[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

I will make this brief, since this will be part of the coming analysis, but Shallan's habits of running from her problems began with Lyn covering up her mother's death.

You're referring to Shallan's father here right? It's Lin Davar. Lyn is the girl in OB. Just a quick correction. Awesome post, though.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Lin_Davar

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Lyn

Edited February 2, 2018 by DimChatz

[Alderant she/her]

2 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

You're referring to Shallan's father here right? It's Lin Davar. Lyn is the girl in OB. Just a quick correction. Awesome post, though.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Lin_Davar

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Lyn

Thank you for the clarification. I've never actually read the hard copies, haha, but you are correct. I was referring to Lin Davar.

Edit: Corrected original post with the correct spelling.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Alderant

[Guest]

@Alderant

Thank you. That was a lot to read, but it was worth it. Some of the most in depth and - most importantly - coherent analysis and argumentation regarding Shallan in OB, that I have read so far. A few points though.

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

As I've hopefully explained here, it's not that Shallan is dependent on Adolin, per se, but rather that he is and represents what she thinks she wants. Unless she comes to some startling self-awareness between books 3 & 4, I seriously doubt Shallan intentionally divorce Adolin because of a change of heart. As of the end of OB, she is largely still unaware of who she is. She thinks she is "Shallan" because Adolin says so, but I think the arrival of her brothers is going to point out that she's not being honest. Her brothers will likely recognize she is missing her love of natural science. They will probably remark on the changes in her personality. This will happen over time, but in large part she wants to be with Adolin. Adolin, on the other hand, will probably not divorce Shallan. He's tired of courting, and Shallan is pretty much the girl of his dreams. He's finally got her hand in marriage. Yes, he might step back if Shallan told him that she loves Kaladin, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

You have explained that. Masterfully and convincingly so, in fact. But, at least, when I talk about dependence, I talk about her dependence of him to not drop the "Shallan" persona/mask. Adolin is basically the only reason, that she is even keeping "Shallan" around. Like you already said, Veil is much closer to the true Shallan, that we've been reading before.

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

Divorce is a big deal, and I think one of the reasons it's so touted is because we all like Adolin. Divorce is the easiest way for us to possibly have a Shalladin relationship without getting rid of Adolin entirely. "Adolin and Shallan get divorced, and then we still get to enjoy Adolin while Shallan and Kaladin get together."

Well, if I'm personally honest, I'm more on the side of: I don't dislike Adolin, but I'm surely not attached to him. I do agree with you though, that divorce is mainly tauted as the main option because of that. Many really like Adolin, though I personally don't understand why, because as a literary character he kinda falls flat IMHO.

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

In terms of plot, however, what do we stand to gain from this, other than the pleasure of all three characters staying alive? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It creates unnecessary relationship drama (that dreaded "love triangle" thing we all hate), but other than that, it doesn't serve the plot. Adolin is not a main character, so most of the angst from that will come from Shallan, which we don't want to read. In fact, isn't that the exact thing that most of us are against? Plus, Brandon doesn't really do relationship drama like we would see in a more romance-centric plot.

Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Discussing the possibility of Adolin's death kind of seems to have become a bit of a taboo as there are so many fans of him, that are latching onto him, but it is a real possibility.

I know, that you've been joining us later than I expected  , but I'd like to refer to an older post by @DeployParachute , where he outlined why Adolin is in a situation, where he has is ripe to be plucked from the story as an impactful tragic story device.

On 4.12.2017 at 10:11 PM, DeployParachute said:

See, this was part of my problem with realizing that Adolin was going to have little to no character arc or narrative during OB. Let's break down where this character stands now after the flop that I believe the handling of his narrative has been.

1. He has no remaining internal conflicts to address or resolve, no (meaningful) flaws to explore or confront. 

2. He had no external conflicts with other characters too explore or confront. The Sadeas plot had gone nowhere, he doesn't have to be king, he isn't competing for Shallan's affection anymore.

So, if Adolin does not have any more personal character arcs or growth to achieve (and no, sorry, I do not see "figure out how to revive my dead shardblade" as very important to the greater narrative), what purpose is he going to serve within the future books. Glad you asked ( though I know you didn't):

1. Adolin has now been painted as the stabilizing force for Shallan's personality issues. He is someone who is heavily depended on by her moving forward. If he were absent, Shallan likely would be forced to do something about her condition sooner.

2. Clearly, Kaladin and Adolin have grown closer as companions. I'm not going to call them best buds yet, but out of all the characters in the narrative outside of bridge four, Adolin is right up there with Dalinar with regards to respect and a sense of dependability that Kaladin has.

3. Everyone in the narrative (other than clearly defined antagonist elements) likes Adolin, and don't have any serious problems with him. He is a very strong and prominent figure in what remains of Alethi society

4. He is the only Kholin to not have any measure of Radiancy

Looking at all of these things from a plotting or narrative perspective, I think readers who hope for a happy ending path forward for this character should be very worried about his future. He has been seemingly set up to be a ripe tragic plot device just waiting to be picked at the right time by the author. He can be lifted right out, while providing the narrative with several interesting avenues to explore, both from a plot perspective, and a character growth/regression perspective from the rest of the mains. Either Brandon doesn't see what problems exist for this characters narrative, or his plan for Adolin doesn't necessitate the kind of growth and challenges that other viewpoint characters have to experience, because his service to the plot is more...tragic.

This is part of the reason I was a little distraught over his end state at OB, because without something for him to actively do (especially with regards to himself), it certainly seems a good probability that his days are numbered.

Additionally to that, Adolin (or his equivalent) died in The Way of Kings Prime, it is not much of an indicator, but from what I've been gathering his role in that book was similar to his current role in Stormlight - so I wouldn't be too surprised if he soon has outlived his... usefulness. I've always seen Adolin more as a tool employed by the author, which is probably also why he lacked a lot of deeper characterization. He was not worth it to be really fleshed out, because he was always planned to die.

[Alderant she/her]

7 minutes ago, SLNC said:

That was a lot to read, but it was worth it. Some of the most in depth and - most importantly - coherent analysis and argumentation regarding Shallan in OB, that I have read so far.

Thanks! A lot of thought has been going into this. When I finally get to that in-depth character analysis, though, I'll probably just post that I'm doing it and link an external document, haha.

9 minutes ago, SLNC said:

You have explained that. Masterfully and convincingly so, in fact. But, at least, when I talk about dependence, I talk about her dependence of him to not drop the "Shallan" persona/mask. Adolin is basically the only reason, that she is even keeping "Shallan" around. Like you already said, Veil is much closer to the true Shallan, that we've been reading before.

I can get behind that definition.

9 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Additionally to that, Adolin (or his equivalent) died in The Way of Kings Prime, it is not much of an indicator, but from what I've been gathering his role in that book was similar to his current role in Stormlight - so I wouldn't be too surprised if he soon has outlived his... usefulness. I've always seen Adolin more as a tool employed by the author, which is probably also why he lacked a lot of deeper characterization. He was not worth it to be really fleshed out, because he was always planned to die.

...I've never actually read Prime, but if that's true than my points about Adolin not being important to the author are even more valid, haha. Thanks for bringing that to my attention!

10 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Discussing the possibility of Adolin's death kind of seems to have become a bit of a taboo as there are so many fans of him, that are latching onto him, but it is a real possibility.

I know, that you've been joining us later than I expected  , but I'd like to refer to an older post by @DeployParachute , where he outlined why Adolin is in a situation, where he has is ripe to be plucked from the story as an impactful tragic story device.

I don't mind taboo. It's a great planet. No, wait, that's Naboo...Anyway, I really do like to consider where the plot is going. Drafting an epic fantasy plot really makes you look at how other authors have crafted their stories and what is important versus what is not... I mean, I doubt my story will ever go anywhere important (it's something creatively cathartic for me), but it's given me a new, objective insight into these characters and why they're portrayed a certain way within the roles they're meant to fill. And I really do feel that Adolin's death is an important idea to consider, especially given that his death will affect several main characters...Of course, I also theorize that the Stormlight Archive is going to end in disaster to set up the final arc in the Cosmere as a whole, so take that as you will.

And thanks for the DeployParachute quote. I think I might have glanced at his post, but it's thorough and goes pretty well with what's been in my head.

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

6 hours ago, Isilel said:

Come on, now! This quote:

"Kaladin had never had  much time for art. Either the picture depicted something useful - like a map - or it was basically pointless".  Chapter 102, "Celebrant".

is from Kaladin's own PoV! It is when he is visiting the spren art merchant  and when he also sees the picture from the court of Gods.

Aaand yes, you're right that this is from Kal's POV, but taking this one line in Oathbringer to prove your point ignores both the context that follows (as SLNC pointed out) and the fact that, while Kaladin himself never had time for art (he was a soldier, always consumed with caring for him men), I think there is ample evidence in WoR and Oathbringer that he appreciates it. This is not a focus for this post, so I won't say more. I will be doing a reread of the entire SA soon, so I will look for evidence to support my statement at that time.

@Alderant what an awesome post!  I don't have time to react to all of it (or all of @Isilel's either, but I will try to get to it this weekend!), but I wanted to respond to this point about Kaladin and art in particular, because I hadn't really looked into this before.

First, to delve further into Shallan's interest in art, it is notable that even though she considered art, Shallan's Calling is natural history because she loves the study of it.  This is something we learn about Shallan very early on ("The obvious choice was her art, and she did so love sketching.  But it was more than just the drawing that attracted her - it was the study, the questions raised by observation.... So she'd chosen natural history instead." WoK Ch 3) and follows throughout the books, especially through her sketchbook pages where we see the nature is scholarly study.  Early on in OB, Shallan mentions she has moved away from this scholarly drawing ("Shallan had once been more analytical in her drawing, including notes and explanations with the sketches.  Lately she'd only been doing pages and pages of twisted images.  Well, she'd been trained as a scholar, hadn't she?  She shouldn't just draw; she should analyse, extrapolate, speculate." OB Ch. 33) and her sketchbook pages (Urithiru, spren in Kholinar, mandras) and scenes we see after this point indicate she redirects her focus back on scholarly drawing.

Second, I wanted to take a look at Adolin's interest in art.  We have artwork in the book showing the fashion folios he looks at, and both Kaladin ("He lowered his hands and strolled past Adolin's chair.  The sketches in Adolin's book were of men in fine clothing.  The drawings were quite good, their faces done in as much detail as their garments.  "Fashion?" Kaladin asked." WoR Ch. 22) and Shallan ("Adolin browsed a folio, oversized by design so it wouldn't be mistaken for a woman's book... She was amused when she caught sight of the glyphs for this one, with women's script underneath for further clarification.  Fashions out of Liafor and Azir." WoR, Ch. 49) note this. Adolin also notes there is little to do in the warcamps without art shows and sculpture consents (WoR, Ch. 55), so one can ascertain he likes such things.  He shows interest in Shallan's drawings in Kholinar, though caring more for the portraits than the scholarly drawings ("He started through the more recent pictures, and though he noted the ones of strange spren, he idled most on the sketches of the refugees she'd done for her collection." OB Ch. 77).

Third, Kaladin is shown using artwork as a means to study ("Kal looked down at his folio.  It contained drawings of dissected bodies, the muscles splayed and pulled out.  The drawings were so detailed.  Each had glyphpairs to designate every part, and he'd committed those to memory.  Now he studied the procedures, delving into the bodies of men long dead." WoK, Ch. 31).  In the present, Kaladin also shows interest in Shallan's sketchbook, focusing on her mandra drawings ("'May I? Kaladin asked, nodding towards Shallan's sketch.  She shrugged, so he took the sketchpad and studied her pictures of the flying beasts.  As always, they were excellent." OB Ch. 99) and sparking a conversation on the nature of mandras.  Kaladin also seems interested in Shallan's spren drawings in Kholinar ("The men nodded as they saw her drawings, though only Kaladin seemed to catch what she'd been doing.  He looked from the drawing of the shamespren to her hand, then raised an eyebrow at her." OB Ch. 62), though this also points towards him noticing her research methods as much as caring about the drawings.

I may have missed passages on all three points (these were things I remembered and tracked down the quotes), but what can we get from this?  Shallan likes both art and natural history/scholarly drawings.  She chooses natural history as her calling because it attracts her more.  Adolin likes art, but doesn't seem interested in the scholarly drawings.  Kaladin doesn't have time for art, but utilizes it as a means of study and shows interest in scholarly drawings.  So.... I guess Kaladin actually has more in common with Shallan when it comes to art, since Shallan prefers the type of drawings Kaladin likes more than the type of drawings Adolin likes.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Dreamstorm
typos

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

28 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Thank you for the clarification. 

No problem!

30 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I've never actually read the hard copies, haha, but you are correct. I was referring to Lin Davar.

Neither have I... Or, wait... Are e-books considered hard copies? Nah, I'm kidding. Also here'another fun one. Shallan's con-woman teacher in WoR is spelled Tyn and not Tin... Man Shallan knows many people with similar names... Can we expect a character named Tin?

13 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I don't mind taboo. It's a great planet. No, wait, that's Naboo...

And here I thought you'd be partial to Alderaan...

[Alderant she/her]

18 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

@Alderant what an awesome post!  I don't have time to react to all of it (or all of @Isilel's either, but I will try to get to it this weekend!), but I wanted to respond to this point about Kaladin and art in particular, because I hadn't really looked into this before.

First, to delve further into Shallan's interest in art, it is notable that even though she considered art, Shallan's Calling is natural history because she loves the study of it.  This is something we learn about Shallan very early on ("The obvious choice was her art, and she did so love sketching.  But it was more than just the drawing that attracted her - it was the study, the questions raised by observation.... So she'd chosen natural history instead." WoK Ch 3) and follows throughout the books, especially through her sketchbook pages where we see the nature is scholarly study.  Early on in OB, Shallan mentions she has moved away from this scholarly drawing ("Shallan had once been more analytical in her drawing, including notes and explanations with the sketches.  Lately she'd only been doing pages and pages of twisted images.  Well, she'd been trained as a scholar, hadn't she?  She shouldn't just draw; she should analyse, extrapolate, speculate." OB Ch. 33) and her sketchbook pages (Urithiru, spren in Kholinar, mandras) and scenes we see after this point indicate she redirects her focus back on scholarly drawing.

Second, I wanted to take a look at Adolin's interest in art.  We have artwork in the book showing the fashion folios he looks at, and both Kaladin ("He lowered his hands and strolled past Adolin's chair.  The sketches in Adolin's book were of men in fine clothing.  The drawings were quite good, their faces done in as much detail as their garments.  "Fashion?" Kaladin asked." WoR Ch. 22) and Shallan ("Adolin browsed a folio, oversized by design so it wouldn't be mistaken for a woman's book... She was amused when she caught sight of the glyphs for this one, with women's script underneath for further clarification.  Fashions out of Liafor and Azir." WoR, Ch. 49) note this. Adolin also notes there is little to do in the warcamps without art shows and sculpture consents (WoR, Ch. 55), so one can ascertain he likes such things.  He shows interest in Shallan's drawings in Kholinar, though caring more for the portraits than the scholarly drawings ("He started through the more recent pictures, and though he noted the ones of strange spren, he idled most on the sketches of the refugees she'd done for her collection." OB Ch. 77).

Third, Kaladin is shown using artwork as a means to study ("Kal looked down at his folio.  It contained drawings of dissected bodies, the muscles splayed and pulled out.  The drawings were so detailed.  Each had glyphpairs to designate every part, and he'd committed those to memory.  Now he studied the procedures, delving into the bodies of men long dead." WoK, Ch. 31).  In the present, Kaladin also shows interest in Shallan's sketchbook, focusing on her mandra drawings ("'May I? Kaladin asked, nodding towards Shallan's sketch.  She shrugged, so he took the sketchpad and studied her pictures of the flying beasts.  As always, they were excellent." OB Ch. 99) and sparking a conversation on the nature of mandras.  Kaladin also seems interested in Shallan's spren drawings in Kholinar ("The men nodded as they saw her drawings, though only Kaladin seemed to catch what she'd been doing.  He looked from the drawing of the shamespren to her hand, then raised an eyebrow at her." OB Ch. 62), though this also points towards him noticing her research methods as much as caring about the drawings.

I may have missed passages on all three points (these were things I remembered and tracked down the quotes), but what can we get from this?  Shallan likes both art and natural history/scholarly drawings.  She chooses natural history as her calling because it attracts her more.  Adolin likes art, but doesn't seem interested in the scholarly drawings.  Kaladin doesn't have time for art, but utilizes it as a means of study and shows interest in scholarly drawings.  So.... I guess Kaladin actually has more in common with Shallan when it comes to art, since Shallan prefers the type of drawings Kaladin likes more than the type of drawings Adolin likes.

@Dreamstorm Excellent points! I missed that similarity entirely! That is a well earned cookie, especially the analysis at the end.

Edit: And I realized I didn't say this, but thank you. I put a lot of thought into my posts.

Spoiler

 

15 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

No problem!

Neither have I... Or, wait... Are e-books considered hard copies? Nah, I'm kidding. Also here'another fun one. Shallan's con-woman teacher in WoR is spelled Tyn and not Tin... Man Shallan knows many people with similar names... Can we expect a character named Tin?

And here I thought you'd be partial to Alderaan...

Hahaha! You get a cookie too! That one made me laugh!

Spoiler

Edit: And for the record, yes, I'm considering an e-book a hard copy. I have only ever read these books on audio--excepting the novellas (which I've both read and listened to) and White Sand comics, of course.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Alderant

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Alderant said:

...I've never actually read Prime, but if that's true than my points about Adolin not being important to the author are even more valid, haha. Thanks for bringing that to my attention!

In the same vein... I also read, that Adolin's role in Stormlight evolved way differently than in the first draft of TWoK in 2002, so I'd still take that as an indicator with a grain of salt. Still, I find it very odd, that a PoV character with multiple chapters in each of the three books released hasn't yet been given a good and deep characterization. It really seems like it isn't worth the page time, because he won't be around that much longer.

[Blazenella he/him]

Why is this thread still a thing at 2,210 replies, 89 pages, and too many views to count...

[Vissy]

4 minutes ago, Blazenella said:

Why is this thread still a thing at 2,210 replies, 89 pages, and too many views to count...

Maybe you should... Read And Find Out?  

[Alderant she/her]

Just now, Blazenella said:

Why is this thread still a thing at 2,210 replies, 89 pages, and too many views to count...

Because people still like talking about it?

At least we're trying to keep it to one thread, and redirecting people here when they bring it up elsewhere, instead of blowing up every other thread with this topic. Also, this isn't just a discussion about the love triangle. This is a Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin discussion. We talk about all three characters in alternating patterns, though Shallan specifically is a large part of the discussion.

No one's forcing you to read it though, so if you don't want to read it, don't. Comments like this, when people are clearly still discussing and enjoying themselves, and when we're actually trying to keep it contained, are kind of ascerbic and abrasive. Put your discontent in the "What do you think has been discussed to death" thread.

That said, if you have an actual thought about the discussion, I'm all ears!

[Ailvara]

21 minutes ago, Blazenella said:

Why is this thread still a thing at 2,210 replies, 89 pages, and too many views to count...

Because we still happen to come upon new stuff, that's why! 

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

@Alderant what an awesome post!  I don't have time to react to all of it (or all of @Isilel's either, but I will try to get to it this weekend!), but I wanted to respond to this point about Kaladin and art in particular, because I hadn't really looked into this before.

First, to delve further into Shallan's interest in art, it is notable that even though she considered art, Shallan's Calling is natural history because she loves the study of it.  This is something we learn about Shallan very early on ("The obvious choice was her art, and she did so love sketching.  But it was more than just the drawing that attracted her - it was the study, the questions raised by observation.... So she'd chosen natural history instead." WoK Ch 3) and follows throughout the books, especially through her sketchbook pages where we see the nature is scholarly study.  Early on in OB, Shallan mentions she has moved away from this scholarly drawing ("Shallan had once been more analytical in her drawing, including notes and explanations with the sketches.  Lately she'd only been doing pages and pages of twisted images.  Well, she'd been trained as a scholar, hadn't she?  She shouldn't just draw; she should analyse, extrapolate, speculate." OB Ch. 33) and her sketchbook pages (Urithiru, spren in Kholinar, mandras) and scenes we see after this point indicate she redirects her focus back on scholarly drawing.

Second, I wanted to take a look at Adolin's interest in art.  We have artwork in the book showing the fashion folios he looks at, and both Kaladin ("He lowered his hands and strolled past Adolin's chair.  The sketches in Adolin's book were of men in fine clothing.  The drawings were quite good, their faces done in as much detail as their garments.  "Fashion?" Kaladin asked." WoR Ch. 22) and Shallan ("Adolin browsed a folio, oversized by design so it wouldn't be mistaken for a woman's book... She was amused when she caught sight of the glyphs for this one, with women's script underneath for further clarification.  Fashions out of Liafor and Azir." WoR, Ch. 49) note this. Adolin also notes there is little to do in the warcamps without art shows and sculpture consents (WoR, Ch. 55), so one can ascertain he likes such things.  He shows interest in Shallan's drawings in Kholinar, though caring more for the portraits than the scholarly drawings ("He started through the more recent pictures, and though he noted the ones of strange spren, he idled most on the sketches of the refugees she'd done for her collection." OB Ch. 77).

Third, Kaladin is shown using artwork as a means to study ("Kal looked down at his folio.  It contained drawings of dissected bodies, the muscles splayed and pulled out.  The drawings were so detailed.  Each had glyphpairs to designate every part, and he'd committed those to memory.  Now he studied the procedures, delving into the bodies of men long dead." WoK, Ch. 31).  In the present, Kaladin also shows interest in Shallan's sketchbook, focusing on her mandra drawings ("'May I? Kaladin asked, nodding towards Shallan's sketch.  She shrugged, so he took the sketchpad and studied her pictures of the flying beasts.  As always, they were excellent." OB Ch. 99) and sparking a conversation on the nature of mandras.  Kaladin also seems interested in Shallan's spren drawings in Kholinar ("The men nodded as they saw her drawings, though only Kaladin seemed to catch what she'd been doing.  He looked from the drawing of the shamespren to her hand, then raised an eyebrow at her." OB Ch. 62), though this also points towards him noticing her research methods as much as caring about the drawings.

I may have missed passages on all three points (these were things I remembered and tracked down the quotes), but what can we get from this?  Shallan likes both art and natural history/scholarly drawings.  She chooses natural history as her calling because it attracts her more.  Adolin likes art, but doesn't seem interested in the scholarly drawings.  Kaladin doesn't have time for art, but utilizes it as a means of study and shows interest in scholarly drawings.  So.... I guess Kaladin actually has more in common with Shallan when it comes to art, since Shallan prefers the type of drawings Kaladin likes more than the type of drawings Adolin likes.

You guys have already explained everything beautifully, I just have one more little gem to point to (sorry if someone mentioned it, I might have missed sth).

When Kaladin says he only had time for utilitarian pictures, he doesn't mention his surgery folios - which must had taken a lot of his life. He specifically mentions maps for some reason, even though we never saw him using them that much. But then there's that another character that I immediately think of when someone mentions maps in the context of OB. Now I wish we saw Kaladin's reaction to one of these ahh.

[Alderant she/her]

4 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Because we still happen to come upon new stuff, that's why! 

You guys have already explained everything beautifully, I just have one more little gem to point to (sorry if someone mentioned it, I might have missed sth).

When Kaladin says he only had time for utilitarian pictures, he doesn't mention his surgery folios - which must had taken a lot of his life. He specifically mentions maps for some reason, even though we never saw him using them that much. But then there's that another character that I immediately think of when someone mentions maps in the context of OB. Now I wish we saw Kaladin's reaction to one of these ahh.

Are you referring to Amaram? Shallan? Backpack from Dora the Explorer? I'm curious where you're going with this, but I'm clearly not making the leap you just made.

[Ailvara]

1 minute ago, Alderant said:

Are you referring to Amaram? Shallan? Backpack from Dora the Explorer? I'm curious where you're going with this, but I'm clearly not making the leap you just made.

Ahh sorry. I'm talking about Shallan's cool stormlight maps. Might be nothing. Might be something. 

[Alderant she/her]

Just now, Ailvara said:

Ahh sorry. I'm talking about Shallan's cool stormlight maps. Might be nothing. Might be something. 

No, actually I think you're right. One of the main things Kaladin has actually seen Shallan draw is the map of the Shattered Plains, when they were trapped down in the chasm. Until that point, he'd never really had a use for maps, but now he thinks they're valuable. I think that's probably a subliminal connection on Kaladin's part. Though I imagine Kaladin's reaction to those maps would probably be similar to Dalinar's.

[wotbibliophile]

Thanks @Dreamstorm for getting the exact quote on Adolin being a sunrise. I read that when @maxal brought up the Adolin asks Shallan who she becomes quote. I knew some people would dismiss it as just Veil preferring rain so I wanted to make it clear that it has already been established that Shallan really really likes rain. Actually, Shallan's reaction to the highstorm is exactly like her reaction to seeing Kaladin. She dismisses Adolin; she forgets about Adolin when something more interesting is in front of her.

Sorry, I am bad at quoting. Remember that part when Veil starts saying Adolin is boring and she prefers Kaladin? What stuck out to me was that Shallan was uncomfortable. In my experience, people are uncomfortable when there is some truth to what they hear. Maybe Shallan doesn't 100% agree with Veil, but some part of Shallan thinks there is some truth to what Veil said and so she is uncomfortable. Shallan isn't indignant or angry or disbelieving. Shallan doesn't jump to Adolin's defense. I think she is uncomfortable because she agrees (a little bit) with Veil and she wishes she didn't.

@Alderant Great post. Your point about Shallan reacting to telling Kaladin the truth is one I haven't seen before. Not sure I agree, but a great possibility. Shallan is so inconsistent that I have no idea where her motivation comes from.

5 hours ago, Alderant said:

even paints a picture of a really ugly man over him with lightweaving to further contrast that Adolin is the desirable one.

Shallan's reason for doing this is spectacular. She tells Kaladin he is too memorable. She is gushing. Kaladin has this mask for such a brief time. It is almost like it was just an opportunity for Shallan to say Kaladin stands out. Other possibilities are that it was just a joke or to establish that Kaladin does not like to lie and won't wear a mask which sets up for when he somehow breaks Shallan's illusion covering his scars.

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

When Kaladin says he only had time for utilitarian pictures, he doesn't mention his surgery folios - which must had taken a lot of his life. He specifically mentions maps for some reason, even though we never saw him using them that much. But then there's that another character that I immediately think of when someone mentions maps in the context of OB. Now I wish we saw Kaladin's reaction to one of these ahh.

This is great. Kaladin really hasn't had opportunities to use maps. I think it does point to Kaladin thinking of Shallan. It could be the map she drew in the chasms that saved their lives and the special map she is able to lightweave in Urithiru.

ETA:

10 hours ago, Isilel said:

"all other women are jealous of the heroine, so she can only be friends with men".

 

That is an unfortunate one. Another one is the woman has extremely low self esteem and the only way for her to think better of herself is to be in a relationship with a man. I feel like that is where Shallan is. It is yucky.

I agree that romance is not Sanderson's strength. I was thinking about that video of Sanderson talking about romance. He says he intentionally wrote WOK with an immature romance (Shallan/Kabsal) contrasted with a mature one (Dalinar/Navani). I didn't find either relationship to be romantic. Shallan/Kabsal appeared very one sided. Kabsal was interested in Shallan, but Shallan could take him or leave him. A bit of flirting doesn't count as a romance for me.

I didn't like Dalinar/Navani because Navani comes on super strong and Dalinar flat out tells her to back off and she doesn't. She doesn't respect his choice and I think that is really wrong. If it had been a man coming on that strong and a woman blatantly told him to back off and he didn't, it would have been even worse. At least Dalinar wasn't physically threatened by Navani.

Edited February 2, 2018 by wotbibliophile

[Arash.F he/him]

Is there anyone who have actually read all these 89 pages of comments?!

By the way, though Kal is my favorite,

Spoiler

he easily handled Shallan marrying Adolin;

and also I don't really like to see Adolin suffering a romantic tragedy :'(

Edited February 3, 2018 by Arash.F

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

3 hours ago, Arash.F said:

Is there anyone who have actually read all these 89 pages of comments?!

By the way, though Kal is my favorite,

  Reveal hidden contents

he easily handled Shallan marrying Adolin;

and also I don't really like to see Adolin suffering a romantic tragedy :'(

Yes some of us have been here from Day 1. Welcome.

Here's a summary of the thread

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit

And here are @DeployParachute's post about Kaladin dealing with it

 

Edited February 3, 2018 by DimChatz

[Arash.F he/him]

2 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

Yes some of us have been here from Day 1.

Here's a summery of the thread

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit

And here are @DeployParachute's post about Kaladin dealing with it

 

Oh! thanks for the links! I really appreciate it

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

12 minutes ago, Arash.F said:

Oh! thanks for the links! I really appreciate it

No problem!

 

[wotbibliophile]

I reread the summary.

Page 5: In favor of the argument that the personas/masks would work against reintegration to keep their independence. There is the line by Veil that it would be easier to get rid of Shallan. I think this shows how little Veil values Shallan and shows how she wants to keep her distance from Shallan.

 

Page 6:

Quote

"You worry you're going to screw it up?", feeling a warmth inside that wasn't completely due to the wine.

I thought this was funny. Why include the line about the wine? If the line had just been “Shallan felt a warmth inside,” wouldn’t anyone assume she was warmed by Adolin’s words? Adding the part about the wine implies some of the warmth she feels is due to the wine. It lessens the sentimentality of the moment. It reminds me of when Shallan returns from the chasms. Adolin is really emotional and heartfelt and Shallan is a little disappointed she didn’t get to tell her joke. It seems like Shallan wants to use humor to keep a little emotional distance from Adolin. Even at the end of OB Shallan is cracking jokes while trying to convince Adolin she prefers him to Kaladin.

 

I think that Shallan has thoughts of love and Adolin never does should be added to the Shallan/Adolin section.

 

Page 7:

Quote

Something felt warm within him at being near her.  Something felt right.  It wasn't like with Laral, his boyhood crush.  Or even like with Tarah, his first real romance.  It was something different, and he couldn't define it.  He only knew he didn't want it to stop.  It pushed back the darkness. (OB, Ch. 99 Reachers)

Someone explain how this is in line with Kaladin at the end of OB saying he never loved her, she just reminded him of someone (i.e. Tien). In this quote he explicitly compares her to Laral and Tarah. How is this not romantic? The part about “something felt right” is what I read in romances about a “One True Love.”

 

Page 13: I hope someone will do a really close read of Set Up to Fail and list every possible thing that could possibly have been set up to fail. I think Shallan/Adolin will still be the most likely thing set up. If I remember right, there is a brief mention of Sebarial, Ialai, and Mraize. But how can the mere mention of their name be called a set up?

 

Page 15:

Quote

 

Brandon said in early 2016 that he needed to do Kal's and Shallan's backstories first, because “they were going to be important, interacting together for the next few books”…

 

I would really like to see them interacting. They hardly do.

[Athena]

Been following this forum for awhile, but haven't posted here before. I just finished OB today, and like many others, the ending of OB was unsatisfying for me in terms of the Shallan-Kaladin-Adolin triangle. I found this thread very cathartic and I pretty much agree with almost everything that has been said. I for one also think that Adolin isn't healthy for Shallan. Adolin isn't in love in Veil and Radiant, but only the image of "Shallan". The image of "Shallan" to me is the simple image of a light-eyed woman that Adolin wants her to be while she is completely more than that. I think the true Shallan is an equal mixture of all three personas" A scholarly light-eyed woman, a woman who isn't afraid to take lead or fight when necessary (Radiant), and a woman who isn't afraid to lie, kill, or have a drink when necessary (Veil).  Will he still be in love with her if he finds out that she killed both her parents? Or the other things that she associates so closely with Radiant and Veil like pragmaticism and subterfuge?

On Shallan's side, I see Adolin as just an anchor she is using to keep hold of the Shallan persona. In the last but one chapter, she keeps on saying that "Adolin knows me" and she keeps on associating that "me" with the Shallan persona while dismissing the Veil and Radiant persona. I think there is still more to come from this and the marriage wasn't a "conclusion", nor is Adolin a good "support system" for Shallan.

 

 

 

[Dreamstorm]

Hi - I'm sorry to skip back a couple of days, but I wanted to address a couple of older points.  (Also this gets rather long...)

On 2/2/2018 at 8:03 AM, Isilel said:

Well, it's all about expectations, right? Few romances in fiction strike me as "magical", particularly if they end in an (often contrived) "Happily Ever After". It doesn't help that most of them tend to be quite predictable and formulaic. For some reason  I feel that the authors tend to do better, to write something genuinely touching and believable  with tragical romances... And with all respect, I'd certainly not expect a "magical" romantic relationship from Sanderson - it is not his strength.

So, I was hoping for it to not be too annyoing and too tropy and it was that.

This makes sense - we are coming at this from two very different perspectives - I wanted a satisfying romance; you wanted one which wasn't too annoying.  I am definitely a lover of romance (and read a lot of straight-up romance novels), so if a book bothers to include romance, I want to feel it.  (To the magical part, I don't know if you've ever fallen in love, but I find the process IRL to be quite magical, so I want that intense feeling to be captured in books.)  While I think Brandon's romances can be a bit clunky and overdone (i.e. too many declarations of love, Vin/Elend drove me crazy with this), I have actually found them all to be rather charming.  I believe the two characters do truly love each other and Brandon writes situations where the falling in love process feels decently organic.  (I especially enjoyed Wax/Steris.)  I can totally see an alternate reality where Kaladin is not in the picture (and thus all the meta stuff isn't there also) and where the ending of OB was tweaked to make it a moment of strength for Shallan (e.g. she realizes she is the person behind her masks instead of Adolin selecting one and that person behind the masks wants Adolin) where I would be very happy with the Shadolin romance.  So I totally get how someone could look past those elements and be happy with it, especially someone who just didn't want the romance to be annoying - and since this romance wasn't annoying, having it not be over would only open up more possibilities for annoyance.  For me, it wasn't annoying, but it also wasn't satisfying, so I definitely want it not to be over so we can have a more satisfying romance.  (And I feel Brandon has delivered that before, so this is a big step down!)

On 2/2/2018 at 8:03 AM, Isilel said:

See, for me "symbolic evidence" weighs much less than boring and straightforward stuff like:

Pattern liking Adolin, having repeated interactions with him, which seem to be leading to the 2 developing an actual comradely relationship.

Adolin genuinely admiring and appreciating Shallan's art and having an artistic streak himself, while:

"Kaladin had never had  much time for art. Either the picture depicted something useful - like a map - or it was basically pointless".  Chapter 102, "Celebrant".

Pattern's admonitions about Shallan remembering her Truths only happening in her Veil persona, never Shallan. In fact the very reason that Shallan needs her personas is that she can't forget her past, but also can't assimilate it and it debilitates her.

On the situations you mention, I already delved into the art bit above.  (Where it seems the straightforward stuff actually makes that an item in the Kaladin column, or at least not negative to Kaladin, sorry )  On Pattern and Adolin, I think this could mean something or it could not.  Adolin is super likeable, so I'm not surprised someone (spren or no) likes him.  (It's more surprisingly that Syl doesn't like Adolin, something which Kaladin gets after her for.)  If we're using spren favoritism as a indicator of romantic feelings, though, where does that leave Syl's fangirling of Shallan?  Syl is always pushing Shallan on Kaladin, saying he should talk to her, hanging out with her alone to be lightwoven, wanting to stay with Shallan when the group goes on missions, etc.  If Pattern's feelings are such a big indicator, then Syl's feelings should be taken into account when evaluating the "honesty" of Kaladin never being into Shallan romantically.  If we can't take that at face value, then part of the "this is over" analysis starts to fall apart as it means Kaladin still has feelings for Shallan.  On the last point (Pattern only being upset at Shallan's lies when she's Veil), this isn't actually something I've noticed, so I need to look into it.  Thanks for pointing it out!

As far as the bigger point and looking at foreshadowing... you can definitely read Brandon's books and not look beyond the explicit storyline.  (In fact, I think he expects this for a lot of readers.)  But you are going to miss out on things because Brandon foreshadows a lot.  He's said it's "the thing I love to do the most".  (source)  Here are two more WoB where he talks about his foreshadowing (one, two) - how he knows that if he designs it well, there will be people who figure it out where others will be totally surprised.  So, I find a lot of the fun in analyzing the books is to speculate on what may or may not be foreshadowing.  Some of it I'm sure isn't (like I said, the Pattern bond fraying is one of the more speculative one), but then you come to something like Shalladin and the sheer amount of possible foreshadowing elements seems pretty conclusive.  Like I said in a post before, there's just so much you have to explain away with arguments like: Brandon was sloppy, I'm sure that was unintentional, that doesn't mean anything, you're reading too much into things....  And that's not even touching on the explicit elements.  (Like the art thing - it's explicit that Kaladin uses art for useful things and as a means of study, and that he's interested in Shallan's scholarly drawing.  It's explicit that Shallan chose natural history because she liked the study and observation elements of art.  Combine these two together, and you've got (another) commonality.)

On 2/2/2018 at 8:03 AM, Isilel said:

But it wasn't just an ommission, like in those other examples, it was clearly signposted by Shallan's frantic expectation of the reaction and her constant wondering why it didn't come, which is absolutely not how it plays here or in those other cases I pointed out and some more that I didn't.

I think we started this by talking about Pattern and Shallan's bond fraying, and how since she didn't note any weird behavior, it wasn't happening?  Putting aside the fact we get a mentions of Pattern's drowsiness in both WoR and OB (both when Shallan's contemplating being/pretending to be other people), I don't think we can generalize to say that the absence of something means it doesn't mean anything.  (Wow that's convoluted, sorry.)  One other example of the narrative not noting something (here in Shallan's perspective) is that she totally hides the ball on Pattern being her shardblade.  When we get close to the reveal (which comes through Syl and Kaladin), we get some more explicit hints (in the chasms), but there are clues Shallan has a shardblade back in WoK without it being hinted it's actually her spren (she doesn't even remember about Pattern then!)  Brandon also definitely does the bait and switch; Vin's earring is one of my favorites here.  I won't go into too much detail (for spoilers sake), but what we're told about it is very different than what it ends up being.  The hints get stronger as the books go along, but especially from Vin's own perspective, it takes an agonizingly long time for her to come to the realization.  So, just because a character isn't commenting on something being odd, doesn't mean the reader isn't supposed to pick up on it being odd.  But in general - I don't think we say any one thing (the presence of or the absence of) definitively can be disregarded.  Maybe it means something; maybe it doesn't.  But since Brandon is all about foreshadowing, it's always a possibility.

On 2/2/2018 at 1:29 PM, Alderant said:

Adolin represents everything that Shallan wants and should have had in life. He is the charismatic lighteyes, the kind of man that every light-eyed girl dreamed of marrying. And he's here. He's obtainable. Had her life gone normally, she might have been married off to a lighteyed man like him, gotten married, had children, and had a happy family.

To go a bit further, Adolin is the fairy-tale happy ending to what Shallan expected.  We see her expectations very early on ("She'd expected to marry one of her father's allies, then spend the rest of her life sequestered in his manor." WoK, Ch. 3, City of Bells), and also through Shallan's flashbacks as she gets older and increasingly mentions her place in like is the be married off for political gain.  (Not begrudgingly!  Shallan, as we know, had very much accepted this was her place in life.)  Now here is Adolin, and a marriage crafted by someone else (Jasnah instead of her father) for political gain (even if you want to argue it ended up being a love match, it didn't start out that way), which is the fantasy every lighteyed girl who expects an arranged marriage would dream about: the handsome prince, who is nice and gorgeous and supremely talented, and totally in love with you to boot.  Even for Brandon (who as I said, overdoes these things), this seems a bit on the nose as wish fulfillment for Shallan.  (Not to mention super tropey!  Something which seems to be forgotten when discussing the hatred of the braided rose trope.)

On 2/2/2018 at 6:27 PM, wotbibliophile said:

Remember that part when Veil starts saying Adolin is boring and she prefers Kaladin? What stuck out to me was that Shallan was uncomfortable. In my experience, people are uncomfortable when there is some truth to what they hear. Maybe Shallan doesn't 100% agree with Veil, but some part of Shallan thinks there is some truth to what Veil said and so she is uncomfortable. Shallan isn't indignant or angry or disbelieving. Shallan doesn't jump to Adolin's defense. I think she is uncomfortable because she agrees (a little bit) with Veil and she wishes she didn't.

Here's the quote:  "Why did Shallan focus so much on Adolin?  He was nice, but also bland.  You couldn't tease him without feeling bad, but Kaladin, he glared at you in the most satisfying of ways.  The part of her that was still Shallan, deep down, was bothered by this line of thinking.  So instead, Veil turned her attention to the palace."  OB, Ch. 63, Within the Mirror

Are there any times when Shallan mentions that Kaladin is [something negative] (after the chasms this is) in her inner monologue?  She makes the veiled (ha!) reference to him not encouraging her to be herself to Adolin when Adolin tries to break up with her, and then of course she makes cutting remarks to Kaladin's face, but I don't remember Shallan thinking negative things in her musings.  I may totally be forgetting something though...  It would be interesting to see if Veil would react to any such thoughts.  I would guess Shallan wouldn't be thinking of her feelings for Kaladin, since she is repressing them onto Veil, so she has no reason to think about him much.  But... another question, when she makes her cutting comments in OB, do we see any of those from Shallan's PoV?

And regarding Shallan/Veil symmetries, Veil's discussion about Kholinar and the chaotic life to it reminds me a lot of how Shallan felt about Kharbranth in her first chapter (Ch. 3).  Just another time when we see Veil expressing thoughts which were previously expressed by Shallan.

On 2/2/2018 at 6:27 PM, wotbibliophile said:

I didn't like Dalinar/Navani because Navani comes on super strong and Dalinar flat out tells her to back off and she doesn't. She doesn't respect his choice and I think that is really wrong. If it had been a man coming on that strong and a woman blatantly told him to back off and he didn't, it would have been even worse. At least Dalinar wasn't physically threatened by Navani.

I've never thought of it this way...  I feel like Navani's courtship fit her personality style (and I have to say the romance worked better for me after learning more about past Dalinar and Navani as well), but it's a good point that if a man was that forceful to a woman, I might have been disturbed by the interactions.  Someone a long ways back (actually this may have been you?) mentioned that Brandon makes his female characters the ones who usually push the relationships, especially sexual interactions.  This seems to follow on this point, but it is a double standard.  We are in Dalinar's head, so we know he actually desperately wants Navani, so that makes it better as well.  But again... had the roles been reversed...?  Even if I wasn't disturbed, I would have definitely been annoyed by the false modesty element of a women fending of a man's advances even though she actually really wanted him.  (It conveys too many bad messages to men that "no" actually means "try harder"!)

[Alderant she/her]

38 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

While I think Brandon's romances can be a bit clunky and overdone (i.e. too many declarations of love, Vin/Elend drove me crazy with this), I have actually found them all to be rather charming.  I believe the two characters do truly love each other and Brandon writes situations where the falling in love process feels decently organic.  (I especially enjoyed Wax/Steris.)

I actually loved this whole paragraph, but I didn't want to quote it in its entirety for brevity's sake.

I think you made a good point here (and it is one which I targeted in my...rather lengthy post). Brandon isn't a romance author, but I feel that romances are something he does exceptionally well when you compare him to the vast majority of fantasy authors out there, most of which take the angle of "Hey, these two are together. They like each other--here's the obligatory scene where they hook up to show you that they are an item." Brandon's writing is not like that. Like many of his other plotting and character arcs, he builds toward something kind of like a rolling stone. (Wax/Steris, the Parshendi going into stormform, the revelation at the end of WoA)

In my experience, while his romances may seem clunky sometimes (especially compared to the more...intricate...plots of romance novels), I have found them to be quite satisfying and definable, in a manner that leaves very little doubt about whether or not a couple has been established. The fact that there is so much arguing even still, months after OB's release, and that almost every reader I've seen has been dissatisfied with the romantic arc between Adolin and Shallan, tells me that it's not decisive at all, and I don't think Brandon meant it to be. Maybe my opinion will change with a second read-through, but the more I think about it, the more I think we're meant to be dissatisfied about it.

As you said, Brandon loves to foreshadow. Why would he drop all of these subtle similarities and hints between Kal and Shallan, if her marriage to Adolin is the be-all end-all?

To further that point, as someone who appreciates a good romantic plot (but doesn't read romance novels), I have been, since early in their relationship in Words of Radiance, extremely dissatisfied with how Adolin and Shallan's relationship has been portrayed. It is not romantic. It's not even really cute. I feel that Adolin really does like Shallan, but I've never seen anything in the literature that tells me that this couple is in love. I have, however, seen a lot in the literature that tells me that this couple is trying to act like they're in love, and there's a big difference between those two.

57 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Not to mention super tropey!  Something which seems to be forgotten when discussing the hatred of the braided rose trope.

Again, great paragraph. It's really because people like Adolin--I mean, really, if Adolin were not in the picture, if he never existed, would people be so upset about Kaladin and Shallan getting together? I doubt it. These same people that complain about "main characters just dither about their relationship the whole time" overlook Elend/Vin and Raodan/Sarene. Both of these relationships had defining viewpoint characters that were in love with each other, yet they never got in the way of the plot, so I don't understand why having Kaladin and Shallan in a relationship is a problem, when those two were not.

Below here has nothing to do with anything I have previously commented on. These are my own thoughts.

I heard something interesting the other day with regards to this triangle that I didn't understand. People like to tout on here that Adolin is just this perfect guy for Shallan, that he just gets her and he understands her and that he can help her, and that Kaladin is so bad for her and is encouraging her bad habits and fracturing mental state. Based on what I've read in Oathbringer (and to a lesser extent, Words of Radiance), how is that conclusion being drawn? Because what I read in Oathbringer was Adolin actually furthering the problems of Shallan's mental state, not helping them. Kaladin aside, who I think was largely unavailable emotionally to be able to help Shallan, how is Adolin's behavior to Shallan actually beneficial to her mental state, when he is actually encouraging the problem, as Kaladin has been accused of doing?

Spoiler

I'm not saying that I think she should have ended up together with Kaladin in this book. I don't think that would have been a good idea and with the massive amount of material covered in Oathbringer, I think minimizing the importance of the triangle in the book was actually a good idea, and I'm happy that the triangle wasn't heavily pursued. I like the angle the book went, but I would have been more satisfied with its resolution if I had actually seen some actual romance between Adolin and Shallan. If this is the angle that their relationship is going to continue ad infinitum, I really hope their relationship blossoms in the timeskip between 3 & 4.

 

[lu-tze]

(Deleted)

Edited February 5, 2018 by ale
Replying to 3-month old post