[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Only if I'm a bad person for pointing it out exactly because it's funny.

Imagine, Stormlight Archive on LSD. Talk about Stranger in a Strange Land.

Fear and Loathing in Alethkar

[DeployParachute]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

Fear and Loathing in Alethkar

Aaaand we've come full circle, complete with @SLNC 's avatar.  This thread is awesome!

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

Hey here's a funny thought I had while re-reading the interlude with the romantic ardent. It involves this passage.

Quote

“Wait. There are three different men this time?”

“Sequels always have to be bigger,” he said, then offered her the stack of pages back. “I’ll lend it to you.”

So what do you guys think are the chances that Radiant falls for Jasnah? Purely hypothetical, just a funny thought I had and thought to share it to lighten the mood.

[FuzzyWordsmith]

I'm still convinced that the three different men was a reference to Cultivation having to choose between Tanavast, Rayse and Hoid. I did a post about it way upthread, but they seem to fit the respective character of Sailor, Banker, and King's Wit.

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

4 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I'm still convinced that the three different men was a reference to Cultivation having to choose between Tanavast, Rayse and Hoid. I did a post about it way upthread, but they seem to fit the respective character of Sailor, Banker, and King's Wit.

By the Almighty I love this thread  so much! But I, uh..., didn't mean anything by it, I was trying to be funny... I should've guessed that somebody had already touched on it on a more serious note. As for the theory, I don't know... haven't considered it much, but maybe I will.. 

Edited November 27, 2017 by DimChatz

[FuzzyWordsmith]

5 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

By the Almighty I love this thread  so much! But I, uh..., didn't mean anything by it, I was trying to be funny... 

I get that, but I find it's made even funnier if that turns out to be the case. If you think about it, there are noticeable parallels. And that would be a great reunion is Hoid and Cultivation were together on screen. It shows how paranoid Sanderson has made me if that is the sort of thing that I can't stop thinking of XD

Edited November 27, 2017 by FuzzyWordsmith

[mariapapadia she/her]

2 hours ago, WesHenry said:

Sanderson in one of his classes explained that if he ever wrote a love triangle he’d write it like Twilight. Where there’s a pull and a struggle, but you never really doubt that it’s gonna be Edward who gets the girl, that way even the people who wanted the girl to get with the werewolf weren’t super disappointed because they never deep down truly believed she’ll be with anyone besides Edward. So I believe the “Kaladin and Shallan weren’t explored enough” thing was intentional. That way we’re never totally convinced she’ll end up with anyone besides Adolin. 

 

Funny you say this, because I've watched all of Brandon's lectures from 2011-2012 up to 2016( that I could find on youtube) and I don't remember him ever saying such a thing. But it would be nice if you could provide a link or a source, before me commiting to bet my firstborn on this. 

Meanwhile I'm just gonna leave this here.. If I dig deep enough I think I can find some Q&A that support the same idea, but for now the pressing matter of doing laundry is calling.. 

https://youtu.be/V9cdgE6FjRs?t=1h2m10s

Edited November 27, 2017 by mariapapadia

[DeployParachute]

9 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

Meanwhile I'm just gonna leave this here.. If I dig deep enough I think I can find some Q&A that support the same idea, but for now the pressing matter of doing laundry is calling.. 

https://youtu.be/V9cdgE6FjRs?t=1h2m10s

OH MY GOD! thank you so much for this link.  It is making me feel immeasurably better about the "resolution" of A-S-K in OB.  Listening to him describe the archetype that I was getting a feeling for back during WoR, but not quite understanding what it was or why I was liking it and seeing it play out was very therapeutic.  It makes me feel like no I'm not crazy for thinking that the initial tension between Shallan and Kaladin was something to applaud and get excited about as the beginning to something great.

[mariapapadia she/her]

10 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

OH MY GOD! thank you so much for this link.  It is making me feel immeasurably better about the "resolution" of A-S-K in OB.  Listening to him describe the archetype that I was getting a feeling for back during WoR, but not quite understanding what it was or why I was liking it and seeing it play out was very therapeutic.  It makes me feel like no I'm not crazy for thinking that the initial tension between Shallan and Kaladin was something to applaud and get excited about as the beginning to something great.

You're welcome! Yes, it is really interesting to hear him talking about ways to build characters and story and so on. Even though I have no connection to creative writing as a profession, it's still fascinating to see how he understands certain archetypes or plans the structure of the story. And once you read his books, those things become really obvious. I always come back to his lectures when I'm out of podcasts to listen to or I just need my Sanderson dose while working  If my firm knew what they are paying me for.. 

[insert_anagram_here]

45 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

Funny you say this, because I've watched all of Brandon's lectures from 2011-2012 up to 2016( that I could find on youtube) and I don't remember him ever saying such a thing. But it would be nice if you could provide a link or a source, before me commiting to bet my firstborn on this. 

Meanwhile I'm just gonna leave this here.. If I dig deep enough I think I can find some Q&A that support the same idea, but for now the pressing matter of doing laundry is calling.. 

https://youtu.be/V9cdgE6FjRs?t=1h2m10s

Yes, I did watch this actually a few months ago (even my browser resumed the playback from where I left it) and this video could partly be why I've been having such a strong foreshadowing feeling about the whole KSA thing. Thanks for posting this here, I'm sure it will bring hope to a lot of people.

[mariapapadia she/her]

5 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Yes, I did watch this actually a few months ago (even my browser resumed the playback from where I left it) and this video could partly be why I've been having such a strong foreshadowing feeling about the whole KSA thing. Thanks for posting this here, I'm sure it will bring hope to a lot of people.

well... to be fair I wouldn't put that much faith into it, cause while it gives some indications that we can relate to Kaladin/Shallan being buit, it also says that a romance shouldn't take that much time or space to be resolved, otherwise it can interfere with the character's main arc. That being said, I mostly posted it as an indication that Brandon's suggestion of creating tension in romance is not to go on the Twilight path, but make both of the romantic interests equally desireable. This is why I was so convinced this triangle could've had so much tension and angles to explore, but oh well.. 

Edited November 27, 2017 by mariapapadia

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

otherwise it can interfere with the character's main arc

clears throat

Well, I'd argue that that is the case with Shallan's main arc.

[mariapapadia she/her]

Hahah! I'm watching this interview with Brandon and the guy asks him :"so which one of the KR orders are the best dancers?" Brandon : "Edgedancers and Windrunners". I feel like this is him trolling 

[Awesomness]

7 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I also didn't get other foreshadowing elements like situations where Shallan changes clothes in the streets of Kharbranth, wonders if "anyone" had ever seen her naked then "shivered in the wind's kiss".

Mind literally blown.

3 hours ago, WesHenry said:

drove me into being all about Adolin getting his girl. 

 

3 hours ago, WesHenry said:

Her overcoming Radiant and Veil to choose Adolin showed major growth and it was great to see. 

There is something in what you say and the way you say it that is throughly coherent in a disturbing way. Anyway, @WesHenry stay around and tell us a little more about your change of heart. Many here would have liked to change sides and buy Shadolin due to book evidence.

 

Regarding: Sanderson in one of his classes explained that if he ever wrote a love triangle he’d write it like Twilight.

 Shallan-Radiant-Veil conflict + Twilight kind of romance = My inner goddess is dancing. --> http://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/movies/a31028/57-things-anastasia-steeles-inner-goddess-does-in-fifty-shades-of-grey/ (Can´t believe I'm adding a 50shades reference)

Edited November 27, 2017 by Awesomness
clarifyed something

[FuzzyWordsmith]

3 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

3 hours ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

Sanderson in one of his classes explained that if he ever wrote a love triangle he’d write it like Twilight.

 Shallan-Radiant-Veil conflict + Twilight kind of romance = My inner goddess is dancing. --> http://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/movies/a31028/57-things-anastasia-steeles-inner-goddess-does-in-fifty-shades-of-grey/ (Can´t believe I'm adding a 50shades reference)

Ummm, I didn't say that, I'm pretty sure. Misquote? @Awesomness 

[Awesomness]

 

1 minute ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

Ummm, I didn't say that, I'm pretty sure. Misquote? @Awesomness 

I think I quoted you quoting that... sorry!

[Ailvara]

Wow, I stopped posting here, because I barely kept up with reading xD Well, that plus getting through acceptance phase (or maybe still denial, because as I acknowledge this resolution, I still think it's a partial one). Moving on.

2 hours ago, WesHenry said:

Sanderson in one of his classes explained that if he ever wrote a love triangle he’d write it like Twilight. Where there’s a pull and a struggle, but you never really doubt that it’s gonna be Edward who gets the girl, that way even the people who wanted the girl to get with the werewolf weren’t super disappointed because they never deep down truly believed she’ll be with anyone besides Edward. So I believe the “Kaladin and Shallan weren’t explored enough” thing was intentional. That way we’re never totally convinced she’ll end up with anyone besides Adolin. 

Oh wow, I LOLed hard on this one. Now bear with me here, I almost had a heart attack when seeing "Twilight", but I've got a feeling that some people here stopped reading after the "T" word. And this one aspect that he got out of Twilight is actually good for this story. Because it means, that whatever romance he throws at us, he intends to make it relatively small, (at least not-un)satisfying and without all the "will they won't they" or false promises. What Twilight screwed up as a romance is actually good for a non-romance novel so please don't faint.

Now when you look at us, so far he might have miserably failed; especially when you see the survey about who Shallan's going to end up with, it's 50/50. Hah, whatever, I think it's more exciting that way - ofc as long as it ends properly... My personal expectation/hope here is, that even though this is a 50/50 now, by the end of the story we will all be at the same page with regard to who Shallan should and will end up with. Actually, we're half there atm, as almost nobody would like her with Kaladin in the state that she is now. The opinions differ mostly on whether this should be the end or the journey. And as I say it's the journey, I think our preferences will continue to change accordingly in the next books and relatively few readers will be left truly disappointed with the finale of all this.

Now not yet leaving this topic, but adding:

1 hour ago, mariapapadia said:

Meanwhile I'm just gonna leave this here.. If I dig deep enough I think I can find some Q&A that support the same idea, but for now the pressing matter of doing laundry is calling.. 

https://youtu.be/V9cdgE6FjRs?t=1h2m10s

I can only see this as a further confirmation for Shalladin - sorry I'm not sorry. The Shallan and Kaladin first meeting is a textbook example from the trope discussed in the video. So he puts them into a romance trope, and one that he praises, and long before she even meets Adolin. Now I would be willing to admit this might be playing with the trope, but not after how he states in this first quote that he would not like to mislead us. Really, I could argue about who she has better interactions with in OB, but WoR is much clearer; so if we're after what should seem like the endgame from the start, my vote goes again to Shalladin.

Now I left this for the end only for the most persistent, because I'll be briefly getting back to Twilight comparisons (I read it back in middle school with guilty pleasure; that is probably not the worst thing about the 15-year old me anyway, you can shoot, I'll live). Anyway, remembering that story better than I usually care to admit, I can't help but notice how is terms of both story structure and character traits, Adolin is more in the position of Jacob (the safer choice, explored in the middle book).

(I don't know which jobs are still available on the ship, but I'm quite good with knots)

[Harbour he/him]

1 hour ago, mariapapadia said:

 

https://youtu.be/V9cdgE6FjRs?t=1h2m10s

I listened to this video and BS said the following:

"You can execute the method of "opposites attract" which works well or characters can have similar interests so they enhance each other when they are together".

Would i make a mistake if say that BS used BOTH methods to do Shalladin?

In many senses Kaladin and Shallan are the opposites, but we really see that both of them has if not common interests but the common view on many various things.

Just remembered the scene in the WoR where Shallan draw the piece of the rock. Adolin went away, not interested and Kaladin stayed to demonstrate his interest in Shallan's picture and rock's formation. There are couple of those in OB too, where both Shallan and Kaladin demonstrate the similar interest in some things. And they enhance each other really good. Shallan brainstorms usually came when Kaladin is talking around her.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Harbour

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

16 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

(I don't know which jobs are still available on the ship, but I'm quite good with knots)

If we're still picking roles can I be quartermaster? I believe I'd be half-decent at keeping the boooks and supplying the ship. Also, what kind of ship is it? Old sailing with a mast, steamboat, or modern cruiseliner? I vote for old-timey sailing. Also if you put me in a boat give me a big hat and a bucket... I believe you can understand why...

Edited November 27, 2017 by DimChatz

[mariapapadia she/her]

8 minutes ago, Harbour said:

I listened to this video and BS said the following:

"You can execute the method of "opposites attract" which works well or characters can have similar interests so they enhance each other when they are together".

Would i make a mistake if say that BS used BOTH methods to do Shalladin?

In many senses Kaladin and Shallan are the opposites, but we really see that both of them has if not common interests but the common view on many various things.

Just remembered the scene in the WoR where Shallan draw the piece of the rock. Adolin went away, not interested and Kaladin stayed to demonstrate his interest in Shallan's picture and rock's formation. There are couple of those in OB too, where both Shallan and Kaladin demonstrate the similar interest in some things. And they enhance each other really good.

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

I can only see this as a further confirmation for Shalladin - sorry I'm not sorry. The Shallan and Kaladin first meeting is a textbook example from the trope discussed in the video. So he puts them into a romance trope, and one that he praises, and long before she even meets Adolin. Now I would be willing to admit this might be playing with the trope, but not after how he states in this first quote that he would not like to mislead us. Really, I could argue about who she has better interactions with in OB, but WoR is much clearer; so if we're after what should seem like the endgame from the start, my vote goes again to Shalladin.

 

While I do agree that the "braided roses method" is textbook Shalladin and the "make the characters go on a trip/quest together" also supports that clain and Brandon himself says it's fun to read about character that "rub eachother the wrong way", there is also the part of him saying how real life relationship works + doing mundane stuff together which implies Shallan and Adolin. 

As I have said before, I think a strong case can be made for Shallan and Adolin as well and.. yeah some of us will read either of the pairs with more or less chemistry. I liked them both for diffent reasons that have been rehearsed by others through the thread. 

That being said, I don't think the Kaladin and Shallan angle will be explored more and personally, even though it's fun and they have chemistry, I am a bit wary of the mental gymnastics that would require and the drama it would create. If at one point I thought that Kaladin and Adolin could still be friends despite Shallan choosing one or the other, Shallan going back to Kaladin after she married Adolin, would be wrong for multiple reasons and I think that would really break the friendship between Kaladin and Adolin, which I don't want to see. Plus if for some reason Shallan discovers that Kaladin is her true love ( beyond how cheesy that will be), I think it would be more realistic for her to realise that she blew her chance when she rushed into something else. At this point I only pray that this is not the end of Shallan's mental problems and her recovery will be realistic and won't have Adolin as a main plotpoint. I don't feel like there is more room for Kaladin there and no point, since Shallan is still not well. 

[Ailvara]

35 minutes ago, Harbour said:

I listened to this video and BS said the following:

"You can execute the method of "opposites attract" which works well or characters can have similar interests so they enhance each other when they are together".

Would i make a mistake if say that BS used BOTH methods to do Shalladin?

In many senses Kaladin and Shallan are the opposites, but we really see that both of them has if not common interests but the common view on many various things.

Just remembered the scene in the WoR where Shallan draw the piece of the rock. Adolin went away, not interested and Kaladin stayed to demonstrate his interest in Shallan's picture and rock's formation. There are couple of those in OB too, where both Shallan and Kaladin demonstrate the similar interest in some things. And they enhance each other really good. Shallan brainstorms usually came when Kaladin is talking around her.

This is absolutely right. I will argue, that there are even more hints in this video.

One is how he doesn't want the main characters to end up together just because they're mains; not saying that he doesn't want for them to end up together at all, but that if he sees them as a potential romantic interest, he develops them as separate characters in the way that will make them actually right for each other. So I would align the way that Shallan and Kaladin deal with their respective classist prejudices to that, and also the way that they complement each other's faults (Shallan cheering him up and Kaladin inspiring her to be surprisingly sincere with him). Quite possibly more, but I should study.

Another device he mentions around 1:15:00 is to make 3 scenes where it goes well, then 3 scenes where it goes wrong. I wouldn't specifically look for the exact 3 scenes of either kind (or maybe there are?) but I'd roughly align WoR with the first bit and OB with the second.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Ailvara

[Dreamstorm]

45 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Oh wow, I LOLed hard on this one. Now bear with me here, I almost had a heart attack when seeing "Twilight", but I've got a feeling that some people here stopped reading after the "T" word.

This was me.  In fact I sort of became an un-fan for a second.  And then I listened to what @mariapapadia posted, and when he (nicely) says the Twilight romance was ridiculously unbelievable, I felt a little better.

45 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Now when you look at us, so far he might have miserably failed; especially when you see the survey about who Shallan's going to end up with, it's 50/50. Hah, whatever, I think it's more exciting that way - ofc as long as it ends properly... My personal expectation/hope here is, that even though this is a 50/50 now, by the end of the story we will all be at the same page with regard to who Shallan should and will end up with. Actually, we're half there atm, as almost nobody would like her with Kaladin in the state that she is now. The opinions differ mostly on whether this should be the end or the journey. And as I say it's the journey, I think our preferences will continue to change accordingly in the next books and relatively few readers will be left truly disappointed with the finale of all this.

I will be incredibly impressed if this happens.  On the Shalladin side, there's just so much foreshadowing, that if what we have now is all that comes of the love triangle, I can't imagine this crew being satisfied.  On the Shadolin side, I feel like there is SO MUCH hate for Shalladin.  (I actually only got involved on these forums in the first place after I read the books for the first time this summer, and in googling around I didn't understand the animosity towards the Kaladin/Shallan pairing, which seemed to be set up in WoR as the end game.  Still don't get it the extreme hatred.)  So yeah, I'm finding it hard to think only a few readers will be disappointed.  But I haven't been involved in other "shipping wars" to see how they resolve themselves....

That being said, I don't think the Kaladin and Shallan angle will be explored more and personally, even though it's fun and they have chemistry, I am a bit wary of the mental gymnastics that would require and the drama it would create. If at one point I thought that Kaladin and Adolin could still be friends despite Shallan choosing one or the other, Shallan going back to Kaladin after she married Adolin, would be wrong for multiple reasons and I think that would really break the friendship between Kaladin and Adolin, which I don't want to see. Plus if for some reason Shallan discovers that Kaladin is her true love ( beyond how cheesy that will be), I think it would be more realistic for her to realise that she blew her chance when she rushed into something else. At this point I only pray that this is not the end of Shallan's mental problems and her recovery will be realistic and won't have Adolin as a main plotpoint. I don't feel like there is more room for Kaladin there and no point, since Shallan is still not well. 

[I'm quoting @mariapapadia here since I don't know how to add a proper quote to a post I'm editing.]  This is where I'm at to, and at this point, I'm just praying the bolded part is what will come to pass.  Otherwise, I will likely always have serious issues with Shallan's plotline.  I hope we get some more payoff (in some manner) for the Kaladin stuff as well, but I will accept that as a romantic plotline misstep if not.

 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[GoddessIMHO]

I personally find this idea terrible (I love Shallan and Adolin) together: but we don't see a wedding, we only see a wedding about to happen.They could be attacked by Voidbringers, the Ghostbloods could pull Shallan at the last minute, any number of disasters could happen, this could be the prelude in the next book

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

On the Shadolin side, I feel like there is SO MUCH hate for Shalladin. 

Because of the Adolin cult. Sorry, but there isn't another word for it. He is literally flawless and worshipped.

Edited November 27, 2017 by SLNC

[analyticaposteriori]

4 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

I personally find this idea terrible (I love Shallan and Adolin) together: but we don't see a wedding, we only see a wedding about to happen.They could be attacked by Voidbringers, the Ghostbloods could pull Shallan at the last minute, any number of disasters could happen, this could be the prelude in the next book

I think Dalinar's last POV says Adolin's already married. I guess some horizontal tango's already going on by the time he pens down the title of Oathbringer.

Edited November 27, 2017 by analyticaposteriori