[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Guest]

1 hour ago, DeployParachute said:

It almost feels like you are being deliberately obtuse in regards to this, as you fail to acknowledge the extreme social and emotional pressures on both of them to ignore each other. There are many reasons neither of them could interact with each other in a regular in meaningful fashion:

1. They had separate duties and responsibilities that occupied their time, and what little free time she had, Shallan was obligated to spend time with her betrothed, due to expectations from both society and from herself.  I'll need to go back and read through the sections to confirm, but I find it interesting to note that Shallan did very little active pursuit of Adolin herself, it was always Adolin who had to come and find her. She was always happy when he did show up, but I find it strange that there is very little proactiveness on her part during OB in her pursuit of Adolin, unlike her initial pursuit of him during WoR, where she was very much on a mission.  

2. If you are harboring romantic interest in someone who is not your betrothed or significant other, and you are trying to ensure you are meeting the expectations for your current situation, do you a) risk all of that by actively choosing to spend more time with the person who is potentially a threat to your budding relationship and place in Alethi society, or do you b ) pretend that person doesn't exist outside the times where your responsibilities force you to interact with them?  Shallan doesn't want to betray Adolin, and she doesn't want to fail in the commitment that she made with the causal betrothal, so what else is she to do but intentionally ignore Kaladin and where these fledgling feelings she has for him could lead.  Not to mention that before Kaladin even returns, she learns that he was the one who slew her brother on the battlefield.  Not to mention that she was actively chastised by Jasnah for even spending some of her free thoughts thinking about Kaladin. When you feel something is potentially wrong, and other people insinuate to you it is wrong, then yeah, you're going to try to avoid that thing.  This isn't rocket science, you can see this kind of human behavior in your own life.  I know I've seen it in mine.

3. The same goes for Kaladin as it did in my second point about Shallan.  The expectations are there, and have always been there.  I like Shallan, but she is off limits, because she is Adolin's.  When you like someone, and you know you CAN'T HAVE THEM, you don't seek out their company to become best friends.  You avoid them until you can either confront your emotions about them, or get over them entirely.  Unless of course you want to actively seek to disrupt an existing relationship to insert yourself. But again, neither of these characters are that kind of person.  It's one giant game of circling the elephant in the room, looking at the walls, and going about your tasks while pretending its not there.  It's avoidance, and it's a perfectly natural response for human beings in this kind of situation. 

Exactly this.

And what do we have now? A completed arranged union between a woman, who doesn't know who she wants to be and what she wants to do (no, that ambivalence isn't gone as we have confirmation, that she still will use her masks and only has marginal control over them), torn between duties to her highprince husband and to humanity as a Radiant, and a man, who never really thinks about his wife, but still has an obligation to make it work due to social expectations, still tried to get out, but in the end didn't, because his now wife begged him for help with her ambivalence problems (so she could anchor Shallan to him). Great foundations, great chemistry between them (/s). This union is one of social expectations and necessity. Feelings never factored in. Sexual attractions are not feelings of love, but often get confused.

Regarding Kaladin and Shallan not understanding each other:

I beg to differ, extremely. Kaladin and Shallan spent 1 - one - day together by circumstance and understood more about each other, than Adolin has understood about Shallan during the whole of their courtship. Their respective illnesses are not what defines their character! It is a part of their characterization, yes, but it is not what they really are.

Shallan completely switched her view of Kaladin from perceived hatefulness, to seeing him as a man of passion, dedication and determination, which is spot on. What Kaladin once saw as lighteyed arrogance, he then saw as what Shallan really is. A survivor, that was forced to do terrible things to her own family, but despite her brokenness - she survived.

Regarding Adolin understanding Shallan's mental issues:

He doesn't. Plain and simple. How could he? Not even Shallan herself understands it. Adolin thinks, that she is becoming different persons. Which is just plain wrong. She is still Shallan - there is one WoB a few pages back that confirms that. She has been crafting masks to fix perceived shortcomings of herself, but she lost control over them. And we also know, that she not yet has regained control over them through another WoB.

Thing is, that she only perceives these shortcomings. In reality, she would be perfectly capable of doing these things without Veil and Radiant. It is all in her head.

There is a dichotomy, that @Dreamstorm mentioned a long time ago now:

Adolin is saying the right things and doing the wrong things, because by handling Veil as a different person, he confirms Shallan's own perception of her problem and forces her to hold onto her masks, because he is also making clear, that he isn't interested in anything Veil represents, which are intrinsic parts of Shallan though. Everything Veil did, Shallan also did. Everything Veil will do, Shallan will also do. Her mask doesn't matter, her thoughts on the masks don't matter. Veil isn't different from Shallan. It is all Shallan. Including her feelings for Kaladin, which certainly aren't gone from Veil.

Kaladin, on the other hand, is saying the wrong things, but doing the right things, by dealing with Veil as if she was Shallan too. Because she is.

Edited January 26, 2018 by SLNC

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

Regarding Adolin understanding Shallan's mental issues:

He doesn't. Plain and simple. How could he? Not even Shallan herself understands it. Adolin thinks, that she is becoming different persons. Which is just plain wrong. She is still Shallan - there is one WoB a few pages back that confirms that. She has been crafting masks to fix perceived shortcomings of herself, but she lost control over them. And we also know, that she not yet has regained control over them through another WoB.

Thing is, that she only perceives these shortcomings. In reality, she would be perfectly capable of doing these things without Veil and Radiant. It is all in her head.

There is a dichotomy, that @Dreamstorm mentioned a long time ago now:

Regarding Adolin treating Veil and Radiant as separate from Shallan, isn't he following her cues on that front? She acts as if they are different people to Adolin, and he goes along with that. It's a function of how she was trying so hard to maintain the arranged marriage in WoR. She wasn't trying nearly so hard with Kaladin.

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Adolin is saying the right things and doing the wrong things, because by handling Veil as a different person, he confirms Shallan's own perception of her problem and forces her to hold onto her masks, because he is also making clear, that he isn't interested in anything Veil represents,

Isn't that going a bit far though? Yes, he said he wasn't going to be intimate with her, but it's not like he completely rejected her, or am I not remembering something?

 

[Guest]

Just now, Mage of Lirigon said:

Regarding Adolin treating Veil and Radiant as separate from Shallan, isn't he following her cues on that front? She acts as if they are different people to Adolin, and he goes along with that. It's a function of how she was trying so hard to maintain the arranged marriage in WoR. She wasn't trying nearly so hard with Kaladin.

I'm not blaming him. Not at all. Like I said, "How could he?" I just wanted to make clear, that he doesn't understand her problems. Exactly because he is just following her cues. People are trying to make me believe, that Adolin has some deeper understanding of her issue and that is why he is better for her, but it just isn't true.

2 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Yes, he said he wasn't going to be intimate with her, but it's not like he completely rejected her, or am I not remembering something?

They are drinking buddies... The epitome of a "hey you're pretty cool to have a few drinks with, but you're not really my friend,sorry" relationship.

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

Just now, SLNC said:

I'm not blaming him. Not at all. Like I said, "How could he?" I just wanted to make clear, that he doesn't understand her problems. Exactly because he is just following her cues. People are trying to make me believe, that Adolin has some deeper understanding of her issue and that is why he is better for her, but it just isn't true.

In my own opinion, I've never thought that Adolin and Shallan had some super deep understanding of Shallan, but I do think that he is ready and willing to support her as much as he is able. Kaladin might understand her better because of shared experiences, but is he really in a place right now where he could support Shallan with her problems, or even life in general? I took Shallan deciding to to choose Adolin as preferring the former to the latter.

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They are drinking buddies... The epitome of a "hey you're pretty cool to have a few drinks with, but you're not really my friend,sorry" relationship.

Anyone I choose to go out and drink with regularly I consider a good friend, so maybe that anecdotal qualification isn't universal?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Anyone I choose to go out and drink with regularly I consider a good friend, so maybe that anecdotal qualification isn't universal?

I don't. I just call them friends.

In the end, it is irrelevant though. Veil is Shallan and not a different person. Adolin treating her as that, further cements Shallan's view on her masks. That they are not her, that they are different. Like how she is blaming her wandering eyes on Veil, but, in the end, it was her, that had them. The distinction she is making in her head is irrelevant.

9 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

In my own opinion, I've never thought that Adolin and Shallan had some super deep understanding of Shallan, but I do think that he is ready and willing to support her as much as he is able. Kaladin might understand her better because of shared experiences, but is he really in a place right now where he could support Shallan with her problems, or even life in general? I took Shallan deciding to to choose Adolin as preferring the former to the latter.

And your opinion is all fine and dandy, but that wasn't my point. I was just trying to refute a point that was made.

But I'll gladly say my case again:

Down in the chasms, Kaladin saw all these other sides of Shallan, but as Shallan. Not as Veil. Fearless, sometimes even bold, pragmatic, resourceful. Sides Adolin never saw, so he'll obviously find Veil completely out of character. Kaladin... not so much. When Veil took over and suggested a mutiny or stealing some Stormlight for him, he wasn't even fazed by Shallan saying that, because for him it isn't out of character and it isn't, as we have seen in the chasm in WoR.

Words don't matter, actions count. Adolin is enabling, by confirming her interpretation of her problem, but Kaladin isn't... he was actually making her think about it, but she quickly repressed that again.

Support is great, I agree. Blind support isn't. Sometimes you need a different perspective. I think, that Kaladin would provide that, if Shallan just told him. He won't figure it out on his own, because he doesn't see anything wrong. Like Brandon already said, Shallan just perceives her shortcomings, but Kaladin knows better. Because he remembers her actions in the chasm.

[Dreamstorm]

17 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Anyone I choose to go out and drink with regularly I consider a good friend, so maybe that anecdotal qualification isn't universal?

I think this could be interpreted differently (friend vs. drinking buddy) based on personal and cultural differences, but I think we can all agree drinking buddy does not equal romantic partner.  Since we have a WoB that Shallan herself is under all of her masks (and thus Veil really equals Shallan), this means Adolin is treating Shallan as not a romantic partner in some contexts, which points to him reinforcing her fragmentation (unintentional though it may be.)

[wotbibliophile]

6 hours ago, Greywatch said:

One, actually Shallan has known both of them for the same amount of time - she met Kaladin first, even.

I specifically said in Shallan's company. You really think it is realistic to compare Adolin, Shallan's betrothed (who has spent a lot of time with Shallan because they are courting) and Kaladin, Shallan's crush (who she is specifically avoiding because she has feelings for him) and say they should have an equal understanding of Shallan? I certainly think Adolin should have a far superior understanding of Shallan than Kaladin. He doesn't. Up until Shallan tells Adolin about pretending to be other people on Honor's Path, Kaladin had a far superior understanding of Shallan than Adolin. Finally, after Honor's Path, Adolin knows something about Shallan that Kaladin does not. It might be said that Adolin understands Shallan better than Kaladin after Honor's Path. (I am not sure I agree.) I still think it is a problem that Kaladin (a man Shallan has spent almost no time with) knows things about her that her husband (who she has been courting for months) does not.

 

As far as Shallan being an unreliable narrator. I am wavering between yes Sanderson would show her problems in the text and no he still might hide it. Like with the picture Shallan drew. She had no memory of drawing it and neither did Pattern (I find it significant that Pattern lost track of time. Before when Shallan blacked out, Pattern was still aware.) So something significant (the drawing) happened and was hidden from us the reader until Sanderson chose to show Shallan's discovery of it. That could happen with Pattern and Shallan's bond. Something could happen or there could be warning signs and we the reader won't know until Sanderson chooses to show Shallan's discovery of it. It could be like a flashback kind of thing.

[BraidedRose]

On how much time Shallan and Kaladin have spent together, I want to dive into this a bit from a slightly different angle. I think it is really hard to argue that Shalladin have spent as much meaningful time together (on screen or off) as Shadolin have. Yes, both pairs have known each other for about the same length of time, but that is pretty meaningless. We can also argue about whether it makes sense that Shalladin have interacted less or not, but to me that kind of misses the point. Brandon could have chosen to have Shalladin interact more in OB, but he didn't. I think that was clearly deliberate, mainly because we have plenty of reason to believe that Brandon is not haphazard with his choices and even further, he specifically hinted at interactions that he chose not to show. You could say that he chose not to show them for space but I'm really not buying that. If that was the case, why even mention that Shallan and Kaladin flew together to Thaylen City? Why put Kaladin in one of Shallan's drawings, etc? It doesn't make sense in the context for those to be just random details.

Let's assume Brandon knew he wanted to end this book with Shadolin getting married. A major question that this thread seems to be trying to answer is, how did he want us to feel about that? If he is telling a Shadolin love story I would expect him to want us to feel joyful that they came to an understanding, made a commitment and got a well earned moment of celebratory happiness. If he wanted that, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have an unexplored romantic angle with Kaladin hanging over that moment. So if we think this is what Brandon was going for, I have to assume he felt that one significant conversation between Shalladin in this book was enough to show their incompatibility, and we didn't really need to see any more to know that Kaladin was wrong for Shallan or vice versa (even in the midst of plenty of other moments that show their pull towards each other). I guess some people do read it that way, but there were plenty of opportunities to make that much clearer and really sell Shallan's choice, but those chances were passed over in my view. 

Of course, the other possibility is that he still plans to show a Shalladin love story, in which case it would be hard to show a lot of interactions between Shalladin without that becoming clearer. If he had gone that route and still had the Shadolin wedding, essentially showing Shallan marry Adolin while it was clear she was in love with Kaladin, then I would expect the overwhelming response would have been that she made the wrong choice. Instead we have something more ambiguous. Many people have a lot of doubts about Shadolin's happiness in the future. Others are perhaps cautiously hopeful for them. But probably in most cases there is at least some uneasiness or uncertainty. Honestly, I'm mostly discounting the reactions of those who admittedly hate everything to do with love triangles (or romantic storylines in general). Those readers clearly seem to just be happy that this is "over" and aren't looking any deeper than they have to at that part of the story. 

To sum up, it's no accident that Shalladin didn't interact more in OB. I believe their lack of interaction was deliberate and informs how Brandon wanted us to react to Shadolin's wedding, with doubt rather than certainty that it was the right or wrong choice. 

[Greywatch she/her]

9 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I can't quite get there on Kaladin/Syl's bond fraying being a good metric for which to evaluate the potential of Shallan/Pattern's bond fraying.  Not only are they different spren with very different methods of strengthening their bond (oaths vs. truths), the progression doesn't line up.  To break it down:

• Kal/Syl: Syl's first Radiant dies and she is in hibernation/near death for thousands of years.  When she comes back to the physical realm she is flighty, confused, incoherent, etc.  When Kal starts abandoning his oaths, she starts reverting to this state.  When she is "revived" with Kal's third oath, she doesn't come back up in that incoherent state and have to regain everything - she is normal Syl, or even Syl with greater clarity.
• Shallan/Pattern: We do not see the initial bonding, relationship or abandoning of truths.  We pick up with Pattern after Shallan has started re-saying her truths and Pattern is "revived" (i.e. in line with Kal/Syl post-third oath.)  He is as you say, incoherent, confused, etc., very like Syl was when she first came into the physical realm after thousands of years but not like Syl was when she was revived.

The conclusion to this IMO is either (i) when we first see Pattern in WoR this is his first foray into the physical realm or the first in a long, long time (10 years is not long for a spren) which accounts for his behavior or (ii) Pattern's progression through abandoning oaths/truths and revival is not analogous Syl's.  If you believe Shallan was bonded to another cryptic when she was younger (which some people have posited), then Syl could be a valid comparison.  If not, it doesn't align.

Another point (if you want to use Kal/Syl as an example for Shallan/Pattern) is that Syl's reaction to Kal starting to abandon his oaths is not in line with how we see her when she is revived from that abandonment (i.e. Syl immediately pre-chasms is different from Syl immediately post-third third oath), so I don't think we can say Pattern with his bond being strained needs to be in line with Pattern immediately post-revival (i.e. Pattern in early WoR.)  Of course, maybe it is for Pattern, but if we try and use Syl has any sort of example then it doesn't line up.

(i) It's not about it being his first foray, it's about Shallan repressing her memories nearly killing him. Nothing to do with length of time.

(ii) If Pattern, at the beginning of WoR, is what he looks/acts like when being revived from broken Ideals, it's a safe bet that further broken Ideals will look like it. 

(iii) Take or leave the comparison with Syl; it was a fourth quarter addition for interest - the comparison with Syl is to show a reversion. The reversion doesn't need to look the same for each spren, it's to show that there is a reversion to the beginning state. Kaladin specifically notes, when she's fraying, that she's acting like she did at the beginning. Syl also came back upon a higher level Ideal, very triumphant. Pattern didn't. The difference in revivals makes sense when taken as Kaladin going to the Third level and giving Syl that boost versus Pattern, almost killed after the Fourth, slowly rousing after Shallan essentially starts her Ideals over.

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I liked your analysis of Pattern and found it fun to read, but I think we disagree on a very fundamental point; Pattern is a talker and at the end of OB he is talking less and less often.  In Shallan final viewpoints (I think last four? - when Adolin "sees" her, she chooses Adolin, making the map in Urithiru and prepping for wedding), Pattern says one line (the "this is a good you" line.)  Compared to mid/late-WoR and early OB, that is a lot less talking.  Maybe coincidental because Brandon didn't have the space to fit it in, but that's where you get the bulk of the "Pattern seems to be fading" argument; it's because he's not part of the narrative at the end of OB nearly as much as he had been previously.

For me, the strongest evidence that Pattern's bond with Shallan is fine is that she can Lightweave the world map in Urithiru just fine and also do her Lightweaving/possible Soulcasting trick to create her illusions at the end.  She does not seem to have any issues with drawing in stormlight or her powers.  However, to argue against this, I don't think we can draw much comparison to Kal/Syl (unless we say Pattern was freshly in the physical realm in early WoR.)  It's just tricky to definitively know one way or another.

I don't disagree with any of this, but Starla's point was they they could help each other, and I was pointing out that Brandon has put on the page that their mental health issues were better at times when around one another, i.e. he gave us scenes where Kal's main mental health issue (depression) lessened when around Shallan (feeling lighter) and where Shallan main mental health issue (memory repression) lessened when around Kaladin (telling her secrets).  Maybe this will not be explored further; maybe it will be explored in a future book.  But one can't argue that this dynamic wasn't included in the books.

Pattern is not a talker. He makes noises, hums, buzzes, and makes occasional one line comments. Him entering Shadesmar was the most chatty we've ever seen him. Final moments in Shadesmar into the battle of Thaylen has Pattern and Shallan show the most emotion and concern for each other that we've ever seen. The last four chapters was also stuffed full with an incredible amount of people and Brandon trying to wrap up the entire book. I do not take it as anything other than a side effect of that. Pattern's not the only one who only got a little bit to wrap up. It's pretty in line with his usual amount of talking in WoR and OB - going just by consistency and frequency, it's not out of the ordinary for him.

I didn't say the "lessening" doesn't exist - although I do not see it at all for Shallan's side. She acts and feels exactly the same, even when telling truths, it was one time a whole novel ago. She doesn't note anything of this kind in OB - her anxiety about telling the truth is focused around Adolin, and then solved around Adolin. Kaladin is the one who notes he's ever felt better around Shallan. And even so, I always felt Syl served much the same purpose in Kaladin's life, except I like Syl a lot better. She can tease him without it being condescending. Anyway. It might be picked up later, but Kaladin didn't close the door on that - the implication was just "as friends".

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I agree with you... I think Kaladin would have to have super human perception to get what was going on.  He doesn't get it.  His conversation with Shallan indicates he doesn't get it.  But there's no reason he should have gotten it.  But, we still got our author showing us Shallan pushed past her repression with him (i.e. told him her secrets).  Maybe it's just representative of life; sometimes you share deep things with people and have a connection but in the end the moment means nothing.  Maybe it's a way of showing the reader a lot of potential in a relationship, though.  Given Brandon doesn't seem to be a writer who wastes page space on pointing out "sometimes moments mean nothing", I choose the latter.  (Well, for that and a lot of other reasons which take a 17 page google doc to elaborate, LOL.)

The narrative shows Adolin getting it, whether or not one agrees with the text. Shallan also pushed past it with him, and to me worth so much more because Shallan was specifically afraid of it but did it anyway. Sharing personal things with someone doesn't automatically make them the best match, and really... really doesn't line up with reality. They had a moment of connection, but the chasm scene wasn't perfect, and there was stuff that happened down there that was still unresolved and left alone. The one that jump to my mind first is Shallan's total non-apology for the boots and treating him like a darkeyes, turning it around on him when he brings it up as if he's at fault for being angry and talks in circles until he becomes frustrated and just gives up. That's also in the chasm.

9 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

It almost feels like you are being deliberately obtuse in regards to this, as you fail to acknowledge the extreme social and emotional pressures on both of them to ignore each other. There are many reasons neither of them could interact with each other in a regular in meaningful fashion:

1. They had separate duties and responsibilities that occupied their time, and what little free time she had, Shallan was obligated to spend time with her betrothed, due to expectations from both society and from herself.  I'll need to go back and read through the sections to confirm, but I find it interesting to note that Shallan did very little active pursuit of Adolin herself, it was always Adolin who had to come and find her. She was always happy when he did show up, but I find it strange that there is very little proactiveness on her part during OB in her pursuit of Adolin, unlike her initial pursuit of him during WoR, where she was very much on a mission.  

2. If you are harboring romantic interest in someone who is not your betrothed or significant other, and you are trying to ensure you are meeting the expectations for your current situation, do you a) risk all of that by actively choosing to spend more time with the person who is potentially a threat to your budding relationship and place in Alethi society, or do you b ) pretend that person doesn't exist outside the times where your responsibilities force you to interact with them?  Shallan doesn't want to betray Adolin, and she doesn't want to fail in the commitment that she made with the causal betrothal, so what else is she to do but intentionally ignore Kaladin and where these fledgling feelings she has for him could lead.  Not to mention that before Kaladin even returns, she learns that he was the one who slew her brother on the battlefield.  Not to mention that she was actively chastised by Jasnah for even spending some of her free thoughts thinking about Kaladin. When you feel something is potentially wrong, and other people insinuate to you it is wrong, then yeah, you're going to try to avoid that thing.  This isn't rocket science, you can see this kind of human behavior in your own life.  I know I've seen it in mine.

3. The same goes for Kaladin as it did in my second point about Shallan.  The expectations are there, and have always been there.  I like Shallan, but she is off limits, because she is Adolin's.  When you like someone, and you know you CAN'T HAVE THEM, you don't seek out their company to become best friends.  You avoid them until you can either confront your emotions about them, or get over them entirely.  Unless of course you want to actively seek to disrupt an existing relationship to insert yourself. But again, neither of these characters are that kind of person.  It's one giant game of circling the elephant in the room, looking at the walls, and going about your tasks while pretending its not there.  It's avoidance, and it's a perfectly natural response for human beings in this kind of situation. 

This is fun, because I've now written enough that I can directly quote myself as an answer, because my answer to this is exactly the same thing I've written before:

"They don't pay enough attention to each other, intentionally choosing not to get closer to the other, if only for Adolin's sake, and in my opinion, that choice matters."

Relationships that you feed live. Relationships that you starve die. The reasons why don't matter. I've never cared about the reasons why they choose not to pursue each other because they've chosen not to pursue each other.

8 hours ago, SLNC said:

Exactly this.

And what do we have now? A completed arranged union between a woman, who doesn't know who she wants to be and what she wants to do (no, that ambivalence isn't gone as we have confirmation, that she still will use her masks and only has marginal control over them), torn between duties to her highprince husband and to humanity as a Radiant, and a man, who never really thinks about his wife, but still has an obligation to make it work due to social expectations, still tried to get out, but in the end didn't, because his now wife begged him for help with her ambivalence problems (so she could anchor Shallan to him). Great foundations, great chemistry between them (/s). This union is one of social expectations and necessity. Feelings never factored in. Sexual attractions are not feelings of love, but often get confused.

Regarding Kaladin and Shallan not understanding each other:

I beg to differ, extremely. Kaladin and Shallan spent 1 - one - day together by circumstance and understood more about each other, than Adolin has understood about Shallan during the whole of their courtship. Their respective illnesses are not what defines their character! It is a part of their characterization, yes, but it is not what they really are.

Shallan completely switched her view of Kaladin from perceived hatefulness, to seeing him as a man of passion, dedication and determination, which is spot on. What Kaladin once saw as lighteyed arrogance, he then saw as what Shallan really is. A survivor, that was forced to do terrible things to her own family, but despite her brokenness - she survived.

Regarding Adolin understanding Shallan's mental issues:

He doesn't. Plain and simple. How could he? Not even Shallan herself understands it. Adolin thinks, that she is becoming different persons. Which is just plain wrong. She is still Shallan - there is one WoB a few pages back that confirms that. She has been crafting masks to fix perceived shortcomings of herself, but she lost control over them. And we also know, that she not yet has regained control over them through another WoB.

Thing is, that she only perceives these shortcomings. In reality, she would be perfectly capable of doing these things without Veil and Radiant. It is all in her head.

There is a dichotomy, that @Dreamstorm mentioned a long time ago now:

Adolin is saying the right things and doing the wrong things, because by handling Veil as a different person, he confirms Shallan's own perception of her problem and forces her to hold onto her masks, because he is also making clear, that he isn't interested in anything Veil represents, which are intrinsic parts of Shallan though. Everything Veil did, Shallan also did. Everything Veil will do, Shallan will also do. Her mask doesn't matter, her thoughts on the masks don't matter. Veil isn't different from Shallan. It is all Shallan. Including her feelings for Kaladin, which certainly aren't gone from Veil.

Kaladin, on the other hand, is saying the wrong things, but doing the right things, by dealing with Veil as if she was Shallan too. Because she is.

We are going to keep fundamentally disagreeing about this, because after all this, I do not see that Kaladin has ever seen, interacted with, or recognized that Veil even exists, and the fact that he doesn't know that the alters exists is a big problem for me. I don't see his interactions with Shallan as proof that he treats them all the same, I see it as proof that he interacts with Shallan on a very basic surface level and for whatever reason, is incapable of or isn't interested in digging further to see that there is something wrong. It doesn't feel like he's treating all of her the same; it feels like he can't tell anything's wrong. This goes for everything in the chasms as well. Shallan wasn't even split into alters at that point. 

I do not believe as OB stands that Kaladin and Shallan understand each other. One moment in the past doesn't automatically carry forward, and both of them have changed and evolved since then. 

I know you disagree about Adolin being a real help, so I'll just leave it. I disagree.

4 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

I specifically said in Shallan's company. You really think it is realistic to compare Adolin, Shallan's betrothed (who has spent a lot of time with Shallan because they are courting) and Kaladin, Shallan's crush (who she is specifically avoiding because she has feelings for him) and say they should have an equal understanding of Shallan? I certainly think Adolin should have a far superior understanding of Shallan than Kaladin. He doesn't. Up until Shallan tells Adolin about pretending to be other people on Honor's Path, Kaladin had a far superior understanding of Shallan than Adolin. Finally, after Honor's Path, Adolin knows something about Shallan that Kaladin does not. It might be said that Adolin understands Shallan better than Kaladin after Honor's Path. (I am not sure I agree.) I still think it is a problem that Kaladin (a man Shallan has spent almost no time with) knows things about her that her husband (who she has been courting for months) does not.

As far as Shallan being an unreliable narrator. I am wavering between yes Sanderson would show her problems in the text and no he still might hide it. Like with the picture Shallan drew. She had no memory of drawing it and neither did Pattern (I find it significant that Pattern lost track of time. Before when Shallan blacked out, Pattern was still aware.) So something significant (the drawing) happened and was hidden from us the reader until Sanderson chose to show Shallan's discovery of it. That could happen with Pattern and Shallan's bond. Something could happen or there could be warning signs and we the reader won't know until Sanderson chooses to show Shallan's discovery of it. It could be like a flashback kind of thing.

The entire point of Adolin and Shallan's arc was that they were hiding things from each other, and needed to learn to be honest with each other in order to move their relationship forward. Their arc is different from Kaladin's but again, that doesn't make it inferior. "Understanding" about each other does not equal just knowing things about each other, and someone knowing more facts about someone and their history does not mean they'll be better in a relationship together. It just means Kaladin learned those things first. How about the other way around? Shallan is caught off guard by what happened with Amaram and killing Helaran... because she didn't know it before. If "knowing things about another person" is the best indicator of being in a relationship together, Kaladin and Shallan would be incredibly one-sided. Kaladin trusts Adolin more than Shallan, apparently. Anyway. This whole line of logic rings really false to me. It's not how any relationship I've been in ever works, and no one relationship is more important because someone knows more stuff about me, it's about if they're there for me. Adolin is more there for Shallan, and he's a better fit. 

It could be, but it would be totally new information we get in SA4. In OB, there is zero evidence. It's a guess, and not a terrible one based on what we know about Shallan, but it's not supported by any of her previous povs. I'm not going to treat a guess with the same seriousness that I treat the actual text.

[DeployParachute]

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

Relationships that you feed live. Relationships that you starve die. The reasons why don't matter. I've never cared about the reasons why they choose not to pursue each other because they've chosen not to pursue each other.

Ah. Okay. So the reasons behind peoples choices don't really matter, only the choices themselves. And here I was doing this empathy thing all wrong, trying to understand characters motivations behind the decisions they make as a means of understanding them better, and possibly being able to guess at the kinds of choices they will likely make in a similar situation in the future.  The reasons behind why people do the things they do are irrelevant, after all, the only useful thing we can take from events are actions (choices) themselves. Thanks for the enlightenment.

[Greywatch she/her]

1 hour ago, DeployParachute said:

Ah. Okay. So the reasons behind peoples choices don't really matter, only the choices themselves. And here I was doing this empathy thing all wrong, trying to understand characters motivations behind the decisions they make as a means of understanding them better, and possibly being able to guess at the kinds of choices they will likely make in a similar situation in the future.  The reasons behind why people do the things they do are irrelevant, after all, the only useful thing we can take from events are actions (choices) themselves. Thanks for the enlightenment.

I quoted and re-stated my original post because it feels just as relevant now as it did before. I'm not trying to stifle discussion. It's totally valid to discuss. But I personally don't find there's a deep meaning there. You're entitled to feel otherwise!   

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Greywatch said:

We are going to keep fundamentally disagreeing about this, because after all this, I do not see that Kaladin has ever seen, interacted with, or recognized that Veil even exists, and the fact that he doesn't know that the alters exists is a big problem for me.

That is because the masks (I once called them alters too, but that is not what they are. Brandon clarified that.) don't actually exist as standalone personalities, but are just a figment of Shallan's traumatized mind to fix perceived shortcomings of herself. These shortcomings don't even exist though.

8 hours ago, Greywatch said:

I don't see his interactions with Shallan as proof that he treats them all the same, I see it as proof that he interacts with Shallan on a very basic surface level and for whatever reason, is incapable of or isn't interested in digging further to see that there is something wrong.

 

Same goes for Adolin. For him to even find those "visual cues", Brandon talked about, he outright needed to be told by Shallan, that Veil and Radiant exist. He didn't figure that out himself... Even if you'd like it to be that way.

Likewise, Kaladin didn't dig further, because he wasn't prompted by her behavior to do so. And that is okay, because even when Veil takes over it is still Shallan acting. And for him it isn't out of character, since he already knows her as fearless and bold.

8 hours ago, Greywatch said:

It doesn't feel like he's treating all of her the same; it feels like he can't tell anything's wrong. This goes for everything in the chasms as well. Shallan wasn't even split into alters at that point. 

Because there isn't any thing "wrong" with her behavior. It is Shallan's default behavior. The masks are a figment of her mind. An imagination. They are not real.

Thank you for proving my point though. In the chasms, she wasn't split yes. But still acted like she was all her masks combined. This correlates with Brandon's statement, that Shallan is just perceiving her shortcomings.

Now that we've clarified, that everything is just in Shallan's head. Just a thought process, let us look at how it could change.

You try to change their thinking by providing a different perspective. A lot of psychotherapy works that way (I know, that psychotherapy is a broad topic and there are many individual approaches to it, but I'm just providing one approach). People tell their therapists their stories and how they perceive them and their therapist provides a different perspective, which brings the patient to think about his problems in a different way. That is why talking with friends (essentially acting as a therapist there), when you are in despair or sad helps. They help you find a different perspective on the problem.

Likewise, you don't change their line of thinking, by confirming that line of thinking. Which Adolin is doing. This just cements the problem.

Edited January 27, 2018 by SLNC

[Darvys]

Just in case someone feels like reading too much into the text today, there's this line when they're jumping from the honorspren ship : "She clung to Adolin, but Pattern’s hand was pulled from her grip."  

The kind of random scenes that are most often innocent but you still can't stop yourself from thinking maybe there's something there because of said randomness, or maybe it's just me, didn't find this mentioned after a quick search.

[BraidedRose]

37 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Just in case someone feels like reading too much into the text today, there's this line when they're jumping from the honorspren ship : "She clung to Adolin, but Pattern’s hand was pulled from her grip."  

The kind of random scenes that are most often innocent but you still can't stop yourself from thinking maybe there's something there because of said randomness, or maybe it's just me, didn't find this mentioned after a quick search.

This line has been brought up in the thread before, as possible foreshadowing that Shallan believing her own lies, especially in the context of her identity and her relationship with Adolin, could imperil her bond with Pattern. So for what it’s worth I think many people here don’t think you’re reading too much into the line 

[Ailvara]

I have one question for you guys. If there was no casual in the first place, or even if Adolin's and Kaladin's situations were reversed - ie for some reason Shallan would be engaged to Kaladin from the start and pushed in some ways to stick to it - do you think she would end up with Adolin nevertheless? 

Because, see, what bothers me, is that I think not. We can argue, but I don't see any reason for it to happen. He wouldn't pursue her or catch her interest, there would be no reason for them to interact much either. He wouldn't look after her, not so much at least. It'd be like her and Kaladin, but minus chatting about scientific stuff, connection over brokenness and her gaping at him being awesome. 

So while Adolin certainly worked on the relationship and the casual wouldn't be enough for them to get married, I believe both factors were necessary for the given outcome. Him being a prince and Jasnah's influence wouldn't be enough, but it not only helped, it did co-determine the existence of Adolin and Shallan's relationship. And I do deeply despise that his family and social status were so decisive in all this.

(before you point that out - I don't get into the discussion here whether in the reverse situation Kaladin wouldn't screw it all up, we can speculate but that's beside the point; even if he was never in the picture, I'd still think the same) 

Edited January 27, 2018 by Ailvara

[Greywatch she/her]

5 hours ago, SLNC said:

That is because the masks (I once called them alters too, but that is not what they are. Brandon clarified that.) don't actually exist as standalone personalities, but are just a figment of Shallan's traumatized mind to fix perceived shortcomings of herself. These shortcomings don't even exist though.

Same goes for Adolin. For him to even find those "visual cues", Brandon talked about, he outright needed to be told by Shallan, that Veil and Radiant exist. He didn't figure that out himself... Even if you'd like it to be that way.

Likewise, Kaladin didn't dig further, because he wasn't prompted by her behavior to do so. And that is okay, because even when Veil takes over it is still Shallan acting. And for him it isn't out of character, since he already knows her as fearless and bold.

Because there isn't any thing "wrong" with her behavior. It is Shallan's default behavior. The masks are a figment of her mind. An imagination. They are not real.

Thank you for proving my point though. In the chasms, she wasn't split yes. But still acted like she was all her masks combined. This correlates with Brandon's statement, that Shallan is just perceiving her shortcomings.

Now that we've clarified, that everything is just in Shallan's head. Just a thought process, let us look at how it could change.

You try to change their thinking by providing a different perspective. A lot of psychotherapy works that way (I know, that psychotherapy is a broad topic and there are many individual approaches to it, but I'm just providing one approach). People tell their therapists their stories and how they perceive them and their therapist provides a different perspective, which brings the patient to think about his problems in a different way. That is why talking with friends (essentially acting as a therapist there), when you are in despair or sad helps. They help you find a different perspective on the problem.

Likewise, you don't change their line of thinking, by confirming that line of thinking. Which Adolin is doing. This just cements the problem.

Yeah, I'm sorry. I disagree with all of it. To me, it just seems like one way to interpret what happened in OB, but it doesn't ring true for what I read in the book, and I think we've repeated ourselves to each other long enough now. I'm going to stop here. Have fun!

[GarrethGrey]

Oh I absolutely don't think they'd end up together, I've always seen Adolin as more in the way of Shallan and Kaladin post-chasms. But there is just no way Shallan splits from Adolin once the causal was in place, he's handsome, nice and genuine, oh and a prince, more than she ever hoped for growing up knowing she'd eventually be married off to someone of her father's choosing. Then you have the fact she needed his family's standing in order to save hers (not when they got married, but by then it was far too late to back out) Jasnah reprimanding her for wandering eyes, and her basically not really being able to back out even if she gave herself that choice, that wasn't an option. She was too indebted to the Kholins, particularly Jasnah, and she had gotten close to Navani. Sure, she made the decision to marry Adolin and pass on Kaladin, but circumstances essentially forced that decision, which wasn't even really a decision (she thought about it for all of 15 seconds before she realised Adolin "knows" her, and then repressed her feelings about Kaladin). She felt she needed to honor the causal, and well Adolin is a great guy and super handsome, so things could be worse right? So she clings to him and basically starts chopping off pieces of herself she doesn't think Adolin would like, or things she doesn't feel she should have as a prim, proper, lighteyed Alethi woman, betrothed to an Alethi prince. And then these things remanifest in Veil, who she claims is "not her", even though we know it is her, underneath that mask of Veil, its Shallan, hiding and lying to herself.

But I digress, if you take out the causal, and give both Kaladin and Adolin a fair playing field (Adolin isn't given a 9 second head start in a 100 meter dash by automatically being betrothed to her) I can almost guarantee 100% it's Kaladin in the end. Even with her handsome prince who's everything she could have ever wanted, she still started falling for Kaladin, while only having limited interactions with him. Does she start falling for Adolin if she's in a relationship with Kaladin first? I just don't see anything in the text that would imply she would, they'd become pretty good friends, she would appreciate his sculpted appearance, but nothing deeper would develop, she would not be drawn to him, like she is with Kaladin.

[Ailvara]

54 minutes ago, GarrethGrey said:

if you take out the causal, and give both Kaladin and Adolin a fair playing field (Adolin isn't given a 9 second head start in a 100 meter dash by automatically being betrothed to her) I can almost guarantee 100% it's Kaladin in the end

It's all spot-on, but this bit is just the best. 

Basically, in OB Adolin gets a happy romantic ending at the expense of Kaladin, largely because he's a privileged guy from an influential family. It'd be bad in the best circumstances, but in the light of Kaladin's overall storyline... This is a slap in the face. Even if Kaladin doesn't see it this way, because he is too busy persuading himself he'd not be worth it anyway, it's still there. 

[Vissy]

And so we come full circle to realize that Adolin & Shallan are classist AF!

[Guest]

3 hours ago, GarrethGrey said:

But I digress, if you take out the causal, and give both Kaladin and Adolin a fair playing field (Adolin isn't given a 9 second head start in a 100 meter dash by automatically being betrothed to her) I can almost guarantee 100% it's Kaladin in the end. Even with her handsome prince who's everything she could have ever wanted, she still started falling for Kaladin, while only having limited interactions with him. Does she start falling for Adolin if she's in a relationship with Kaladin first? I just don't see anything in the text that would imply she would, they'd become pretty good friends, she would appreciate his sculpted appearance, but nothing deeper would develop, she would not be drawn to him, like she is with Kaladin.

I think, that is the kicker here. For Adolin and Shallan to form even some kind of relationship, they had to be shoved together through a causal and even then, they landed in a pretty superficial relationship based on sexual attraction, while she is naturally drawn to Kaladin, because of his underlying, not superficial, character (her first superficial perception of his hatefulness turns into her perceiving his underlying passion for what he does and determination) and not just looks. And Kaladin admires her for her strength, that she is a survivor, not just looks. In fact, they both only start to feel sexual attraction to each other, after they found out they liked their respective character traits.

But yes, Adolin, or more the causal, is in between them. Adolin tries to get out though, but by then Shallan already made the choice, that "Adolin knows me". While it is a choice, it is both heavily influenced by her desire to keep up her end of the bargain, but even more, because of necessity. She needed to do this, because otherwise she would have probably lost her inner battle against Veil and Radiant. Was it a choice of love though? No. Definitely not.

Edited January 27, 2018 by SLNC

[wotbibliophile]

20 hours ago, Greywatch said:

The entire point of Adolin and Shallan's arc was that they were hiding things from each other, and needed to learn to be honest with each other in order to move their relationship forward. Their arc is different from Kaladin's but again, that doesn't make it inferior. "Understanding" about each other does not equal just knowing things about each other, and someone knowing more facts about someone and their history does not mean they'll be better in a relationship together. It just means Kaladin learned those things first. How about the other way around? Shallan is caught off guard by what happened with Amaram and killing Helaran... because she didn't know it before. If "knowing things about another person" is the best indicator of being in a relationship together, Kaladin and Shallan would be incredibly one-sided. Kaladin trusts Adolin more than Shallan, apparently. Anyway. This whole line of logic rings really false to me. It's not how any relationship I've been in ever works, and no one relationship is more important because someone knows more stuff about me, it's about if they're there for me. Adolin is more there for Shallan, and he's a better fit. 

I really appreciate this perspective. I do think Adolin and Shallan moved their relationship forward. It was not enough for me to think they should get married. I do not think Adolin understands Shallan. That is my big problem with their relationship. It is not Adolin's fault. It is Shallan's fault. She is deliberately hiding things from him. I think you mentioned that Adolin noticed there was something wrong or noticed she was putting up fronts, but Kaladin didn't. Like @SLNC said: Adolin did not (with his keen observation skills) realize that Shallan was pretending to be other people. She flat out told him. (This is why I agree they made progress in their relationship. Finally, Shallan was honest with him). Adolin and Kaladin failed to notice Shallan had a problem. I believe they failed because Shallan was hiding her problem. She is a great liar. It is not Adolin or Kaladin's fault that they fall for her lies. The arc you see about honesty and understanding does not work for me because Adolin is the one who is honest and Shallan is the one who is understanding. Shallan is (and will probably always be) a liar and she is hiding herself from Adolin.

For example,

20 hours ago, Greywatch said:

I've never cared about the reasons why they choose not to pursue each other because they've chosen not to pursue each other.

 

I think it does matter if Shallan has feelings for Kaladin. Do you believe she has feelings for Kaladin? If you do, then you know she outright lied to Adolin about this. She said she saw him as art and had no interest in getting naked with him. I think this is a lie. I think Shallan manipulated Adolin into marrying her. She would have said anything to get Adolin to marry her (including lie). Then there is the weird assertion that Veil has feelings for Kaladin. I think this is twisted. Veil does not exist except in Shallan's imagination. Is it okay that Veil is still around and presumably still interested in getting naked with Kaladin all while Shallan is "happily" married?

 

On 1/25/2018 at 6:02 PM, Starla said:

I didn’t get the sense that that one kiss was it. There was this sentence regarding Tarah's beauty... "The more you saw of it— the more you discovered of its natural facets— the more you loved it.” I suppose that could be interpreted a number of ways, and it’s up to our imagination. 

Awesome. I think you are right. This can be interpreted more than one way.

 

ETA:

7 hours ago, Ailvara said:

I have one question for you guys. If there was no casual in the first place, or even if Adolin's and Kaladin's situations were reversed - ie for some reason Shallan would be engaged to Kaladin from the start and pushed in some ways to stick to it - do you think she would end up with Adolin nevertheless? 

 

I don't know. Adolin is a great guy. Adolin and Shallan could work if Shallan was honest with him. I do not think Adolin and Shallan work now. Shallan does not seem to trust Adolin.

Edited January 27, 2018 by wotbibliophile

[Greywatch she/her]

32 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

I really appreciate this perspective. I do think Adolin and Shallan moved their relationship forward. It was not enough for me to think they should get married. I do not think Adolin understands Shallan. That is my big problem with their relationship. It is not Adolin's fault. It is Shallan's fault. She is deliberately hiding things from him. I think you mentioned that Adolin noticed there was something wrong or noticed she was putting up fronts, but Kaladin didn't. Like @SLNC said: Adolin did not (with his keen observation skills) realize that Shallan was pretending to be other people. She flat out told him. (This is why I agree they made progress in their relationship. Finally, Shallan was honest with him). Adolin and Kaladin failed to notice Shallan had a problem. I believe they failed because Shallan was hiding her problem. She is a great liar. It is not Adolin or Kaladin's fault that they fall for her lies. The arc you see about honesty and understanding does not work for me because Adolin is the one who is honest and Shallan is the one who is understanding. Shallan is (and will probably always be) a liar and she is hiding herself from Adolin.

I think it does matter if Shallan has feelings for Kaladin. Do you believe she has feelings for Kaladin? If you do, then you know she outright lied to Adolin about this. She said she saw him as art and had no interest in getting naked with him. I think this is a lie. I think Shallan manipulated Adolin into marrying her. She would have said anything to get Adolin to marry her (including lie). Then there is the weird assertion that Veil has feelings for Kaladin. I think this is twisted. Veil does not exist except in Shallan's imagination. Is it okay that Veil is still around and presumably still interested in getting naked with Kaladin all while Shallan is "happily" married?

That is a take I can't agree with, but I've said all I wanted to already so I think I'm going to leave this here. Have fun!

[GoddessIMHO]

@Greywatch - thank you for the Pattern review. I had forgotten that final "this is a good you". She is better and progressing.  No one thinks she is healthy but better is in the right direction.

Of course she and Adolin will have issues with the marriage.  What marriage doesn't involve major changes and occasional blow ups in life. And their marriage is happening in the midst of a world war. And Adolin's father is about to drop an emotional bomb shell. The same father who tried to carve Adolin into the "perfect" Alethi soldier prince to mitigate his own disastrous failure in that regard. Granted that Dalinar was being manipulated by Odium at the time . 

Then we have the last minute appearance of Shallan’s brothers. There is still more to their story and Halloran's that we have yet to learn. And Shallan says she needs to tell Adolin about the Ghostbloods. 

Finally, there is Kaladin.  Some people claim his arc was disappointing but I see it as the prelude to his greatest understanding.  He has to understand that the world isn't all black and white.  The strict oaths of a junior Windrunner are about to merge into oaths that require value judgments. When you can't save everyone, how do you decide who to save? An oath that allows no choice is easy to follow even if you don't like it.  Once you have to make a choice,  you also have the responsibility.  There is no get out of jail free card saying "I was only following orders".

[maxal she/her]

4 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

 I think you mentioned that Adolin noticed there was something wrong or noticed she was putting up fronts, but Kaladin didn't. Like @SLNC said: Adolin did not (with his keen observation skills) realize that Shallan was pretending to be other people. She flat out told him.

I disagree with this statement.

Oathbringer, p760

Still, he held to her hand. "What do you do out there, Shallan? Who do you become?"

He knows. Adolin knows. He knew for a while, but he was patient enough to wait until Shallan flat out tells him. I think it is terribly unfair to state Adolin failed to noticed Shallan's issues when the text at hand suggests he did. Brandon also confirmed Adolin has learned to read the cues Shallan exhibits when she wears one of her masks. Hence, saying Adolin doesn't know Shallan pretends to be other people doesn't strike me as the right interpretation.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, maxal said:

Oathbringer, p760

Still, he held to her hand. "What do you do out there, Shallan? Who do you become?"

He knows. Adolin knows. He knew for a while, but he was patient enough to wait until Shallan flat out tells him. I think it is terribly unfair to state Adolin failed to noticed Shallan's issues when the text at hand suggests he did. Brandon also confirmed Adolin has learned to read the cues Shallan exhibits when she wears one of her masks. Hence, saying Adolin doesn't know Shallan pretends to be other people doesn't strike me as the right interpretation.

What?

He knows that she is gone for long stretches of time. He also knows that she can craft disguises through Lightweaving.

Atleast quote what Shallan says too: "I need to steal some food first to pay them [the cult]"

She tells him, that she needs to steal food for their mission. He then counts 2 and 2 together. It's not rocket science. He just asks about what she is doing out there and who her disguise is.

Yes, he learned "visual cues" after she told him, that there was something wrong and about the existence of Veil and Radiant. Nothing behavioral.

If Adolin was that perceptive and knew all along , as you are suggesting. Why does he never think about it? Why does he never think that somethings wrong? We have so many PoVs of him and he never thinks, that there is anything wrong. Only after Shallan told him.

This has nothing to do with him being considerate or patient. Only if you pull it out of context.

Edited January 28, 2018 by SLNC