Greywatch she/her Posted January 14, 2018 Posted January 14, 2018 1 minute ago, wotbibliophile said: I was trying to say that it was my reading not that it could not be read any other way. I read that Shallan shared a secret and it was not a big one. With Kaladin she told him things she had never told anyone else and that she still has not told anyone else. (Maybe she talked to Wit about the same things.) With Adolin she told him that she pretends she is other people and that she could not decide who she should be. I think why she does this is much more important than the fact that she does it. I took this as a step forward in their relationship but a very small step. My problem is not that I think Shallan will never share more. My problem is that she married Adolin without sharing more. I think Shallan's issues are so serious that they needed to be resolved before she got married. Also we know she thinks of herself as a monster. She is hiding this from Adolin. I think it is possible that she does not tell him because she fears he will reject her. Your post was about accepting the real person. I think Adolin has not accepted Shallan's real self because she is hiding her real self from him. Okay, cool, so we've found our impasse.
Dreamstorm Posted January 14, 2018 Posted January 14, 2018 Hi! I was traveling yesterday, so couldn't respond. So if you're will to keep going on the points we were talking about @Greywatch, here goes! On 1/13/2018 at 0:28 AM, Greywatch said: Being that she split off bits of herself, but her conscious self remains in the same place, I don't see it as false. People change all the time. Things that I used to define myself a year ago are not here anymore, but I'm still me. Shallan has traits, but she is not those traits. I think she'll be much healthier when she accepts them back into herself, but they do not make her Shallan. Shallan makes herself Shallan, whether or not she feels like it. I think we actually agree here with what has happened... Shallan has masks she puts on. Underneath all of them is realShallan. However, only some of Shallan's masks have some of her characteristics (i.e. putting her boldness onto Veil), but no one mask has all of them. The "Shallan" mask has the most of realShallan and can be seen as her anchor mask (i.e. if we had to choose one, that would be the most-realShallan.) I think where we differ is what this means going forward. You are correct that people change over time, and though you didn't say it, the natural follow-on is that just because people change (here it would be Shallan "taking back" the characteristics she puts onto V/R), that doesn't mean their relationships can't shift to accommodate that change. I think you would say Adolin has shown himself capable of shifting to accommodate the change that will likely occur in Shallan, so it doesn't matter that she wasn't whole when he "saw" the real her - that "her" was as real as she could be at the moment, and that is good enough. I don't dispute that is possible (or even probably from an Adolin-acceptance perspective.) For me, part of Shallan's reasoning rings false, i.e. "Adolin knows me", when Shallan is well aware that the her Adolin "saw" is not actually the "real" her - she is shunting things to V/R as a coping mechanism, and she's aware she is doing this (see when she joins hands with them when raising the TC fake army), so she also must be aware the Shallan Adolin "saw" is not all of her. (I do think she wants it to be all of her because she can keep pushing difficult things aside, but that is a different story.) Is it possible for this to be overcome in a relationship (i.e. you know unseemly things about yourself you haven't shared with your husband when you get married), definitely yes. But in the books, there are numerous things which make me highly doubt we are going that way, including Brandon's writing choices in the pivotal "Adolin knows me" scene (Shallan is sitting when Adolin sees her, the imagery of stuffing V/R into the back of her brain in order to make the decision), how Brandon chose to present Shadolin at the end of the book (focus on Shallan mainly thinking wedding = sex, Shallan saying she will fade without Adolin, Adolin treating Veil differently, Shallan noting she hasn't revealed things about herself to Adolin, not burning the wedding glyph, not showing the wedding itself), the Kaladin foreshadowing in general (sitting/standing in pivotal scene and on Honor's path, all the wind references, the natural history analogy, Kaladin's connection to passion which we know from WoB is closer to real Shallan) and the lack of a payoff for Kaladin's place in the arc in general (more on that below.) Anyway, long way of saying that we seem to agree on what happened in the scene, but we disagree with where it'll lead which is fine! On 1/13/2018 at 0:28 AM, Greywatch said: Kaladin's arc and involvement in this is a whole separate thing, but also, the point is that it's a whole separate thing. (His meeting with Laral, a former love interest and he realizes that his feelings for her have died and he can easily move on, is a clear reflection of the later moment where he reflects on Shallan, a love interest, where he realizes that his feelings for her are not what he thought they were; bookend moments, one at the very very beginning of his scenes and one at the very very end. etc etc) So unlike with Shadolin, where I think you made a very strong argument for that couple's growth and arc in OB, I don't see this as bookends, but instead as redundancy. Since we were already shown Kaladin can move on with Laral, what does it show us that Kaladin can do that with another girl? That's he's still able to? This is just repetitive. Same with the "Shallan reminds me of Tien" realization; he already had that realization in the chasms, so it adds no impact for him to have it again. We get it, Shallan reminds you of Tien! We got it the first time! If I had to find a payoff, it would be that Kaladin's romantic/sexual side is awakening. Understandably when Kaladin was in life or death situations as a slave or in the bridge crews, he's focusing on surviving and not on his libido. After the bridge crews move to Dalinar's camp, we see a lot of his men going out and flirting with women, but Kaladin cannot move on to focus on that aspect of life. We are well aware (because he's the only one of our young crew who has actually had a serious relationship), that this is something Kaladin has wanted in the past, but he seems uninterested. Now because of this interaction with Shallan, he's slowly becoming aware he is still capable of having romantic/sexual feelings, which sets him up for seeking a relationship in the future. (I know there are readers who (a) don't think Kaladin should ever be in a romantic relationship and/or (b) don't think Kaladin had romantic/sexual feelings for Shallan, so if you fall into one of those camps, you won't see this as a possible payoff.) The other one I thought of is that Kaladin's pointlessness in the love triangle mirrors Kaladin's pointlessness in OB at all; he didn't contribute really anything - Hearthstone didn't need saving, he failed on his task to Kholinar, he couldn't get the crew out of Shadesmar, he couldn't even kill Amaram - so maybe this was supposed to put an exclamation point on the uselessness of Kaladin in the book. He was pointless and to hammer it home he had pointless involvement in the love triangle. (I don't agree with this, but I'm trying here!) On 1/13/2018 at 0:28 AM, Greywatch said: Not all situations are going to resolve in the same way in order to be feminist, nor should they be. A woman being strong and standing on their own is not the only way a female character arc can be feminist. A strong woman who should never accept any dependence on a man or romance with a man, etc., is one very specific reading but it's not the only way to be feminist. Using an example of something different... In other fandoms, many women of colour have expressed that this specific idea is more popularly expressed from white women - since women of colour are expected to be strong, all the time, alone, in real life, without needing any help, female characters, (esp if they're not white), in fiction who get to be the ones to be rescued and/or have a really strong, sweet relationship is more feminist. Them standing alone and expected to take care of themselves is not empowering but dehumanizing; an expectation that since they are strong and independent, that that they are not equally deserving of empathy or love. Hence, receiving those things are arcs where women get to be empathized with and worthy of being supported and loved. That's one example, but there are some situations, in real life and fiction, where a woman standing alone, self-sufficient, is not the be-all, end-all feminist reading. Totally agree with you that feminism is about choice, not about fitting into a mold opposite of societal stereotypes. Two points on this... One, my point on agency and independence does not in any way mean no romance or no support from others or having to be all alone in the world. In fact, Dalinar is a good example of this. Navani is crucial to Dalinar's ability to resist Odium IMO. Navani is there for him when he is broken down in Part 4, she supports him, she picks up the pieces when he cannot, after TC she runs down and shoos away Kaladin and Lopen to be the one who is there with him. Dalinar is very much not alone in life, and he is dependent on his partner Navani in many ways. But when it comes to the crucial moment when Dalinar has to make the decision of whether or not he will give into Odium, Dalinar is making that decision alone. This mirrors what is necessary for true mental health progress. You can have everyone around you telling you that you are worthy or that you shouldn't do drugs, but in the end what matters is not what others tell you or guide you to, but that you yourself believe you are worthy and you yourself have the strength to resist drugs. Support networks are amazing and crucial, but it's still your realization/decision/belief that matters This isn't what happens to Shallan; instead of Shallan coming to her own realization "that's the one", it's Adolin's hand squeeze that points out to Shallan "that's the one." So, in shorthand, this issues is not that Shallan is in a romantic relationship or that she has support from a romantic partner, it's that she didn't make the crucial realization herself, but instead had someone do it for her. Second, I see your point about women of color vs. white women. There is definitely a stereotype (both in popular culture and in real life), that black women have to be strong while alone while white women are more likely to be part of a supportive relationship. (There is a lot of literature about this surrounding single parenting.) So, if a white female author wrote a book with three protagonists, two white women and one black woman, and the white women have relationships which help them deal with the struggles put forth in the book whereas the black woman is strong and alone, then agreed this is offensive. Here, we have a stereotype (both in popular culture and in real life) that men are independent and can sort through life's problem's on their own whereas women are dependent (from a financial and emotional perspective) and need assistance to deal with life's problems. In fact, women's independence is often vilified, i.e. the bachelor v. spinster dichotomy. (There has also been a lot of literature about this especially surrounding the perceived "threat" of single women.) Here, we have a male author with three protagonists, two men and one woman, and we have the two men able to come to their moments of realization alone (regardless of the support network they have before or after as I discussed above) whereas the woman needs a man to point out her realization for her. So we have a male writer choosing to have his protagonists play directly into societal stereotypes, which is why I find it offensive, just like the example above, like you point out, is also offensive. Just as an aside, I see Shallan's biggest moment to be when she almost crumples when creating the army in TC and she Lightweaves her mother, and then she accepts the support of Veil and Radiant but forcibly realizes she doesn't need any other masks. At this point, she is able to also soulcast a bit into her creations (per what Jasnah sees, obviously we don't know this 100% for sure) and also create the most advanced Lightweaving we've seen so far. She needed others to get there (notably Wit, but also I'm sure Adolin's support on Honor's Path helped too), but she had to come to the realization she didn't any more "Shallan''s herself for it to be a powerful moment. I also see a lot of beauty in her accepting Veil and Radiant's help, because in essence this is her seeing that she needs herself, all of herself, to face these trials. (There is some of this in the Re-Shephir fight, though Shallan gets scared of letting her secrets be known, so she backs off.) On 1/13/2018 at 0:28 AM, Greywatch said: I strongly disagree that expecting a mentally ill to do it herself is really unfair, and especially to women readers who are in the same boat. To quote someone a few pages earlier in this thread, asking for help when you need it is really hard. Exponentially moreso when you're someone like Shallan. Shallan, who for a large part of this series, doesn't believe herself worthy of being loved or supported or accepted. That she sees herself as awful and weak, but learns to accept that she might not be, that someone she really likes/loves doesn't see her as pathetic or broken... To some readers, this was not a moment of weakness, but a moment of strength. Being able to ask for help, when you're in Shallan's shoes, it's really hard. But this isn't distinguished from our men - both Kaladin and Dalinar have mental health issues - so again it's our woman protagonist who is falling back on stereotypes of being dependent (in the moment of decision) which aren't applied to our male protagonists. Also, as I mentioned above, asking for help and having a support network is different than dependence. Asking for help is also different than thinking you need to get married to receive that help. (Man, this would have been so much better if Brandon wasn't so anti-premarital sex. Then Shallan could have gotten the sex she so desires while getting help from Adolin on her masks, without having to get married before working through some of her issues!) 2
Greywatch she/her Posted January 14, 2018 Posted January 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said: I think we actually agree here with what has happened... Shallan has masks she puts on. Underneath all of them is realShallan. However, only some of Shallan's masks have some of her characteristics (i.e. putting her boldness onto Veil), but no one mask has all of them. The "Shallan" mask has the most of realShallan and can be seen as her anchor mask (i.e. if we had to choose one, that would be the most-realShallan.) I think where we differ is what this means going forward. You are correct that people change over time, and though you didn't say it, the natural follow-on is that just because people change (here it would be Shallan "taking back" the characteristics she puts onto V/R), that doesn't mean their relationships can't shift to accommodate that change. I think you would say Adolin has shown himself capable of shifting to accommodate the change that will likely occur in Shallan, so it doesn't matter that she wasn't whole when he "saw" the real her - that "her" was as real as she could be at the moment, and that is good enough. I don't dispute that is possible (or even probably from an Adolin-acceptance perspective.) For me, part of Shallan's reasoning rings false, i.e. "Adolin knows me", when Shallan is well aware that the her Adolin "saw" is not actually the "real" her - she is shunting things to V/R as a coping mechanism, and she's aware she is doing this (see when she joins hands with them when raising the TC fake army), so she also must be aware the Shallan Adolin "saw" is not all of her. (I do think she wants it to be all of her because she can keep pushing difficult things aside, but that is a different story.) Is it possible for this to be overcome in a relationship (i.e. you know unseemly things about yourself you haven't shared with your husband when you get married), definitely yes. But in the books, there are numerous things which make me highly doubt we are going that way, including Brandon's writing choices in the pivotal "Adolin knows me" scene (Shallan is sitting when Adolin sees her, the imagery of stuffing V/R into the back of her brain in order to make the decision), how Brandon chose to present Shadolin at the end of the book (focus on Shallan mainly thinking wedding = sex, Shallan saying she will fade without Adolin, Adolin treating Veil differently, Shallan noting she hasn't revealed things about herself to Adolin, not burning the wedding glyph, not showing the wedding itself), the Kaladin foreshadowing in general (sitting/standing in pivotal scene and on Honor's path, all the wind references, the natural history analogy, Kaladin's connection to passion which we know from WoB is closer to real Shallan) and the lack of a payoff for Kaladin's place in the arc in general (more on that below.) Anyway, long way of saying that we seem to agree on what happened in the scene, but we disagree with where it'll lead which is fine! Yeah, I think we fundamentally disagree on pretty much all the above points. The big moment for Shallan and Adolin not being the wedding, but the emotional sharing before that, which still falls in the category of "end of the book". Adolin knowing about Veil for about one line in the book and we really don't know how he's actually going to treat Shallan and the alters. It being totally fine that she hasn't told Adolin literally 100% of her stuff and that she hasn't doesn't undermine the relationship. Shallan's people don't burn glyphs actually, which comes up before the big duel in WoR. And I don't find the Kaladin comparisons... compelling? The only thing that's interesting is the standing/sitting thing, but I don't agree that people in love have to share the same interests or more similar personalities, that's not a thing in real life, and it rings totally false that that's a big reason Shalladin works better than Shadolin. Shadolin rings a lot truer to couples I know in real life, and Shalladin really doesn't. Quote So unlike with Shadolin, where I think you made a very strong argument for that couple's growth and arc in OB, I don't see this as bookends, but instead as redundancy. Since we were already shown Kaladin can move on with Laral, what does it show us that Kaladin can do that with another girl? That's he's still able to? This is just repetitive. Same with the "Shallan reminds me of Tien" realization; he already had that realization in the chasms, so it adds no impact for him to have it again. We get it, Shallan reminds you of Tien! We got it the first time! If I had to find a payoff, it would be that Kaladin's romantic/sexual side is awakening. Understandably when Kaladin was in life or death situations as a slave or in the bridge crews, he's focusing on surviving and not on his libido. After the bridge crews move to Dalinar's camp, we see a lot of his men going out and flirting with women, but Kaladin cannot move on to focus on that aspect of life. We are well aware (because he's the only one of our young crew who has actually had a serious relationship), that this is something Kaladin has wanted in the past, but he seems uninterested. Now because of this interaction with Shallan, he's slowly becoming aware he is still capable of having romantic/sexual feelings, which sets him up for seeking a relationship in the future. (I know there are readers who (a) don't think Kaladin should ever be in a romantic relationship and/or (b) don't think Kaladin had romantic/sexual feelings for Shallan, so if you fall into one of those camps, you won't see this as a possible payoff.) The other one I thought of is that Kaladin's pointlessness in the love triangle mirrors Kaladin's pointlessness in OB at all; he didn't contribute really anything - Hearthstone didn't need saving, he failed on his task to Kholinar, he couldn't get the crew out of Shadesmar, he couldn't even kill Amaram - so maybe this was supposed to put an exclamation point on the uselessness of Kaladin in the book. He was pointless and to hammer it home he had pointless involvement in the love triangle. (I don't agree with this, but I'm trying here!) I don't see it being redundant at all. Setting up an early situation which mirrors a later situation is foreshadowing. Foreshadowing isn't repetitive - or doesn't have to be. She reminds him of Tien in the chasms vs she reminds him of Tien at the end of OB have completely different emotional contexts. Literature in general is made up of similar situations being brought up in different contexts - and the character is found in what the differences are. The difference in how Kaladin thinks of it even though the words are technically the same is not a repetition. Kaladin also doesn't need to be the star of every single book, and I don't think Kaladin was useless in this book. I really dislike the idea that because one can't create a list with tangible successes mean he was useless or pointless. Sometimes the arc is not satisfying to some readers, but doesn't mean it isn't there. Sometimes you fail and you don't get what you want, what you need... But you carry on anyway. Sometimes you need help to keep going. Sometimes you can't do it by yourself. All absolutely things that are in line for Kaladin's character development. Quote Totally agree with you that feminism is about choice, not about fitting into a mold opposite of societal stereotypes. Two points on this... One, my point on agency and independence does not in any way mean no romance or no support from others or having to be all alone in the world. In fact, Dalinar is a good example of this. Navani is crucial to Dalinar's ability to resist Odium IMO. Navani is there for him when he is broken down in Part 4, she supports him, she picks up the pieces when he cannot, after TC she runs down and shoos away Kaladin and Lopen to be the one who is there with him. Dalinar is very much not alone in life, and he is dependent on his partner Navani in many ways. But when it comes to the crucial moment when Dalinar has to make the decision of whether or not he will give into Odium, Dalinar is making that decision alone. This mirrors what is necessary for true mental health progress. You can have everyone around you telling you that you are worthy or that you shouldn't do drugs, but in the end what matters is not what others tell you or guide you to, but that you yourself believe you are worthy and you yourself have the strength to resist drugs. Support networks are amazing and crucial, but it's still your realization/decision/belief that matters This isn't what happens to Shallan; instead of Shallan coming to her own realization "that's the one", it's Adolin's hand squeeze that points out to Shallan "that's the one." So, in shorthand, this issues is not that Shallan is in a romantic relationship or that she has support from a romantic partner, it's that she didn't make the crucial realization herself, but instead had someone do it for her. Shallan is also in a different situation from Dalinar. Her issues are different, they can't be treated the same way as Dalinar's, and nor should we react to them in the same way as Dalinar's. Dalinar doesn't have a dissociative disorder, and his specific issues are not about thinking of himself as a monster (even though we think of younger Dalinar so, he is not occupied with this in the present). Dalinar already has emotional support. He knows that his family cares about him, he has supports. Shallan is starting with much less than Dalinar and she's not in the same place in her journey that Dalinar is. Shallan was only able to admit the truth about her past one book ago, and in OB, she moves through the reality of 'it's real and it doesn't have to mean that I'm terrible'. In SA4, she'll be even further along and her arc will be something different. I completely disagree that she should have to do it alone, because Dalinar and Kaladin certainly don't do it alone. Right now, Shallan is in a specific place, in her journey that is much different from Dalinar and Kaladin's, that can't be compared the exact same "because they're all mentally ill" - no. That's unfair to all of them. They all need different things at different times. Sorry, but I cannot get on board with this comparison. Quote Second, I see your point about women of color vs. white women. There is definitely a stereotype (both in popular culture and in real life), that black women have to be strong while alone while white women are more likely to be part of a supportive relationship. (There is a lot of literature about this surrounding single parenting.) So, if a white female author wrote a book with three protagonists, two white women and one black woman, and the white women have relationships which help them deal with the struggles put forth in the book whereas the black woman is strong and alone, then agreed this is offensive. Here, we have a stereotype (both in popular culture and in real life) that men are independent and can sort through life's problem's on their own whereas women are dependent (from a financial and emotional perspective) and need assistance to deal with life's problems. In fact, women's independence is often vilified, i.e. the bachelor v. spinster dichotomy. (There has also been a lot of literature about this especially surrounding the perceived "threat" of single women.) Here, we have a male author with three protagonists, two men and one woman, and we have the two men able to come to their moments of realization alone (regardless of the support network they have before or after as I discussed above) whereas the woman needs a man to point out her realization for her. So we have a male writer choosing to have his protagonists play directly into societal stereotypes, which is why I find it offensive, just like the example above, like you point out, is also offensive. My point being that is only one scenario. There are plenty of other terrible and sexist scenarios that are not about single women. If Shallan was the only female character in the series, sure, but all of the things about a woman alone, I can answer by pointing to Jasnah. Shallan is not the only female character, and she shouldn't be expected to carry the weight of answering all sexist tropes as if she was the only one. She's not, and many tropes are answered not just by Shallan, but by the weight of all the female characters. Brandon doesn't have this play out for all his female character ever - not even all his female characters in Stormlight! If I can answer the reasoning by being able to point to another female character in the same series who doesn't have this situation applied to her, then... I just cannot agree that this is sexist. Jasnah, Navani, Lift, Evi, Rysn, Malata... do not fall into this, either. Again, only if Shallan was the only one, and Brandon did this. But she's mentally ill, when her entire arc is about not being able to admit her troubles to the man she loves, not able to admit that she needs help and support, and then she receives that... I think that's pretty great. Quote Just as an aside, I see Shallan's biggest moment to be when she almost crumples when creating the army in TC and she Lightweaves her mother, and then she accepts the support of Veil and Radiant but forcibly realizes she doesn't need any other masks. At this point, she is able to also soulcast a bit into her creations (per what Jasnah sees, obviously we don't know this 100% for sure) and also create the most advanced Lightweaving we've seen so far. She needed others to get there (notably Wit, but also I'm sure Adolin's support on Honor's Path helped too), but she had to come to the realization she didn't any more "Shallan''s herself for it to be a powerful moment. I also see a lot of beauty in her accepting Veil and Radiant's help, because in essence this is her seeing that she needs herself, all of herself, to face these trials. (There is some of this in the Re-Shephir fight, though Shallan gets scared of letting her secrets be known, so she backs off.) That is a pretty big moment. No disagreement here. Quote But this isn't distinguished from our men - both Kaladin and Dalinar have mental health issues - so again it's our woman protagonist who is falling back on stereotypes of being dependent (in the moment of decision) which aren't applied to our male protagonists. Also, as I mentioned above, asking for help and having a support network is different than dependence. Asking for help is also different than thinking you need to get married to receive that help. (Man, this would have been so much better if Brandon wasn't so anti-premarital sex. Then Shallan could have gotten the sex she so desires while getting help from Adolin on her masks, without having to get married before working through some of her issues!) I don't think her getting married to receive help is what happened at all, and I just... wow, yeah. Her getting help and her getting married were treated separately in the text. Her emotional support scene with Adolin was separated by time and distance in the text from the pre-wedding when she's thinking about whether she's sure that it's Adolin she wants to be with. I can't agree with linking the two concepts. They were treated as two separate things in the relationship arc, and it really bothers me the wording of it as though the only reason she got married to Adolin was to receive the emotional support. It feels like a deliberate misreading of the tone in order to make Shallan and Adolin's relationship seem bad. 1
Dreamstorm Posted January 14, 2018 Posted January 14, 2018 26 minutes ago, Greywatch said: The big moment for Shallan and Adolin not being the wedding, but the emotional sharing before that, which still falls in the category of "end of the book". Adolin knowing about Veil for about one line in the book and we really don't know how he's actually going to treat Shallan and the alters. It being totally fine that she hasn't told Adolin literally 100% of her stuff and that she hasn't doesn't undermine the relationship. Shallan's people don't burn glyphs actually, which comes up before the big duel in WoR. The point is not what could matter or not in a relationship in real life, but the fact Brandon decided to include all of these items in the last scene we see together of Adolin and Shallan. To put another way, it's not if they are insurmountable, but that they were mentioned in the book in the first place and in what context. 28 minutes ago, Greywatch said: And I don't find the Kaladin comparisons... compelling? The only thing that's interesting is the standing/sitting thing, but I don't agree that people in love have to share the same interests or more similar personalities, that's not a thing in real life, and it rings totally false that that's a big reason Shalladin works better than Shadolin. Shadolin rings a lot truer to couples I know in real life, and Shalladin really doesn't. If you're addressing the foreshadowing, it has nothing to do with their personalities or what would or would not work in real life or in the book. (I think there are arguments both ways on that one.) It's about literary additions which "hint" where the author is heading. Another one besides the sitting/standing is comparing the WoK discussion where Shallan explains why she chose natural history over art for her Calling versus her explanation of the difference between Adolin as fine art and Kaladin as rugged naturalism late in WoR. (If you can't find this, I can pull the exact quotes and references for you.) It has nothing do with the actual subject matter, but the author using it as a metaphor and foreshadowing for Shallan's eventual choice. Just like the above, the analysis is about why the author included these things. 31 minutes ago, Greywatch said: Setting up an early situation which mirrors a later situation is foreshadowing. Foreshadowing is different from bookending a character arc (hints of what is to come versus transformation of a character over the course of the book.) I'll give you Kaladin being over Laral could be foreshadowing his decision with Shallan. That doesn't solve "Kaladin has no character arc purpose in the love triangle", but I can see it being foreshadowing! (Btw - I also don't think "Kaladin did nothing" is Brandon's point of the book. I was just trying to find some way to get something out of the love triangle for Kal!) 42 minutes ago, Greywatch said: She reminds him of Tien in the chasms vs she reminds him of Tien at the end of OB have completely different emotional contexts. Can you explain this for me? I don't see them as different. 36 minutes ago, Greywatch said: Right now, Shallan is in a specific place, in her journey that is much different from Dalinar and Kaladin's, that can't be compared the exact same "because they're all mentally ill" - no. That's unfair to all of them. They all need different things at different times. Sorry, but I cannot get on board with this comparison. I must not have formulated this clearly, because I was explaining that having moments of realization with agency and independence does not mean one is alone or without relationships (i.e. I was not saying one should "never accept any dependence on a man or romance with a man" (quoting you from earlier post)) and was using Dalinar as an example (though obviously putting "person" in for "man" as this applies equally no matter the context.) Agreed Shallan is different than either Dalinar or Kaladin or actually any other character. That doesn't mean I'm not offended that our main female protagonist requires dependence and our men do not. It still follows the stereotype like I explained previously. 43 minutes ago, Greywatch said: She's not, and many tropes are answered not just by Shallan, but by the weight of all the female characters. Brandon doesn't have this play out for all his female character ever - not even all his female characters in Stormlight! If I can answer the reasoning by being able to point to another female character in the same series who doesn't have this situation applied to her, then... I just cannot agree that this is sexist. Jasnah, Navani, Lift, Evi, Rysn, Malata... do not fall into this, either. Again, only if Shallan was the only one, and Brandon did this. Ok, so you seem to agree with me on the disproportionate treatment of men vs. women for our mains, but you think it's OK because we have side characters who don't follow stereotypical female lines. Being good on a larger scale does not for me negate the issue on a smaller scale (to take our earlier hypothetical, do you think it would matter to women of color if there were some side characters who didn't conform to the "strong and all alone" stereotype even though our main character did?), but I can understand we draw the line at a different place, which is totally fine as that's just our own personal tolerance for it. (It offends me; you're fine because you see balance when you widen the sample set to all female characters.) I get where you're coming from here, so hopefully you can see where I'm coming from even if you don't agree! 49 minutes ago, Greywatch said: Her getting help and her getting married were treated separately in the text. Her emotional support scene with Adolin was separated by time and distance in the text from the pre-wedding when she's thinking about whether she's sure that it's Adolin she wants to be with. I can't agree with linking the two concepts. They were treated as two separate things in the relationship arc, and it really bothers me the wording of it as though the only reason she got married to Adolin was to receive the emotional support. I'm confused. You see the scene where Adolin tries to break up/Shallan says she needs help as not connected to them getting married? Can you explain what you mean here a little differently? I'm thinking we may be thinking of a different "moment" when she asked Adolin for help, as what I see as the moment immediately precedes (as in it's literally the Shallan viewpoint right before) when they are cuddling while discussing the state of Roshar and Shallan is musing about how the wedding was scheduled. 2
Greywatch she/her Posted January 14, 2018 Posted January 14, 2018 9 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said: The point is not what could matter or not in a relationship in real life, but the fact Brandon decided to include all of these items in the last scene we see together of Adolin and Shallan. To put another way, it's not if they are insurmountable, but that they were mentioned in the book in the first place and in what context. If you're addressing the foreshadowing, it has nothing to do with their personalities or what would or would not work in real life or in the book. (I think there are arguments both ways on that one.) It's about literary additions which "hint" where the author is heading. Another one besides the sitting/standing is comparing the WoK discussion where Shallan explains why she chose natural history over art for her Calling versus her explanation of the difference between Adolin as fine art and Kaladin as rugged naturalism late in WoR. (If you can't find this, I can pull the exact quotes and references for you.) It has nothing do with the actual subject matter, but the author using it as a metaphor and foreshadowing for Shallan's eventual choice. Just like the above, the analysis is about why the author included these things.Foreshadowing is different from bookending a character arc (hints of what is to come versus transformation of a character over the course of the book.) I'll give you Kaladin being over Laral could be foreshadowing his decision with Shallan. That doesn't solve "Kaladin has no character arc purpose in the love triangle", but I can see it being foreshadowing! (Btw - I also don't think "Kaladin did nothing" is Brandon's point of the book. I was just trying to find some way to get something out of the love triangle for Kal!) Yeah. I found the context and timing of how they were dealt with in the book totally complete and a good resolution of the arc. Bringing up the chasm scene is outside the bounds of OB's arcs, and though the books are all one series, the individual books also have their own individual, complete arcs. In OB, the context of the scenes between Adolin and Shallan is a full and complete arc. Seeing as other readers in this thread also use their experience of relationships to explain their reaction to the relationships, I'm going to continue to do so. "Shallan explains why she chose natural history over art for her Calling versus her explanation of the difference between Adolin as fine art and Kaladin as rugged naturalism late in WoR." Shallan also describes Adolin as a whitespine and Kaladin as beautiful in an artistic way, so I don't buy this. Personally, Shallan seeing Kaladin as rugged and scary-in-a-force-of-nature kind of way evidence that she doesn't see him accurately and I really dislike Shallan's perception of Kaladin. Quote Can you explain this for me? I don't see them as different. Kaladin and Shallan are both in different places when in the chasms and at the end of OB. In the chasms, Kaladin is at one of his lowest places and Shallan is in the throes of repression (my reasoning being, her character ends with her admitting to Pattern that she killed her mom, which re-contextualizes her character throughout WoR knowing that it was leading to her admitting a truth she'd been repressing). Their scene in the chasms plays as two characters realizing they have some things in common, and Kaladin's comparing her to Tien comes hand in hand with humanizing her. He realizes that she's someone he could learn to care about. The scene at the end of OB comes at the end of an arc where both of them think about each other but ultimately decide not to act on that. They had very few interactions, and what interactions they did have did not move their relationship forward. Though they have a base similarity in being mentally ill, a kinship they found out in WoR, their interactions in OB only reinforce that they don't understand each other's issues. They think about each other, but in real situations, real interactions, it falls short. They don't work. He realizes that she could still be good for him in some ways, but only as a friend. Where Shallan was emotionally available in the chasms for the first comparison, Shallan makes a firm choice for the second comparison. The context of the situation changes the meaning of the words. Quote I must not have formulated this clearly, because I was explaining that having moments of realization with agency and independence does not mean one is alone or without relationships (i.e. I was not saying one should "never accept any dependence on a man or romance with a man" (quoting you from earlier post)) and was using Dalinar as an example (though obviously putting "person" in for "man" as this applies equally no matter the context.) Agreed Shallan is different than either Dalinar or Kaladin or actually any other character. That doesn't mean I'm not offended that our main female protagonist requires dependence and our men do not. It still follows the stereotype like I explained previously. Ok, so you seem to agree with me on the disproportionate treatment of men vs. women for our mains, but you think it's OK because we have side characters who don't follow stereotypical female lines. Being good on a larger scale does not for me negate the issue on a smaller scale (to take our earlier hypothetical, do you think it would matter to women of color if there were some side characters who didn't conform to the "strong and all alone" stereotype even though our main character did?), but I can understand we draw the line at a different place, which is totally fine as that's just our own personal tolerance for it. (It offends me; you're fine because you see balance when you widen the sample set to all female characters.) I get where you're coming from here, so hopefully you can see where I'm coming from even if you don't agree! I disagree because I neither think it's stereotypical or sexist, and yes, I very much do think it matters to many female readers that don't have to have a woman solving all of her issues completely isolated and alone. I, personally, am really bothered by that trope, because I've seen "the strong woman" trope used badly by many male writers who use it an excuse to not write a compelling story for a woman. Like, why care about a woman's issues, because she's got it handled. No need to slow down the plot, no need to try and understand what she's going through, the male love interest doesn't have to worry his little head about her issues because she's got it handled. I hate that so much. And on the flip side, I adore when male characters are written as empathetic and understanding, especially from the character who would be the worst version of the golden player boy in another, worse author's hands. I can understand your perspective, but I'll continue to insist it's not automatically sexist. Quote I'm confused. You see the scene where Adolin tries to break up/Shallan says she needs help as not connected to them getting married? Can you explain what you mean here a little differently? I'm thinking we may be thinking of a different "moment" when she asked Adolin for help, as what I see as the moment immediately precedes (as in it's literally the Shallan viewpoint right before) when they are cuddling while discussing the state of Roshar and Shallan is musing about how the wedding was scheduled. My basic point is that Shallan doesn't have lines about, wow I'm so glad I'm marrying Adolin because he tells me what I hear, I'm so glad to marry someone who helps me deal with my issues. They have a strong emotional moment where Adolin is there for Shallan during a critical moment; and then in a separate scene, Shallan ignores Kaladin and chooses Adolin; and then in a separate scene Shallan has the scene about reflecting on the upcoming marriage. They're all important to the settling of the relationship, but it's not like it's in the text that Shallan is marrying him because she feels dependent on him. Even with the "without you I fade" line (which was played for laughs one sentence later) that's not how Shallan treats it and it's not how the narrative treats it.
Guest Posted January 15, 2018 Posted January 15, 2018 (edited) So, let me get this straight: 19 hours ago, Greywatch said: They were treated as two separate things in the relationship arc, and it really bothers me the wording of it as though the only reason she got married to Adolin was to receive the emotional support. You're telling me, that there is more to it than just that. So that Adolin apparently understanding Shallan's predicament is not the reason Shallan chooses him, right? Then later on, you say, that Kaladin and Shallan wouldn't work in a relationship, because they apparently don't understand each other's predicaments: 17 hours ago, Greywatch said: Though they have a base similarity in being mentally ill, a kinship they found out in WoR, their interactions in OB only reinforce that they don't understand each other's issues. They think about each other, but in real situations, real interactions, it falls short. They don't work. Wouldn't that imply, that for a relationship with Shallan to work the person in question has to understand her issues? Wouldn't that make it the reason Adolin and her apparently work better? I don't want to imply, that there are no feelings for Adolin in her, that there isn't something more. That would be wrong, but those feelings, she has are purely sexual ("strong arms", "how does he look so good with gravel in his hair" and so on and so forth), but more on that later. The feelings she described for Kaladin were different ("passionate eyes", "determined", "a tempting arrogance, but not the haughty pride of a highlord. Instead, the secure, stable sense of determination that whispered that no matter who you were—or what you did—you could not hurt him. Could not change him.", "a leashed anger, that he used because he had dominated it"), though she acknowledges his physical attractiveness, there is more that she sees... Stuff, that she doesn't see when she looks at Adolin. Anyway, she suddenly stops to have these feelings after Jasnah reprimanded her for having wandering eyes. She represses them, because she thinks, that they are wrong to have. This is the recurring theme with Shallan. Jasnah said something to Shallan. She said, that she understands, that Shallan enjoyed the freedom she had while Jasnah was gone and that is true. Shallan enjoyed the time during WoR, but she is put back in her place by her teacher and she submits to it. She becomes Shallan again. Shallan the perfect Vorin girl. Except, that she flees to Veil to live out her desire for freedom, for doing what she wants. For feeling how she wants. 17 hours ago, Greywatch said: My basic point is that Shallan doesn't have lines about, wow I'm so glad I'm marrying Adolin because he tells me what I hear, I'm so glad to marry someone who helps me deal with my issues. The thing is, that she doesn't have to have those lines. The marriage is the logical consequence, but the reason she chooses Adolin is: Adolin knows me. If we'd have to pinpoint a reason, that she is glad to marry Adolin, it is because she finally can have sex with him. ("She wouldn't want to go too far in a relationship without oaths".) This correlates with every other feeling, she had for him during WoR and Oathbringer. Sure, she thinks he's kind and noble and genuine, but ask 10 people to describe Adolin and they'd describe him as exactly that. She doesn't have any deeper feelings for him than that and sexual desire. And, of course, that he anchors her. This might be enough for now, but in the long-term? I don't know. The "without you I fade" line could be meant humorous, but it certainly wasn't by Shallan, her tone and internal monologue doesn't imply that at all. It was used to both show the cringyness of their "romantic" interactions, but, also, to further reinforce the fact, that she needs Adolin to even keep Shallan around! Edited January 15, 2018 by SLNC
Dreamstorm Posted January 15, 2018 Posted January 15, 2018 14 hours ago, Greywatch said: Yeah. I found the context and timing of how they were dealt with in the book totally complete and a good resolution of the arc. Bringing up the chasm scene is outside the bounds of OB's arcs, and though the books are all one series, the individual books also have their own individual, complete arcs. In OB, the context of the scenes between Adolin and Shallan is a full and complete arc. Seeing as other readers in this thread also use their experience of relationships to explain their reaction to the relationships, I'm going to continue to do so. "Shallan explains why she chose natural history over art for her Calling versus her explanation of the difference between Adolin as fine art and Kaladin as rugged naturalism late in WoR." Shallan also describes Adolin as a whitespine and Kaladin as beautiful in an artistic way, so I don't buy this. Personally, Shallan seeing Kaladin as rugged and scary-in-a-force-of-nature kind of way evidence that she doesn't see him accurately and I really dislike Shallan's perception of Kaladin. I'm a little confused about what you're addressing here. We know Brandon uses foreshadowing ("FS") which stretches across multiple books, both because we've seen it in action (e.g. Mistborn; WoB discussing FS in book1 for book3: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/141-mistborn-the-final-empire-annotations/#e2307) and also because he's said so (noting FS is for books ways in the future: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/172-oathbringer-san-diego-signing/#e8568; noting FS in AoL is for next MB trilogy: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/198-general-twitter-2011/#e4232.) As I mentioned before, FS is different than character arcs - hints of what is to come versus transformation of a character over the course of the book. So, we can definitely look at FS outside of OB in order to analyze what Brandon is hinting at may be coming. (You can, of course, interpret it differently! That's the fun of it. But you can't pretend Brandon doesn't FS and that it's not a relevant (if obviously not always precise) predictor of plot lines in the future.) You can certainly use your experience to explain why you see things the way you do! I don't think I ever said you couldn't or shouldn't. I was explaining that I wasn't arguing over whether certain "red flags" presented in the last chapter for Shadolin could be overcome (I think they theoretically could), but that my point was why Brandon decided to include them at all. You could see this as Brandon wanting to show that despite issues to come (which he's hinting at) the strength of the Shadolin relationship (as emphasized by the repeated discussion of Adolin's "strong arms" which symbolizes the strength of their relationship) is FS for Shadolin to overcome those issues. Hopefully that makes more sense - we were talking about two different aspects of analysis here. On the art v. natural history, I'll add the quotes since I don't think you know what part I'm talking about (i.e. it's Shallan herself who makes the comparison, not something we have to work to find as a reader.) But first, when does Shallan describe Adolin as a whitespine? That's not something I recall seeing, so I would appreciate you pointing it out. Quote on Shallan's choice of calling: Quote She had thought long about her Calling. The obvious choice was her art, and she did so love sketching. But it was more than just the drawing that attracted her - it was the study, the questions raised by observation. [....] So she'd chosen natural history instead. WoK Ch. 3 City of Bells Quote on Shallan comparing Adolin to Kaladin: Quote There was sort of a rugged handsomeness to the fellow. Like the beauty of a natural rock formation, as opposed to a fine sculpture like Adolin. WoR Ch. 70 From a Nightmare Note I did have a discussion on whether OB flipped this metaphor by making Kaladin the fine art and Adolin the natural history (due to Shallan's comment about Kaladin being a picture on the wall she liked to admire.) I'm spoilering my discussion on that in case you want to read it. As I say, I don't see evidence for changing the original (nail on the head) comparison such that Adolin is the natural history analog. (And since you find that scary, you probably wouldn't like that anyway!) Perhaps this is actually hinting Shallan will change her Calling to art? She's thinking about changing her Devotary, so maybe she could do both! Spoiler So I took a look at the way Shallan thinks about the two in OB to see if I thought the metaphor got flipped on its head. For Kaladin, she uses words like: blue eyes, brooding, dangerous, flared, motion, passion, untamed, flying, moving, sentinel. For Adolin, she uses words like: nice but bland, clean-cut, obvious, expected, warm, good, comfortable, pretty, looking fantastic. Of course, for both of them, some of the time this is "Shallan" speaking and some of the time Veil. One on-the-nose comparison which Shallan makes is in Chapter 77 Stormshelter where she says Adolin is a warm sunrise, but sometimes she prefers the storm and rain to the sun (which is pretty obviously referencing Kaladin). (This is when she's bleeding a bit from "Shallan" to Veil so it highlights how those two personas want different guys, which Brandon said he wanted to emphasize.) So I don't think there's enough there for me to be convinced her direct analogy at the end of WoR has been flipped, but others could see it differently. [One] small point, Shallan drew a picture of Adolin in one of his new suits (also mentioned in Chapter 77), which is a very "fine art" drawing (portraiture). 14 hours ago, Greywatch said: Where Shallan was emotionally available in the chasms for the first comparison, Shallan makes a firm choice for the second comparison. The context of the situation changes the meaning of the words. Ok, let me see I can understand what you're saying here and how this relates to Kaladin. (Because we're trying to find a way for this love triangle to have some payoff for Kaladin in analyzing this.) In WoR, it was the beginning of his potential feelings for Shallan, so this was a way of seeing her not just as just a lighteyes but instead a real human. In OB, this was the end of his potential feelings for Shallan, so this was a way of reducing her to being a support person like Tien versus a romantic interest. Mention one - elevating Shallan to new status. Mention two - reducing Shallan to just friend status. Is this right? This still isn't character payoff for Kaladin IMO - he's not learning anything new, it's not doing anything to progress his character arc - but I can see how the context is a bit different. So I think I get what you're saying, but that doesn't get me closer to seeing how this is a reason for pages and pages of Kaladin's involvement in this love triangle. 15 hours ago, Greywatch said: I disagree because I neither think it's stereotypical or sexist, and yes, I very much do think it matters to many female readers that don't have to have a woman solving all of her issues completely isolated and alone. I, personally, am really bothered by that trope, because I've seen "the strong woman" trope used badly by many male writers who use it an excuse to not write a compelling story for a woman. Like, why care about a woman's issues, because she's got it handled. No need to slow down the plot, no need to try and understand what she's going through, the male love interest doesn't have to worry his little head about her issues because she's got it handled. I hate that so much. And on the flip side, I adore when male characters are written as empathetic and understanding, especially from the character who would be the worst version of the golden player boy in another, worse author's hands. I can understand your perspective, but I'll continue to insist it's not automatically sexist. So, I think you're still insisting when I'm saying agency and independence this means "completely isolated and alone" and that a male (or any other person) cannot be a part of the journey. I'm going to quote myself from above about how Dalinar had a lot of support, but that in the crucial moment, he had to make his decision for himself. To be clear (because this didn't come across last time), this isn't about Dalinar's issues in comparison to Shallan's issues, but about how Dalinar had a supportive romantic relationship which helped him get there though his partner wasn't guiding him to his ultimate moment of realization. I have no problem with Adolin supporting Shallan; I have a problem with him being the one to "see" Shallan - and that being the touchstone moment - versus Shallan seeing that for herself. Regardless of this, you're not going to solve the issue of how Brandon disparately treated his two male versus female main protagonists. You can look at a wider scope of characters, you can say you love reading about dependent women, but in the end, there is a difference which does play directly into societal stereotypes. But that doesn't have to bother you for the reasons you state! Quote One, my point on agency and independence does not in any way mean no romance or no support from others or having to be all alone in the world. In fact, Dalinar is a good example of this. Navani is crucial to Dalinar's ability to resist Odium IMO. Navani is there for him when he is broken down in Part 4, she supports him, she picks up the pieces when he cannot, after TC she runs down and shoos away Kaladin and Lopen to be the one who is there with him. Dalinar is very much not alone in life, and he is dependent on his partner Navani in many ways. But when it comes to the crucial moment when Dalinar has to make the decision of whether or not he will give into Odium, Dalinar is making that decision alone. This mirrors what is necessary for true mental health progress. You can have everyone around you telling you that you are worthy or that you shouldn't do drugs, but in the end what matters is not what others tell you or guide you to, but that you yourself believe you are worthy and you yourself have the strength to resist drugs. Support networks are amazing and crucial, but it's still your realization/decision/belief that matters This isn't what happens to Shallan; instead of Shallan coming to her own realization "that's the one", it's Adolin's hand squeeze that points out to Shallan "that's the one." So, in shorthand, this issue is not that Shallan is in a romantic relationship or that she has support from a romantic partner, it's that she didn't make the crucial realization herself, but instead had someone do it for her. 15 hours ago, Greywatch said: My basic point is that Shallan doesn't have lines about, wow I'm so glad I'm marrying Adolin because he tells me what I hear, I'm so glad to marry someone who helps me deal with my issues. They have a strong emotional moment where Adolin is there for Shallan during a critical moment; and then in a separate scene, Shallan ignores Kaladin and chooses Adolin; and then in a separate scene Shallan has the scene about reflecting on the upcoming marriage. They're all important to the settling of the relationship, but it's not like it's in the text that Shallan is marrying him because she feels dependent on him. Even with the "without you I fade" line (which was played for laughs one sentence later) that's not how Shallan treats it and it's not how the narrative treats it. What scene do you see as Shallan asking Adolin for help? Once I know where you're coming from with that, I can address if I see it connected to the marriage. (I don't know your starting point, so I can't hope to understand it from your perspective!) 7
Guest Posted January 15, 2018 Posted January 15, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: So I don't think there's enough there for me to be convinced her direct analogy at the end of WoR has been flipped, but others could see it differently. [One] small point, Shallan drew a picture of Adolin in one of his new suits (also mentioned in Chapter 77), which is a very "fine art" drawing (portraiture). To add to that, the picture of Kaladin, that she had drawn is described as: Quote Shallan paused, looking at the doodle she’d been doing. Actually, it was a bit more complex than a doodle. It was . . . kind of a full sketch of Kaladin’s face, with passionate eyes and a determined expression. Jasnah had noticed a creationspren in the form of a small gemstone that had appeared on the top of her page, and Shallan blushed, shooing it away. A sketch is normally a rapidly executed freehand drawing that is not usually intended as a finished work. A bit more rugged and rough. Add to that the passionate eyes and determined expression. It works as an allusion to being something more natural. Not fine art, not perfect, but real. And I, for one, think, that Shallan is spot on with her descriptions of Kaladin. Kaladin is a force of nature. He is determined and he doesn't stop. He is passionate of what he does, sometimes to a fault. And he is hard to change. Edited January 15, 2018 by SLNC
Popular Post Zoja Posted January 16, 2018 Popular Post Posted January 16, 2018 Hello everyone! This is my first post to this discussion (it's actually my first post to any discussion, ever). These 80 pages have been a joy to read and they really helped me with my »Stormlight Archive-withdrawal syndrome«. You guys gave some very detailed insight and analysis of the books! When I speak of my opinion it is not my wish to change anyone's mind about the way they perceive the events of the book – since I know my own mind would also be (almost) impossible to change. Also, this is just my very personal and very subjective opinion, not a fact. So chill I believe BS created a very interesting romance, in some places so subtle, you barely notice it. I am talking about the Kaladin-Shallan connection. I never once doubted that they have a strong one, and the way BS veiled it seems quite masterful to me. The little hints about what (I believe) they are going to share in the future are everywhere and these hints have all been thoroughly discussed in this thread. Just a couple of things that were very subtle, but somehow really stuck in my mind after reading OB: - putting Kaladin on the first place when talking to Wit. Quote »Who came with you to the city?« »Kaladin. Adolin. Elhokar. Some of our servants.« There is absolutely no reason to put Kaladin first in this sequence, as Dreamstorm (I think) already mentioned. She did though, giving the impression that Kaladin (not Adolin or Elhokar) is the person in the forefront of her mind, whether she admits this to herself or not (note that just a couple of chapters before this scene she actually tells us that Kaladin has »a way of sticking in people's heads«). It is also important to note that this scene with Wit is one of those scenes where I perceived Shallan as the most real her; Wit has that effect on her, maybe because he seems to know her or/and maybe because he has known her for a very long time. She says herself: »The persona…fled once you recognized me.« She was talking about the Veil persona (she was wearing Veil's clothes), but it seems to me all personas fled once Wit recognized her. In fact, Shallan acts like a little girl when talking to Wit, full of amazement and awe before this enigmatic being. Quote Shallan blushed. She felt like a girl nervously showing her first drawing to her tutor. Quote She trembled, looking into those blue eyes. Shadows played within them. Shapes moved and were worn down by time. Boulders became dust. Mountains became hills. Rivers changed course. Seas became deserts. »Storms,« she wispered. »When I was young…« he said. »Yes?« »I made a vow.« Shallan nodded, wide-eyed. »I said I'd always be there when I was needed.« »And you have been?« »Yes.« She breathed out. They continue the conversation, and from the little girl she »transforms« into a witty scholar with a very sharp mind. Their exchange becomes very entertaining, both of them using their celver minds in a fast-paced dialogue. She radiates self-confidance and intellect in the continuation of this scene, but she is also vulnerable and, as we see just a little later, full of purpose. Quote »I want to learn to be like you,« Shallan said, feeling silly as she said it. »No you don't.« »You're funny, and charming, and –» »Yes, yes. I'm so storming clever that half the time, even I can't follow what I'm talking about.« »− and you change things, Wit. /…/ I want to be able to do that. I want to be able to change the world.« Whatever the reason, she seems very open when talking to him. She shows us what she could become, when she is whole. We see all of her aspects blending – the little girl, the scholar, the brave Radiant who wishes to change the world, the self-confident Shallan on a mission, and even the polite Vorin girl who says that »selflesness is a Vorin virtue«. For me, this real Shallan is beautiful, complex, pretty badass and very entertaining to read. So, to sum it up, in this state of mind, where Shallan is being herself, she is also putting Kaladin first, which is, in my opinion, a very strong, yet subtle indication of her feelings. You can call this digging for things I wish were there, but I rather look at it as a nicely veiled »thumbs-up« to Shalladin crew Little hints like that is what I like most about the Shallan-Kaladin connection. Even more than the obvious ones. - the »mentally direct« vs. "brilliant" Quote »Maybe I’m one of those punchy guys.« Adolin stopped in place and grinned at Kaladin. »Did you just say ‘punchy guys’?« »You know, ardents who train to fight unarmed.« »Hand to hand?« »Hand to hand.« »Right,« Adolin said. »Or ‘punchy guys,’ as everyone calls them.« Kaladin met his eyes, then found himself grinning back. »It’s the academic term.« »Sure. Like swordy fellows. Or spearish chaps.« »I once knew a real axalacious bloke,« Kaladin said. »He was great at psychological fights.« »Psychological fights?« »He could really get inside someone’s head.« Adolin frowned as they walked. »Get inside…Oh!« Adolin chukled, slapping Kaladin on the back. »You talk like a girl sometimes. Um… I mean that as a compliment.« I do love this conversation (especially the »punchy guys« part), becuase it shows us the growing friendship and conncection between Adolin and Kaladin, which is cute. However, this exchange is inconsequential for the story and it certainly didn't have to include Adolin not immediately »getting« what Kaladin was trying to say. Therefore, while giving us the view on Kaladin-Adolin bonding, I also think that this dialogue was giving us an example of the »mental-directness« of Adolin that Shallan mentions before. At the same time I think it is meant to show us the sophistication of Kaladin - using the fancy word »axalacious«, which kind of made me go »Whaaat?« (English is not my first language, so I didn't even realize that Kaladin made up a very witty pun, which takes quite a couple of seconds to »get«; however, I'm sure Shallan would get the joke immediately). It made me think - why would a bridgeboy use a word like that? I really don't mean to sound rude to Adolin (I mean, I didn't get the joke either), but I simply think this conversation meant to show us his shortcoming, or at least something Shallan, as a scholar, might consider a shortcoming. And to make it even worse for Adolin, BS showed us, in the same conversation, how Kaladin does not lack in this area at all. It is a conversation you can percieve as multi-layered: the bonding, the joking-around, Adolin actually being really smart and funny, but then, at the end, not quite reaching the same level as Kaladin. - There are of course plenty of other much stronger hints throughout the book, which you all covered already, the most obvious being »the girl who stood up«, Shallan enjoying flying in the wind and Shallan »leering« at Kaladin on the ship. The latter is, for me, another moment when Shallan seems to be her: standing solidly on both two feet, indicating Veil's confidence; but at the same time wanting to draw the scene before her eyes, indicating Shallan's artistic nature – which Veil totally lacks. What will the future books bring? No idea, but I strongly believe that the story of Shallan and Kaladin is only beginning. Hey, I could be totally wrong, but then again, where's the fun in certainty? 18
Seize she/her Posted January 16, 2018 Posted January 16, 2018 (edited) @Zoja Oh so THAT's what it meant ! I remember laughing out loud at Adolin's comment, but like you the word "axalacious" confused me and I completely missed the joke. Without you I still wouldn't get it, so thanks! I'm curious as to how they'll translate that bit Edited January 16, 2018 by Seize 1
Rainier Posted January 16, 2018 Posted January 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Seize said: @Zoja Oh so THAT's what it meant ! I remember laughing out loud at Adolin's comment, but like you the word "axalacious" confused me and I completely missed the joke. Without you I still wouldn't get it, so thanks! I'm curious as to how they'll translate that bit I just got this now by saying aloud, but is the term axalacious supposed to sound like salacious? Ak-salacious? Really lusty axe-men? Obviously axes are good for getting inside someone's head. The nonsense word threw me for a moment until I recognized this pun. It's about as good as I can expect from Brandon. 1
wotbibliophile Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 I think Kaladin realizing Shallan reminds him of Tien both in the chasm scene and at the end of OB is exactly the same realization in both scenes. In both scenes he thinks Shallan and Tien shine (i.e. they make their own light), are optimistic, and lighten his burdens. Kaladin is more cheerful when he is with them. This is something he likes about both of them. It does not have to be romantic; it is just something he likes about both of them. I also think the realization at the end of OB reads like this is new information. This reminds me of WOT. Spoiler!!!! Sanderson finished the WOT series. He wrote a scene where Perrin learns that saidin has been cleansed. This was a scene that already happened in a previous book (I’m pretty sure it was written by Jordan). Sanderson admitted it was a mistake that happened because it had been some time since he had last read the series. Notice Sanderson was not the only one responsible for this scene being published. Many people read early drafts of the book. The book went through the editing process and the mistake still ended up being published. And obviously Sanderson is not the only author to forget things or to make mistakes. This happens to all authors. I think it is possible that Kaladin comparing Shallan to Tien at the end of OB reads like new information because Sanderson forgot he had already written this. Not a certainty, just a possibility. As far as how Kaladin and Shallan think of each other. I really like it. They both have idealized perceptions of the other but this is after having very negative ideas about each other and after learning more about the other. Their ideas about each other changed a lot. Shallan calls Kaladin hateful during the chasm scene and late in WOR she is drooling over him. I think about Patrick Rothfuss’ line in Wise Man’s Fear: Quote “We love what we love. Reason does not enter into it. In many ways, unwise love is the truest love. Anyone can love a thing because. That’s as easy as putting a penny in your pocket. But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.” I love this quote. I feel sure Kaladin sees Shallan’s flaws and loves them too. And I love that. It is harder to tell with Shallan since she disguises what she feels so well, but I think she sees Kaladin’s flaws as well and is still infatuated with him. In the chasms Shallan is very aware of how grumpy and brooding Kaladin is. So much so that she calls him hateful and decides he hates everyone. Later Shallan will go on and on about brooding eyes so maybe she loves that about him. I think Kaladin and Shallan see the best in each other. They know neither is perfect but they see the best. Kaladin and Shallan are both down on themselves (more than they need to be. They each focus on their failures and not on the fact that they tried very hard to do something good.) Kaladin and Shallan focus on the good in the other and admire it. They admire how hard the other tries and like that about the other. I really like this and I think they are pretty close to the truth. The more positive way they see the other is more accurate then the negative way they see themselves. 13
Vissy Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 Quote “We love what we love. Reason does not enter into it. In many ways, unwise love is the truest love. Anyone can love a thing because. That’s as easy as putting a penny in your pocket. But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.” As an aside, I've always found this a very vacuous quote. Is it true love to love your husband's alcoholism? On Shallan specifically, I don't think it has developed to love between her and Kaladin. The only pairing that has a claim to love right now in that triangle is Shadolin 1
Info_Drone-0451 he/him Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 14 minutes ago, Vissy said: As an aside, I've always found this a very vacuous quote. Is it true love to love your husband's alcoholism? I quite agree. I think I understand the sentiment of "Take the good with the bad" but at some point the good have to outweight the bad. Or "Take your partner flaws and all". I can see that but there're flaws and flaws, and what everyone can take is different. Some things though are much more serious and need to be dealt with, and I don't think that we've seen that from Adolin and Shallan. All the issues seem to be handwaved away and overcompensated with displays of affection. 21 minutes ago, Vissy said: On Shallan specifically, I don't think it has developed to love between her and Kaladin. In my opinion the feelings are there, or the at least the potential for such emotions, but both parties seem unwilling to explore them further, and probably for the better as neither is in the right state of mind to be in a relationship or make choices regarding romantic partners. 30 minutes ago, Vissy said: The only pairing that has a claim to love right now in that triangle is Shadolin Maybe "love" is kinda a strong word. Infatuation is better I think. Also, I believe infatuation fits both pairings at the current time. But I think Shallan and Kaladin have the right conditions and potential to be led into something deeper. 2
Vissy Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, DimChatz said: I quite agree. I think I understand the sentiment of "Take the good with the bad" but at some point the good have to outweight the bad. Or "Take your partner flaws and all". I can see that but there're flaws and flaws, and what everyone can take is different. Some things though are much more serious and need to be dealt with, and I don't think that we've seen that from Adolin and Shallan. All the issues seem to be handwaved away and overcompensated with displays of affection. Yeah, I don't think Shallan has done good by Adolin so far. She's kept several very important secrets from him and doesn't always seem to treat him like an equal (intentionally talking over his head) and so on. I hope this will be amended later. 9 minutes ago, DimChatz said: In my opinion the feelings are there, or the at least the potential for such emotions, but both parties seem unwilling to explore them further, and probably for the better as neither is in the right state of mind to be in a relationship or make choices regarding romantic partners. The potential is there, but both Shallan and Kaladin have put a lid on their emotions as of the end of OB. Maybe that means the emotions will die, or maybe not. From my experience, you can't kill strong emotions like that so easily. Not addressing this will come back to bite them. 9 minutes ago, DimChatz said: Maybe "love" is kinda a strong word. Infatuation is better I think. Also, I believe infatuation fits both pairings at the current time. But I think Shallan and Kaladin have the right conditions and potential to be led into something deeper. Yeah. Shalladin usually comes with the assumption that Shadolin will fail catastrophically at some point, though, so unless Adolin dies or they have a divorce for some reason or another...
Info_Drone-0451 he/him Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, Vissy said: Shalladin usually comes with the assumption that Shadolin will fail catastrophically at some point, though, so unless Adolin dies or they have a divorce for some reason or another... I don't necessarily assume that the marriage will fail. Just that the potential for failure are there, because in my view that marriage doesn't have the healthiest of foundations. And it doesn't have to be catastrophic or dramatic. Both parties could decide that they may have made a rush decision, because when people are young and not in the right frame of mind to make such serious choices (i.e. angry when talking about Kaladin and Tarah) they make mistakes... 10 minutes ago, Vissy said: The potential is there, but both Shallan and Kaladin have put a lid on their emotions as of the end of OB. Maybe that means the emotions will die, or maybe not. From my experience, you can't kill strong emotions like that so easily. Not addressing this will come back to bite them. Yeah, I agree. Introducing such emotions and then dismissing them with a wave of the hand would definitely feel disappointing for me and their inttroduction unnecessary in the first place. 17 minutes ago, Vissy said: Yeah, I don't think Shallan has done good by Adolin so far. She's kept several very important secrets from him and doesn't always seem to treat him like an equal (intentionally talking over his head) and so on. The not so sturdy foundation I was talking about before and that have been describe here before, in great length. 18 minutes ago, Vissy said: I hope this will be amended later. I hope these things, along with the strong emotions between Shallan and Kaladin, are at least addressed by the characters involved and maybe some others as well. 1
Guest Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, DimChatz said: Maybe "love" is kinda a strong word. Infatuation is better I think. Also, I believe infatuation fits both pairings at the current time. But I think Shallan and Kaladin have the right conditions and potential to be led into something deeper. I think, that this is quite right. I'd go even further and say, that there is not a lot of emotional attraction between Adolin and Shallan. He worries for her, yes, but that he does for everyone close to him. I never get the impression, that he wants to understand what makes her tick. (Like, when she confesses Veil and Radiant to him, he doesn't even ask about it again and shifts the conversation to him killing Sadeas) Vice versa, Shallan always swoons over his good looks and strong arms, but never really wants to understand his emotions. But that is just my impression. The sexual attraction (hell, even tension at this point) is undeniably there though. The question is, how fulfilling will that be in the long run? Are they doing, what most teenagers do when they have their first real relationships (ok, Adolin is out of his teens, but you catch my drift) and mistake lust for love, especially Shallan? Regarding the "flaw" thingies @wotbibliophile threw in: What I find so wonderful about it is, that what Shallan earlier perceives as hatefulness in Kaladin, she later sees as what it really is: passion, determination, focus and unbridled emotion, barely held back. And she is attracted to exactly that. Vice versa, what Kaladin earlier sees as lighteyed arrogance, he later correctly perceives as what it really is: just a shell and behind it is a survivor. And he is attracted to exactly that. He admires that. And here I see the big difference between Shalladin and Shadolin: Even though, Shallan and Kaladin later acknowledge the physical attractiveness, they both possess, they first form an emotional connection, without even trying to force it. Something, that Adolin and Shallan just don't have. Edited January 17, 2018 by SLNC
Dreamstorm Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Vissy said: Quote “We love what we love. Reason does not enter into it. In many ways, unwise love is the truest love. Anyone can love a thing because. That’s as easy as putting a penny in your pocket. But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.” As an aside, I've always found this a very vacuous quote. Is it true love to love your husband's alcoholism? I totally disagree, I'm with @wotbibliophile that this is a beautiful quote. To me, real love is to love someone through their flaws and faults and to see those imperfections as part of that person, the person who you love. You don't get to pick and choose the good things of a person and just love those parts; to really love someone, you have to love the bad things, or else you don't love the whole person. You can of course support your partner's fight against a disease (alcoholism), but your love for them (ideally) should be the same whether they are in the throes of an addictive episode or 5 years sober. I don't think a lot of people live up to this ideal, but this does seem, to me, what love should be. Btw, I think Navani and Dalinar is a good example of this. Navani doesn't question her love for Dalinar, her wanting to be with him, or that he is still the man she knows he is when he regresses into alcoholism. I attribute this steadfast love as part of the reason Dalinar was able to stand up to Odium. He had someone who was there when he stumbled, who would be there when he picked himself up and tried to do better. That is very powerful. 2 hours ago, DimChatz said: Maybe "love" is kinda a strong word. Infatuation is better I think. Also, I believe infatuation fits both pairings at the current time. But I think Shallan and Kaladin have the right conditions and potential to be led into something deeper. I like to look at this from a "Brandon-speak" perspective. (I think my personal threshold for "love" is much higher than his.) He told us that "Shallan" loves Adolin and Veil loves Kaladin in the reddit post. I think we are supposed to see Kaladin saying he doesn't love Shallan as him avoiding his feelings (which he's been doing allllll book), so my guess is Kaladin is Brandon-speak in love with Shallan. As you all know, I have strong feelings about the fact Adolin is not in love with Shallan (Brandon-speak love or else wise) due to his lack of thinking about and even noting Shallan's existence. So the way I see it, since Brandon also confirmed that realShallan is underneath her masks, realShallan is in love with both Kaladin and Adolin, but only Kaladin actually returns her feelings. Of course, Kaladin is repressing those feelings for Shallan, just like realShallan is repressing those feelings for Kaladin (onto Veil), and Adolin is committing to Shallan anyway because that's what is expected of him. A total mess! 1 hour ago, SLNC said: What I find so wonderful about it is, that what Shallan earlier perceives as hatefulness in Kaladin, she later sees as what it really is: passion, determination, focus and unbridled emotion, barely held back. And she is attracted to exactly that. Vice versa, what Kaladin earlier sees as lighteyed arrogance, he later correctly perceives as what it really is: just a shell and behind it is a survivor. And he is attracted to exactly that. He admires that. This is really beautiful. In the two "hating each other" scenes where Shallan is slammed for her lighteyed arrogance, she really is just trying to survive (fit in with Tyn who essentially has her captive, ingratiate herself with the Kholins as she has nothing else in the world besides that connection.) 11 hours ago, wotbibliophile said: I also think the realization at the end of OB reads like this is new information. [....] I think it is possible that Kaladin comparing Shallan to Tien at the end of OB reads like new information because Sanderson forgot he had already written this. Not a certainty, just a possibility. I would be disappointed if this was the case - it was only a book ago! But agreed authors are fallible and that's the big fear; this was supposed to be a great love story with Shallan and Adolin that just didn't work out on the page. 5
Vissy Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said: I totally disagree, I'm with @wotbibliophile that this is a beautiful quote. To me, real love is to love someone through their flaws and faults and to see those imperfections as part of that person, the person who you love. You don't get to pick and choose the good things of a person and just love those parts; to really love someone, you have to love the bad things, or else you don't love the whole person. You can of course support your partner's fight against a disease (alcoholism), but your love for them (ideally) should be the same whether they are in the throes of an addictive episode or 5 years sober. I don't think a lot of people live up to this ideal, but this does seem, to me, what love should be. Btw, I think Navani and Dalinar is a good example of this. Navani doesn't question her love for Dalinar, her wanting to be with him, or that he is still the man she knows he is when he regresses into alcoholism. I attribute this steadfast love as part of the reason Dalinar was able to stand up to Odium. He had someone who was there when he stumbled, who would be there when he picked himself up and tried to do better. That is very powerful. Wait, so you seriously think that true love includes loving your husband's alcoholism? That's tantamount to supporting abusive relationships, because "you just don't love enough / purely enough" if you feel like the relationship is a non-starter due to some flaw in your partner. Alcoholism isn't a disease, it's a destructive addiction that, yes, often has very horrible causes, but that doesn't somehow make it something that should be loved. It's something that can easily destroy a relationship for very good reasons, the reason why alcoholism is a deal-breaker isn't because people just don't love these people enough. We don't know what Navani thought about her relationship with Dalinar when he was a drunkard for a week. Maybe she did doubt her place. Moreover, she thinks there was a very good reason for his alcoholism, namely the death of Evi. That's just not the same thing at all. There's nothing beautiful about that quote for me, as in my eyes it's a vindication of abusive relationships and is more or less victim-blaming. Edited January 17, 2018 by Vissy
Rainier Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 37 minutes ago, Vissy said: Wait, so you seriously think that true love includes loving your husband's alcoholism? You're missing the point completely. The alcoholism is not separate and cannot be separated from the man. Whether you still love the whole man, despite alcoholism, is the question. Nobody loves the alcoholism because the alcoholism isn't a discrete object for love. It's part of a greater whole, and that type of love for the greater whole is what is rare and pure and perfect. 2
Korbin Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, Vissy said: Wait, so you seriously think that true love includes loving your husband's alcoholism? I would say that true love involves loving someone despite and through there flaws. Don't love your husbands alchoholism. Love your husband through the problem and help him overcome. That is what Navani did with Dalinar! 2
Dreamstorm Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Vissy said: Wait, so you seriously think that true love includes loving your husband's alcoholism? That's tantamount to supporting abusive relationships, because "you just don't love enough / purely enough" if you feel like the relationship is a non-starter due to some flaw in your partner. Alcoholism isn't a disease, it's a destructive addiction that, yes, often has very horrible causes, but that doesn't somehow make it something that should be loved. It's something that can easily destroy a relationship for very good reasons, the reason why alcoholism is a deal-breaker isn't because people just don't love these people enough. We don't know what Navani thought about her relationship with Dalinar when he was a drunkard for a week. Maybe she did doubt her place. Moreover, she thinks there was a very good reason for his alcoholism, namely the death of Evi. That's just not the same thing at all. There's nothing beautiful about that quote for me, as in my eyes it's a vindication of abusive relationships and is more or less victim-blaming. In response to what I bolded, that's twisting it around. You are the most important person in your life, so in a relationship, you need to first take care of you. So of course there can be relationships where flaws of your partner are so great that it is not healthy for you to be in that relationship. Of course it's OK to disengage from the relationship/not engage at all. (These can be some of the hardest things to do!) It's not about you needing to love someone more in order to cure someone of an ailment (addiction is a disease by the way, at least it is typically classified as a brain disorder*), but it's about loving all of a person, flaws and warts and diseases and all. It's easy to love a perfect person, or more typically, the idealized version of a person. It is hard to see all of the bad things and still love the person. That to me is pure love - knowing the bad things about someone in and out and still loving them. But that in no way means you need be with someone who has destructive flaws. You have to take care of yourself first and foremost. Off-topic on the above, but we have a Navani chapter when Dalinar is in the middle of his drunken episode. I think the quote below exemplifies her attitude; she is pissed that she has to be the one to keep it all together, but she knows that's what you do for someone you love. Quote She just had to give Dalinar time. Even if, deep down, a part of her was angry. Angry that his pain so overshadowed her growing fear for Elhokar and Adolin. Angry that he got to drink himself to oblivion, leaving her to pick up the pieces. But she had learned that nobody was strong all the time, not even Dalinar Kholin. Love wasn't about being right or wrong, but about standing up and helping when your partner's back was bowed. He would likely do the same for her someday. OB, Ch. 104, Strength Edit: I just went down a google rabbit hole on addiction as a disease vs. not a disease, and there's a lot of contentious debate! So I wasn't trying to start that there Edited January 17, 2018 by Dreamstorm 4
Info_Drone-0451 he/him Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) I'm adding my two cents to this. What I think that @Dreamstorm is saying is that you don't have to love your partner's faults to love them. But you must recognise these faults and not dismiss or ignore them, and despite that choose to be with them. But you should be aware of how they might affect the relationship, when you're choosing to be with someone despite their flaws, and try to do your best to support your partner through it but not to, patronizingly, try to fix it for them. You have to be prepared to face struggles, not to expect that through love (a necessary condition, but not a sufficient one) all will be fine. It shows that you're confident enough in your feelings and that you know your partner well enough to help them overcome their issue, if indeed the issue is that serious that needs to be overcome (i.e someone can get used to having a messy partner but a gambling addiction isn't something to get accustomed to and ignore, but something to help overcome). If you aren't sure about any of that then, perhaps, it would be better to not be with them because a possible break up may exacerbate their condition. Let me know if I'm getting it wrong. Edited January 17, 2018 by DimChatz 1
insert_anagram_here Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 Each person has different predispositions about different flaws and intensities of such flaws, based on their own experiences and sometimes previous trauma. That's why different combinations of people are a better match as a couple than others. For example, a person might be okay of their partner's occasional alcoholism, if that said alcoholic person shows amends but relapses. But the same person might realize it is time to get a divorce if this alcoholism turns into violence towards anyone, including other family members. Later on in life, in future relationships, they might even treat the slightest trace of alcoholism as a deal breaker. Same goes for infidelity, gambling or unlawful activity. It just depends on the people involved. Since these flaws are not always present before marriage, but most of the time emerge years after the couple has been together, they usually lead to serious issues in the relationship. Sometimes the bond between the involved ones is strong enough to surpass these, sometimes it isn't. Yes, surpassing one of these great flaws together, makes the bond of love stronger but under no circumstances I do not believe a married person is obliged to deal with their partner's issues, that is why a divorce should always be an option. 2
Info_Drone-0451 he/him Posted January 17, 2018 Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said: but under no circumstances I do not believe a married person is obliged to deal with their partner's issues, that is why a divorce should always be an option. Oh, I agree. I didn't mean to imply that once you've made your choice you're stuck. Failure is always an option and at some point you should start caring for yourself. If you can't help your partner and the relationship has reached such a tipping point then yes, separation and divorce (depending on the nature of the relationship) is totally a valid choice. Edited January 17, 2018 by DimChatz 1
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