[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Alderant]

15 minutes ago, Rainier said:

You activated my trap card! Seriously this is one of the least convincing arguments for continuing the marriage because one thing we absolutely know is that Alethi propriety is breaking down in the face of the Desolations. Another thing we absolutely know is that Lightweavers do not swear oaths, they progress to higher levels of self-awareness. These two things together means that if Shallan has to divorce Adolin to save Pattern, nobody (among our main characters) will think twice. Shallan already has a built-in out waiting for her, she just has to be self-aware enough to use it.

I've said it before elsewhere, but divorce is very much on the table, and neither Alethi propriety nor the oaths of the Nahel bond are good arguments against it. If anything we should expect Shallan to break oaths if for no other reason than to remind us that her order is not an order of oaths, but of truths. 

I'm with @Greywatch on this one. I don't know that divorce is necessarily on the table for Shallan--she clings too desperately to Adolin as the "life she wants" to jeopardize that, I think.

[analyticaposteriori]

6 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

And yet Shallan still took the marriage oaths and treated them seriously, and knows that everybody in her life takes oaths seriously and she'd definitely break the oaths holding her in good standing with people she cares about just to show us that she can. Definitely would fly well with Kaladin who himself is extremely close to the oath-keeping side of the Radiants. It would damage her relationships and personal/family reputation but I'm sure it's fine.

She takes these oaths while still living in massive self-denial

As for the rest of the post... surely Shallan would never take a self-destructive course of action /s

I agree with @Rainier - by Shallan's very nature the truths will be far more important to her character arc than oaths. Every character (Kaladin, Dalinar, Szeth too) being an "oaths person" would be pretty boring. And even oaths characters like Kaladin are learning that the world is not black and white.

[Alderant]

1 minute ago, analyticaposteriori said:

I agree with @Rainier - by Shallan's very nature the truths will be far more important to her character arc than oaths. Every character (Kaladin, Dalinar, Szeth too) being an "oaths person" would be pretty boring. And even oaths characters like Kaladin are learning that the world is not black and white.

Believe it or not, I agree with you too. It's not that I think Shallan takes her oaths seriously, but rather I believe that she is too desperate to cling to what she has to risk jeopardizing her new marriage over it. We haven't even seen her accept her last Truth about her family, but that Truth, I think, would stand in the way of the possibility of divorce. Adolin is now part of her family.

As Greywatch said, Shallan breaking her oath would sour not just her relationship with Adolin (which she desperately clings to), but probably the rest of the main cast as well, since many of them hold to their word and believe others should as well.

And yes, while her Truths are more important to her spren than oaths are, I don't think Shallan is the type of person to place so little value on a promise. I do, however, think she jumped into the marriage a little too hastily, and that that was an act of desperation, rather than careful consideration of her own feelings and analysis of her true desires.

[analyticaposteriori]

Just now, Alderant said:

Believe it or not, I agree with you too. It's not that I think Shallan takes her oaths seriously, but rather I believe that she is too desperate to cling to what she has to risk jeopardizing her new marriage over it. We haven't even seen her accept her last Truth about her family, but that Truth, I think, would stand in the way of the possibility of divorce. Adolin is now part of her family.

As Greywatch said, Shallan breaking her oath would sour not just her relationship with Adolin (which she desperately clings to), but probably the rest of the main cast as well, since many of them hold to their word and believe others should as well.

And yes, while her Truths are more important to her spren than oaths are, I don't think Shallan is the type of person to place so little value on a promise. I do, however, think she jumped into the marriage a little too hastily, and that that was an act of desperation, rather than careful consideration of her own feelings and analysis of her true desires.

Well, I don't expect her to remain this clingy, meek self for the rest of the series. That would be quite disappointing as her character has so much more potentional.

[Dreamstorm]

I've said it in another thread, but I think divorce is permissible in Vorinism, and we've actually seen an example of how this would work.  First, the marriage oaths are similar to the liege lord oaths.  Bolded parts are what I consider the "oath" being said here.

Marriage oath:

Quote

Navani: "I swear it to him, and to you, and any who care to listen.  Dalinar Kholin is mine, and I am his."

Dalinar: "I swear it likewise.  Navani Kholin is mine, and I am hers.  I love her."

OB, Ch. 4, Oaths

Liege lord oath:

Quote

"Dalinar Kholin," Elhokar said in a loud voice, "I swear to you now.  There are princes and highprinces.  Why not kings and highkings?  I give you an oath, immutable and witnessed, that I accept you as my monarch.  As Alethkar is to me, I am to you."

OB, Ch. 12, Negotiations

Second, we were told how one can can annul a liege lord oath (see quote below about discussion of Amaram seceding from Sadeas.)  I don't know why marriage would be different - we have WoB that marriage is about oaths, so I don't know why annulling it would be different from any other oath of a similar nature.

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“Well, you won’t be dueling him,” Dalinar said, chuckling. He sat down on the couch, Brightness Navani settling in beside him, hand fondly on his knee. “We might have him on our side. I’ve been speaking to Highlord Amaram . . .”

“You think you can get him to secede?” the king asked.

“Is that possible?” Kaladin asked, surprised.

The lighteyes turned to him. Navani blinked, as if noticing him for the first time.

“Yes, it is possible,” Dalinar said. “Most of the territory that Amaram oversees would remain with Sadeas, but he could bring his personal land to my princedom—along with his Shards. Usually it requires a land trade with a princedom bordering the one a highlord wishes to join.”

“It hasn’t happened in over a decade,” Adolin said, shaking his head.

WoR, Ch. 22, Lights in the Storm

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Vorin culture is concerned with oaths. Extra-marital sexuality is strictly forbidden, but homosexuality is regarded the same by most as heterosexual relationships. If the proper oaths are spoken, then the Almighty approves. (This usually means marriage, but there are certain official forms of other relationships that would allow it also.)

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116-general-reddit-2017/#e1443

So, I think Brandon could very easily have Adolin and Shallan divorce without oath-breaking and have it fit within the cannon surrounding oaths.  (Assumptions at play in this idea: Navani/Dalinar oaths were traditional (my thinking is we know Navani is quite religious, so I imagine even though they had a non-Vorin officiant, she would want to use traditional oaths), highking oath Elhokar gave is traditional liege lord oath, and marriage oaths do not have some extra-special implications which would make them treated differently.)

But since I'm consolidating all the stuff on this into one post (was in a couple in the other thread), I think the main argument for the reason Shallan and Adolin will not get divorced is not that divorce is impossible in-world, but that Brandon would never do it.  I think a lot of this is ascribed to his religious views on the sanctity of marriage.  We won't know for sure unless he tells us his view (or unless he shows a divorce), but the fact he put a gay couple in his books shows some willingness to portray situations in his books which would not be supported by his religious views.  In fact, homosexual behavior leads to excommunication in the LDS church whereas divorce, while frowned upon, is allowed.  From what I can find, the LDS church itself reports its divorce rate at 6% whereas others say it's more like 10%.  Far below the national average, but the point is it's still possible to be a practicing Mormon and get divorced.  If you openly engage in homosexual behavior, however, you become apostate (i.e. considered to have renounced your faith.)  (Side note - this is actually a recent change (fall 2015 ostensibly in reaction to to the Supreme Court decision on gay marriage - previously there used to be a "turning the blind eye" approach), and below is a link to an interesting Atlantic article on how it affected existing gay Mormon couples.  I have wondered if the real-life Drehy (who is married to a man) is Mormon and how this has affected him.)  So based on Brandon's religious views, portraying an openly gay couple is more radical than portraying a divorce.  Of course, Drehy is a side character so it's easy for those offended to "edit" that out without touching the main plotline, whereas a divorce of Shallan and Adolin would be impossible to ignore.

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2016/03/lgbt-mormons/475035/

[DeployParachute]

7 hours ago, tabitreader said:

Kaladin doesn't love her, she reminded him of the feeling Tien gave him which took the weight of the world he felt. Not romantic love, platonic.

There is so much textual support and word from the author against this statement that it makes me wonder if you a) didn't read certain parts of WoR or OB b ) have trouble with reading comprehension , or c) are trolling.  And I honestly can't tell which...but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you missed the key passages in the books that refute your statement, and refer you to the numerous posts in this thread that articulate why your statement is factually wrong.

4 hours ago, Isilel said:

Yes. That's how it is with investiture - it is very difficult to completely destroy it. Splintered Shards can be reconstituted too and I doubt that you'd be up an arms about the fact that Honor isn't truly gone and most likely will be brought back .

Let the hate flow through you, young Jedi ! Why shouldn't it be an accomplished swordsman, who has a particularly close bond to his shardblade and who has been under the influence of the principles from the "Way of Kings" and slowly aligning with the Radiant ideals for years? Who else is there? Kal refused to have anything to do with dead shardblades and Dalinar's evolution necessitated him giving up his. There are hints that yes, it could have been him, but the Stormfather is a jealous spren and Dalinar also needed to give up swords in order to learn to solve things by other means. That was, in part, why he didn't bond Jezrien's Honorblade either, much as as this, and it's "sudden, but inevitable" theft frustrated me at the time.  There are also hints that Oathbringer will be revived as well - Dalinar already wants to make sure that it ends up "in good hands". Which, as a complete aside, will be Taln's, IMHO.

I also disagree that a character has to be a tragic drama-queen to be enjoyable. Personally, I find it refreshing that a character that would normally be killed early in an epic fantasy novel so that an all-too-common drama-laden "unlikely hero" stereotype is forced to step up, can instead be a continuing character in his own right. Nor did I find Adolin's character development lacking or devoid of challenges in WoK and WoR (except that we _really_ should have seen his reaction to Shallan's "death" when that bridge dropped).

1. Yeah, I am familiar with cosmere principles such as investiture and realmatics.  What you fail to distinguish is that while the underlying POWER cannot be destroyed, any personalities or individuals holding that power can be, and any individuals or personalities that are made up of splinters of that power can be.  For example, there are ways for Syl to be destroyed, and for the power that made her up to not ever be able to be reconstituted into the character, individual, person that we know of as Sylphrena.  So I'll concede, that perhaps it was never Brandon's intent to communicate that the "deadeye spren" were gone for good, and we got to see that in OB because they still maintained a form in the cognitive and physical world.  Fair enough.  I still argue that the many readers emotional reaction concerning the recreance is diminished by these revelations.  

2. In addition, now that we know that revival of dead spren is possible and likely to happen, as readers, most of us will probably feel it is morally imperative for the narrative to spend time to recover and save all the deadeye spren possible, and that has the potential to be a major diversion of page time into this plot point.  So either this item is going to develop into a VERY BIG DEAL for the remainder of the SA narrative and has fallen on a secondary character to drive the progression of that narrative, or it is a fun side plot that has major repercussions that are not going to be explored by the author.  If it is the former, then BS should really give Adolin his due, and turn him into a deeper, and more interesting character, instead of playing at the boundaries of Adolin's plot involvement and restricting his page time.  If it is the latter, then I think it is a lapse in writing judgement.

3. I have never argued, nor have I seen it argued, that Adolin needs to be a "tragic drama queen" in order to be an interesting character.  To be an interesting and well developed main character, Adolin needs to have flaws that have meaningful impact to his personality, he needs to be proactive, and he needs to have struggles that allow him to have GROWTH.  These challenges in WoK and WoR that you claim exist, can you list some in which Adolin actually failed?  Or it had lasting consequences or repercussions to his relationships, his circumstances, how he approaches decisions.  In your opinion, is there anything that Adolin can't do?  Until BS starts deigning to give Adolin more of these items that he explores with his mains, then my reaction to Adolin is thus: "You are neither cold nor hot.  So because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth!" - William Cutting, Gangs of New York

[Vissy]

Seems like a pretty scheisse world where a divorce (e.g breaking an oath) literally means that you're a shitty person, and the universe says so. I don't exactly believe that that's the kind of universe Sanderson wants to write. 

Edited January 24, 2018 by Vissy

[analyticaposteriori]

5 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Seems like a pretty scheisse world where a divorce (e.g breaking an oath) literally means that you're a shitty person, and the universe says so. I don't exactly believe that that's the kind of universe Sanderson wants to write. 

Agreed. Quite frankly if Alethi really held to oaths in such ridiculously absolute manner the society simply could not practically function.

[Alderant]

6 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I've said it in another thread, but I think divorce is permissible in Vorinism, and we've actually seen an example of how this would work.  First, the marriage oaths are similar to the liege lord oaths.  Bolded parts are what I consider the "oath" being said here.

Marriage oath:

Quote

Navani: "I swear it to him, and to you, and any who care to listen.  Dalinar Kholin is mine, and I am his."

Dalinar: "I swear it likewise.  Navani Kholin is mine, and I am hers.  I love her."

OB, Ch. 4, Oaths

I would like to point out that Navani and Dalinar did not have a traditional Vorin wedding, so using their marriage as indicative of Vorin marriage oaths is probably not the strongest foundation for your argument. That said, while divorce might be permissible to the Vorin church, I don't know if divorce would be permissible to the Stormfather, who seems to view oaths as eternally binding.

But we're not discussing Navani and Dalinar, here, we're discussing the idea that Shallan and Adolin would divorce because Shallan's heart is in a different place. I don't want to see that. I would rather see her struggle to keep her marriage vows and have something happen to Adolin, than for her to decide that "Whoops, I made the wrong choice. Bye Adolin!" That would drive me bonkers.

5 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Seems like a pretty damnation shitty world where a divorce (e.g breaking an oath) literally means that you're a shitty person, and the universe says so. I don't exactly believe that that's the kind of universe Sanderson wants to write.

2 minutes ago, analyticaposteriori said:

Agreed. Quite frankly if Alethi really held to oaths in such ridiculously absolute manner the society simply could not practically function.

Some people actually feel that way, though I agree with you that I doubt Brandon would write such a universe where that's generally permissible. However, the real concern of breaking an oath here is not in the actual divorce--its the implied infidelity prior to the divorce. That is breaking an oath, and that's one that many people have a strong reaction to, both in the Cosmere and in our world.

 

[BraidedRose]

Quote

7 hours ago, tabitreader said:

Kaladin doesn't love her, she reminded him of the feeling Tien gave him which took the weight of the world he felt. Not romantic love, platonic.

 

So this has of course been discussed before but this scene was actually the part of the ending of this arc in OB that bothered me the most (if we take it at face value). If we are supposed to believe that Kaladin actually has no romantic feelings for Shallan, how convenient for everyone, but from a narrative standpoint how boring and meaningless. I can accept the perspective that triangles just can't be done well (although I don't agree), but if that is Brandon's opinion then why would he even attempt one? Having Kaladin say this and mean it would be like hanging a neon sign saying, don't worry this wasn't actually a triangle (all preceding evidence to the contrary), so now we can all brush our hands and move on. If you are going to do a triangle well then there needs to be stakes for all three parties involved. Kaladin having no romantic feelings would mean he should never have been involved in that storyline at all. But, I don't take the scene at face value. I believe based on what we know about Kaladin it makes far more sense that he perceives that Shallan and Adolin are happy and because he cares about both of them he is stepping back and choosing to look at it from a perspective that will be less painful. Personally I hope that we see that it is difficult for him to do in the next book. Regardless of what happens between Shallan and Adolin in the future, if it turns out that Kaladin never cared then I will always see that as very poor writing. 

As for Shallan's oaths, for me personally, the most relevant point is that if the Shallan who made the oaths is not her full self because she has pushed more than half of herself into other personas, then the oaths are not really valid in the first place if she re-integrates. If Shallan finally accepts her full true self, as Wit sees her, and integrates the personas then she may question everything she did in her broken state. And if it turns out that her marriage is not still the right choice then ending it would be a perfectly valid decision. 

[Alderant]

3 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

So this has of course been discussed before but this scene was actually the part of the ending of this arc in OB that bothered me the most (if we take it at face value). If we are supposed to believe that Kaladin actually has no romantic feelings for Shallan, how convenient for everyone, but from a narrative standpoint how boring and meaningless. I can accept the perspective that triangles just can't be done well (although I don't agree), but if that is Brandon's opinion then why would he even attempt one? Having Kaladin say this and mean it would be like hanging a neon sign saying, don't worry this wasn't actually a triangle (all preceding evidence to the contrary), so now we can all brush our hands and move on. If you are going to do a triangle well then there needs to be stakes for all three parties involved. Kaladin having no romantic feelings would mean he should never have been involved in that storyline at all. But, I don't take the scene at face value. I believe based on what we know about Kaladin it makes far more sense that he perceives that Shallan and Adolin are happy and because he cares about both of them he is stepping back and choosing to look at it from a perspective that will be less painful. Personally I hope that we see that it is difficult for him to do in the next book. Regardless of what happens between Shallan and Adolin in the future, if it turns out that Kaladin never cared then I will always see that as very poor writing.

I agree with everything you said in this paragraph. The way I read it was that Kaladin was A) discouraged by his inabilities in Oathbringer, B ) resigning to the fact that Shallan chose Adolin, which was the "way it should be", C) repressing his feelings as he'd been doing since the very end of WoR, and D) beating himself up and telling himself he didn't deserve to be happy, that he was flawed and didn't deserve her. Which is a startling parallel to Shallan's emotional struggle at the end of the book, where she is telling herself that she does deserve to be happy.

6 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

As for Shallan's oaths, for me personally, the most relevant point is that if the Shallan who made the oaths is not her full self because she has pushed more than half of herself into other personas, then the oaths are not really valid in the first place if she re-integrates. If Shallan finally accepts her full true self, as Wit sees her, and integrates the personas then she may question everything she did in her broken state. And if it turns out that her marriage is not still the right choice then ending it would be a perfectly valid decision.

I don't agree with this one. I think this is dangerous ground for a character to walk on, and if Shallan were to re-integrate, I would want her to decide to stick it out because even if half of her didn't want to do it, she still made the choice. It wasn't some external force acting on her and forcing her to make that choice--some part of her did want to make that choice and she did. As I said above, I'd rather see her struggle to maintain her marriage than peace out. It would make for a better story and better character development.

[GarrethGrey]

I think the the idea behind the divorce stems from the idea that Shallan married Adolin for the wrong reasons. And she's still lying to herself and ignoring aspects of herself she doesn't think she she should have or want and hiding behind masks. Eventually she's going to have to confront herself and these truths she's been hiding/locked away, it would make sense for some of those truths to have an effect on her marriage and how she feels about it. As others have said, Shallan's order of Radiants is pretty much the only order that will not care about broken oaths, especially when said oaths are broken in the pursuit of truths, and a higher fuctioning form or self awareness.

I agree that Brandon writing a divorce for one of his main characters doesn't seem super likely, but there is reason to believe it could happen just from what we know of Shallan and her order. Also, Dalinar set a precedent for breaking so called Alethi propriety and laws when he not only married Navani, but had the Stormfather do it. There is a way to write it where it makes sense, and it wouldnt destroy any of Shallans relationships. And tbh, with the way Adolin has been written, it probably wouldn't even effect him that much. 

@Alderant I don't think anyone is thinking or implying that there would be infidelity before she ends her marriage, that would be awful and would ruin both Shallan and Kaladins characters (not to mention Kal would never do that). It's perfectly possible and quite normal for her to realize she married the wrong person/got married for the wrong reasons, without a need for infidelity. I also don't really agree with "sticking out" a marriage even if you realize its not what you want and it was a choice made while you weren't mentally stable. I agree people should work at maintaining their marriages and not just give up, but Shallan and Adolins is a unique case to say the least.

[Vissy]

I don't know if infidelity would break either Shallan's or Kaladin's characters. They are both very passionate people, I could see them making mistakes like that. In my opinion it could potentially make both of them more interesting and layered characters. There's nothing sacred in writing, after all, the boundaries exist for you to break them and break them in an enjoyable fashion. I'm basically open to all developments at this point, my outlook has always been "if it's done well, I like it" rather than "if they did X, I like it".

[BraidedRose]

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2 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I don't agree with this one. I think this is dangerous ground for a character to walk on, and if Shallan were to re-integrate, I would want her to decide to stick it out because even if half of her didn't want to do it, she still made the choice. It wasn't some external force acting on her and forcing her to make that choice--some part of her did want to make that choice and she did. As I said above, I'd rather see her struggle to maintain her marriage than peace out. It would make for a better story and better character development.

 

I can certainly respect a difference of opinion on this point. And I'm not saying Shallan necessarily will decide not to stick it out in the scenario we are imagining. She might decide she does love Adolin. But if she feels she does not, it is hard for me to accept that sticking it out is the only valid choice. True, she isn't under an outside influence as far as we know but she does seem to be in an altered mental state. If a person who was severely depressed decided to get married to someone who they felt held them together and later they got treatment and realized they didn't love that person or the marriage wasn't right, divorce would seem justified. 

Also, on a related point, while I mainly put the responsibility for making a decision at the wrong time on Shallan, Adolin does bear some responsibility here too. Yes, he tried to get out of the betrothal at the end, and Shallan effectively manipulated him into marriage by appealing to him with need, but he did know that Shallan was having trouble with her identity and feelings at the time of their marriage and he didn't insist on waiting until she figured herself out. 

Divorce would undoubtedly be a tough subject for Brandon to handle, not in his comfort zone, but it could be an interesting challenge for him and as @GarrethGrey points out this is a unique case for sure. I suspect Brandon would go for divorce before he wrote an infidelity story, but that could just be my bias because I see infidelity as much more serious from a moral standpoint. 

[Dreamstorm]

15 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I would like to point out that Navani and Dalinar did not have a traditional Vorin wedding, so using their marriage as indicative of Vorin marriage oaths is probably not the strongest foundation for your argument.

I point that out if you read down the post.  However, since Navani is devout (we have WoB on this see below), I would argue that even though they could not use a Vorin officiant (since no one would perform the ceremony - it's not that they didn't want to have a traditional Vorin wedding), she would have wanted the oaths to be traditional.  This cannot be proven or unproven since we haven't seen another wedding ceremony, though would make a good question for Brandon.

Quote

Kaladin is agnostic, which most people miss in these discussions, and is the series argument for a compassionate non-believer. Dalinar is a liberal theist, and Navani an orthodox theist.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/182-stormlight-three-update-5/#e3860

 

18 minutes ago, Alderant said:

But we're not discussing Navani and Dalinar, here, we're discussing the idea that Shallan and Adolin would divorce because Shallan's heart is in a different place. I don't want to see that. I would rather see her struggle to keep her marriage vows and have something happen to Adolin, than for her to decide that "Whoops, I made the wrong choice. Bye Adolin!" That would drive me bonkers.

I was addressing a different point - people were talking about how Shallan would be breaking an oath if she divorced Adolin.  I was pointing out I think we have textual evidence that divorce absent oath-breaking would be permissible under Vornism (so Shallan could leave Adolin without breaking her oaths.)  You can definitely allowed to have your opinion about where you would like the plot to go though!  Personally, I don't think Adolin is in love with Shallan, and I would like his "relationship issues" to cause the break-up.  I think we need that (hammered into our head) issue of Adolin's to actually have some repercussions.

[DeployParachute]

1 minute ago, Alderant said:

I don't agree with this one. I think this is dangerous ground for a character to walk on, and if Shallan were to re-integrate, I would want her to decide to stick it out because even if half of her didn't want to do it, she still made the choice. It wasn't some external force acting on her and forcing her to make that choice--some part of her did want to make that choice and she did. As I said above, I'd rather see her struggle to maintain her marriage than peace out. It would make for a better story and better character development.

And the thought of Kaladin and Shallan ending up together at the cost of ADOLIN'S LIFE drives me bonkers.  I think this kind of hits what is so fundamentally wrong with this subplot.  Brandon has potentially written himself into a situation where none of his readers are going to be happy with the outcome.  Let's break it down:

1. The way Brandon wrote the resolution of Shadolin, and the lack of resolution for Shalladin, strongly suggests that Shalladin is not resolved, and their time has not yet come.

2. If we accept that the writing in WoR and OB suggests the above, then we are faced with a dilemma as readers: Shadolin must end.  The only way to do this is if one or the other or both Shallan and Adolin decide to end their union, or Adolin must die.  Part of the readership can't stand the thought of one, and the remaining part can't stand the thought of the other.
 

This is the predicament that Brandon has forced his readers into by tying a seemingly unbreakable commitment between two of the three parts of the triangle at this time, WITHOUT sufficiently closing the door on the remaining third party as an option.  Seeing this, I can really understand why the vast majority of the readers of OB consider the matter closed, because it is much easier than having to face this particular predicament.  Even for me, it is very tempting to just hand wave away all the buildup of Shalladin just so I can avoid having to think about the potential mess coming in the future.  

I am likely being very unimaginative when it comes to thinking about the possible future resolutions, and Brandon, being an experienced professional writer has something planned that none of us can conceive at this time.  Right now, however, this is how I articulate why OB's handling of this bothers me so much, and why I can't stop talking about it.

[Dreamstorm]

28 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Brandon has potentially written himself into a situation where none of his readers are going to be happy with the outcome.  Let's break it down:

1. The way Brandon wrote the resolution of Shadolin, and the lack of resolution for Shalladin, strongly suggests that Shalladin is not resolved, and their time has not yet come.

2. If we accept that the writing in WoR and OB suggests the above, then we are faced with a dilemma as readers: Shadolin must end.  The only way to do this is if one or the other or both Shallan and Adolin decide to end their union, or Adolin must die.  Part of the readership can't stand the thought of one, and the remaining part can't stand the thought of the other.
 

This is the predicament that Brandon has forced his readers into by tying a seemingly unbreakable commitment between two of the three parts of the triangle at this time, WITHOUT sufficiently closing the door on the remaining third party as an option.  Seeing this, I can really understand why the vast majority of the readers of OB consider the matter closed, because it is much easier than having to face this particular predicament.  Even for me, it is very tempting to just hand wave away all the buildup of Shalladin just so I can avoid having to think about the potential mess coming in the future.  

I love this analysis on why this topic is generating so much discussion on one end and so much consternation about the fact it is being discussed on the other end. 

But... what character do we know has issues with sustaining relationships?  What character has this aspect of his character been beaten into our heads?  And this is the same character where we have a near-absent evidence from his perspective that he has strong feelings for his new wife.  And the same character where we hear the complaint that he does no wrong and suffers no repercussions.  I think we're set up to think, wow, Shallan is going to regret this once she stops avoiding her feelings and everyone is going to hate when she wrongs poor Adolin.  But instead we have Adolin who has a demonstrated pattern of messing up romantic relationships be the catalyst for the end.  I think it's a lovely way of flipping it on its head.  And starting a downward spiral for Adolin which he can dig himself out of and then actually earn his Maya revival.  But these are obviously just my thoughts, as like you say, Brandon could go a lot of ways with this!

Edited January 24, 2018 by Dreamstorm

[Alderant]

37 minutes ago, GarrethGrey said:

 I don't think anyone is thinking or implying that there would be infidelity before she ends her marriage, that would be awful and would ruin both Shallan and Kaladins characters (not to mention Kal would never do that). It's perfectly possible and quite normal for her to realize she married the wrong person/got married for the wrong reasons, without a need for infidelity. I also don't really agree with "sticking out" a marriage even if you realize its not what you want and it was a choice made while you weren't mentally stable. I agree people should work at maintaining their marriages and not just give up, but Shallan and Adolins is a unique case to say the least.

Let me clarify: infidelity does not necessarily mean adultery. Infidelity could refer to the heart as well. It's not a matter of stick out a miserable, "I never wanted this" relationship. Part of her did want this. And yes, while she wasn't mentally stable (I can't believe I'm defending this...I'm one of the loudest voices on here about Shallan's mental problems, lol), the other personas ultimately fell in line with the decision, so its not like she was wholly incapable, like Taravangian on a bad day. It would be a betrayal of her marriage vows, but it would also be a betrayal of Adolin, and as I've stated before, Shallan clings to Adolin on a subconscious level because Adolin is everything her life could have, should have been.

I do think that an act of physical passion between Shallan and Kaladin would be bad for both their characters. For Shallan, it would become another thing to hide, another thing to further fracture her already treacherous mental state. For Kaladin, it would be another excuse to beat himself up and tell himself how worthless it is. I don't think it's a necessary plot point for their development, nor do I think that Brandon will write it that way, since that's a very normal triangle-esque thing to do.

FOR THE RECORD, you guys need to stop quoting me while I'm typing lol! I'll address you all in turn.

28 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

But if she feels she does not, it is hard for me to accept that sticking it out is the only valid choice. True, she isn't under an outside influence as far as we know but she does seem to be in an altered mental state. If a person who was severely depressed decided to get married to someone who they felt held them together and later they got treatment and realized they didn't love that person or the marriage wasn't right, divorce would seem justified. 

Also, on a related point, while I mainly put the responsibility for making a decision at the wrong time on Shallan, Adolin does bear some responsibility here too. Yes, he tried to get out of the betrothal at the end, and Shallan effectively manipulated him into marriage by appealing to him with need, but he did know that Shallan was having trouble with her identity and feelings at the time of their marriage and he didn't insist on waiting until she figured herself out. 

Good points here. I agree to a degree, but like I said, I think it would make for a more interesting story for her to stick it out. She does love Adolin to some degree, and what I said above applies to your discourse as well. I agree on the Adolin bearing responsibility point. Absolutely agree, especially since he's helping to keep her fractured, rather than heal.

25 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

This cannot be proven or unproven since we haven't seen another wedding ceremony, though would make a good question for Brandon.

Agreed. That was my entire point. However I need to point something out to you here:

25 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

However, since Navani is devout (we have WoB on this see below)

Quote

Kaladin is agnostic, which most people miss in these discussions, and is the series argument for a compassionate non-believer. Dalinar is a liberal theist, and Navani an orthodox theist.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/182-stormlight-three-update-5/#e3860

Devout and orthodox do not mean the same thing. You need only look at Christianity for evidence of that. What is being described here is that Dalinar is non-traditional, but believes in a god, while Navani believes in the traditional depiction. Navani is not, however, super devout to the Vorin faith. She does un-Vorin things since her appearance--she pressures Dalinar into a relationship, despite their religious relationship as siblings, she wears gloves instead of sleeves, and she is openly critical of the Vorin church to Dalinar. These are not indicators of a devout believer.

And I agree with your last paragraph.

25 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

And the thought of Kaladin and Shallan ending up together at the cost of ADOLIN'S LIFE drives me bonkers.  I think this kind of hits what is so fundamentally wrong with this subplot.  Brandon has potentially written himself into a situation where none of his readers are going to be happy with the outcome.  Let's break it down:

1. The way Brandon wrote the resolution of Shadolin, and the lack of resolution for Shalladin, strongly suggests that Shalladin is not resolved, and their time has not yet come.

2. If we accept that the writing in WoR and OB suggests the above, then we are faced with a dilemma as readers: Shadolin must end.  The only way to do this is if one or the other or both Shallan and Adolin decide to end their union, or Adolin must die.  Part of the readership can't stand the thought of one, and the remaining part can't stand the thought of the other.
 

This is the predicament that Brandon has forced his readers into by tying a seemingly unbreakable commitment between two of the three parts of the triangle at this time, WITHOUT sufficiently closing the door on the remaining third party as an option.  Seeing this, I can really understand why the vast majority of the readers of OB consider the matter closed, because it is much easier than having to face this particular predicament.  Even for me, it is very tempting to just hand wave away all the buildup of Shalladin just so I can avoid having to think about the potential mess coming in the future.  

I am likely being very unimaginative when it comes to thinking about the possible future resolutions, and Brandon, being an experienced professional writer has something planned that none of us can conceive at this time.  Right now, however, this is how I articulate why OB's handling of this bothers me so much, and why I can't stop talking about it.

Ookay. I see where you're coming from here. I understand your points, and they are valid. I'm going to quote you several times just so I can thoroughly address each point in turn.

I'm not saying that I want Kaladin and Shallan to get together at the cost of Adolin's life. I'm saying I would rather Shallan work to make her relationship with Adolin work, and have something on Adolin's end (lack of commitment, incapacitation, abduction, death, whatever) occur before and if at all Kal and Shallan get together.

Quote

 

1. The way Brandon wrote the resolution of Shadolin, and the lack of resolution for Shalladin, strongly suggests that Shalladin is not resolved, and their time has not yet come.

2. If we accept that the writing in WoR and OB suggests the above, then we are faced with a dilemma as readers: Shadolin must end.  The only way to do this is if one or the other or both Shallan and Adolin decide to end their union, or Adolin must die.  Part of the readership can't stand the thought of one, and the remaining part can't stand the thought of the other.

 

I don't think the way you've spelled it out is the only way it could happen. Shalladin could be resolved through a mutual conversation and both decide it's a bad idea. Shallan moves on, is happy in her marriage, and Kaladin moves on and finds someone else. But I digress, your point is valid and I agree that it seems likely.

Quote

This is the predicament that Brandon has forced his readers into by tying a seemingly unbreakable commitment between two of the three parts of the triangle at this time, WITHOUT sufficiently closing the door on the remaining third party as an option.  Seeing this, I can really understand why the vast majority of the readers of OB consider the matter closed, because it is much easier than having to face this particular predicament.  Even for me, it is very tempting to just hand wave away all the buildup of Shalladin just so I can avoid having to think about the potential mess coming in the future.

I am likely being very unimaginative when it comes to thinking about the possible future resolutions, and Brandon, being an experienced professional writer has something planned that none of us can conceive at this time.  Right now, however, this is how I articulate why OB's handling of this bothers me so much, and why I can't stop talking about it.

Here's the thing that no one wants to acknowledge. Adolin isn't as important to the plot as Shallan or Kaladin. He is important to us. If his marriage with Shallan is the end-all of the drama, than either Adolin's going to fade into the background aside from the potential of the Maya plot and his conflicts with Shallan (which will be the main source of the relationship drama), or Kaladin is going to have to be taken out of the equation in some way (possibly as I described above). I'm not even pushing the Shalladin idea here. I don't really care.

Right now, Adolin's removal serves a greater impact as a plot device than his continued persistence. Which would you rather have? Adolin stuck in a diminishing role while Shallan and Kaladin continue through as main characters? Or Adolin bowing out in a grand manner that profoundly impacts both the story and the characters? I personally would prefer the latter--something like Shallan re-integrating and working through her struggles with Adolin only to have it be cut short would be a much more interesting and satisfying conclusion than to have Adolin just fall by the wayside and become a plot device to cause Shallan drama.

But that's my thoughts, and you can agree to disagree. That's fine.

There. I think I've replied to everyone.

[BraidedRose]

Quote

18 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

And the thought of Kaladin and Shallan ending up together at the cost of ADOLIN'S LIFE drives me bonkers.  I think this kind of hits what is so fundamentally wrong with this subplot.  Brandon has potentially written himself into a situation where none of his readers are going to be happy with the outcome.  Let's break it down:

1. The way Brandon wrote the resolution of Shadolin, and the lack of resolution for Shalladin, strongly suggests that Shalladin is not resolved, and their time has not yet come.

2. If we accept that the writing in WoR and OB suggests the above, then we are faced with a dilemma as readers: Shadolin must end.  The only way to do this is if one or the other or both Shallan and Adolin decide to end their union, or Adolin must die.  Part of the readership can't stand the thought of one, and the remaining part can't stand the thought of the other.
 

This is the predicament that Brandon has forced his readers into by tying a seemingly unbreakable commitment between two of the three parts of the triangle at this time, WITHOUT sufficiently closing the door on the remaining third party as an option.  Seeing this, I can really understand why the vast majority of the readers of OB consider the matter closed, because it is much easier than having to face this particular predicament.  Even for me, it is very tempting to just hand wave away all the buildup of Shalladin just so I can avoid having to think about the potential mess coming in the future.  

I am likely being very unimaginative when it comes to thinking about the possible future resolutions, and Brandon, being an experienced professional writer has something planned that none of us can conceive at this time.  Right now, however, this is how I articulate why OB's handling of this bothers me so much, and why I can't stop talking about it.

 

I agree with your post 100%. And I think it is likely that no matter which way this goes from here (including ones we probably can't imagine) some portion of the readers won't really be happy (Brandon even uses Wit to point that out). The way I look at it, when it comes to resolving what he started, Brandon either went for the super easy way or is going to go for the super hard way:

1. The super easy way: hand wave away Shalladin, stick with Shadolin 100% from here, which is a type of romance he has done in several variations before, no particular challenge there.

2. The super hard way: write Shalladin as the long game for the biggest emotional impact, and therefore, by necessity now, include the breakdown of an at least somewhat popular pairing (and possibly include a divorce which would have to be out of his comfort zone).

I happen to think it is possible to do the super hard way and have it be justified and powerful, but not everyone will like it of course so he will have set himself up for quite the challenge. I'm sticking with my hope and belief that he is up to it for now!

[Alderant]

1 minute ago, BraidedRose said:

I agree with your post 100%. And I think it is likely that no matter which way this goes from here (including ones we probably can't imagine) some portion of the readers won't really be happy (Brandon even uses Wit to point that out). The way I look at it, when it comes to resolving what he started, Brandon either went for the super easy way or is going to go for the super hard way:

1. The super easy way: hand wave away Shalladin, stick with Shadolin 100% from here, which is a type of romance he has done in several variations before, no particular challenge there.

2. The super hard way: write Shalladin as the long game for the biggest emotional impact, and therefore, by necessity now, include the breakdown of an at least somewhat popular pairing (and possibly include a divorce which would have to be out of his comfort zone).

I happen to think it is possible to do the super hard way and have it be justified and powerful, but not everyone will like it of course so he will have set himself up for quite the challenge. I'm sticking with my hope and belief that he is up to it for now!

True. Appeasing all readers is impossible. And I don't see Brandon taking the easy way.

[Alderant]

To everyone who forced me to write that long post for almost an hour, have a cookie!

Spoiler

 

[Dreamstorm]

9 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Devout and orthodox do not mean the same thing. You need only look at Christianity for evidence of that. What is being described here is that Dalinar is non-traditional, but believes in a god, while Navani believes in the traditional depiction. Navani is not, however, super devout to the Vorin faith. She does un-Vorin things since her appearance--she pressures Dalinar into a relationship, despite their religious relationship as siblings, she wears gloves instead of sleeves, and she is openly critical of the Vorin church to Dalinar. These are not indicators of a devout believer.

Good point that they are different.  I think orthodox actually would tend more towards Navani wanting to use traditional Vorin oaths (adhering to traditions), but you may be thinking something different with regards to orthodoxy?

20 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Shallan clings to Adolin on a subconscious level because Adolin is everything her life could have, should have been.

I very much agree - Adolin is representative of the "perfect" version of the life Shallan expected - being married off to someone for practical reasons.  She expected to be a pawn, which she was as part of her betrothal to Adolin, but instead of marrying some awful older man (which her father would have done in a heartbeat), she gets paired with the dashing young prince.  It's the fantasy of any young girl from Shallan's background.  (Which is exactly what she expresses to Jasnah when she is told of the betrothal.)

26 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Right now, Adolin's removal serves a greater impact as a plot device than his continued persistence. Which would you rather have? Adolin stuck in a diminishing role while Shallan and Kaladin continue through as main characters? Or Adolin bowing out in a grand manner that profoundly impacts both the story and the characters? I personally would prefer the latter--something like Shallan re-integrating and working through her struggles with Adolin only to have it be cut short would be a much more interesting and satisfying conclusion than to have Adolin just fall by the wayside and become a plot device to cause Shallan drama.

While I agree with you here, I think there is the alternative of Dark Adolin which would also provide a lot of impact on our main characters as well as development for Adolin.  Or maybe Adolin teetering on the dark path.  His lack of remorse over Sadeas doesn't seem healthy and if he were to cause the end of his marriage, perhaps he would finally get rattled in a way which would fundamentally alter him.  (And then when he resists this, his character arc reward will be the revival of Maya.)  But I could also see death.  I just like having Adolin around, so I would rather see struggles and then have him be part of the inevitable insanity that will be book 5.

[Alderant]

1 minute ago, Dreamstorm said:

While I agree with you here, I think there is the alternative of Dark Adolin which would also provide a lot of impact on our main characters as well as development for Adolin.  Or maybe Adolin teetering on the dark path.  His lack of remorse over Sadeas doesn't seem healthy and if he were to cause the end of his marriage, perhaps he would finally get rattled in a way which would fundamentally alter him.  (And then when he resists this, his character arc reward will be the revival of Maya.)  But I could also see death.  I just like having Adolin around, so I would rather see struggles and then have him be part of the inevitable insanity that will be book 5.

Yeah. Totally. He could go dark, he could die. I just think his removal, in some way, would have a greater impact on the story at this point. Maybe if he'd been written more importantly in this book I'd think otherwise, but as he's been written...

[Rainier]

7 hours ago, Greywatch said:

It would damage her relationships and personal/family reputation but I'm sure it's fine.

I'm not saying it's fine, I'm saying it's going to be necessary. Pattern is dying and Shallan is killing him with her lies. If she's lying to herself, she's still killing him. If she's lying to herself about her marriage or her relationship to Adolin, it comes down to the spren vs the marriage. That was my point: this isn't about human interactions, it's about her growth as a Radiant and her need to be self-aware. Anything that's a threat to her self-awareness is a threat to Pattern.

While I don't necessarily expect them to divorce, I recognize that relying on oaths and cultural perception isn't going to cut it, and is in fact rather meaningless compared to her spren and her true nature. Any time someone says that Shallan won't divorce because she swore an oath, I'm compelled to point out that oaths don't matter to her like they matter to Kaladin, even when she means them. For Kaladin it means the breaking of his bond with Syl. For Shallan it's just words, and should be subordinate to her own quest for self-awareness.

[Greywatch]

I would say that the entire point of saying oaths and meaning them is that they are not just words. It's only speculation to say that her bond with Pattern is suffering; when their bond was in real danger in the past, Shallan always noted Pattern diminishing or his distress, which isn't present here. I'd be interested to see what happens in SA4 in the course of their relationship, but there isn't enough evidence in OB to match previous instances of real damage to their bond, so I really don't see the marriage as damaging whatsoever.