah and I suppose Navani are perhaps next, but they are all currently secondary characters with far less page time than Adolin (though that will presumably change for some of them of course). And everyone else is not even close. Adolin seems to occupy a lonely middle ground between primary and secondary characters, leaving the reader unsure whether to expect more or less of him. I would also add that because he is a "normal" character among powerful magic users and he is nice, funny, etc while being not well fleshed out in one direction or another he is very open to the reader projecting his or her own ideas and wishes onto. Not to pick on maxal again, but below is one example:

On 2/8/2018 at 9:50 PM, maxal said:

My perspective is thus, when he breaks up with Shallan, he does not really want to break it up: he only does it because he sincerely believes Kaladin is the better man while thinking Shallan loves him more. He wants to do the right thing which is allowing Shallan to make her choice, removing the obligation to marry him, giving her the freedom to choose, without any ties. He however does love her, so when she chooses him, well, he's happy. I also took note how surprised he sounded upon hearing Shallan lists the things she loves about Adolin: he really never thought he was enough. He voices out his concerns later on, but Shallan insisted it didn't matter if he weren't a Radiant.

I'm definitely not saying you are wrong here, your interpretation is perfectly valid, but since we are given next to no insight into Adolin's thoughts when he breaks up with Shallan there are probably a dozen other equally valid interpretations that would all rely more or less on the reader supplying their own thoughts into the moment (again because Brandon does not supply us with Adolin's). To be fair you did clearly state this was your perspective and I really only highlighted it to make a larger point I wanted to make about all readers being at risk of reading too much into Adolin that may or may not be there given his unique place in the story currently. 

I for one, don't think the problem is a lack of page time for Adolin, just that those POVs didn't get used to their full potential (whether deliberate or not). I see no reason why we couldn't have been given a clearer perspective on Adolin's feelings for Shallan for example, but we didn't. I have to assume that was deliberate. I have a hard time with the idea that Brandon honestly didn't think it necessary to provide more from Adolin (WoB to the contrary could be taken with a grain of salt as you rightly point out in other instances). 

After reading many speculative posts on Adolin will revive Maya and become an Edgedancer, Adolin will go dark, Adolin will die, etc, I've come to the point of view that any of these are possible (and I don't think one rules out any of the others, though all three happening seems less likely). It is fun to speculate, and there are some hints for all, and probably in hindsight the foreshadowing will be clearer, but as it stands now it isn't clear enough. The one thing I don't believe is that Adolin has gotten this much page time just for him to continue to be a useful foil, Shallan's love interest, Dalinar's son, Kaladin's friend, without any meaningful arc of his own for the full 10 books. 

21 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

I strongly disagree that Shallan was stable enough to make this choice. 

I disagree with the WOB saying Shallan loves Adolin and Veil loves Kaladin. From what I read, love is too strong a word for any of the people in the triangle. Even though Shallan says she loves Adolin, I doubt her. 1. Because I believe she hates herself and I don't believe you can love someone romantically when you hate yourself. Shallan is needy, but not giving. 2. She does not appear to trust Adolin. Why does she only tell Adolin about the Ghostbloods after they are married? If she trusts him, why wait? Why have Veil tell him? She uses Veil as an excuse to not tell Jasnah about the Ghostbloods. I assume her relationship with Adolin is stronger than her relationship with Jasnah so she shouldn't need the same excuse of "Veil is the one involved with the Ghostbloods."

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Those who argue that Shallan made her choice to love Adolin and not Kaladin might be making a great argument if it weren't for Shallan's state when she made that choice. At least from my perspective she was in no position to do so. You make another great point about Shallan hating herself and therefore not being in position to really love someone else romantically. To add to that a little, perhaps she sees Adolin as being right for her because he "loves" the parts of her that she doesn't hate and has therefore allowed him to see. The other parts of herself she has systematically hidden bit by bit since she has known him. So with Adolin she gets to be only the "self" that she can accept and it helps her bury the rest that she herself can't deal with. 

On 2/5/2018 at 3:47 PM, Alderant said:

Personally, I've always found the "She reminds me of Tien" argument to be the among the weakest of the challenging arguments for saying that Kaladin isn't interested in Shallan. I don't know about many others, but I was always a very reserved, very private person, emotionally. I could go at length into how the dialogue conveys that Kaladin is very much into Shallan, just repressing those feelings for the sake of maintaining the peace. But that was something I did a lot in high school, so maybe that's why I read it that way.

I had to bring this back because I love the point you made and it is one of my pet peeves when someone tries to dismiss a pairing they don't like by saying the potential pairing reminds them of siblings. It's such a common argument that I agree is particularly weak. 

One last little point, I do have to question anyone arguing that Kaladin didn't have much reaction to Elhokar's death (or that he wouldn't have much reaction to Adolin's potential death). It really does seem like we are reading different books on that point, but others have already pointed out the relevant quotes there. 

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

You're acting as if that means he'll wake up as a Radiant one day. Every Radiant so far has had a befitting journey to get there. Why do you believe Adolin will be any different?

If anything, maxal did. Not me.

29 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Every Radiant has to act in a certain way to bond a spren. Did they get everything handed to them too?

Yeah, they either had to the almost broken beyond repair, so the Investiture can seep in. Or what we have also seen is some squires bonding spren, which also is something they had to work for. Szeth, for instance, needed to prove himself before the highspren. The honorspren also were watching Kaladin training his squires and some of them chose squires to bond with. The point is, that they had to work for it. And did not coincidentally have the correct dead Shardblade.

Sure, one could argue, that him talking to his blade before hand was "work", but another peeve of mine is that lucky golden boy Adolin always does the right thing - even when he doesn't even know why.

29 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

I like how you ignored his messed up relationship with his father, the fact that his mother and uncle were murdered and that a bunch of his friends were betrayed and killed, so as to pretend as if Adolin's problems were inconsequential.

29 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Problems in relationships don't simply disappear, you know. Those problems are still there, undealt with. You ca see it in the way Adolin and Dalinar think of each other.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying, that it doesn't seem like all of that is really affecting him (aside from the thing with his mother, which he doesn't know yet). This might change, it might not, but the current text suggests, that it rather does not.

29 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Suffering is NOT a competition. Just because one person is suffering more than someone else, doesn't make the other person's problems meaningless, or that they are deserving of the own proportional share of compassion and understanding.

You call being privileged and then not knowing your place in the world suffering?...

29 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

So you're comparing Maya talking and communicating to Adolin, to the Stormfather's throwaway line about a Blade Dalinar doesn't even carry anymore? Really?

29 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

So how do you explain away Maya saving Adolin then? When you put together everything that happened, it paint a clear picture of where Brandon is headed.

Like I said, Connection building. The line wasn't throwaway. It was evidence, that deadeyed spren remember their owners. Maybe even start to care for them.

Just now, Seize said:

I am pretty sure this has already been discussed in the thread, but I think that what @SLNC means is that the whole Adolin-revives-Maya-and-becomes-a-Radiant plotline is just one of the many things that fall on Adolin's laps without having him face any kind of conflict. He manages to revive a blade without knowing it, just by acting like his usual self, and because the blade he's been carrying all this time just so happen to fit his natural personality/behaviour as a guy who likes helping people? (yep, this is a bad rephrasing of a point made earlier...).

Conflicts and change are what makes a story/storyline interesting. But there isn't any in the Adolin-revives-Maya-and-becomes-a-Radiant plotline. A journey involves an evolution in a character, however, for now, it seems as if Adolin just has to keep doing what he's already doing.

Yes, this. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

Edited February 11, 2018 by SLNC

[Seize she/her]

6 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

You're acting as if that means he'll wake up as a Radiant one day. Every Radiant so far has had a befitting journey to get there. Why do you believe Adolin will be any different?

 

7 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

This is a totally meaningless statement. Every Radiant has to act in a certain way to bond a spren. Did they get everything handed to them too?

I am pretty sure this has already been discussed in the thread, but I think that what @SLNC means is that the whole Adolin-revives-Maya-and-becomes-a-Radiant plotline is just one of the many things that fall on Adolin's laps without having him face any kind of conflict. He manages to revive a blade without knowing it, just by acting like his usual self, and because the blade he's been carrying all this time just so happen to fit his natural personality/behaviour as a guy who likes helping people? (yep, this is a bad rephrasing of a point made earlier...).

Conflicts and change are what makes a story/storyline interesting. But there isn't any in the Adolin-revives-Maya-and-becomes-a-Radiant plotline. A journey involves an evolution in a character, however, for now, it seems as if Adolin just has to keep doing what he's already doing.
 

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

34 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Yeah, they either had to the almost broken beyond repair, so the Investiture can seep in. 

They're more to being Radiant than being broken, you know. You have to act in a way that attracts the spren. Adolin has done so, but apparently you feels as as if all that doesn't matter when he does it, because of your bias against Adolin.

 

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Sure, one could argue, that him talking to his blade before hand was "work", but another peeve of mine is that lucky golden boy Adolin always does the right thing - even when he doesn't even know why.

Kaladin or Shallan didn't know what they did to attract spren either, which they did long before they were even broken.

 

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I'm saying, that it doesn't seem like all of that is really affecting him (aside from the thing with his mother, which he doesn't know yet). 

So you didn't notice how Adolin's messed up relationship with his dad led to his serious self-esteem issues then?

 

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You call being privileged and then not knowing your place in the world suffering?...

Yet again, you act as if that was the only problem in Adolin's life. Family members dying violent deaths doesn't rank in your chart of suffering then? Or must he refer to it every other page for it to matter?

 

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Like I said, Connection building.

So when you take it in context of everything that happned after, you don't see it a sign of something greater to come?

 

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The line wasn't throwaway. It was evidence, that deadeyed spren remember their owners. Maybe even start to care for them.

And how is that comparable to a deadeyes actually communicating again?

 

33 minutes ago, Seize said:

I am pretty sure this has already been discussed in the thread, but I think that what @SLNC means is that the whole Adolin-revives-Maya-and-becomes-a-Radiant plotline is just one of the many things that fall on Adolin's laps without having him face any kind of conflict. He manages to revive a blade without knowing it, just by acting like his usual self, and because the blade he's been carrying all this time just so happen to fit his natural personality/behaviour as a guy who likes helping people? (yep, this is a bad rephrasing of a point made earlier...).

Conflicts and change are what makes a story/storyline interesting. But there isn't any in the Adolin-revives-Maya-and-becomes-a-Radiant plotline. A journey involves an evolution in a character, however, for now, it seems as if Adolin just has to keep doing what he's already doing.

Adolin's journey to being a Radiant has not ended yet. In fact, it's barely begun. Conflict will come later, it always does. Right now, it's enough to show that he is on the right path.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Mage of Lirigon

[Guest]

I'm sorry, but I don't want to take part in an interrogation. This is leading nowhere.

[lu-tze]

Can we get back to the more important topic which is:

Who should Kal romance: Jasnah or Syl?

Edited February 11, 2018 by lu-tze

[BraidedRose]

3 minutes ago, lu-tze said:

Can we get back to the more important topic which is:

Who should Kal romance: Jasnah or Syl?

 all right I’ll play along with that one. I love the relationship between Kal and Syl, it is easily one of my favorites (hence my avatar). But that said I’m firmly against any romance there. Leaving aside if it reasonable for a spren to be romantic I just don’t think it is necessary for there to be romance in this case. Their relationship is already special and awesome as is.

As for Jasnah, if there really is no future for Shalladin I could get on board with this ship. On the surface they seem like a mismatch but it could be interesting and she certainly seems to regard him with some kind of interest (not necessarily romantic) and that says something coming from Jasnah.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, lu-tze said:

Who should Kal romance: Jasnah or Syl?

No one. He isn't in the right state of mind for something like that. Just as Shallan should have chosen herself before Adolin or Kaladin.

[Ailvara]

Edit: you've managed to change the topic as I was typing xD but there it is:

I'm a bit conflicted on this one. I hate the thought of Adolin becoming a Radiant. For three reasons.

First, he already has all perks and privileges a person can have apart from Radiancy. If he gets also that, it'll be too much.

Second, at this (rather late) point in the story, given current scope of the whole series and Adolin's pagetime, it's unlikely we'd get a huge Maya revival arc. If it happens, it won't be anything too long or complicated. To me, it would diminish the struggle other characters had to go through. They started really low and gradually built themselves as Radiants, and Adolin would suddenly jump on this train in the middle of the journey? Even though he doesn't even need it? I don't like it at all. 

Finally, Adolin's purpose is to be a non-Radiant. To provide a different perspective is one part of it. To me, another one is to show the clash of the worlds, of the one that is fading away and the one that is emerging from chaos. He's the model of what used to make a man stand on the top of the world and a contrast to the emerging caste of the troubled superhumans, who will dominate the new one. I'm quite attached to this interpretation because it puts his character in a very broad context and gives justification for Adolin's oversimplification and perfection. 

That said, I can't agree that nothing will happen with Maya. If not for any other reason, then for one that Brandon wouldn't leave void hints for something that many readers were looking forward to so much. It would be a strikingly malicious breach of the "fulfill promises made to the reader" principle. 

My theory is that we'll have a bit of mirroring of what happened to Elhokar. There were hints he would become a Lightweaver and they did pay off, even if not entirely as one might predict. He was used to make Hoid a Lightweaver and give us a tragic moment. I can see something similar happening to Adolin. He could revive his spren to pave the way for others. But if he does, I can't see him staying around to enjoy it for too long. 

Edited February 11, 2018 by Ailvara

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

It would be a strikingly malicious breach of the "fulfill promises made to the reader" principle. 

I do agree, but he did that already. I mean... it is what this thread is mainly about. Shalladin was hinted as well and it didn't happen (yet).

But yeah, it would be another Chekhov's gun dilemma, but maybe some Adolin fans would understand our perspective for once then...

Edited February 11, 2018 by SLNC
i'm too dumb to type chekhov

[Ailvara]

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I do agree, but he did that already. I mean... it is what this thread is mainly about. Shalladin was hinted as well and it didn't happen (yet).

But yeah, it would be another Chekov's gun dilemma, but maybe some Adolin fans would understand our perspective for once then...

And we got to the conclusion that this cannot be (the end). Which I stand by 

Haha, if any of these turns out to be a broken promise, it'd probably indeed be better if both do. For the sake of balance in both the story and discussion. 

[wotbibliophile]

@Mage of Lirigon

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No offense, but Maya is barely a character right now, so saying you like Adolin but you like her a lot more than Adolin doesn't say much.

 

 

I like all of the spren more than almost all the human characters and I like the listeners/singers more than almost all the human characters. I like that they think differently than humans and that they live by different rules. I want to learn more about them. I find it really interesting.

 

 

I have preferences in what I want to read, but I still enjoy other things. I want to read about Rlain more than Rock, but that’s just a little preference. I like reading about Rock. I want to read about Maya more than Adolin, but Adolin is the reason Maya might be revived. Reading about Adolin maybe reviving Maya would be enjoyable. Adolin is the reason Maya can speak or move. I like him even more for reviving Maya a tiny bit.

 

 

@maxal I have different standards for children than adults. I have different standards for civilians than soldiers. You may see it differently. I can disregard Dalinar all day long. Kaladin was a slave, not a soldier when he saved Bridge 4. His job as a bridgeman was to die. There were other former soldiers among the bridgemen. Everyone had given up, everyone was apathetic. Kaladin was the exception. It was not his job to save Bridge 4. No one wanted him to do it, no one believed there was any good in saving bridgemen, many of whom were criminals. Kaladin saved them anyway.

 

 

Adolin is a soldier and a shardbearer. I do think it was his job to defend the city and as soon as someone more able (Renarin) was there to fight the thunderclast, he went on to defend another part of the city. This time fighting against people he could defeat.

 

 

@Mage of Lirigon

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You're right that that was his duty as a soldier, but I do think many people in his situation would have given up that child for dead out of sheer pragmatism. That was a clear sign of Edgedancer values: focusing on smaller issues rather than the big picture. 

 

 

I agree with this.

1 hour ago, BraidedRose said:

To add to that a little, perhaps she sees Adolin as being right for her because he "loves" the parts of her that she doesn't hate and has therefore allowed him to see. The other parts of herself she has systematically hidden bit by bit since she has known him. So with Adolin she gets to be only the "self" that she can accept and it helps her bury the rest that she herself can't deal with. 

I agree.

46 minutes ago, lu-tze said:

Can we get back to the more important topic which is:

Who should Kal romance: Jasnah or Syl?

Well if not Shallan or Adolin then Jasnah. I love Syl, but I'm pretty sure they're just friends.

ETA:

1 hour ago, BraidedRose said:

After reading many speculative posts on Adolin will revive Maya and become an Edgedancer, Adolin will go dark, Adolin will die, etc, I've come to the point of view that any of these are possible (and I don't think one rules out any of the others, though all three happening seems less likely). It is fun to speculate, and there are some hints for all, and probably in hindsight the foreshadowing will be clearer, but as it stands now it isn't clear enough. The one thing I don't believe is that Adolin has gotten this much page time just for him to continue to be a useful foil, Shallan's love interest, Dalinar's son, Kaladin's friend, without any meaningful arc of his own for the full 10 books.

 

It has been said on these forums that if we guess everything we can't be wrong!

Edited February 11, 2018 by wotbibliophile

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

32 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Second, at this (rather late) point in the story, given current scope of the whole series and Adolin's pagetime, it's unlikely we'd get a huge Maya revival arc. If it happens, it won't be anything too long or complicated. That said, I can't agree that nothing will happen with Maya. If not for any other reason, then for one that Brandon wouldn't leave void hints for something that many readers were looking forward to so much. It would be a strikingly malicious breach of the "fulfill promises made to the reader" principle. 

I think there's plenty of story left to tell a satisfying Maya revival arc. If this were any other series or any other writer I could agree with more, but this series is huge I don't think this is a problem here.

 

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To me, it would diminish the struggle other characters had to go through. They started really low and gradually built themselves as Radiants, and Adolin would suddenly jump on this train in the middle of the journey? Even though he doesn't even need it? I don't like it at all. 

Why does everyone assume that Adolin is simply going to appear as a Radiant without the same struggles that everyone else went through to get there?

 

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Finally, Adolin's purpose is to be a non-Radiant. To provide a different perspective is one part of it. To me, another one is to show the clash of the worlds, of the one that is fading away and the one that is emerging from chaos. He's the model of what used to make a man stand on the top of the world and a contrast to the emerging caste of the troubled superhumans, who will dominate the new one.

Characters can have different purposes or the purpose they have can change, you know.

 

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I'm quite attached to this interpretation because it puts his character in a very broad context and gives justification for Adolin's oversimplification and perfection. 

Adolin is hardly oversimplified or perfect, though I suppose that he can appear so, compared to characters like Kaladin or Shallan.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Mage of Lirigon

[Guest]

@Ailvara

Adding a thing: I also think, that something will happen with Maya, I just don't know what yet. And I also don't think, that we can reliably predict what yet.

Understandibly, Adolin fans are latching onto the idea, that Adolin will revive Maya and become an Edgedancer in the process. And for some reason take it extremely personal, when I point out, that it could be something else too.

I just want to be allowed to do that. I'm ready to be wrong, though.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 hour ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

2 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Finally, Adolin's purpose is to be a non-Radiant. To provide a different perspective is one part of it. To me, another one is to show the clash of the worlds, of the one that is fading away and the one that is emerging from chaos. He's the model of what used to make a man stand on the top of the world and a contrast to the emerging caste of the troubled superhumans, who will dominate the new one.

Characters can have different purposes or the purpose they have can change, you know.

Characters can have multiple purposes too, Lirigon. This is Brandon we're talking about

In my opinion Ailvara, "non-Radiant" is not specific enough to be a narrative purpose. Navani and Adolin are both non-Radiants, but I see their purposes as quite different. The squires technically count as "not Radiants" too, but I wouldn't consider their narrative purpose to be the same as the aforementioned Kholins. Would you?

Edited February 11, 2018 by The One Who Connects
are/as . was/were . Grammar Rewrites :\

[Vissy]

3 hours ago, Ailvara said:

My theory is that we'll have a bit of mirroring of what happened to Elhokar. There were hints he would become a Lightweaver and they did pay off, even if not entirely as one might predict. He was used to make Hoid a Lightweaver and give us a tragic moment. I can see something similar happening to Adolin. He could revive his spren to pave the way for others. But if he does, I can't see him staying around to enjoy it for too long. 

I actually think that someone *else* might revive Maya, or then Adolin will create a totally new type of relationship with the "dead" spren. Not Radiancy, but something where the spren becomes sentient (but stuck in the blade anyway). So a sentient blade 2.0? Or maybe Mayalaran would be free to roam around and leave Adolin once he's revived her enough? Maybe that's not possible, who knows, but I'd like for the Maya story arc to go somewhere satisfying rather than it being an Elhokar-type shock death or a boring "oh he's a Radiant too now" moment.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Vissy

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

How is pointing out that certain parts of the readership treat Adolin unfairly victimizing him?

Thank you.

9 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Did you perhaps miss the parts where we see Dalinar trying to live vicariously through Adolin while also neglecting him, and how that shaped Adolin's self-estem issues?

Again, thank you.

9 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

I admit you have a point here, about how viewpoints are used being more than the sheer number of them. And yet, I can't imagine Brandon would would spend so much time giving Adolin so many viewpoints if he was only ever going to be an observer of events.

Another thank you: why would Brandon waste valuable page time on a useless character having no significance within the narrative?

9 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

So Maya saves Adolin, gives him her name, communicates with him isn't confirmation enough? If you saw another character doing the same with a spren, would you say the same thing? Will he have to swear an Oath before you see it as confirmed?

Yes, precisely, thank you. How is this arc more insignificant than any other arc we got? Just because it is about Adolin it has to be trashed down and destroyed? Had it happen to ANY other character, NOBODY would be saying it is inconsequential.

9 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

So why do you see it as Adolin getting everything handed to him? 

No Radiant has ever had an easy path so far, and Maya is still kinda dead, so that makes it even harder. What makes you think this will somehow be easy?

YES. What Adolin is getting is about a thousand times harder than anyone else, how about we start to appreciate what is actually happening?

 

9 hours ago, SLNC said:

Playing the "the readership treats Adolin so badly" card is a form of victimization.

Maybe it exists because it is true. Push, but push fairly. Adolin did not get the story arc we all wanted him to get, myself the first, you know this, but is wasn't complete garbage either. Stating it isn't garbage isn't victimizing Adolin, it is having a more rational view onto what the author actually wrote. Was it up to my expectations? NO. But it isn't as negative as you make it out to be: there is a middle ground in between. I am trying to view it in a more positive way than I was, meet me half-way.

9 hours ago, SLNC said:

And how is this evidence, that the relationship between them is troubled right now? I don't see it. Adolin hasn't changed his attitude towards his father. Or vice versa.

He didn't get the chance to. Adolin and Dalinar barely inter-acted within the narrative. Am I pleased with it? Nope. But I think it is premature to pass judgment on it considering both characters didn't get the chance to inter-act. This may gone within book 4 or not, but it is false to state Adolin's relationship with his father is NOT troubled. It is. He basically states how Dalinar wants him to be a man he is not.

9 hours ago, SLNC said:

No it isn't. We have confirmation through the Stormfather, that Oathbringer remembered Dalinar when Dalinar picked Oathbringer up. I don't deny a spiritual Connection might be building, but I don't see it as confirmation in the form of the revival must and will happen, which is what is constantly being propagated here.

The talking could also just be, because Adolin was close to the Cognitive Realm at the time so he was able to communicate with Maya, who while deadeyed is still a spren. Humans apparently don't have a problem with communicating with spren as long as they are in the Cognitive Realm. Also, during the fight Dalinar created a perpendicularity pulling the realms closer together, count these facts together and she might have been able to communicate with him because of that. There are too many variables to undeniably prove a forming Nahel bond.

It is not anywhere near the same. Oathbringer did not screamed and remembered Dalinar: it still did not give out her/his name. It still did not try to communicate with Dalinar. It jus recognized him. Period. What happened with Maya was magnitude more significant than anything Oathbrigner did.

Maya communicated with Adolin both after and before the perpendicularity happened. It had nothing to do with it.

8 hours ago, SLNC said:

What? Adolin has lots of PoVs. My point is, that these PoVs are almost never used to convey these supposed thoughts and troubles. And when there is introspection it is exceptionally superficial.

You are being purposefully negative. Adolin had several introspective POV. He had more than within previous books. He had more than any other characters but three.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, maxal said:

Maybe it exists because it is true. Push, but push fairly. Adolin did not get the story arc we all wanted him to get, myself the first, you know this, but is wasn't complete garbage either. Stating it isn't garbage isn't victimizing Adolin, it is having a more rational view onto what the author actually wrote. Was it up to my expectations? NO. But it isn't as negative as you make it out to be: there is a middle ground in between. I am trying to view it in a more positive way than I was, meet me half-way.

You're doing it again.

6 hours ago, maxal said:

Yes, precisely, thank you. How is this arc more insignificant than any other arc we got? Just because it is about Adolin it has to be trashed down and destroyed? Had it happen to ANY other character, NOBODY would be saying it is inconsequential.

6 hours ago, maxal said:

Maya communicated with Adolin both after and before the perpendicularity happened.

No, she didn't. All she did was say her name ONCE, right after the perpendicularity happened.

6 hours ago, maxal said:

It is not anywhere near the same. Oathbringer did not screamed and remembered Dalinar: it still did not give out her/his name. It still did not try to communicate with Dalinar. It jus recognized him. Period. What happened with Maya was magnitude more significant than anything Oathbrigner did.

But this is just it. We don't really know what is happening. That is all I'm saying. We can make hypotheses all day long, but that doesn't make either of our perspectives undeniably right.

You obviously don't want to understand, so let us just keep it at that. Same goes for you @Mage of Lirigon

6 hours ago, maxal said:

This may gone within book 4 or not, but it is false to state Adolin's relationship with his father is NOT troubled. It is. He basically states how Dalinar wants him to be a man he is not.

Correct would be: "There is the possibility of future trouble between Adolin and his father, but we can't correctly predict how it will play out right now, since neither Adolin or Dalinar show a troubled relationship or trouble brewing as of the currently released material."

Edited February 12, 2018 by SLNC

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

4 hours ago, SLNC said:

You're doing it again.

If you're going to complain of people victimising Adolin, perhaps you'd like to explain how they're doing so?

 

Quote

But this is just it. We don't really know what is happening. That is all I'm saying. We can make hypotheses all day long, but that doesn't make either of our perspectives undeniably right.

Maya is communicating with and actively helping Adolin. It started before the perpendicularity so you can't use that as an excuse. If it were anyone else, would you really hesitate to say that they're bonding a spren? Why does Adolin need to jump through extra hoops?

 

Quote

Correct would be: "There is the possibility of future trouble between Adolin and his father, but we can't correctly predict how it will play out right now, since neither Adolin or Dalinar show a troubled relationship or trouble brewing as of the currently released material."

So, you think Adolin's near blind worship of his father and the resulting self-esteem issues it causes him don't show a troubled relationship then? You don't think Adolin confessing to killing Sadeas and how it shook Dalinar's view of him isn't trouble on the horizon?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

If you're going to complain of people victimising Adolin, perhaps you'd like to explain how they're doing so?

By putting him into the role of the victim, going all "poor boy" Adolin has it so bad, because there are some, who don't particularly like his character and dare to express this. All it is is a cheap tactic to stir up support by evoking pity. 

People are constantly criticising Kaladin, Shallan (especially her) and Dalinar - harshly at that. Adolin is hardly the only one, who gets criticised, but those people, who are victimizing him, say, that he is the only one getting harsh criticism. That is just plain wrong.

1 hour ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Maya is communicating with and actively helping Adolin. It started before the perpendicularity so you can't use that as an excuse. If it were anyone else, would you really hesitate to say that they're bonding a spren? Why does Adolin need to jump through extra hoops?

I don't see how this is relevant. All I have done is propose a different possibility, I don't know if it is correct or not. I'm ready for it to be wrong. I have already stated that.

Then again, I already told you, that I'm no longer interested in being interrogated by you. Especially about this topic.

1 hour ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

You don't think Adolin confessing to killing Sadeas and how it shook Dalinar's view of him isn't trouble on the horizon?

How it shook his view? Are you serious?

Quote

Adolin was not the man Dalinar had thought he was—but then, couldn’t he forgive someone for that?

Absolutely shaken. Can't even look his son in the eyes anymore. Man, this is unforgivable.

Look, Dalinar has already forgiven Adolin for this. The text says it right there.

Also, I would very much appreciate, if you'd actually engage with the things, that I say and not just ask (the same) questions over and over again.

Edited February 12, 2018 by SLNC

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

23 minutes ago, SLNC said:

By putting him into the role of the victim, going all "poor boy" Adolin has it so bad, because there are some, who don't particularly like his character and dare to express this. All it is is a cheap tactic to stir up support by evoking pity.

I don't care if people like or don't like Adolin, and I'd appreciate it if you don't try to ignore other people's opinons by reducing them to 'cheap ploys.'

 

Quote

People are constantly criticising Kaladin, Shallan (especially her) and Dalinar - harshly at that. Adolin is hardly the only one, who gets criticised, but those people, who are victimizing him, say, that he is the only one getting harsh criticism. That is just plain wrong.

Why are you bringing up Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar here? They may get criticised elsewhere, but in this thread, it's Adolin that recieves the brunt of the criticism, so there's no point bringing them up in this context. Furthermore, I've never complained about Adolin receiving harsh treatment, nor would I care about that. My issue is that people are giving Adolin unfair treatment.

 

Quote

I don't see how this is relevant. All I have done is propose a different possibility, I don't know if it is correct or not. I'm ready for it to be wrong. I have already stated that.

I simply find it odd that while Adolin is doing the same thing as everyone else and their spren, people seem to go out of their way to find answers out of nowhere to negate what he is doing.

 

Quote

How it shook his view? Are you serious?

Absolutely shaken. Can't even look his son in the eyes anymore. Man, this unforgivable. Look, Dalinar has already forgiven Adolin for this. The text says it right there

In point of fact, Dalinar asks himself whether he could forgive Adolin, and tellingly, he doesn't answer the question to himself. When viewed in context, with how Dalinar has been pushing his expectations onto Adolin from the day of his birth it seems a clear sign to me that the matter is not done with. If you see differently, then that is your prerogative.

 

Quote

Also, I would very much appreciate, if you'd actually engage with the things, that I say and not just ask (the same) questions over and over again.

I ask question because I desire answers. If I ask the same questions multiple times, it is because I have not received any answers. Please don't take it as a sign of non-engagement with what you say.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Mage of Lirigon

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

and I'd appreciate it if you don't try to ignore other people's opinons by reducing them to 'cheap ploys.'

I'm not reducing anyone's opinion. All I'm saying, that the argumentative tactic is a cheap ploy. What does this have to do with opinions?

7 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Why are you bringing up Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar here? They may get criticised elsewhere, but in this thread, it's Adolin that recieves the brunt of the criticism, so there's no point bringing them up in this context.

Because the meta-argument was made in a larger scope. I just responded in kind.

Quote

Furthermore, I've never complained about Adolin receiving harsh treatment, nor would I care about that. My issue is that people are giving Adolin unfair treatment.

Furthermore, it originally was something between maxal and myself. You were the one, that interfered in it.

10 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

In point of fact, Dalinar asks himself whether he could forgive Adolin, and tellingly, he doesn't answer the question to himself. When viewed in context, with how Dalinar has been pushing his expectations onto Adolin from the day of his birth it seems a clear sign to me that the matter is not done with. If you see differently, then that is your prerogative.

I really don't get it. He's seeing, that he was wrong in his perception of Adolin, but says at the same time, that he himself wasn't the best role model either ("but then, couldn't he [Dalinar] forgive someone for that"), so if someonce could forgive him, then Dalinar. Remember that this was after Dalinar accepted his pain and shortly before he began to write "Oathbringer, My Glory and My Shame".

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I'm not reducing anyone's opinion. All I'm saying, that the argumentative tactic is a cheap ploy. What does this have to do with opinions?

Maxal and I brought up some issues with how we feel Adolin is being unfairly treated by some members in this thread, or even the larger fandom. Instead of having a frank discussion about why we believe that to be the case and you don't, you use words like 'victimising' and 'cheap ploys' to lessen the legitimacy of our line of questioning. That is reducing our opinions.

 

Quote

Because the meta-argument was made in a larger scope. I just responded in kind.

I see.

 

Quote

I really don't get it. He's seeing, that he was wrong in his perception of Adolin, but says at the same time, that he himself wasn't the best role model either ("but then, couldn't he [Dalinar] forgive someone for that"), so if someonce could forgive him, then Dalinar. Remember that this was after Dalinar accepted his pain and shortly before he began to write "Oathbringer, My Glory and My Shame".

My opinion is that this was a clear piece of foreshadowing hinting at a future plot development between Dalinar and Adolin, in terms of their relationship, perhaps leading into the revelation of Evi's death.

If you don't share this opinion, I'd like to have a discussion with on the subject, if you're willing.

[GarrethGrey]

2 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Maya is communicating with and actively helping Adolin. It started before the perpendicularity so you can't use that as an excuse. If it were anyone else, would you really hesitate to say that they're bonding a spren? Why does Adolin need to jump through extra hoops?

He's supposdly reviving a dead blade. Nobody in thousands of years has done this. This isn't some normal spren that he's potentially bonding, you can't compare the two. Why would Adolin not have to jump through extra hoops? 

29 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

I simply find it odd that while Adolin is doing the same thing as everyone else and their spren, people seem to go out of their way to find answers out of nowhere to negate what he is doing.

Again, Adolin is not doing the same thing, its not that hard to understand. Reviving a dead blade, there is no precedent, it has never happened, so there is no process, you can't compare the two. Nobody is going out of their way to find answers to negate what is potentially happening, I find it to be logical to question something that has never happened before, and try to find reasons as to why it might or might not be happening, and what other things could potentially come from what we've seen. Could he potentially revive her? Yes. Do I think we've seen enough in the text to say he is 100% going to revive her? No.