[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

Shallan's character shines when she's pushed and reality comes crushing on top of her. She killed her father when the things got really bad, when Lin started hurting her step-mother, threatening to hurt others for her disobedience and when he brought Balat's romance to a head by calling Eylita to the mansion.  She was happy to play along as the perfect Vorin daughter until she was pushed too far.  She killed Tyn when she was attacked by using her shardblade, which she had seriously considered using only once before, in the alley with Jasnah. She knew Tyn could be dangerous but she extended her charade for her because she was comfortable around her and was fascinated by her swave behavior. One of Shallan's greatest moments is when she recruits the deserters, but she only does it at the last moment when there's no other options, otherwise she was content to sketch and look worryingly over her shoulder. She only acts like her true self, according to that tWoK annotation, when she's refused. I'm talking about this:

Quote

Shallan berates the book merchant

The timid nature is a result of the problems in her past (see book two’s flashbacks). I see the moments of flaring passion as being far more “her.”

Shallan’s father has an infamous temper; it’s buried deep within her as well. If she’d been allowed to grow up more naturally, without the oppressive darkness that her family suffered, she would have turned out as a very different person. Still, the person she could become is buried inside her. In my mind, this is one of the big connections between her as a character and Kaladin. It is also part of why both attract a certain type of spren…

That's just after Jasnah refused to take her as a ward. She took action and formulated a bold plan to change Jasnah's mind.

What I'm trying to say is that Shallan shines, for good or ill, when she's pushed and taken out of her comfort zone. Actually "shines" is the wrong term. I'll go with takes decisive action.

But here's the thing. Adolin treats her masks as separate people and panders to them and prefers the one she puts on as being the perfect one according to his expectations.That's not helpful for her mental state and it isn't what she needs in order to be an interesting character to read.  She's the kind of person that needs to be spurred and stimulated into being her best self, which is her whole self. When things are at the worst for her, she tries her hardest and becomes closer with her true self.

One of Kaladin's best qualities isn't just that he's a good soldier or a good protector but that he also actively pushes others around him to be better.  He is a leader. Think how Rock or Teft were in the beginning of tWoK and when or why they started helping Kaladin. He, also, sets an example for others to follow. Sometimes he doesn't even want to set an example but especially at those times people choose to follow him (think the whole armoured bridgemen in Parshendi carapace). He pushes people around him to rise and even lifts them when they're unwilling. He dragged Bridge 4 out of their desperate stupor by providing them camaraderie. Soups, reassuring smiles when he felt they needed them, a sympathetic ear to tell their stories. He listened and got to know them, while dealing with his own issues and guilt. 

Also I'm going to put this here:

Quote

Shallan became the perfect daughter.

She kept quiet, particularly in Father’s presence. She spent most days in her room, sitting by the window, reading the same books over and over or sketching the same objects again and again. He had proven several times by this point that he would not touch her if she angered him.

Instead, he would beat others in her name.

The only times she allowed herself to drop the mask was when she was with her brothers, times when her father couldn’t hear. Her three brothers often cajoled her—with an edge of desperation—to tell them stories from her books. For their hearing only, she made jokes, poked fun at Father’s visitors, and invented extravagant tales by the hearth.~ WoR Chapter 61

---

Shallan was supposed to get this man to court her? Storms! She’d felt far more capable when trying to scam the leader of the Ghostbloods. Act refined, Shallan told herself. Adolin has moved with the elite, and has been in relationships with the most sophisticated ladies of the world. He will expect that from you.~WoR Chapter 49

That shows me these three things:

• Shallan is no stranger to putting on masks to please others. She didn't start doing it when she became able to lightweave. It just helped.
• Also isn't it strange that she puts up the same mask with Adolin as she did for her father. Although they are VERY different people, Shallan wants to be what she thinks they both want her to be. The perfect Vorin daughter or wife.
• She's comfortable enough with Kaladin to drop the mask and reveal her self. The confession in the chasms that she killed her father was her revealing painful parts of herself to him. She feels comfortable with him as she does with a member of her family. Much more comfortable than she does with Adolin or Jasnah or Dalinar or Navani that are members of her actual family now. And I get it that this could be interpreted that Brandon is setting a siblings relationship between them, and that could fit with the whole "She reminds me of Tien" thing. But frankly that's weak. By the same logic every potential romantic interest should be dismissed if they vaguely remind you of a sibling. Is your crush funny like your sibling? Tough luck buddy, you can't love them romantically. Oh, you're as comfortable around this person as if they were your family or as if you've known them for a long time? Tough break. 

[Alderant she/her]

5 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

She's comfortable enough with Kaladin to drop the mask and reveal her self. The confession in the chasms that she killed her father was her revealing painful parts of herself to him. She feels comfortable with him as she does with a member of her family. Much more comfortable than she does with Adolin or Jasnah or Dalinar or Navani that are members of her actual family now. And I get it that this could be interpreted that Brandon is setting a siblings relationship between them, and that could fit with the whole "She reminds me of Tien" thing. But frankly that's weak. By the same logic every potential romantic interest should be dismissed if they vaguely remind you of a sibling. Is your crush funny like your sibling? Tough luck buddy, you can't love them romantically. Oh, you're as comfortable around this person as if they were your family or as if you've known them for a long time? Tough break. 

Nice post, well put and focused. But you left out one--by this same logic, Dalinar and Navani should never have been romantic in WoK and WoR.

I will make one small correction though, that has to do with her character: she's not exactly comfortable with Kaladin--that implies a certain familiarity that I think is absent. In fact, she's downright judgemental of him--far more so than of Adolin and coming closer to her verbal assault on one of the brightladies in Oathbringer, but she is far more herself around him, which is, I think, the same point you were trying to make. But that might be semantics.

Personally, I've always found the "She reminds me of Tien" argument to be the among the weakest of the challenging arguments for saying that Kaladin isn't interested in Shallan. I don't know about many others, but I was always a very reserved, very private person, emotionally. I could go at length into how the dialogue conveys that Kaladin is very much into Shallan, just repressing those feelings for the sake of maintaining the peace. But that was something I did a lot in high school, so maybe that's why I read it that way.

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

1 minute ago, Alderant said:

Nice post, well put and focused. But you left out one--by this same logic, Dalinar and Navani should never have been romantic in WoK and WoR.

Well, I'm sure that the ardentia would agree.

3 minutes ago, Alderant said:

she's not exactly comfortable with Kaladin

Yeah, maybe comfortable may not be the correct word but it wasn't exactly a general comment on their interactions. I was referring specifically to the chasm scene in the cubby hole where they shared stories to comfort each other while the highstorm was raging outsibe. Shallan's says she need to hear something else other than the thunder and he tells her his story. She then proceeds without prompting to tell him her story.

6 minutes ago, Alderant said:

but she is far more herself around him, which is, I think, the same point you were trying to make

But yeah, in general I agree with this.

7 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I don't know about many others, but I was always a very reserved, very private person, emotionally. I could go at length into how the dialogue conveys that Kaladin is very much into Shallan, just repressing those feelings for the sake of maintaining the peace. But that was something I did a lot in high school, so maybe that's why I read it that way.

I assume you've read @DeployParachute's post about it? I linked it in the previous page but here is it again, in case you missed it:

 

[lu-tze]

48 minutes ago, Alderant said:

 

As you said, Brandon loves to foreshadow. Why would he drop all of these subtle similarities and hints between Kal and Shallan, if her marriage to Adolin is the be-all end-all?

 

 

Having made my way to the end of this thread, I have only one tiny, tangential point to make regarding Shallan; and it has to do with foreshadowing.

 

Shallan, whose character-definining drama is squarely family-oriented, and whose primary motivation throughout all of TWoK was to save her family (though perhaps a lie and sought instead to escape them?), has all of her remaining family show up minutes before her wedding. I take this as a foreshadowing that Shallan will feel pressure to inhabit a persona for the sake of her family -- which Adolin, Jasnah, and Dalonar are now a part; and are all people to whom she feels an obligation: husband, mentor, and leader of the KR. As if family ties weren't enough... (This is all redundant with what has been said before; but I don't think the foreshadowing angle has been considered, but i may be wrong).

 

Actually I have a second tiny point: I can't help but draw parallels between the scene(s) with Hoid (where Shallan seems to mend a bit), and her scene with Adolin. If Adolin starts to fill in as a touchstone or 'grounding' for Shallan, rescuing her whenever her personality shatters (with increasing frequency), then one of the truths she may need to confront is that she uses him as a crutch.

 

Shallan is a minefield. I feel bad for Adolin -- but he may earn his radiance when she breaks him.

 

Syl is the only girl for Kaladin.

[Subvisual Haze]

The main underlying problem is that Shallan is incredibly emotionally unstable and just getting worse.  She's split her own personality into 2 distinct personas: "Shallan" and "Veil" (I view Radiant as more of a temporary mask to preform a specific function than a full personality).  "Shallan" is the proper, respectable, demure, and formally dressed one who contains all the characteristics that Shallan thinks Adolin desires in her (and society/her Father have told her to be).  On some level she does wish to be "Shallan", but that's not her true and whole personality.  "Veil" is the flirty, adventurous, backtalking side of her with a quick temper and blistering wit that loves being tsundere with Kaladin.  

Adolin is wrong at the end when he says "Shallan" is the true personality.  It's not his fault though, as Shallan clearly wants him to believe "Shallan" is the true her, and Shallan herself wishes it was true.  It's not true though.  She's both "Shallan" and "Veil".  The fact she can't stop "Veil" from leaking through isn't surprising, since "Veil" isn't just some temporary role or mask, it's a fundamental part of her personality, just one she wants to deny so she can play at being pretty perfect lighteyes lady for Adolin.

"Shallan" without "Veil" is kind of boring and demure, but it's who Shallan's father wanted her to be, and who Shallan thinks Adolin wants her to be.  "Veil" without "Shallan" is rather foolish and also kind of a jerk when interacting with Kaladin (all of the snark, with none of the kindness to balance it out).  She'll never take control of her personas in this current state, like Wit suggested, until she accepts both "Shallan" and "Veil" are the real her.

Oddly though, Adolin liked the pre-Oathbringer integrated Shallan just fine.  Her current "Shallan" persona never would have played "hard to get" to keep Adolin's attention, or made jokes about bodily functions inside shardplate.

Ultimately it all comes down to Shallan.  She's lying to herself and Adolin about who she really is.  Also there's no reciprocal trust.  Adolin confided in her his darkest secret (killing Sadeas), but Shallan continues to resist sharing...anything with him, out of fear it will make her appear less desirable to him.  Shallan wants Adolin to love her, but presents a lie out of fear of losing him, Adolin wants to love Shallan but doesn't understand her on a fundamental level because she won't let him.  I think they will eventually work it out, just because Adolin, like his mother, is such a nice and caring person.  They won't have anything like a stable relationship though, until Shallan gets herself in a better mental place.

Kaladin's ship seems to have sailed.  He might previously had made a good match for Shallan, but he's accepted that she chose Adolin.  To a large degree he just isn't extremely interested in romance at the moment.  He might be a good friend and emotional confidant for Shallan, but I can't see Brandon Sanderson having his protagonists carry out an adulterous relationship no matter how "well matched" they were.

[lu-tze]

(Crempost)

> Too much family pressure

> Adolin breaking

> Jasnah chastizing

> Dalonar frowning

> Pattern humming

> Breaks oath

> Kicked out of KoR

> Runs away

> Surrounded by Fused

> Bond with pattern fails

> Deep doo doo

> Rescued by very familiar flying bridgeman with a spear

 

Shallan + Moash ?

Edited February 5, 2018 by ale

[Alderant she/her]

25 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

I assume you've read @DeployParachute's post about it? I linked it in the previous page but here is it again, in case you missed it:

I had not read it before but I have read it now, lol. (I skipped the first 82 pages of the discussion, just read the summary.) That's a good one. Thanks for that.

@DeployParachute, you get a cookie. I like how well-thought out your replies are.

Spoiler

 

24 minutes ago, ale said:

Shallan, whose character-definining drama is squarely family-oriented, and whose primary motivation throughout all of TWoK was to save her family (though perhaps a lie and sought instead to escape them?), has all of her remaining family show up minutes before her wedding. I take this as a foreshadowing that Shallan will feel pressure to inhabit a persona for the sake of her family -- which Adolin, Jasnah, and Dalonar are now a part; and are all people to whom she feels an obligation: husband, mentor, and leader of the KR. As if family ties weren't enough... (This is all redundant with what has been said before; but I don't think the foreshadowing angle has been considered, but i may be wrong).

 

Actually I have a second tiny point: I can't help but draw parallels between the scene(s) with Hoid (where Shallan seems to mend a bit), and her scene with Adolin. If Adolin starts to fill in as a touchstone or 'grounding' for Shallan, rescuing her whenever her personality shatters (with increasing frequency), then one of the truths she may need to confront is that she uses him as a crutch.

Shallan's character drama is less about family than it is about herself.

Considering that you said you "made your way to the end of this thread," I'm assuming you read my exceptionally long rant on Page 89? If not, I'll quote a small part of it here:

Quote

This is why the collapse of Veil near the end of OB was such a drastic situation for Shallan--up until this point, she'd been using Veil more and more to be herself, as "Shallan" had to be someone else. And yet, because of her very proficient mental gymnastics, Veil was still a different identity so she didn't have to hurt, as Shallan did. Therefore, when Veil failed in Kholinar to save anyone (despite her best efforts), Shallan became lost. Veil had actually become the grounding persona, the one closest to Shallan herself, and now, suddenly Veil hurt. She couldn't be Veil anymore--to do so would be to face that pain. But she because of this she was lost. She didn't know who she was anymore, and she couldn't pick to ground herself because she'd been shying away from who she was for so long. Thus, when Adolin squeezed her hand and she stopped at "Shallan", she immediately jumped on it and said "He knows who I am!" Because, at that moment, she could not function without an outside source to tell her who she was.

 

24 minutes ago, ale said:

but he may earn his radiance when she breaks him.

I doubt this will happen, for reasons I've explained below and elsewhere.

18 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

"Shallan" without "Veil" is kind of boring and demure, but it's who Shallan's father wanted her to be, and who Shallan thinks Adolin wants her to be.  "Veil" without "Shallan" is rather foolish and also kind of a jerk when interacting with Kaladin (all of the snark, with none of the kindness to balance it out).  She'll never take control of her personas in this current state, like Wit suggested, until she accepts both "Shallan" and "Veil" are the real her.

Ah see, I liked your post up until here. We didn't really see Veil interact with Kaladin, but we know from ample text that the Veil persona held her attraction to Kaladin. We do, however, see the "Shallan" persona acting with quite a lot of snark and no kindness on several occasions.

18 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Ultimately it all comes down to Shallan.  She's lying to herself and Adolin about who she really is.  Also there's no reciprocal trust.  Adolin confided in her his darkest secret (killing Sadeas), but Shallan continues to resist sharing...anything with him, out of fear it will make her appear less desirable to him.  Shallan wants Adolin to love her, but presents a lie out of fear of losing him, Adolin wants to love Shallan but doesn't understand her on a fundamental level because she won't let him.  I think they will eventually work it out, just because Adolin, like his mother, is such a nice and caring person.  They won't have anything like a stable relationship though, until Shallan gets herself in a better mental place.

Kaladin's ship seems to have sailed.  He might previously had made a good match for Shallan, but he's accepted that she chose Adolin.  To a large degree he just isn't extremely interested in romance at the moment.  He might be a good friend and emotional confidant for Shallan, but I can't see Brandon Sanderson having his protagonists carry out an adulterous relationship no matter how "well matched" they were.

Hope you don't mind, but I bolded the part that I thought was significant. A relationship built without trust is like a house built without a foundation. No matter how nice Adolin is, no matter how much he likes her, if Shallan isn't going to trust him the relationship is ultimately doomed to fail, and unless Shallan has some major self-awareness revelations in the time gap (which would undermine her character arc), I don't think anything is going to be "worked out" by the next book.

As to your second paragraph...I agree and disagree. I don't think the ship has sailed. He's accepted it in his head, but I don't think he's really accepted it in his heart. He just received too many knockdowns in OB to feel that his interest was justified. And I would disagree that he isn't extremely interested in romance--I think he's just too self-deprecating to feel he deserves it. His final thoughts are kind of a dark reflection of Shallan's final thoughts in the mirror.

Honestly, I think your last sentence is accurate though. I would be shocked to see adultery in the main characters from Brandon. Personally, I think Adolin is set up for a fall--regardless of the potential for Kaladin and Shallan in the future. (My thoughts on Shalladin have nothing to do with my thoughts regarding Adolin.) @DeployParachute has a great post that spells this out, if you haven't read it. @SLNC posted it as a reply to mine on 89.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Alderant

[GarrethGrey]

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

I heard something interesting the other day with regards to this triangle that I didn't understand. People like to tout on here that Adolin is just this perfect guy for Shallan, that he just gets her and he understands her and that he can help her, and that Kaladin is so bad for her and is encouraging her bad habits and fracturing mental state. Based on what I've read in Oathbringer (and to a lesser extent, Words of Radiance), how is that conclusion being drawn? Because what I read in Oathbringer was Adolin actually furthering the problems of Shallan's mental state, not helping them. Kaladin aside, who I think was largely unavailable emotionally to be able to help Shallan, how is Adolin's behavior to Shallan actually beneficial to her mental state, when he is actually encouraging the problem, as Kaladin has been accused of doing?

  Reveal hidden contents

I'm not saying that I think she should have ended up together with Kaladin in this book. I don't think that would have been a good idea and with the massive amount of material covered in Oathbringer, I think minimizing the importance of the triangle in the book was actually a good idea, and I'm happy that the triangle wasn't heavily pursued. I like the angle the book went, but I would have been more satisfied with its resolution if I had actually seen some actual romance between Adolin and Shallan. If this is the angle that their relationship is going to continue ad infinitum, I really hope their relationship blossoms in the timeskip between 3 & 4.

 

In regards to this, I can't really speak for anyone else, and I'm coming from the opposite side, because I too, just don't agree with this idea that Adolin is great for her and Kaladin is bad. If I were to venture a guess however, I would say a large majority of people are taking Shallan and Adolins romance at face value. When taken at face value, I can see how people find Adolin good for her, Shallan says herself, "he knows me", and "nevermind if he actually encourages you to be yourself" (subtle dig a Kaladin) so if you believe her, then yeah, I suppose it makes sense. This entire thread however, is full of people who don't buy what Shallan is selling when she says things like this, because it just doesnt makes sense based on what we've seen from Shallan x Adolin and Shallan x Kaladin. If someone is pleased with the romantic ending in OB, I can understand why they would disregard many things brought up in this thread, or even avoid it altogether, not even bother trying to look any deeper, why would they? They're happy with the romance, they like Adolin, he "won". (Not sure if this is actually the case, and even if it is, I'm sure many people have different reasons as to why they feel that way. But if I was on the other side of this debate, thats probably what I would be doing.)

1 hour ago, ale said:

There's plenty of room on the Jasnadin ship. From Kal's "how-does-she-deal-with-the-pain" perspective Jasnah's got similar grief as Shallan (Shallan herself notices this in TWoK), but deals with it with more grace. She also operates on the philosophical level, and can give a sound verbal thrashing when necessary. Also, I suspect Syl won't like Jasnah (or Ivory) very much -- at first. Can't wait.

I'll be honest, if Shalladin isn't happening, I'm 100% on board with Kaladin and Jasnah, I think they would actually make a very interesting pair, and be very entertaining to read. I don't buy the whole "theres just too big of an age gap" "Jasnah doesnt need a romance", those just don't hold any water for me. They had one significant interaction in OB and I found it highly entertaining. Theres definitely more there to be explored between these two if Brandon wants to do that. (Plus, it would be mildy satisfying and hilarious for Kaladin and Jasnah to get together, and then get to see Shallans reaction.)

@DimChatz everything you brought up is spot on, and I just hope Brandon realizes he's writing things this way, and its all actually going somewhere. Because my biggest fear is that its all just there, it doesn't actually matter, and we've picked apart the text too much.

58 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

But frankly that's weak. By the same logic every potential romantic interest should be dismissed if they vaguely remind you of a sibling. Is your crush funny like your sibling? Tough luck buddy, you can't love them romantically. Oh, you're as comfortable around this person as if they were your family or as if you've known them for a long time? Tough break. 

This. It drives me nuts when people use this as a reason for a lack of romantic feelings. Tien was the most important person in Kaladins life, he loved him more than anything. You'd think that him comparing a woman to Tien would speak volumes about how much said woman actually means to him. 

19 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Kaladin's ship seems to have sailed.  He might previously had made a good match for Shallan, but he's accepted that she chose Adolin.  To a large degree he just isn't extremely interested in romance at the moment.  He might be a good friend and emotional confidant for Shallan, but I can't see Brandon Sanderson having his protagonists carry out an adulterous relationship no matter how "well matched" they were.

I agree with almost everything you're saying except this last part. Saying he accepted that Shallan chose Adolin assumes we're taking what he said at the end of OB at face value, I'm not sure that we should. And he might not have been interested in romance in the WOK (he was a slave) or WOR (he was just plopped into a position of power after being a slave, and was just discovering his powers). In OB, he starts to show that he's interested in romance, atleast when it comes to Shallan. And again, with the whole "adultery" thing, nobody expects Shallan and Kaladin to run around behind Adolins back. If anything happens between these two, its because either Adolin died, or they got a divorce.

Edited February 5, 2018 by GarrethGrey
Typo

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Alderant said:

@DeployParachute has a great post that spells this out, if you haven't read it. @SLNC posted it as a reply to mine on 89

No harm in posting it again, I guess.

On 4.12.2017 at 10:11 PM, DeployParachute said:

See, this was part of my problem with realizing that Adolin was going to have little to no character arc or narrative during OB. Let's break down where this character stands now after the flop that I believe the handling of his narrative has been.

1. He has no remaining internal conflicts to address or resolve, no (meaningful) flaws to explore or confront. 

2. He had no external conflicts with other characters too explore or confront. The Sadeas plot had gone nowhere, he doesn't have to be king, he isn't competing for Shallan's affection anymore.

So, if Adolin does not have any more personal character arcs or growth to achieve (and no, sorry, I do not see "figure out how to revive my dead shardblade" as very important to the greater narrative), what purpose is he going to serve within the future books. Glad you asked ( though I know you didn't):

1. Adolin has now been painted as the stabilizing force for Shallan's personality issues. He is someone who is heavily depended on by her moving forward. If he were absent, Shallan likely would be forced to do something about her condition sooner.

2. Clearly, Kaladin and Adolin have grown closer as companions. I'm not going to call them best buds yet, but out of all the characters in the narrative outside of bridge four, Adolin is right up there with Dalinar with regards to respect and a sense of dependability that Kaladin has.

3. Everyone in the narrative (other than clearly defined antagonist elements) likes Adolin, and don't have any serious problems with him. He is a very strong and prominent figure in what remains of Alethi society

4. He is the only Kholin to not have any measure of Radiancy

Looking at all of these things from a plotting or narrative perspective, I think readers who hope for a happy ending path forward for this character should be very worried about his future. He has been seemingly set up to be a ripe tragic plot device just waiting to be picked at the right time by the author. He can be lifted right out, while providing the narrative with several interesting avenues to explore, both from a plot perspective, and a character growth/regression perspective from the rest of the mains. Either Brandon doesn't see what problems exist for this characters narrative, or his plan for Adolin doesn't necessitate the kind of growth and challenges that other viewpoint characters have to experience, because his service to the plot is more...tragic.

This is part of the reason I was a little distraught over his end state at OB, because without something for him to actively do (especially with regards to himself), it certainly seems a good probability that his days are numbered.

 

[Alderant she/her]

2 minutes ago, GarrethGrey said:

1 hour ago, ale said:

There's plenty of room on the Jasnadin ship. From Kal's "how-does-she-deal-with-the-pain" perspective Jasnah's got similar grief as Shallan (Shallan herself notices this in TWoK), but deals with it with more grace. She also operates on the philosophical level, and can give a sound verbal thrashing when necessary. Also, I suspect Syl won't like Jasnah (or Ivory) very much -- at first. Can't wait.

I'll be honest, if Shalladin isn't happening, I'm 100% on board with Kaladin and Jasnah, I think they would actually make a very interesting pair, and be very entertaining to read. I don't buy the whole "theres just too big of an age gap" "Jasnah doesnt need a romance", those just don't hold any water for me. They had one significant interaction in OB and I found it highly entertaining. Theres definitely more there to be explored between these two if Brandon wants to do that. (Plus, it would be mildy satisfying and hilarious for Kaladin and Jasnah to get together, and then get to see Shallans reaction.)

I don't know how I missed @ale's post here, but this is something I've been on for a while. I think, considering Jasnah's wit and Kal's maturity, that would be a very interesting pairing. I...actually shipped them over Kaladin and Shallan, after discovering Jasnah was alive at the end of WoR, tbh. My interest in Shalladin was purely because I feel that Kaladin is better for her than Adolin.

5 minutes ago, GarrethGrey said:

When taken at face value, I can see how people find Adolin good for her, Shallan says herself, "he knows me", and "nevermind if he actually encourages you to be yourself" (subtle dig a Kaladin) so if you believe her, then yeah, I suppose it makes sense.

I guess I just am incapable at taking Shallan at face-value. Maybe that's because I'm too much in her head or something. :/

6 minutes ago, GarrethGrey said:

@DimChatz everything you brought up is spot on, and I just hope Brandon realizes he's writing things this way, and its all actually going somewhere. Because my biggest fear is that its all just there, it doesn't actually matter, and we've picked apart the text too much.

I secretly think it's written to be intentionally dissatisfying...

Just now, SLNC said:

No harm in posting it again, I guess.

 

Thanks!

[lu-tze]

23 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Shallan's character drama is less about family than it is about herself.

Considering that you said you "made your way to the end of this thread," I'm assuming you read my exceptionally long rant on Page 89? If not, I'll quote a small part of it here:

It’s how she defines herself. One of the subtexts of TWoK/WoR was whether Shallan was motivated anymore by her family. It really disappeared in OB; but I suspect this tension will return. 

 

Edit: “it’s” is referring to the fact that her drama is self-actualization

Edited February 5, 2018 by ale

[lu-tze]

12 minutes ago, Alderant said:

don't know how I missed @ale's post here,

I deleted it because i was responding to a post on page 2. Luckily it was quoted in full before i realized my faux pas

[Alderant she/her]

13 minutes ago, ale said:

It’s how she defines herself. One of the subtexts of TWoK/WoR was whether Shallan was motivated anymore by her family. It really disappeared in OB; but I suspect this tension will return. 

Ah, I should amend my statement. I was trying to make a quick edit because people replied just as I hit the "submit reply" button.

You're really close on this. The family stuff was actually the lower-level driving factors for her plot in WoK, however, even by WoR her thoughts considering her family were practically non-existent until after Mraise entered the picture. She was focused on Jasnah's work. Now, the argument could be made that Shallan's flashback scenes were about her family, but (and I'll go into this more in my analysis post that I keep saying is going to be done), in reality, Shallan's exploits to heal her family were not about her family's well-being, though that's what she's tricked herself into believing. In reality, they were an attempt to restore normalcy, for her own sake. She screwed it up by killing her mother. She was the reason her father went off the deep end. She was the reason Nan Balat was broken, the reason Asha Jushu was the way he was, etc. That's the real subtext of WoR, that everything was her fault, and even more so in WoK because, again, she killed her father and put her family into its situation.

It also brings statements like "It helps when you're crazy" a little more into focus, though that's another point entirely.

Quote

I deleted it because i was responding to a post on page 2. Luckily it was quoted in full before i realized my faux pas

Hey, don't stress it. Never feel that you can't say something--as has been pointed out, I didn't read the whole thing, and you had two people comment on it.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Alderant

[wotbibliophile]

4 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

On the last point (Pattern only being upset at Shallan's lies when she's Veil), this isn't actually something I've noticed, so I need to look into it. 

This reminds me of when Shallan has to ask Pattern if her brothers are alive. She is afraid she lightweaved her conversations with them and lied to herself that they were fine. This is why I am so against Shallan getting married. She cannot keep track of reality. I know she is supposed to better by the end of OB, but she had zero internal reflection. I don't see why I should believe she is better. There is also the fact that she drew a picture and had no memory of it and that the Ghostbloods want her to interact with the Unmade. I don't see why I should believe she has a firm grasp of reality.

 

1 hour ago, DimChatz said:

She killed Tyn when she was attacked by using her shardblade, which she had seriously considered using only once before, in the alley with Jasnah.

I'm being picky even though there is no reason to be. She thinks of using her shardblade after the events in the alley. She berates herself for not thinking of it when she was actually in danger.

 

4 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

(It conveys too many bad messages to men that "no" actually means "try harder"!)

Yes. This is exactly what I mean. And it is me who thinks only Sanderson's female characters think about sex.

 

46 minutes ago, Alderant said:

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

"Shallan" without "Veil" is kind of boring and demure, but it's who Shallan's father wanted her to be, and who Shallan thinks Adolin wants her to be.  "Veil" without "Shallan" is rather foolish and also kind of a jerk when interacting with Kaladin (all of the snark, with none of the kindness to balance it out).  She'll never take control of her personas in this current state, like Wit suggested, until she accepts both "Shallan" and "Veil" are the real her.

Ah see, I liked your post up until here. We didn't really see Veil interact with Kaladin, but we know from ample text that the Veil persona held her attraction to Kaladin. We do, however, see the "Shallan" persona acting with quite a lot of snark and no kindness on several occasions.

I agree. It is Shallan who acts like a jerk. Shallan prevented Veil from interacting with Kaladin. I was really hoping to see Veil flirt with Kaladin. I think Veil showed lots of kindness. She was the one concerned with the starving people of Kholinar. She was the one who wanted to help. When was Veil unkind?

 

2 hours ago, Alderant said:

I heard something interesting the other day with regards to this triangle that I didn't understand. People like to tout on here that Adolin is just this perfect guy for Shallan, that he just gets her and he understands her and that he can help her, and that Kaladin is so bad for her and is encouraging her bad habits and fracturing mental state. Based on what I've read in Oathbringer (and to a lesser extent, Words of Radiance), how is that conclusion being drawn? Because what I read in Oathbringer was Adolin actually furthering the problems of Shallan's mental state, not helping them. Kaladin aside, who I think was largely unavailable emotionally to be able to help Shallan, how is Adolin's behavior to Shallan actually beneficial to her mental state, when he is actually encouraging the problem, as Kaladin has been accused of doing?

I don't know for sure, but I think it is Adolin's repeated line that he just wants the real Shallan. He just wants her to be herself. However, I agree with you that what we have actually seen is that Adolin has not helped Shallan's mental health. He is the reason Shallan made Radiant. This was obviously Shallan's choice, but she tried to explain to him that she couldn't practice with a shardblade. I can't blame Adolin for Radiant, but I can blame him for not listening to her concerns. Also, Adolin says he just wants the real Shallan, but actually he is hanging out and drinking with Veil. So he is not actually helping Shallan be herself; he obviously caved. He is going along with what Shallan wants. Shallan is more comfortable being three people.

 

ETA:

12 minutes ago, Alderant said:

You're really close on this. The family stuff was actually the lower-level driving factors for her plot in WoK, however, even by WoR her thoughts considering her family were practically non-existent until after Mraise entered the picture. She was focused on Jasnah's work. Now, the argument could be made that Shallan's flashback scenes were about her family, but (and I'll go into this more in my analysis post that I keep saying is going to be done), in reality, Shallan's exploits to heal her family were not about her family's well-being, though that's what she's tricked herself into believing. In reality, they were an attempt to restore normalcy, for her own sake. She screwed it up by killing her mother. She was the reason her father went off the deep end. She was the reason Nan Balat was broken, the reason Asha Jushu was the way he was, etc. That's the real subtext of WoR, that everything was her fault, and even more so in WoK because, again, she killed her father and put her family into its situation.

 

This is what I think as well. It is why, until OB, I thought Shallan only cared about herself. She is very self-centered. For her age that is normal, for a hero it is problematic.

Edited February 5, 2018 by wotbibliophile

[Alderant she/her]

3 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

I don't know for sure, but I think it is Adolin's repeated line that he just wants the real Shallan. He just wants her to be herself. However, I agree with you that what we have actually seen is that Adolin has not helping Shallan's mental health. He is the reason Shallan made Radiant. This was obviously Shallan's choice, but she tried to explain to him that she couldn't practice with a shardblade. I can't blame Adolin for Radiant, but I can blame him for not listening to her concerns. Also, Adolin says he just wants the real Shallan, but actually he is hanging out and drinking with Veil. So he is not actually helping Shallan be herself; he obviously caved. He is going along with what Shallan wants. Shallan is more comfortable being three people.

See this is the thing that doesn't make sense to me. Adolin keeps saying he wants Shallan to be herself, to be the "real" Shallan, yet he has no idea who that is. He has fallen in love with a mask that has been in place since the moment he first saw her. In fact, between the time they meet and the time they marry, we've seen Shallan erect a lot of walls between her real self and Adolin. This makes the "hanging out and drinking with Veil" thing really weird, because by the end of Oathbringer, Veil is closer to the real Shallan than the persona he married is, and Adolin can't feel "romantic" around Veil.

[lu-tze]

4 minutes ago, Alderant said:

though that's what she's tricked herself into believing. In reality, they were an attempt to restore normalcy, for her own sake.

The foundational lie; and one that on occasion she would return to even in WoR (partly to justify working with the ghostbloods). In OB it seems like shallan is confronting the fact that lies are too comfortable; but nothing is prompting her to confront her foundational truth with maybe the exception of pattern.

I think Adolin serves partly as a foil for how Shallan should have grown. If Shallan had confronted her truths:

Adolin: “I killed Sadeas”

shallan: “I killed my parents.”

Now that her brothers are here I expect external pressure to force the issue.

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

7 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

I'm being picky even though there is no reason to be. She thinks of using her shardblade after the events in the alley. She berates herself for not thinking of it when she was actually in danger.

Bah, you're right. I was thinking of this instance below and confused the two:

Quote

She screamed then, jumping to her feet on her bed, dropping the pad, backing against the wall. Before she could consciously think of what she was doing, she was struggling with her sleeve, trying to get the Soulcaster out. It was the only thing she had resembling a weapon. No, that was stupid. She didn’t know how to use it. She was helpless.

Except …

Storms! she thought, frantic. I can’t use that. I promised myself.

She began the process anyway. Ten heartbeats, to bring forth the fruit of her sin, the proceeds of her most horrific act. She was interrupted midway through by a voice, uncanny yet distinct:

What are you? She clutched her hand to her chest, losing her balance on the soft bed, falling to her knees on the rumpled blanket. She put one hand to the side, steadying herself on the nightstand, fingers brushing the large glass goblet that sat there.

“What am I?” she whispered. “I’m terrified.” ~tWoK Chapter 45

 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, ale said:

Now that her brothers are here I expect external pressure to force the issue.

Why? Her brothers have been living with the lie about their Mother's death for years, I don't see any motivation why Shallan would want to change that. Why should Shallan want to tell them the truth, when she is already repressing the truth herself? 

Edited February 5, 2018 by SLNC

[Alderant she/her]

1 minute ago, ale said:

The foundational lie; and one that on occasion she would return to even in WoR (partly to justify working with the ghostbloods). In OB it seems like shallan is confronting the fact that lies are too comfortable; but nothing is prompting her to confront her foundational truth with maybe the exception of pattern.

I think Adolin serves partly as a foil for how Shallan should have grown. If Shallan had confronted her truths:

Adolin: “I killed Sadeas”

shallan: “I killed my parents.”

Now that her brothers are here I expect external pressure to force the issue.

Hm. I'm trying really hard to understand your point in the first paragraph, but my mind's having difficulty. What are you meaning by "foundational lie"?

Agreed on the latter point, however. She could have told him at any point--there were numerous opportunities. Be careful calling Adolin a foil, though. You'll anger a lot of people saying that he's less significant

Also, I feel that her brothers are probably not going to bring up the fact that Shallan killed their father except perhaps with her alone. That's not the kind of secret you just bring up in high society, and they don't know the truth about ninja'd again.

@SLNC brings up a valid point, however; Shallan hasn't told her brothers about the truth surrounding her mother's death. Presumably, with her arc in OB, she's going to try to hide that fact desperately from them since she doesn't want to face that pain.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Alderant said:

Also, I feel that her brothers are probably not going to bring up the fact that Shallan killed their father except perhaps with her alone. That's not the kind of secret you just bring up in high society, and they don't know the truth about ninja'd again.

Also I don't think she has a big problem with the Truth, that she killed her father. She is pretty reconciled with that. Her Third Truth/Fourth Ideal, that she killed her mother, is her problem.

I don't think, that Adolin is acting as a foil there either. Shallan already did tell Truths the right way, even that she killed her father. She accepted that. She's struggling with her having killed her mother. She doesn't want to accept, that because of her long repression of it. Adolin never repressed, that he killed Sadeas.

That whole scene was just trustbuilding. Shallan refused to reciprocate the trust though.

[wotbibliophile]

4 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

Are there any times when Shallan mentions that Kaladin is [something negative] (after the chasms this is) in her inner monologue?  She makes the veiled (ha!) reference to him not encouraging her to be herself to Adolin when Adolin tries to break up with her, and then of course she makes cutting remarks to Kaladin's face, but I don't remember Shallan thinking negative things in her musings.  I may totally be forgetting something though...  It would be interesting to see if Veil would react to any such thoughts.  I would guess Shallan wouldn't be thinking of her feelings for Kaladin, since she is repressing them onto Veil, so she has no reason to think about him much.  But... another question, when she makes her cutting comments in OB, do we see any of those from Shallan's PoV?

Shallan really does not think about Kaladin (or Adolin). Radiant's comment that they had been debating between Adolin/Kaladin for months is new information. What is funny is that Shallan only thinks about Kaladin around Adolin. There is the time in WOR when she misses what Adolin says because she is thinking Kaladin is so awesome. Then there is the time in OB when Adolin looks through her sketches and she is relieved he does not see her sketch of Kaladin. Somehow Veil had been leaking through on that one. I really wonder what that means. I don't think it can be that Veil drew the sketch because we know Veil is bad at drawing. If it had been a bad drawing of Kaladin, then why would Shallan be embarrassed? Somehow Shallan drew Kaladin and Veil seeped in enough that the drawing of Kaladin is very flattering or something. What could it be? No shirt? A come hither expression? What?

Your last question is a good one. I think the answer is no. We don't see those cutting comments from Shallan's POV. I hadn't thought about it before, but now I am very curious. I don't believe Shallan has negative thoughts about Kaladin (post chasms).

@DimChatz Gotcha. That is an interesting quote because Shallan calls her shardblade her sin. The proceeds of her most horrific act. Way back when (WOK) I thought she meant killing her father, but she obviously means killing her mother. I think this supports @SLNC and @Alderant that she will avoid telling her brothers about killing her mother as long as she can. She had some memory of killing her mother and she has never been tempted to tell her brothers what really happened.

Edited February 5, 2018 by wotbibliophile

[lu-tze]

5 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Why? Her brothers have been living with the lie about their Mother's death for years, I don't see any motivation why Shallan would want to change that. Why should Shallan want to tell them the truth, when she is already repressing the truth herself? 

 

3 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I feel that her brothers are probably not going to bring up the fact that Shallan killed their father except perhaps with her alone.

The basic premise I have is that the ground is set for Shallan to fall into the same position she took up in Jah Keved: that of trying to hold the family together, to silence internal discord, or pave over internal schisms. I think that similarities in kind will provoke her to confront her true motivations. 

Conflict between her brothers and the rest of the Kholin family could prompt these feelings; a reckoning regarding Sadeas' murder; or tensions between Shallan's continuing work for the ghostbloods, their relationship with Helaran, and the rest of her family. In fact, this may be the most likely: the external pressure on the family was (besides loss-of-status due to Shallan's killing her mother) indebtedness to the ghostbloods -- a debt which is considered not fully repaid. 

9 minutes ago, Alderant said:

What are you meaning by "foundational lie"?

The lie upon which all the others are built. That her ends were (are?) noble and selfless, that the original purpose to her quest was the salvation of her brothers, and not her own respite.

[Alderant she/her]

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Also I don't think she has a big problem with the Truth, that she killed her father. She is pretty reconciled with that. Her Third Truth/Fourth Ideal, that she killed her mother, is her problem.

I don't think, that Adolin is acting as a foil there either. Shallan already did tell Truths the right way, even that she killed her father. She accepted that. She's struggling with her having killed her mother. She doesn't want to accept, that because of her long repression of it. Adolin never repressed, that he killed Sadeas.

That whole scene was just trustbuilding. Shallan refused to reciprocate the trust though.

True. She did accept the first three fairly easily. And that's just another on a laundry list of dissimilarities between Shallan and Adolin. As I said before, a relationship that is not built on trust is doomed to fail. Despite his "awesomeness" and "good-guyness" Shallan just does not trust Adolin, and that is a huge problem.

@ale I will get to your comments later tonight.

[Ailvara]

5 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

Like the art thing - it's explicit that Kaladin uses art for useful things and as a means of study, and that he's interested in Shallan's scholarly drawing.  It's explicit that Shallan chose natural history because she liked the study and observation elements of art.  Combine these two together, and you've got (another) commonality.

One additional thing that strikes me in this, is how it relates to that Brandon's video about crafting romance. Apart from braided roses, the thing he recommends to do, is to take two characters who seem completely not right for each other, and then tweak it bit by bit to completely turn it over. So it's exactly that, an artist and a soldier, two different worlds... but then not really. Brandon has used it a lot in the past too. And I think Shadolin is this turned 180 degrees... 

2 hours ago, DimChatz said:

That shows me these three things:

• Shallan is no stranger to putting on masks to please others. She didn't start doing it when she became able to lightweave. It just helped.
• Also isn't it strange that she puts up the same mask with Adolin as she did for her father. Although they are VERY different people, Shallan wants to be what she thinks they both want her to be. The perfect Vorin daughter or wife
• (...) 

I didn't remember she was different around her brothers. Time for a reread. This is interesting, they might actually be capable of noticing that she's doing it again and that it means nothing good. I would like that twist - a happy ending with a wedding and a family reunion...  only to have one of these blessings undermine the other one next. 

[Rainier]

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Oddly though, Adolin liked the pre-Oathbringer integrated Shallan just fine. 

Wait, what integrated Shallan? She creates Veil long before she gets to the Shattered Plains, and while she doesn't start slipping into other names in her internal monologue until Oathbringer, I think it's a stretch to say we've ever seen an integrated Shallan. The earliest glimpse we see of her is immediately after she killed her mother, and everything after that is her fractured personalities responding to her circumstances.