[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[insert_anagram_here]

'wicked-looking' isn't a special descriptor enough huh?

Edit: 

Also, the Fused doesn't seem that amused about getting a satisfying kill.

Quote

The Fused seemed almost bored as he yanked the lance out

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by insert_anagram_here

[Vissy]

1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said:

'wicked-looking' isn't a special descriptor enough huh?

Edit: 

Also, the Fused doesn't seem that amused about getting a satisfying kill.

 

Not really, it's exceedingly common in fantasy.

Yeah, he's bored. Which is exactly why he'd want to make it a bit more fun for himself. He's not feeling the fight at all. He doesn't consider Adolin a threat.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Vissy

[insert_anagram_here]

Yeah, it could be. It could also be a placeholder for him to decide what to do later on. Who knows.

[Vissy]

Sanderson is a very thorough planner. I find it unlikely that that's something he would do as an author - it doesn't fit his style at all. Still, I suppose we'll see later on whether or not there are more "wicked-looking swords" with the Fused, and when and why they use them.

[Walkerxes]

So.. without reading the.. holy rust 95 pages of this... Kaladin-Adolin-Shallan love triangle over.. and couldn't be happier! Unnecessary plot twist, especially since Kaladin and Shallan are an abysmal match!

 

On 12/02/2018 at 11:46 AM, insert_anagram_here said:

Are they definitely on the path to being a Radiant? @Mage of Lirigon Is this how it normally happens with all the other Radiants? Why are you so sure of this?

Simply put, it's obvious. They've talked about reviving dead blades prior.. part of what it would take is knowing the spren (Maya) and knowing which Radiant bonded the spren.. they have records of who held what blades when.. further.. why take Adolin to Shadesmar, have him meet Maya, have him LEARN MAYA'S NAME, and then no have him revive her, thus gaining his own radiance. And join the Edgedancers, as Maya has a similar appearance to Wyndel.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Greywatch
Remember to edit your posts, not double post.

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, Walkerxes said:

Unnecessary plot twist, especially since Kaladin and Shallan are an abysmal match!

If you’re actually looking to discuss, maybe give some reasons why you feel this way?

[The One Who Connects]

3 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

If you’re actually looking to discuss, maybe give some reasons why you feel this way?

He's been told to come here from another topic, so here's his post from that topic as a starter:

Quote

I actually felt that the addition of an Adolin/Kaladin/Shallan love triangle was a copout. She was all about Adolin until falling into the chasm.. not to mention there's nothing in common with Kaladin and Shallan. I felt that the "love triangle" was needless filler for a Kardashian audience. Unnecessary. Lyn would be a way better fit for Kaladin anyway. Shallan is simply the only thing we have for a female protagonist, so hinting at a romance for the man male protagonist (Kaladin) is almost obligatory. So Sanderson toyed with it to meet expectations, then subsequently rejected it because, in the end, Adolin makes the absolute most sense for Shallan. I highly doubt we'll even see a Kaladin romance. It's unnecessary. He's all about protecting people, not wooing the local women.

Edit: (I figure he's offline, and he'd end up saying most of this anyway, so why not jumpstart the discussion?)

Edited February 20, 2018 by The One Who Connects
Also: Post 2,900

[Dreamstorm]

8 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

(I figure he's offline, and he'd end up saying most of this anyway, so why not jumpstart the discussion?)

Sounds good! (And congrats on the posting milestone ) I’m going to leave the personal opinion bits out of it @Walkerxes and just focus quickly on the book parts on your post. (And I’m sorry TOWC that all of these below quote you!)

9 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

She was all about Adolin until falling into the chasm

Agreed, though some will debate she had a latent attraction for Kaladin given their couple argumentative scenes. Even without that interpretation, it’s not out of the question for a late teens girl to have romantic feelings for someone else, especially given Adolin was a very new romance and one set up by political expediency.

11 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

not to mention there's nothing in common with Kaladin and Shallan

You’ll find a lot of disagreement on this one. If you look at the first post, there’s a google doc which compiles a lot of the Kaladin/Shallan arguments. Off the top of my head, Kal/Shallan similarities include banter/humor, interest in scholarship and passion (Shallan’s true nature according to Brandon.) The main “nothing in common” item which seems to be batted around is their stations prior to OB (lighteyes vs darkeyes), which is negated by the fact they are both now Radiants (another similarity.)

15 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Lyn would be a way better fit for Kaladin anyway

For whatever reason, I haven’t seen the Kalalyn (?) ship that much! (Tons is Jasnah and Syl though.) I have heard people object to the commander/subordinate relationship and also the fact their only real interaction is Kal being all sexist about women as Radiants. Why do they work well for you together?

18 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Adolin makes the absolute most sense for Shallan.

A popular viewpoint, but do you want to expand on your reasons? 

19 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I highly doubt we'll even see a Kaladin romance. It's unnecessary. He's all about protecting people, not wooing the local women.

Regardless of the Shalladin outcome, I think it is unlikely Kaladin comes out of the five book arc without a serious relationship. OB is full of Kal and romance aspects; seeing Laral again, reminiscing about Tarah, Syl constantly pestering Kaladin about girls (and that’s not even including Shallan.) Brandon loves writing romance and given the fact it was inserted into Kaladin’s storyline heavily in OB, I imagine our good Windrunner won’t be all alone in his captain quarters for too long. (Did he ever get those back from Rock?? Legit worry of mine )

[The One Who Connects]

It's like you people forget copy/paste exists

Quote

(And I’m sorry TOWC that all of these below quote you!)

(Honestly, I don't care. You made one post, so it's only one notification, no matter how many quote bubbles you did. Over and done with already)

Edited February 20, 2018 by The One Who Connects

[Dreamstorm]

4 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

It's like you people forget copy/paste exists

(Honestly, I don't care. You made one post, so it's only one notification, no matter how many quote bubbles you did. Over and done with already)

That would have been wayyyy too much effort for a Monday night 

[Walkerxes]

Ok! Great to be here, thanks for responses, and also thanks for quoting over a comment I made in another post! *Rubs hands together* 

So.. an abysmal match? Shallan and Kal both are far too self-absorbed, for one. Yes, Adolin has some of that as well, but at the same time is also able to focus on something outside himself (Shallan, her well being, etc. Not once does Kaladin even express concern for Shallan, her ordeals, her obvious problems.. with the exception of making her laugh to forget getting stabbed in the palace.. basically, total friend zone). Even Kaladin's need to protect bridge 4 members is self serving.. he doesn't want to feel like a failure. Yes, he cares, but it's as much self serving as it is altruistic.

Sure, he's all hot and brooding and "bad boy" so Shallan has some wayward attraction, but in the end, Sadeus murder aside, Adolin is way more stable, which Shallan definitely needs. 

More, the whole scene where Kaladin praises her for, essentially, unhealthy mental practices.. she's actually uncomfortable, recognizing that her way is not a good way, and directly dealing with her issues would be better (not that she actually does this). Where instead Adolin accepts her in spite of her problems, providing a stable place to lean while she actually deals (we hope eventually) with her issues. 

Not to mention, both Adolin and Shallan are straight up murderers. Kaladin might not dispute either rationale for their murderers.. he hated Sadeus, and might recognize the self-defense..Ness.. of Shallan's patricide, but both are outside of what his oaths, thus far, would allow. Adolin has sworn no such oaths/ideals (yet), and Shallan speaks truths, not oaths. 

Kal has some book learning, yes, but doesn't have the easy jovial nature that Shallan and Adolin have (except, oddly, with Adolin.. but he brings that out in people). His attempts at humor with her are forced, at best.. and seem almost that he's trying too hard. Not to mention taking much of what she says in jest far too serious.. although I expect some of her "jokes" with Kal were less joke than she'd admit.. passive/aggressive pokes because she knows he killed her brother, yet knows he's really not at fault, but can't help but blame him some.

Uh... Did I leave anything out? Hmm...

 

Oh.. and also.. people here keep saying Shalladin, like Benifer or Bradjelina.. which immediately makes me hate any Kaladin Shallan pairing

 

Oh! Lyn! Admittedly, I dragged her name from way out of left field. She's a relatively unknown at this point, however, being a more duty/goal oriented sort, she's still more a match for Kal. Kal needs someone more grounded, so to speak, than Shallan.

In the end, though, I really do like the idea of Kaladin staying single. I recognize that probably won't happen, but I think it's more than ok to not have every protagonist matched up with a love interest.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Greywatch
Please stop double and triple posting.

[Alderant]

11 minutes ago, Walkerxes said:

Oh.. and also.. people here keep saying Shalladin, like Benifer or Bradjelina.. which immediately makes me hate any Kaladin Shallan pairing

Just a point of note on forum eitquette, as I’ll get to your thoughts tomorrow (It’s late, I’m tired), I’ve noticed you double post a lot. While we love hearing your thoughts, if you have additional thoughts to your post and no one’s posted a reply yet, please edit your comment rather than making another reply. 

You can do it however you want. My method is

EDIT:

Here’s my edits or additions to my post. 

Doing that just helps kind of keep the arguments together and takes up less forum space (not that I should really talk about this...my posts are usually long).

Welcome to the thread!

[Walkerxes]

3 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Just a point of note on forum eitquette, as I’ll get to your thoughts tomorrow (It’s late, I’m tired), I’ve noticed you double post a lot. While we love hearing your thoughts, if you have additional thoughts to your post and no one’s posted a reply yet, please edit your comment rather than making another reply. 

You can do it however you want. My method is

EDIT:

Here’s my edits or additions to my post. 

Doing that just helps kind of keep the arguments together and takes up less forum space (not that I should really talk about this...my posts are usually long).

Welcome to the thread!

You're right.. it's been awhile since I've forumed and my etiquette has gone down the crapper.. I'll improve, just have to regain my sea legs. Sorry for that

Edit (see, learning!)

Pardon if I come off overbearing.. it's been awhile since I've been able to discuss books I've read, so I get a bit excited

Edited February 20, 2018 by Walkerxes
Flighty

[Alderant]

Just now, Walkerxes said:

You're right.. it's been awhile since I've forumed and my etiquette has gone down the crapper.. I'll improve, just have to regain my sea legs. Sorry for that

It’s all right. No worries. I just wanted to point it out before a mod got on your case.

[insert_anagram_here]

9 hours ago, Walkerxes said:

Simply put, it's obvious

If it's obvious, it doesn't mean it's going to happen. Sometimes it's a red herring. Think about Elhokar, he was obviously going to save his son and there were hints that he would become a Lightweaver. Did he?

7 hours ago, Walkerxes said:

Shallan and Kal both are far too self-absorbed, for one. Yes, Adolin has some of that as well, but at the same time is also able to focus on something outside himself (

Personally it bothered me that Adolin was playing the dress up during a very serious mission such as the Kholinar infiltration, which is occupied and with a severe security risk level raised. There are people dying out on the streets, 3 Unmade corrupting everything, he is escorting the couped king whom he is supposed to protect, he is part of the princedom, the rightfully legal ruling family, but he has time to care for having his clothes tailored (which currently I have no idea why and I'm too afraid to ask). All the while, Kaladin is trying to infiltrate the city guard in order to free the city and Shallan is trying to feed the people but gets her conscience crushed because she couldn't save a single kid. Yeah, that's so self-absorbed isn't it?

Welcome to the thread btw and even though you are expressing very good points, none of them is new on this thread. Simply put, there are 95 pages here because there were so many points to address in this discussion. I would kindly advise that you at least go read the document linked above.

Edited February 20, 2018 by insert_anagram_here

[Walkerxes]

5 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

If it's obvious, it doesn't mean it's going to happen. Sometimes it's a red herring. Think about Elhokar, he was obviously going to save his son and there were hints that he would become a Lightweaver. Did he?

Personally it bothered me that Adolin was playing the dress up during a very serious mission such as the Kholinar infiltration, which is occupied and with a severe security risk level raised. There are people dying out on the streets, 3 Unmade corrupting everything, he is escorting the couped king whom he is supposed to protect, he is part of the princedom, the rightfully legal ruling family, but he has time to care for having his clothes tailored (which currently I have no idea why and I'm too afraid to ask). All the while, Kaladin is trying to infiltrate the city guard in order to free the city and Shallan is trying to feed the people but gets her conscience crushed because she couldn't save a single kid. Yeah, that's so self-absorbed isn't it?

Welcome to the thread btw and even though you are expressing very good points, none of them is new on this thread. Simply put, there are 95 pages here because there were so many points to address in this discussion. I would kindly advise that you at least go read the document linked above.

But was he playing dress up, or acting the part of a lighteyes? His and Elhokar's mission was to secure the support of local lighteyed lords in the city, for which you have to look the part. Sure Shallan could have provided illusory clothing, but even in her own disguises she uses real elements in attire. Did he play a bit with fashion? Sure. But then Kaladin got to play soldier, Shallan got to play Robin Hood, Elhokar got to play...at whatever Elhokar likes to play at..

[Athena]

13 hours ago, Walkerxes said:

 

Sure, he's all hot and brooding and "bad boy" so Shallan has some wayward attraction, but in the end, Sadeus murder aside, Adolin is way more stable, which Shallan definitely needs. 

More, the whole scene where Kaladin praises her for, essentially, unhealthy mental practices.. she's actually uncomfortable, recognizing that her way is not a good way, and directly dealing with her issues would be better (not that she actually does this). Where instead Adolin accepts her in spite of her problems, providing a stable place to lean while she actually deals (we hope eventually) with her issues. 

 

2

I kinda disagree that Adolin brings Shallan stability. Does he make her happy? Yes but only one part of herself. It has already been mentioned in the thread that Veil and Radiant are just as important to Shallan's identity as the "Shallan" that Adolin has fallen in love with. Brandon Sanderson himself has stated that they would all have one identity in the Spiritual Realm, and both Radiant and Veil have traits that were seen in Shallan before she had her whole identity crisis in Oathbringer. In my opinion, Adolin just loving one part of herself is going to lead to more problems for her. 

I'm not trying to go against the Adolin and Shallan pairing, I mean it is completely possible that he will learn love all three parts of herself, but as of now, his doubt on being able to love all three during their talk before the marriage doesn't make things look good.

 

[agrabes]

13 hours ago, Walkerxes said:

Ok! Great to be here, thanks for responses, and also thanks for quoting over a comment I made in another post! *Rubs hands together* 

So.. an abysmal match? Shallan and Kal both are far too self-absorbed, for one. Yes, Adolin has some of that as well, but at the same time is also able to focus on something outside himself (Shallan, her well being, etc. Not once does Kaladin even express concern for Shallan, her ordeals, her obvious problems.. with the exception of making her laugh to forget getting stabbed in the palace.. basically, total friend zone). Even Kaladin's need to protect bridge 4 members is self serving.. he doesn't want to feel like a failure. Yes, he cares, but it's as much self serving as it is altruistic.

Sure, he's all hot and brooding and "bad boy" so Shallan has some wayward attraction, but in the end, Sadeus murder aside, Adolin is way more stable, which Shallan definitely needs. 

More, the whole scene where Kaladin praises her for, essentially, unhealthy mental practices.. she's actually uncomfortable, recognizing that her way is not a good way, and directly dealing with her issues would be better (not that she actually does this). Where instead Adolin accepts her in spite of her problems, providing a stable place to lean while she actually deals (we hope eventually) with her issues. 

Not to mention, both Adolin and Shallan are straight up murderers. Kaladin might not dispute either rationale for their murderers.. he hated Sadeus, and might recognize the self-defense..Ness.. of Shallan's patricide, but both are outside of what his oaths, thus far, would allow. Adolin has sworn no such oaths/ideals (yet), and Shallan speaks truths, not oaths. 

Kal has some book learning, yes, but doesn't have the easy jovial nature that Shallan and Adolin have (except, oddly, with Adolin.. but he brings that out in people). His attempts at humor with her are forced, at best.. and seem almost that he's trying too hard. Not to mention taking much of what she says in jest far too serious.. although I expect some of her "jokes" with Kal were less joke than she'd admit.. passive/aggressive pokes because she knows he killed her brother, yet knows he's really not at fault, but can't help but blame him some.

Uh... Did I leave anything out? Hmm...

 

Oh.. and also.. people here keep saying Shalladin, like Benifer or Bradjelina.. which immediately makes me hate any Kaladin Shallan pairing

 

Oh! Lyn! Admittedly, I dragged her name from way out of left field. She's a relatively unknown at this point, however, being a more duty/goal oriented sort, she's still more a match for Kal. Kal needs someone more grounded, so to speak, than Shallan.

In the end, though, I really do like the idea of Kaladin staying single. I recognize that probably won't happen, but I think it's more than ok to not have every protagonist matched up with a love interest.

 

Since this thread is the appropriate place to discuss this, I'll throw out a few of my thoughts on the subject here:

I feel like you and I have very different views of Kaladin as a character.  For example: the idea that Kaladin doesn't openly express concern for Shallan or try to make open moves to become closer to her in a romantic sense is true but is also missing a key aspect of the situation.  Kaladin knows and respects that Shallan is engaged to a friend of his.  Out of respect for both of them, he is not going to make any moves that could be interpreted as anything other than friendly.  He directly discusses this with Syl in Shadesmar.  So, yes he has to keep his distance because that's the kind of guy he is.  Syl eventually convinces him that he needs to take a shot at it anyway and he gives it a try, but screws it up because he doesn't know her well enough.  

A complaint I have about OB is that suddenly Shallan started viewing Kaladin as a "bad boy".  He's really not at all, and she never thought this way about him before in WoR.  In general, her feelings toward Kaladin felt very awkwardly written in OB.  That may have been intentional though, as an attempt to show that her mind is fractured and only certain aspects of her personality are interested in him.

I think you are right about one thing though: Kaladin and Shallan do tend to be pretty self absorbed.  I felt that in the WoR chasm scene, they were starting to break that down in each other, especially Shallan to Kaladin pointing out that he is not the only one who has faced terrible suffering.  So, in that respect I thought it would make sense if they did get together because both had tough lives and could call each other out on their BS and self absorbed natures - each pointing out to the other that they need to think beyond their own suffering.  That may still happen, but in the context of friendship.

I'm not one of those rabid shippers who just strongly promote one pairing over the other.  I would have liked to see a Shallan/Kaladin pairing, but I also think that in context of the story Shallan/Adolin makes more sense due to the fact that they were already engaged by the time Kaladin even met Shallan.  I just would have preferred the story leading up to it and the story getting out of it to be developed better.

As for who I think Kaladin needs to be with - I disagree that he needs to be with someone strongly duty oriented.  I think the opposite is true - he needs to be with someone who can reign in those overly duty-obsessive tendencies of his.  He needs someone who has a strong enough personality to reign in his character flaws.  Who that is - I'm not sure.

[Walkerxes]

2 hours ago, agrabes said:

 

Since this thread is the appropriate place to discuss this, I'll throw out a few of my thoughts on the subject here:

I feel like you and I have very different views of Kaladin as a character.  For example: the idea that Kaladin doesn't openly express concern for Shallan or try to make open moves to become closer to her in a romantic sense is true but is also missing a key aspect of the situation.  Kaladin knows and respects that Shallan is engaged to a friend of his.  Out of respect for both of them, he is not going to make any moves that could be interpreted as anything other than friendly.  He directly discusses this with Syl in Shadesmar.  So, yes he has to keep his distance because that's the kind of guy he is.  Syl eventually convinces him that he needs to take a shot at it anyway and he gives it a try, but screws it up because he doesn't know her well enough.  

A complaint I have about OB is that suddenly Shallan started viewing Kaladin as a "bad boy".  He's really not at all, and she never thought this way about him before in WoR.  In general, her feelings toward Kaladin felt very awkwardly written in OB.  That may have been intentional though, as an attempt to show that her mind is fractured and only certain aspects of her personality are interested in him.

I think you are right about one thing though: Kaladin and Shallan do tend to be pretty self absorbed.  I felt that in the WoR chasm scene, they were starting to break that down in each other, especially Shallan to Kaladin pointing out that he is not the only one who has faced terrible suffering.  So, in that respect I thought it would make sense if they did get together because both had tough lives and could call each other out on their BS and self absorbed natures - each pointing out to the other that they need to think beyond their own suffering.  That may still happen, but in the context of friendship.

I'm not one of those rabid shippers who just strongly promote one pairing over the other.  I would have liked to see a Shallan/Kaladin pairing, but I also think that in context of the story Shallan/Adolin makes more sense due to the fact that they were already engaged by the time Kaladin even met Shallan.  I just would have preferred the story leading up to it and the story getting out of it to be developed better.

As for who I think Kaladin needs to be with - I disagree that he needs to be with someone strongly duty oriented.  I think the opposite is true - he needs to be with someone who can reign in those overly duty-obsessive tendencies of his.  He needs someone who has a strong enough personality to reign in his character flaws.  Who that is - I'm not sure.

You make a fair point concerning Kaladin taking a step back out of respect for his friendship with Adolin, and oddly Adolin later attempts the same when he sees how Shallan/Veil looks at Kaladin.. I actually would have thought he'd have taken that more as a challenge, personally, than offering to step aside.

As for Kaladin needing someone strong-willed/personalitied(?), that also makes sense. Perhaps Jasna?  ...god that would be awful.. forget I said that..

@Athena I must have interpreted things a little different.. I saw his sort-of "treating Veil as a drinking buddy" as a type of acceptance of that persona.. a way to at least get to know it better. And heck, the fact he accepts the whole split personalities at all is rather impressive, considering how many view things like that...

Edited February 20, 2018 by Walkerxes

[Dreamstorm]

17 hours ago, Walkerxes said:

Not to mention, both Adolin and Shallan are straight up murderers. Kaladin might not dispute either rationale for their murderers.. he hated Sadeus, and might recognize the self-defense..Ness.. of Shallan's patricide, but both are outside of what his oaths, thus far, would allow. Adolin has sworn no such oaths/ideals (yet), and Shallan speaks truths, not oaths. 

The morality of Adolin's killing of Sadeas aside, I don't know if either of the four murders (one by Adolin and three by Shallan) would actually be outside of Kaladin's oaths.  Shallan was protecting herself in two out of the three (mother and Tyn), which is self-defense and not a violation of protecting others (Kaladin's oaths so far.)  There is a strong argument that Shallan's killing of her father was protecting others - her brothers and future servants/wives of Lin.  With Adolin, one of the main arguments for its morality is that Adolin had to do it to protect his father/men from future harm which could be caused by Sadeas.  Kaladin knows about Shallan's murder of her father, and actually thinks better of her for it, which argues it doesn't contradict his own sensibilities.  (Contra the way he reacts to Jasnah in OB and her thought process.)  That being said, "Shadolin works because they are both murderers" may be one of my favorite reasons for liking the pairing ever!

17 hours ago, Walkerxes said:

Oh.. and also.. people here keep saying Shalladin, like Benifer or Bradjelina.. which immediately makes me hate any Kaladin Shallan pairing

You do realize Shadolin is the opposing ship in this triangle, right? And the one you're currently shipping? 

4 hours ago, Walkerxes said:

But was he playing dress up, or acting the part of a lighteyes? His and Elhokar's mission was to secure the support of local lighteyed lords in the city, for which you have to look the part. Sure Shallan could have provided illusory clothing, but even in her own disguises she uses real elements in attire. Did he play a bit with fashion? Sure. But then Kaladin got to play soldier, Shallan got to play Robin Hood, Elhokar got to play...at whatever Elhokar likes to play at..

But Adolin didn't need to "play" the part of a lighteyes; he is one.  If anything, he was "playing" a slightly lower dahn lighteyes - General Kahl's son - so it would make more sense had he been in uniform or something more practical.  (Kahl, being a Kholin solder, I am assuming dressed in uniform due to the codes like all the rest of Dalinar's men.)  It remains to be seen whether Adolin's love of fashion is just an amusing quirk, or if there's something deeper regarding frivolity, outward appearance, or some other connection, but even stalwart Adolin fans have noted his obsession with fashion while in Kholinar (and Shadesmar) seems at odds with what was happening.  (Btw, Kaladin wasn't playing a soldier (he is one), but he was playing a lighteyes.)

2 hours ago, agrabes said:

the idea that Kaladin doesn't openly express concern for Shallan or try to make open moves to become closer to her in a romantic sense is true but is also missing a key aspect of the situation.  Kaladin knows and respects that Shallan is engaged to a friend of his.  Out of respect for both of them, he is not going to make any moves that could be interpreted as anything other than friendly.  He directly discusses this with Syl in Shadesmar.  So, yes he has to keep his distance because that's the kind of guy he is.  Syl eventually convinces him that he needs to take a shot at it anyway and he gives it a try, but screws it up because he doesn't know her well enough.  

This is one of the more frustrating aspects of the triangle for me; why introduce it at all and then not even allow it to be explored?  (I get for some people they liked that aspect though, because it was different than a typical romantic arc.)  It will always make Shadolin feel like a false choice to me though.  I don't feel like one discussion (which had maybe one line of mild flirtation?) is taking a chance though.  Kaladin never voices his feelings for Shallan to her.  Shallan does seem to take it for granted that she could have Kaladin if she wanted to, though I've mentioned before the fact I'm not convinced she's actually sure about his feelings.  At least I find it hard to think she would be sure given the fact he doesn't act on anything.

3 hours ago, agrabes said:

Kaladin and Shallan do tend to be pretty self absorbed.  I felt that in the WoR chasm scene, they were starting to break that down in each other, especially Shallan to Kaladin pointing out that he is not the only one who has faced terrible suffering.  So, in that respect I thought it would make sense if they did get together because both had tough lives and could call each other out on their BS and self absorbed natures - each pointing out to the other that they need to think beyond their own suffering.

It's been pointed out before that Kaladin and Shallan have opposing ways of dealing with their suffering, so in that respect they could help balance out each other's reactions.  (We actually see Shallan do this by telling Kaladin to snap out of his gloom in the chasms, as you mention.)  Kaladin though definitely drops the ball in this respect in OB.  Again it's potential that was teased... and then came to nothing.  

54 minutes ago, Walkerxes said:

You make a fair point concerning Kaladin taking a step back out of respect for his friendship with Adolin, and oddly Adolin later attempts the same when he sees how Shallan/Veil looks at Kaladin.. I actually would have thought he'd have taken that more as a challenge, personally, than offering to step aside.

Well... if you read just Adolin's viewpoints, there is a decided lack of emotion towards/thinking about Shallan, so maybe his taking a step back is more indicative of his feelings for her...  I agree that it's not the usual reaction to your fiance showing some interest in another man (if you indeed want to marry them.)  Fighting for your own relationship is definitely different than deciding not to insert yourself in an existing relationship.

56 minutes ago, Walkerxes said:

As for Kaladin needing someone strong-willed/personalitied(?), that also makes sense. Perhaps Jasna?  ...god that would be awful.. forget I said that..

This is by far the most popular human ship for Kaladin (Jasnadin), so plenty of people have gone way down this path before!  (I don't know where it ranks in terms of Syl/Kaladin (Syladin), another extremely popular ship.)

58 minutes ago, Walkerxes said:

I saw his sort-of "treating Veil as a drinking buddy" as a type of acceptance of that persona.. a way to at least get to know it better. And heck, the fact he accepts the whole split personalities at all is rather impressive, considering how many view things like that...

Considering we know from Brandon that Veil is just Shallan with a mask on (all of her masks are just this, including her prim Vorin princess one), this is actually Adolin treating Shallan herself as a drinking buddy.  Here's Brandon talking about Shallan's masks on reddit, if that's of interest to you.

[Walkerxes]

21 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

The morality of Adolin's killing of Sadeas aside, I don't know if either of the four murders (one by Adolin and three by Shallan) would actually be outside of Kaladin's oaths.  Shallan was protecting herself in two out of the three (mother and Tyn), which is self-defense and not a violation of protecting others (Kaladin's oaths so far.)  There is a strong argument that Shallan's killing of her father was protecting others - her brothers and future servants/wives of Lin.  With Adolin, one of the main arguments for its morality is that Adolin had to do it to protect his father/men from future harm which could be caused by Sadeas.  Kaladin knows about Shallan's murder of her father, and actually thinks better of her for it, which argues it doesn't contradict his own sensibilities.  (Contra the way he reacts to Jasnah in OB and her thought process.)  That being said, "Shadolin works because they are both murderers" may be one of my favorite reasons for liking the pairing ever!

You do realize Shadolin is the opposing ship in this triangle, right? And the one you're currently shipping? 

But Adolin didn't need to "play" the part of a lighteyes; he is one.  If anything, he was "playing" a slightly lower dahn lighteyes - General Kahl's son - so it would make more sense had he been in uniform or something more practical.  (Kahl, being a Kholin solder, I am assuming dressed in uniform due to the codes like all the rest of Dalinar's men.)  It remains to be seen whether Adolin's love of fashion is just an amusing quirk, or if there's something deeper regarding frivolity, outward appearance, or some other connection, but even stalwart Adolin fans have noted his obsession with fashion while in Kholinar (and Shadesmar) seems at odds with what was happening.  (Btw, Kaladin wasn't playing a soldier (he is one), but he was playing a lighteyes.)

This is one of the more frustrating aspects of the triangle for me; why introduce it at all and then not even allow it to be explored?  (I get for some people they liked that aspect though, because it was different than a typical romantic arc.)  It will always make Shadolin feel like a false choice to me though.  I don't feel like one discussion (which had maybe one line of mild flirtation?) is taking a chance though.  Kaladin never voices his feelings for Shallan to her.  Shallan does seem to take it for granted that she could have Kaladin if she wanted to, though I've mentioned before the fact I'm not convinced she's actually sure about his feelings.  At least I find it hard to think she would be sure given the fact he doesn't act on anything.

It's been pointed out before that Kaladin and Shallan have opposing ways of dealing with their suffering, so in that respect they could help balance out each other's reactions.  (We actually see Shallan do this by telling Kaladin to snap out of his gloom in the chasms, as you mention.)  Kaladin though definitely drops the ball in this respect in OB.  Again it's potential that was teased... and then came to nothing.  

Well... if you read just Adolin's viewpoints, there is a decided lack of emotion towards/thinking about Shallan, so maybe his taking a step back is more indicative of his feelings for her...  I agree that it's not the usual reaction to your fiance showing some interest in another man (if you indeed want to marry them.)  Fighting for your own relationship is definitely different than deciding not to insert yourself in an existing relationship.

This is by far the most popular human ship for Kaladin (Jasnadin), so plenty of people have gone way down this path before!  (I don't know where it ranks in terms of Syl/Kaladin (Syladin), another extremely popular ship.)

Considering we know from Brandon that Veil is just Shallan with a mask on (all of her masks are just this, including her prim Vorin princess one), this is actually Adolin treating Shallan herself as a drinking buddy.  Here's Brandon talking about Shallan's masks on reddit, if that's of interest to you.

Gotta say, once they hit Shadesmar, I thought Syladin was exactly where he was taking that. I'm not sure how I'd feel about it if he did. I believe they will have a love-type relationship, but not like a couple, more like a deep respect or friendship.. maybe even a sibling-esque love.

As for Adolin and Sadeas.. I can see your point, and hell, I certainly didn't have a problem with it.. I'm pretty sure I even gave a fist pump when he did it! Haha. And I do know Kaladin did see Sadeas as a threat, but at the same time he could potentially have fallen under the category of "protect those I hate". In the end, though, it was a fair-ish fight, not a stab in the back in the dark.

As for how they handle their own mental issues, neither has an exactly healthy way of doing so, so for one to rub off on the other would not necessarily be a good thing. Neither actually deals with it, they just each use different forms of band-aid to cover over the bloody stump of a severed limb.. so to speak. Not the best practice. 

I think what cemented ...Shadolin.. for me was how he tended to make just the right moves at the right time.. quietly being there when that's what she needed, moving close when she needed or pulling back when it was appropriate. Plus, I mean, the hair! Who could deny the hair! 

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Walkerxes said:

Neither actually deals with it, they just each use different forms of band-aid to cover over the bloody stump of a severed limb.. so to speak. Not the best practice. 

I think, that Kaladin has actually come quite a long way in dealing with his depression. Sure, he still has severe depressive episodes, but in general he does seem to have a more positive perspective on his life (I remember him saying something along the lines, that he was quite happy with his new life). And even in his depressive episode after Kholinar and he gets those cynic, dark thoughts about how idiotic Adolin seems to be and what not, he chastises himself for that. He doesn't completely lose himself in his depression anymore. Maybe some of it is because of his drive to protect/be there for others, but I don't see that as a band-aid, but purpose in life. A direction. Something, that in the long-term definitely helps depressive persons, who like Kaladin started in a position only full of despair.

Shallan's masks? Definitely a band-aid solution. I don't see her getting better in anyway at the moment and the downward spiral seems to be continuing. Sure, she decided to not make any more masks, but is that really a victory? I don't think so. The masks allow her to ignore her core problem. She hates herself, and tries to anchor herself to Adolin, so that she doesn't leave herself behind, but that doesn't solve the core problem. She needs to learn to love herself as a whole again. And not just parts of herself.

35 minutes ago, Walkerxes said:

I think what cemented ...Shadolin.. for me was how he tended to make just the right moves at the right time.. quietly being there when that's what she needed, moving close when she needed or pulling back when it was appropriate.

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

Kaladin though definitely drops the ball in this respect in OB.  Again it's potential that was teased... and then came to nothing.  

I see it a bit differently. Yes, Adolin does the right things and Kaladin does the wrong things. From Shallan's perspective. What Adolin does confirms, what she wants to have confirmed. That Veil and Radiant are different entities from her. Kaladin... doesn't dífferentiate between Veil and Radiant. He doesn't notice changes, because he doesn't have expectations on how Shallan should behave. Of course, Adolin would recognize changes in Shallan's behavior, because she has been living wearing a mask for him since they first met. Kaladin knows more of her other aspects (Veil in particular), by how she acted in the chasms, so he doesn't pick up on her masking.

That said, while Shallan might see Adolin as right and Kaladin as wrong in that aspect. I don't think, that her judgment is the best for that.

I think, that Adolin is saying the right things and doing the wrong things, by keeping Veil, Radiant and Shallan as different persons and has different relationships with them, because it doesn't reflect reality. They are all Shallan, just not in her head. Kaladin is saying the wrong things and is doing the right things, by seeing Shallan as Shallan. Because that is what reflects reality.

On the surface, I get you, Walkerxes. I think, that there is a lot more below it though. 

[agrabes]

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

This is one of the more frustrating aspects of the triangle for me; why introduce it at all and then not even allow it to be explored?  (I get for some people they liked that aspect though, because it was different than a typical romantic arc.)  It will always make Shadolin feel like a false choice to me though.  I don't feel like one discussion (which had maybe one line of mild flirtation?) is taking a chance though.  Kaladin never voices his feelings for Shallan to her.  Shallan does seem to take it for granted that she could have Kaladin if she wanted to, though I've mentioned before the fact I'm not convinced she's actually sure about his feelings.  At least I find it hard to think she would be sure given the fact he doesn't act on anything.

It's been pointed out before that Kaladin and Shallan have opposing ways of dealing with their suffering, so in that respect they could help balance out each other's reactions.  (We actually see Shallan do this by telling Kaladin to snap out of his gloom in the chasms, as you mention.)  Kaladin though definitely drops the ball in this respect in OB.  Again it's potential that was teased... and then came to nothing.  

I agree wholeheartedly that I wish there had been some kind of scene where Kaladin and Shallan had at least -partially- expressed their feelings for each other.  I understand why it didn't happen and the situation with Shallan and Adolin being engaged already at the outset makes it hard for someone with Kaladin's personality to ever try anything (i.e. valuing loyalty very highly, both his own loyalty to Adolin as a friend and the loyalty between Shallan and Adolin).  Heck, Adolin knows more about Shallan's feelings for Kaladin than Kaladin does and no one other than Syl knows Kaladin's feelings.

I never really thought about what Shallan thought about Kaladin's feelings, but it's a really interesting idea.  I think you are right - Shallan would not know that Kaladin was interested in her at all.  During their interactions, Kaladin was always careful to not cross the line beyond very minor, mild flirtation that might not even be considered flirtation depending who is looking at it.  That also changes my perception of Shallan's reactions a little bit.  I still think the main thing driving her is that she believes she needs to honor her commitment to Adolin, Jasnah, and house Kholin, but it piles on another layer of why she would be even less likely to try anything with Kaladin - she just couldn't be sure how he would respond.

My ideal situation at this point is that Sanderson retcons the "instead, he felt agreement?" line (which felt to me like the Deus ex Machina voice saying the triangle is done so forget about it) like he did Szeth's death and Kaladin actually does feel sad and a little awkward about Shadolin and he starts avoiding seeing the two of them together to the point where Shallan notices and takes him aside and they talk and bring some closure to the arc.  I'd settle for any scene where at least one of them knows and understands the other's feelings for them.  Unfortunately, I think this just isn't that kind of book and it's not really Sanderson's style.  I've lurked in this thread since the beginning, so I know there are a lot of people here who think there is good evidence that Adolin and Shallan may split up, or Adolin may die, etc and Shallan and Kaladin may get together in the future.  I think it's definitely possible, but I don't want to start expecting that because if it doesn't happen and I start to expect it I will be pretty annoyed.

 

SLNC Re: Dropping the Ball - I totally get where you are coming from and generally agree with your analysis, but I also think you have to say that it is still dropping the ball.  Even if Kaladin's view of the situation and general attitude have been more "correct" in terms of what is best for Shallan especially in terms of what he knew at the time, he still dropped the ball because his approach was exactly the worst thing he could have said to her at the time.  He didn't know it, but if he wanted to be able to advance his relationship with her he had to have known or should have put more weight behind her distress about shoving things to the back of her mind and asked questions about why she thought that was such a bad thing.  It's not fair at all, but it's just the way relationships work.

Edited February 20, 2018 by agrabes

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, agrabes said:

SLNC Re: Dropping the Ball - I totally get where you are coming from and generally agree with your analysis, but I also think you have to say that it is still dropping the ball.  Even if Kaladin's view of the situation and general attitude have been more "correct" in terms of what is best for Shallan especially in terms of what he knew at the time, he still dropped the ball because his approach was exactly the worst thing he could have said to her at the time.  He didn't know it, but if he wanted to be able to advance his relationship with her he had to have known or should have put more weight behind her distress about shoving things to the back of her mind and asked questions about why she thought that was such a bad thing.  It's not fair at all, but it's just the way relationships work.

Oh absolutely. He was a complete dork in that situation.

I was just looking at the quality of Shallan's choice and the possible ramifications for her in the future.

Edited February 20, 2018 by SLNC

[Walkerxes]

7 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I think, that Kaladin has actually come quite a long way in dealing with his depression. Sure, he still has severe depressive episodes, but in general he does seem to have a more positive perspective on his life (I remember him saying something along the lines, that he was quite happy with his new life). And even in his depressive episode after Kholinar and he gets those cynic, dark thoughts about how idiotic Adolin seems to be and what not, he chastises himself for that. He doesn't completely lose himself in his depression anymore. Maybe some of it is because of his drive to protect/be there for others, but I don't see that as a band-aid, but purpose in life. A direction. Something, that in the long-term definitely helps depressive persons, who like Kaladin started in a position only full of despair.

Shallan's masks? Definitely a band-aid solution. I don't see her getting better in anyway at the moment and the downward spiral seems to be continuing. Sure, she decided to not make any more masks, but is that really a victory? I don't think so. The masks allow her to ignore her core problem. She hates herself, and tries to anchor herself to Adolin, so that she doesn't leave herself behind, but that doesn't solve the core problem. She needs to learn to love herself as a whole again. And not just parts of herself.

I see it a bit differently. Yes, Adolin does the right things and Kaladin does the wrong things. From Shallan's perspective. What Adolin does confirms, what she wants to have confirmed. That Veil and Radiant are different entities from her. Kaladin... doesn't dífferentiate between Veil and Radiant. He doesn't notice changes, because he doesn't have expectations on how Shallan should behave. Of course, Adolin would recognize changes in Shallan's behavior, because she has been living wearing a mask for him since they first met. Kaladin knows more of her other aspects (Veil in particular), by how she acted in the chasms, so he doesn't pick up on her masking.

That said, while Shallan might see Adolin as right and Kaladin as wrong in that aspect. I don't think, that her judgment is the best for that.

I think, that Adolin is saying the right things and doing the wrong things, by keeping Veil, Radiant and Shallan as different persons and has different relationships with them, because it doesn't reflect reality. They are all Shallan, just not in her head. Kaladin is saying the wrong things and is doing the right things, by seeing Shallan as Shallan. Because that is what reflects reality.

On the surface, I get you, Walkerxes. I think, that there is a lot more below it though. 

Actually.. very well said and expressed! You're right, in fact, Kaladin has made significant improvement, even not letting the weeping get him down, which is usually a time when he's at his lowest. I do feel, though, that many of his improvement has been because generally things have been going his way.. parents alive, new sibling, bridge 4 radiance so they're less in danger.. but, he did also handle failing Elhokar much better than I'd have credited.. even then, though, it was Adolin who kept his eye on Kaladin and tried to keep him focussed and not dwelling on Elhokar. Maybe what we're really missing is.. Kalodin.. the bromance 

As for Kaladin and Shallan's masks.. I don't think he's had the exposure (nor explanation) to Veil and Radiant that Adolin has. To Kaladin that's just Shallan being odd, but he hasn't really experienced a recognizable personality flip like Adolin did. He caught glimpses of Veil before Shallan entered the palace, but at the time she was wearing Lyn's face, and it was probably taken as Shallan being "in character".. but at the end when she was flip-flopping between the 3 after Jasna brought here back behind the walls, Kaladin wasn't there to witness it, where Adolin was... on a side note, Kate Reading, who narrates the female-focussed chapters in the audiobook did a great job differentiating vocally between Shallan, Veil and Radiant, especially in that part.