[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[FuzzyWordsmith]

2 minutes ago, straits said:

This nicely summarizes the disagreements I've had with several posters in this thread. I don't have much experience with Sanderson's other works (I follow the Stormlight novels exclusively), so the events at the end of OB parsed as something organic for me. I will be interested in what happens in the sequels, and my conclusion was that these emotional issues will be dealt with, given the promised breadth of the series - 7 more books of constant, idealized romance between Adolin and Shallan is something I can't imagine.

 

I just understood something in that case. The reason so many people consider this to not be organic is because it is different from Sanderson's other works. A lot of people here have read almost all, if not all, of his work. As a result, we see patterns that persist over a larger sample size. This may be the reason for our differences on the issues. I respect your opinion, and I think your reasoning is valid. However, there are people here who are used to thinking of the entire cosmere as his series, as opposed to just the Stormlight Archive. As a result, people are using reasoning related to his other series with SA, under the reasoning that it's all the same sequence at the end of the day.

[straits]

4 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I just understood something in that case. The reason so many people consider this to not be organic is because it is different from Sanderson's other works. A lot of people here have read almost all, if not all, of his work. As a result, we see patterns that persist over a larger sample size. This may be the reason for our differences on the issues. I respect your opinion, and I think your reasoning is valid. However, there are people here who are used to thinking of the entire cosmere as his series, as opposed to just the Stormlight Archive. As a result, people are using reasoning related to his other series with SA, under the reasoning that it's all the same sequence at the end of the day.

That makes sense. I've read of the parallels some people mentioned about there being some kind of love triangle in Mistborn as well, but from what I've understood, the characters in question are very different personalities. I'll need to re-read OB, but from what I recall, Shallan's mental state by the end of it is still deliberately emphasized as problematic by the author. I would be surprised that nothing comes of it in the sequel, but I did not expect this book to be self-contained in the sense that it has both the characterization of the problem (mental issues, their exacerbation) and the solution to the problem (these mental issues being fully resolved). 

Maybe these concerns could be summarized and presented to Sanderson. He seems like the opposite of certain other fantasy writers who refuse to disclose their inner workings. 

[Guest]

Just now, straits said:

That makes sense. I've read of the parallels some people mentioned about there being some kind of love triangle in Mistborn as well, but from what I've understood, the characters in question are very different personalities.

There was, but you're right. The characters in question are very different from K, S and A.

The main thing is, that Sanderson very often used this arranged marriage thing, which then always miraculously works out... Which I guess is our main worry, since it would not only diminish Shallan's character that has been built as strong and independent, but also reaffirm an author-related trope, which is always bad, because it reinforces predictability.

[PhineasGage]

Ye gods, I've tried to catch up with you all this morning and just has to respond to about 45 comments. It's amazing! That said I am still sick so it is going to take me a while to make my points. Please bear with me and my very fuzzy brain.

For those people interested in reading female protagnoists that manage family life etc in fantasy. I remembered that Anne McCaffrey's books (she has various series that you might like to try), do a very good job of this (in my opinion anway). She doesn't shy away from having her female characters approach all aspects of female life, indeed I seem to remember a scene of one of the protagonists going through labour.... can't remember who tho - sorry.

Note that she is a female author, not a male one. One of the issues with fantasy is that a great many authors in the genre are male and thus are at risk of portraying women poorly. I personally think that BS does a good job on female characters as a whole, but he is somewhat blinkered because he has not personally gone through being a woman and juggling the demands society makes on women. This is not a criticism of his writing but an acknowledgement that it is much harder to write something you don't know than something you do. How often are there still questions over working mums for example? We don't get the same issues raised with working dads. Whilst an individual male author might manage to write the broad spectrum of feminine issues, as a whole, the genre does it poorly. Indeed, there are relatively few female characters even in ChickLit that are mothers of young children or pregnant. And that is a genre specifically aimed at female readers and mostly written by female writers. Fantasy is still a primarily male sport - both in terms of its authorship and its readership. 

Anyway, on to the comments.

14 hours ago, Harbour said:

Ah, btw, maybe im too into symbolism and subtle hints but its interesting that Gavinor, the kid, was saved and brought to Kaladin by Kaladin's men and Shallan's men. Nice touch.

Lol, i love that you are looking for things like this, but this may be a step too far. On the other hand, keep going - I am massively loving the minor elements that may prove to be of interest going forward.

14 hours ago, maxal said:

I would even say making kids is really too easy.... In a world where fertility problems are being talked about so often, people forgot just how easy it can be to make kids.

As I said in a previous post, if people were to wait until they had resolved each and every one of their issues before making kids, then nobody would be having them. It is entirely possible and plausible, within the existing narrative, Shallan may want to have those kids with Adolin despite the fact she still needs to deal with her personas. I would even argue it would be the best thing to happen to her character if she does make this decision.

I disagree, though it essentially comes down to personal experience and whether we are optimisitc or pessimistic in our outlooks. 

I think it is a terrible risk to have a child because it might help. Firstly, I don't think anyone should look to motherhood as a means of fixing anything (whether it is mental health, self esteem, the need for unconditional love, or a failing marriage). It is not fair on the child. If having a kid does help, then I guess thats ok, but it is a huge risk to take and if it doesn't, then it could be construed as the kid being to blame for it not working. 

That said, if she is healthy/fixed and wants a kid because having one with Adolin is what she wants, then, as I said, more power to her. I have no issues with that as a concept.

What I am interested in is why you think her problems are resolved? My own personal take is that they aren't based on multiple aspects like the fact that she is still openly dissociating (Veil and Radiant still appear and talk about "we" at the wedding) and she says Adolin treats Veil like a drinking buddy. As I feel she is not in a stable place, I worry for the marriage and even more so for the idea of children. I would like you to explain what things in the text lead you to believe that she is better?

14 hours ago, maxal said:

And don't get me started on Dalinar who spent 1000 pages remembering the fact he burned his wife alive while not spending one paragraph thinking of what it meant for his sons. Not once did he think of how unfair he had been to ignore Renarin during all of his childhood nor how Evi's death made him reject Adolin because he looked too much like her. Not once is he thinking he deprived his boys of their mother and if it is hard for him to bear the guilt, he should at least have conscience of the people who suffered for his actions. It was all about him, his pain, his person, his own navel. So selfish.

Wow I disagree here (sorry). Dalinar is no more selfish than the next person with an addiction problem. He goes to the Nightwatcher  because he realises he is starting to "hate" his sons (nb it is clear he thinks about them both looking like Evi, not only Adolin) and needs to do something about it. There is an element of self-interest here, but it isn't the main inducement for him to travel. I also want to point out that his drinking is a form of self-medicating so that he doesn't become the monster the Thrill wants him to be. Its an unhealthy way to handle it, but it isn't an inherently selfish action. It might be considered "selfish" to want to block out the thoughts of how he has ruined his kids lives, but that is the nature of substance abuse. It doesn't make him selfish, so much as human. 

On top of that he spends most of tWoK worrying that his visions are possible madness are taking his House, sons and people down with him. He wants to abdicate in favour of Adolin so he doesn't destroy their lives. He is less worried about going mad than the ramifications of it. He then spends the next 2 books worrying about uniting Alethkar/Roshar so people will be ready for the Everstorm etc and humanity will survive. I fail to see how that is selfish. Finally, I also don't see how him not telling his sons that he killed their mother is selfish. They have (in theory) reconciled themselves with her death. Telling them would only assuage his own guilt and cause potential cracks in their relationship. A relationship that all of them value. Not only that, but he isn't the same man as he was then, he has been reforged into a better version of himself. Does telling them actually benefit anyone? Yes the truth is important, but the full details don't actually affect the way their relationships have flourished.

14 hours ago, maxal said:

As such, giving Shallan a child might actually make her take actions and think for someone else but herself. It make give more depth to her life and stop having her think her own problems are the center of the universe because this is kind of what kids do to people: suddenly your own problems are not so important anymore and whatever they are, you kid of have to deal with them because a little one depends on you doing it. Of course, life is not always as peachy, but within the scope of a narrative having been guilty of focusing too much onto the internal problems of those Radiants, not enough on what they mean for everyone else, the idea of motherhood becomes incredibly interesting, IMHO.

A healthy woman would react like this. An unhealthy one might not. On top of that, at 17, Shallan still has "teenage selfishness" to handle on top of a fragmented psyche. Forcing herself to think about other things is what got her into this mess in the first place. Note that she regularly forces ideas that make her uncomfortable to "the back of her mind" - she even talks about letting them "fester" there. I fail to see how her doing that because she has a kid is going to be good for her or a child?

14 hours ago, maxal said:

And of course, I trust the narrative to go beyond Shallan thinking she needs to breastfeed during a battle... This is slightly reducing to mothers thinking all they do with babies is breastfed them. I have a ton of real life examples of young mothers who accomplished much and amazing things despite the fact they had to breastfed which, honestly, doesn't take that much time. 

Hmm, I thought I was clear that I was joking. On the other hand, unless she has a wetnurse she will have to breastfeed a lot. And she will have to do so on demand. You can't exactly put it off when your kid is hungry and crying. If she has a kid and this issue isn't addressed then it is ignoring a matter that is inherent to motherhood of a baby. You were complaining about these issues not being handled in fantasy! Assuming that pregnancy on Roshar is approximately the same as on Earth, and she gets pregnant on her wedding night, then the kid will be somewhere around the equivalent of 2-3 Earth months old at the beginning of SA4. Kids that age typically nurse 7-8 times a day when on breast milk.I doubt formula is a thing on Roshar. Roshar days are slightly shorter than Earth days, but even if we use the 24hour day that is a feed approximately every 3 hours, with each feed lasting around the 10 minute mark. Can Shallan go on a spying mission in that time? Can she risk fighting/coercing another Unmade? If she does, then isn't she ignoring the responsibility to her kid? If she doesn't then we lose those arcs of her story as well as others that seem to have disappeared (eg Helaran). If BS can make it work then, as I said, I'm not inherently against it in principle, I am just not convinced that he can whilst keeping all readers engaged. 

14 hours ago, maxal said:

And you have just summarize why I find Jasnah so uninteresting... She is a character who evolves for herself, just herself without encumbering herself with other people nor bothering about what other people may think. Everything she does is for her own personal quest, her own navel and if she wants to protect her family, save the world and everything, she will resolutely do it while not bothering herself with menial things such as inter-personal relationships. 

 

Wait, so its not ok for me to think most authors do motherhood poorly and make it boring but its ok for you to think Jasnah is boring because she doesn't follow any of the female tropes? Isn't that an inherent contradiction? I would be happy to see motherhood done well, but as we've already said, there are limited options available to us. 

On top of that, how is Jasnah selfish?? She is clearly close with Renarin and doesn't kill him (despite it possibly) being the "logical" thing to do. She has clearly been around for him during his very difficult childhood (note that he talks about going round her and how they were both in Kholinar together). On top of that, all her efforts are going into learning stuff so that she can help save Roshar. She forms interpersonal relationships just fine. She had a tearful reunion with Navani, she hugs Renarin and refuses to kill him - even though he himself seemed to think it was not only inevitable but advisable, she is the one who goes to get Shallan in Thaylenah, she is close with Dalinar - as is mentioned multiple times throughout the books (eg he wishes she would retrun to the Shattered Plains in tWoK). Just because she isn't touchy-feely like Shallan or approachable like Adolin doesn't make her bad at personal relationships. She is not automatically classist (she seesm to interact with the other Veristalian historians just fine despite their very different backgrounds and is fair/respectful to Liss in WoR prologue). like many of her peers, she just doesn't tolerate fools well. It's perhaps not the nicest trait for a person to have but she needs some flaws or she wouldn't be believable.

14 hours ago, maxal said:

I personally think women can be all they want to do and yeah sometimes a mother is one of those things, but again, it rarely is the only thing. The idea Shallan would lose her agency or she would become the poster character for "female succumbing to peer pressure to have children" is a tad reducing. Mothers still have agency and to think they don't is not doing them a great disservice. Women have the right not to have children, but they also have the right to have them without being accused of falling to the stereotypes nor to be deemed uninteresting for it.

I definitely trust Brandon to pull it off.

This is true in real life. But the argument has not been "real life mothers lose agency" but that "fictional mothers tend to lose agency". I am not going to give any author a free pass on this until they have proven they have done it once. BS has been very close - see Silence in "Shadows for Silence" but a) that is a short story and (b) he only covers a very brief period of her life. We have years of Shallan's arc to go and multiple books, where she is likely to remain a main character. He might manage it, but he might not, and statistically, he is less likely to pull it off than he is to succeed. I'll be pleased if he does, but I'm not assuming he can until I see some evidence.

14 hours ago, maxal said:

 

 

Navani is the older female character whom had kids: we never see her during her younger years, nor do we ever read what it meant for her to have them. I would even argue her viewpoints were not even required in OB as I didn't get what they added to the narrative.

My whole point is Shallan will not lose her agency if she has children, women don't lose their agencies because they have children. People are free to make the choices they want and if some people want their life to focus 100% on their kids and to solely talk of nothing else, then it is their prerogative, but most people I know turned out being very different. For instance, how many mothers do you think are reading SA and engaging into the community? How many mothers do you think actually were beta readers? The answer: quite a few.

Navani is only about 50. It's hardly ancient. Implying that she is uninteresting because she is "old" is as bad as saying that Shallan "cannot" be interesting as a mother. On top of that, she is likely the closest thing Gavinor has to a mother. She is one of his closest relations after all. On top of that, she was only in Kholinar a few months ago and was likely interacting with him on a daily basis. He is completely alone now and Navani enjoys motherhood. Dalinar thinks that towards the end of WoR (she proetcts her clutch like a mother axehound iirc). She is the natural person to use to explore motherhood in Roshar because the kid is already a factor. As he is also heir, he plays an inherently important role for the books going forward. As she is consort to the high King of Urithiru, she has responsibilities to that and the idea of a working mum in Urithiru can be easily explored without risking losing screentime  on important plots like the Ghostblood/Sja-Anat arc. As each book can only be a finite length, not everything can be explored fully in a given story.

Regarding how many mothers are readers, it doesn't matter. Unless BS decides to pander entirely to his audience he should be writing according to his plot line, not the views and wishes of his readers. It is all well and good to get ideas about how things can be put so that they are more relevant/believable to people, but he shouldn't be using his beta readers to come up with plot lines for him. The story should be basically written when they give feedback. 

14 hours ago, maxal said:

This made me smile... There is a saying: small kids, small problems, big kids, big problems. Nothing is easier than a baby. It is when they are older it gets more complicated. Shallan will also have nannies and, just like Evi, she'd leave the little one to the nanny while she has other occupations. It really isn't such as narrative stop as many seems to think.

I think you misunderstood me. It isn't about the complexity it is about the time. Assuming your kids are healthy, a 12 year old simply doesn't need as much time as a baby and they are much more flexible when they get it. If they weren't we wouldn;t be able to send them to school. A breastfeeding mum in the middle ages couldn't go too far from her kid unless she had a wetnurse. If Shallan hands off her kid to a nanny/wetnurse all the time, then are we actually going to see the conflicts within the motherhood role explored? If we aren't, then why include it? 

13 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

 

I can actually see a wonderful way this could have gone... Shallan could have taken Wit's advice in Kholinar, and that could have been her breaking point.  Instead of seeing increased switching between personalities and reliance on that fracturing, she worked to coalesce her personalities.  Adolin is Adolin and supportive as always.  In the Battle of TC, Shallan speaks a truth (maybe "I am one person and I accept my past actions"?, ok that's more an oath than a truth, but I'm sure Brandon could find something) and gets her shardplate (man, I would love for a woman to be first to shardplate!), being our first Radiant to level 5.  Afterwards, Adolin has his same crisis of conscious about not being a Radiant, Shallan gives a version of her "don't be silly, I love you" speech, and then they get married.  I'm actually getting rather attached to this storyline!  ETA:  I think Shallan having a child and exploring motherhood in this option is fantastic, too.

 

I think the big consternation on this thread is that Brandon thinks he did what you see... "solve" Shallan's fractured personality issues by making Adolin the glue which holds her together.  If that's the case, it clearly was done in a way which left many people unconvinced (/extremely concerned with how that portrays a female character/character with mental health issues).  (This is not even taking into account how this would make all of the page time and foreshadowing spent on Shallan/Kaladin a waste, which would be not great writing in my opinion, especially considering the consistent complaint I see about OB is that scenes were left out.  Brandon should have cut all of the Shallan/Kaladin romantic stuff in WoR and OB and spent it elsewhere if it had no and very little payoff.  I would have much rather read about Shallan and Adolin's relationship!  Or Jasnah and Navani!  Or Dalinar and Szeth!  Or really anything else...)  I'd love to see you, or another person who finds that Shallan's fractured personality arc was satisfactorily concluded, answer @PhineasGage's questions above.  I can support the Shallan/Adolin relationship, and think it really could have been good, but I can't support how it was presented and what was presented around it (all of the Kaladin foreshadowing.) 

Thank you for making those points, and I agree that there is a world where Shallan and Adolin could work just fine. This may even be that world, but I don't think they are there yet.

I'd like to answer your points if I may?

• They both state they are committed to making the relationship work. 
  • True, though Shallan heavily implies/says that she needs it because she needs to find Urithiru and provide protection for her brothers (WoR - if there are other mentions of this in OB please let me know). Adolin, does see to be committed to her though and all credit to him.
• The initial interactions show a good camaraderie and banter, plus the fact Adolin is thrown off balance in a very refreshing way (the poop in shardplate scene is one of my favorite humor scenes in all of the three books.)
  • I agree re the poop thing. I see that as having been the real Shallan, the one who could be disarmingly sincere. Adolin responds well because sincerity is so rare in the Alethi court. About the banter though - I thought that Shallan specifically thinks (both in WoR and OB) that she finds Adolin's wit somewhat lacking because he didn't twist her words and throw them back at her. I think that she thinks their banter is fine. Not great, but fine. It might be enough. They do have camraderie, but whilst that is important in a steady relationship, it shouldn't be the only thing. They do have physical attraction though so again, it might be ok.
• Shallan is interested in things in a way Adolin hasn't seen before in girls he courts.  I'm doing a WoK re-read, and I was imaging how much she would have liked the strap-cutting investigation.  As a mirror, we see her actively involved in the Sadeas investigation.
  • Yes I agree very much with this. She has an analytical mind and enjoys working it. Adolin doesn't seem to, but you dont have to match on everything  
• Adolin listens to Shallan.  He expresses over-protective feelings for her post-chasms, and he seems to internalize this, such as letting her do her own thing in the Battle of Narak.  He generally lets her do her thing in OB, though he is obviously protective of her (not a bad thing!)
  • I agree that he listens, but I think as he is a natural people person this is not as strong a point as it could be. He listens well to most people. Its not a critiscm but something that cannot really be used from his side as a supporting argument unless we say it also supports Kal x Ado too. Shallan though, is less good at finding out and remembering the details people give her - especially personal stuff that is of no great importantance to the bigger picture. I am not saying that she isn't listening, only that we have limited evidence to suggest that she is. For example, Adolin says he despises hunting in WoR. If Shallan has taken that on board, we haven't seen it mentioned so it is difficult to know if she is putting Adolin first. We also have multiple instances where he does not seem to pick up on hints she gives to her motivations that she does not express verbally. Again, that in itself is not a problem except for the fact that she is not good at telling people her problems. It would be good if Adolin could get her to open up. Maybe he will, in which case it's all good. However we have little evidence that suggests this is happening at this point in time.
• They work well together in stressful situations.  Kholinar and Shadesmar are good examples of this.  They seem to be a good team.
  • True. This is a good idea to follow through on - the Alethi elite function best in pairs because of the way their society divides the roles of men and women. A pair that can anticipate the needs of the other - both in personal and political lives are likely the most successful. 
• Adolin wants to spend time with Shallan and introduce her to new things (spicy food, sword fighting), and she is generally receptive to this.  This is a good dynamic in any relationship (involving your partner in your interests.)  Note I don't think Adolin can be held responsible for Shallan fracturing into Radiant at the sword fighting.
  • I agree. I don't actually blame either of them. It is one of those terrible moments that happen by accident. Misunderstandings are often the cause of conflict rather than actual cruelty. Unlike Shallan being responsible for her mother's death (not to blame, but reposnible regardless), Adolin cannot be held responsible because he cannot even know it happened then. Not only was it not his intent, but he also couldn't have predicted it.
• I think personally think Shallan likes feeling smarter than people; Adolin allows her to do this (even though I think he is smarter than her in many ways, and more book smart than she gives him credit for, but she definitely feels like she has the intellectual upper hand.)
  • So I don't think Adolin is that intellectual. I also think that even if he has the capacity, I think he is lazy in this regard and simply can't be bothered to learn. As an Alethi man, he seems to think he doesn't need to. Its a function of the society he is in, but despite liking wine for example, he doesn't bother to learn about it like Renarin has. Adolin has the benefit of an excellent education - likely the best money can buy. But he does lack intellectual curiosity - look how he doesn't bother finding out about the buildings on the Shattered Plains. He isn't that interested in the chasmfiends except because a lack of gemhearts is a serious problem if they can't feed their soldiers. He only really enjoys Shallan's pictures initially because of how good she is. We don;t see him get interested in her drawings of the mandras. Its ok, we can't share every interest that our partners share, so I don;t automatically think its a deal breaker, but natural history is Shallan's calling after all. On a personal preference note, I think Shallan will get bored with a partner who cannot keep up with her intellectually. I think she resembles Jasnah in this regard (who is likely single at least in part because she cannot find someone to match her intellectually). Different people handle this different ways, but most of the clever women I have known tend to have partners who match them on this level, rather than allow them to prop their own ego up.
• We see in OB that they both express more inner secrets to each other.  Shallan tells Adolin about Kabsal; Adolin tells Shallan about Sadeas.  I think they open up to each other appropriately, esp. given that most people don't have Shallan's, ummm, past murder issues.
  • Wouldn't it have been appropriate for Shallan to maybe tell Adolin that she is a murderer too? I am not sure he knows any of her secrets yet. I guess he'll know at least some by SA4 but it will be a serious warning sign if he still doesn't know all of them by then. I personally don't consider the Kabsal thing a secret. Only 2 people knew about it - Jasnah and Shallan, and until now, Jasnah wasn't around to tell anyone. Now she is, it seems like it would be at risk of coming out. A better secret would be that she tried to become Jasnah's ward to steal the soulcaster from her. Kabsal's thing is not only now a minor plot point, it doesn't paint Shallan in a negative light - it only made her look a little naive. I am still personally waiting for her to show Adolin her feet of clay - the flaws that she cannot try to push onto Veil or Radiant. If she keeps pushing those onto other alts, then he doesn't actually know her at all.

As I said, I could get on board the ship more or less as is, with a few minor tweaks that show genuine understanding. A sequence like the chasm/highstorm would be best imo, but failing that I'd take something concrete like a situation where someone says something like "Come on a hunt with us Adolin" and Shallan says "Actually he despises hunting". At least it would prove she took something he said on board. I feel we don't get enough of that. If you disagree, please provide quotes

13 hours ago, SLNC said:

See. This is a version of it that I could have very, very much lived with. It looks and feels sincere. Instead, we get this mess we have now as you already have stated.

But then again, this wouldn't have needed the hinting at Kaladin either.

True - why even bring him into it. Neither he nor Shallan have significantly benefitted from the interactions unless they are part of a larger whole. Kaladin could definitely have been "lightened" in a way that doesn't indcate romance. 

12 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

EDIT: The only mother perspective in fantasy, beside Navani, that comes to my mind is Catelyn Stark in aSoIaF. It's been a couple of years since I read the books and some things are fuzzy in my mind, but I think she was really into protecting her kids and talking about them. I remember being annoyed by her character, but it wasn't because of that. I just didn't like her for some random reason I don't remember now. 

 

Hmm, I liked Catelyn for the most part - her dislike for Jon Snow aside, she was a decent mother. That said, she fell right into the "mother" archetype most of the time so it wasn't exactly a huge deviation from the path most travelled. Personal preference aside, I don't want to see Shallan become a version of Catelyn because I don;t want her pigeonholed. 

I think you would probably quite like some of the Anne McCaffrey stuff. Like many long series, her Pern stuff takes a bit of time to get going, but from what I recall Lessa (the  initial female protagonist) experiences many female roles through the books. Also, dragons. Because who doesn't like dragons?

12 hours ago, Diomedes said:

So on a different note altogether, I found this little passage of Shallan

Ough. So Shallan thinks Adolin likes being around her because she is pretty? This entire relationship seems to be a means to feed Shallan`s ego. Adolin gives her a reason to feel special; Having a prince as boyfriend and being told she is pretty.  

Everyone interpreted this wedding scene as a sign that she has accepted herself now (or not). But this is Shallan`s wedding. This is a celebration of the bond between husband and wife. This should not be about Shallan herself! 

Shallan reeally needs to get out off the ego trip. 

Until she doesn`t do that... well a newly born baby would not be helpful. 

Well I think it's a stretch to say "everyone" as many of the people on this thread have stated otherwise   However, I think many women have a bit of the "my" wedding thing - most women are more invested in the wedding than the groom is in my experience.  Shallan does take it way too far  though imo.

I don't mind Shallan wanting to be thought pretty at that stage in the relationship. I want my SO to think I'm pretty/attractive after 6 years. That said, I do agree that it needs to go from there at some point. A purely physical relationship is doomed to fail unless some emotional attachment starts. 

11 hours ago, straits said:

 

@Dreamstorm, the events that you have outlined at your post are not really a "plausible" alternative to what the author wrote. They are feel-good wishcasting, and that is not a reasonable thing to demand of an author.

Um yes, I think that was the point? It was pointing out that we have some basic building materials to build a complete ship but need additonal material to really get behind it. Without that, all we have is a skeleton of a ship.

11 hours ago, Darvys said:

Wow, was rereading part 3 and noted a disturbing bit of dialogue in chapter 74 :

  “Mmmm … Why are you so happy about feeding so few?”
  “Feeding these few is something we can do.”
  “So is jumping from a building,” he said—frank, as if he didn’t understand the sarcasm he used. “But we do not do this. You lie, Shallan.”
  “Veil.”
  “Your lies wrap other lies. Mmm…” He sounded drowsy. Could spren get drowsy? “Remember your Ideal, the truth you spoke.”

Of course Shallan then went on with her day as if nothing disturbing just happened.

Pattern seeming oblivious to his use of sarcasm as opposed to satisfied humming which implies an actual lack of understanding of both her simple statement and what sarcasm is, talking drowsily ... Is it too late to jump in the "Pattern is dying" bandwagon ?

For the people looking for similarities with Syl's case, how's this for you ?

Pattern gets drowsy towards the beginning of WoR too. Shallan even wonders if spren can get drowsy as well. She never bothers to answer that question for herself. I don't quite see how they relate explicitly but the interaction happens at pag 421 of 1080 (kindle) 38% of the way through in chapter 36. She has just killed Tyn and seems to be pretending that she hasn't, in that she doesn't acknowledge it in her monologue. Its possibly a bit of a stretch so if anyone else can put together the ideas please do so for me!

Regarding the sarcasm you are very right. He gets so excited when he accidentally uses sarcasm in WoR - they have a whole conversation about it and he specifically say "it is the bond" that allows him to use those kinds of things. He also uses more abstractions - eg the concept of the "taste" of Shallan's lies through illusions. By the end, he cannot undertand that Adolin says that they are an odd group (ie a weird group) but sees that seven people make an odd number. I found it funny at the time, but it could mask a serious issue.

10 hours ago, straits said:

Of course - the only thing that was really objectionable to me is suggesting what the author should or should not write, but I don't think any reader's dissatisfaction is invalid regardless.

Part of why I defend the way this was written, is that I believe that a book doesn't necessarily need to be modular in every aspect - having unresolved issues makes the reading experience more authentic for me, but this is subjective.

Those were exactly my thoughts, and I was baffled at how Shallan reacted at the way Pattern began to fade. Did she have trouble manipulating Stormlight afterwards? Kaladin had problems with his abilities when Syl weakened due to his poor adherence to oaths.

I don't mind the books not being modular, however you are discounting something quite important I feel and that is that BS's books tend to be modular when they are written in series. Whilst you cannot read Mistborn 2 or 3 without having read the earlier books, they do almost stand apart in terms of the arcs that are followed. I remember getting to the end of Mistborn 1 and being confused how he could even eke out 1 other book, let alone 2. I was very impressed with how he managed it. Now SA is obviously not nearly so clear cut, but it is not unreasonable, given the previous 2 endings plus other books by the same author, that a clean ending could be expected. The main issue that has got people worried is that  IF it is a clear cut ending and they feel it probably shouldnt be. If we get to SA4 and it turns out that OB was not like WoR or tWoK, then a lot of this concern will disappear for future books. That said, with a time skip, some of the elements like Helarans death and Sadeas's murder may not be revisited. Sadeas'  murder seems oto have borne fruit in that it lead to the idea that there was a copy-cat killer. Did it have to be Adolin that killed him? I don't really see why as Adolin doesn't seem to be held accountable for it as of the end of OB.

10 hours ago, SLNC said:

Maybe I wasn't so clear as I hoped then

I, by no means, want to suggest, that an author should write in a certain way. An author is an artist and an artist should have certain freedoms and even if this "cliffhanger", that is how I see it anyway, has left me dissatisfied, I'll still keep buying Brandon's books, because the rest of the book was superb.

Yes, this.

 

10 hours ago, straits said:

Yeah, I understand that from your further explanation. Also, something that I have personally accepted over years of reading is that art is a dictatorship, not a democracy

As it should be. But just because the author is king doesn't mean I have to like the taxes he levies. "You're the king? Well I didn't vote for you."

10 hours ago, straits said:

It does make sense. I guess the one thing where we differ is that I am currently enjoying the way the author has expanded on the mental trauma these characters have suffered, and propagated the consequences into the lives of several characters. It is (so far) more interesting than a happily ever after, and feels realistic, if not so happy.

But if the problems Shallan has with her psyche just magically disappear in book 4 after Adolin's exacerbation of her dissociative disorder, I'll be dissatisfied as well. It is the opposite of what is being set up here.

Yes I very much agree with this. For all that I want there to be magic in the books I don't want stuff to get fixed "because magic". 

10 hours ago, maxal said:

I think the thread is mistaken: Adolin is not the glue. Adolin merely is the vector by which Shallan remembers Shallan exists. Her whole story arc was about her hating Shallan so much she wanted her to go away, her whole story arc was written in a way which highlights how much easier it is for Shallan to stop existing and to sink into either Veil or Radiant. I felt the whole purpose of her story arc was to stop hating Shallan for what Shallan was forced to do, to start carrying on her pain, but to stop thinking she deserves it. It was about Shallan making her decision and stopping letting Veil or Radiant take them for her or mistaken what the Veil and the Radiant personas would prefer, based on the characteristics she gave them.

From what I understand, you seem to think that Veil and Radiant are mere constructs and not a part of Shallan? Would that be fair to say?

This is exactly the opposite of what I think is going on, but unless we get a WoB confirming one way or the other we will have to be content to disagree on this. That said, I am interested to know how you rationalise them not being part of Shallan when Wit (who is pretty reliable for all that obfuscates the truth) says:

"Your other minds take over" and "You're all of them" (from chapters 82 and 84 respectively)

As we know there is a real-world analogue for what Shallan is going through, I feel it is reasonable to work from that as an assumption, given how independent her different identities are. I feel that they represent facets of the complete Shallan. Creating complete constructs that bear no relation to the real Shallan seems.... forced, given how she herself describes them. In WoR especially she says that Veil is a version of herself. I feel pretty comfortable with the concept that she has simply gone one step further and made that version feel separate from the whole. If you feel that they are completely separate, how do you explain the way that Veil as a person has changed very little in terms of her behaviour between when Shallan was wearing Veil's mask (in WoR) to now when Veil appears to be a separate entity in her mind. On top of that, how would you explain the alternate identities being able to take control of the body if they aren't based on Shallan's core personality? There is no evidence that she is being possessed or if that is even possible in the cosmere.

10 hours ago, SLNC said:

But he has never seen the real Shallan. Shallan herself admits it.

Note, that horrid mess is what she still is. Due to still not accepting the Ideal, the Truth, that she killed her mother, that she spoke. Her fracturing herself into Shallan, Veil and Radiant? That was a consequence of being that horrid mess, but not what is really wrong with her. What is wrong with her is that she still hates the Shallan, she was before. Before she fractured herself, which is the quintessence of what Wit tried to tell her. Forgive yourself and become the woman you've always been, even if it will hurt. Stop being just a shade of yourself. The real Shallan is Shallan + Veil + Radiant, but not seperated, together. Just as they have been for a moment during the Battle of TC.

She isn't the real Shallan. Whenever she is Shallan, she is the Shallan, that she thinks Adolin wants to see. The way he deals with Veil as a different person as Shallan cements her line of thought in that.

Actually, I disagree with the bit i put in bold. If she'd truly recombined, even for a moment, she'd be seen as one, not three. She still sees her alts as intrinsic to her ability to function. She needs to get past that and see that she already is all three. 

9 hours ago, AubreyWrites said:

If this is the resolution and Shallan chose herself then why didn't  Veil and Radiant reintegrate into her. Instead she's actually talking to both of them as if they are separate people right before her wedding....

Yes - and seems to be encouraging at least Adolin to treat them as individuals.

9 hours ago, firegazer said:

 As a reader, you may appreciate the idea of a story where not everything has a meaning, but most readers simply are not like that. I myself don’t enjoy wasting time reading scenes that don’t contribute to the overall story in some way, especially when I feel that space could have been better used to develop other underdeveloped storylines or characters. I will, however, admit that I get unreasonably irritated by poor craftsmanship, even and especially if the author has shown they are capable in other ways. That is fully on me.

...

 and I suspect unwilling to admit that all of their careful speculations due to text analysis are useless because of Sanderson’s struggles with romance coming to the forefront. To be clear to anyone reading this: I recommend that you stop trying to predict where he is going to go with anything romance related, as he often departs from his usual techniques and flails a bit when it comes to romance. Techniques that work to help you understand where he is going with metaplot WILL fail when it comes to romance. You may as well be rolling dice.

...

he once again CHOSE to push a patriarchal, primogeniture based society which pushes arranged marriages and the disempowerment of women. I’ve read enough of this from male authors to last me a lifetime. I would be happy to read a female perspective on it, but other than that, I could do without ever reading another “but it’s based on the real medieval ages I just HAD to do it!” from a male author ever again. Yawn. Double yawn, with a healthy side of irritation at the lack of creativity.

Similarly, I don’t want to read a male author writing main female character as young mother in a patriarchal society, whether he subverts expectations or not. I would rather see him subvert expectations by having the female main character not be pushed into motherhood at all. That would be much more creative, unprecedented, and outside of the boxes he created for himself when he arbitrarily decided to write Yet Another Patriarchal Fantasy Society in the first place.

Unforunately, all signs I see so far point to Sanderson blithely continuing in the direction he seems to be going in this book. Which is sad, because I now intend to wait on buying the next book. If I hear that Shallan is now a mother from first readers after it’s released, I’ll be dropping him as an author. I’m simply not interested in it as a plot line for all kinds of reasons, mostly meta in nature. I am not saying that I expect many other readers to do this as well, or even that they should. I’m just getting persnickety in my old age and less patient with outdated authorial choices. I’d rather spend my time looking for gems from less refined but more unique female authors if this is going to be a constant battle with my current favourite.

I agree with a great deal of your post, but I'd like to address a couple of points if I may.

I'm not sure that "most" readers want everything to fit. Fandoms and forums like this one cause people to gravitate towards overanalysis so we are only seeing that aspect here. I was talking with a friend who had also read SA the other day but they had blithely just accepted it and weren't interested in the analysis/theorycrafting/shipping aspects of the book at all. They simply enjoyed it. That's fine and a perfectly reasonable way to read fiction, especially when someone has real life stresses to worry about and they don't want to waste energy on analysing a book. Its not how I handle it, but I sometimes wish it were

I see where you are coming from saying that analysis of relationships (not even just romantic ones) may be impossible given your points on how Sanderson has handled them in the past. That being said, no matter how much a person may dislike a given ship in his other books, I have never felt "misled" the way I feel about this one. I can see why Siri/Susebron may upset people, but I never personally got the impression it wasn't going to happen. The same could be said of most of the romantic arcs we've had. I would say the closest I got to feeling this way was (Mistborn 2nd trilogy spoiler)

Spoiler

Wax and Marasi in book one of that arc. But even that was not pushed in the same way - most of the feelings seemed to be one-sided, Wax was clearly still in mourning, and it wasn't a relationship of equals because Marasi hero-worshipped him.

I also didn't get other foreshadowing elements like situations where Shallan changes clothes in the streets of Kharbranth, wonders if "anyone" had ever seen her naked then "shivered in the wind's kiss". Why put that in given how heavily Kaladin is associated with the wind? Why even make the scene vaguely sexual in nature? What about the way Kaladin's climb into the hollow in the chasm is written which also has a vaguely sexual feel to it. He may not write romantic arcs that well, but then it should be easy to avoid those kinds of descriptions surely?

On the note of the lack of creatitivity with Roshar being another quasi medieval setting, I do see your point. That being said, Sanderson is changing this up elsewhere and I don't mind so much that it wasn't in his epic. Wax and Wayne are Victoriana, and iirc the third Mistborn trilogy will be current day then he plans on it being futuristic. On top of that, he did the Reckoners which is "present day" in a way too - tho as it is post-apocalyptic there are some parallels with a more primitive society, though not the issues surrounding the subjugation of women imo.

I think, because he wanted the KR to be magical representations of medieval knights, it makes sense it is set in a medieval settiing. That's ok. He wanted the oaths to matter and that is reflective of the concept of chivalry (which wasn't actually a thing, but has permeated the social consciousness) in medieval societies. For those reasons alone, the setting makes sense. I do agree though that we don't need another book where the women are given their roles and they have to stick to them. For the record, until now, I have been happy with the women he wrote in SA. They are not boxed into the female triad in my opinion.

That said, I do agree I will be very disappointed if I hear that Shallan hits motherhood in SA4. I'll still get it and see how he handles it - his writing is good enough that I want to give him a chance to prove he can get it right. if however, I reach the end of the book and I feel he hasn't done a good enough job then yes, I may also drop the series. I'll still read his other books because I have enjoyed him as an author so far, but I'll probably wait longer to get his books than I typically have been.

 

9 hours ago, AllomancerSam said:

*I was fully prepared to have Shadolin be endgame, and as much as I love Shalladin, I could get behind the other side if I was given a reason to care about their relationship, but I kind of wasn't? I liked them well enough after WoR but by the end of OB I started actively disliking it. I guess I have two real problems with them, and it might be wholly personal, but 1. they're completely boring together. I love them both individually as characters but together there's just nothing there. This is especially weird because while a lot of people say that romance is one of BS's weaker writing points, and I can see where they're coming from, I have greatly liked and even loved almost every canon pairing he's thrown at us, except Shadolin. 2. I'm not seeing them offering each other the chance to grow and change. This is particularly important for Shallan right now because she has so much healing to do and Adolin is just not helping, and as it's been pointed out, he's actually hurting her by treating her different personas as different people, which they are not.

...

Also, Wit seems so certain of this, so certain that she may be broken now, but eventually she can pull through. Also also, Pattern agrees.

I really think this is right, because it's very close to what Dalinar does later on to heal. He takes his pain upon himself, claims it, and is able to forgive and be forgiven. "The pain he'd so recently insisted that he would keep started to fade away on its own." - Pg 1139. This is in direct contrast to what Shallan does, which is to repress everything and just pretend that there's nothing wrong. I also find it interesting how all three of our leads (Shallan, Kaladin, and Dalinar) talk about being different people throughout their lives, granted, Shallan does take this a step or two further than the others. They talk about becoming different men gradually through change an growth, and Dalinar in particular acknowledges that they weren't just a different part of him, he was those men, all of them, but because of them he has been able to change. Every step counts. There are actually a lot of interesting parallels you can draw between Shallan and Dalinar in this book. They both experienced incredible pain, Shallan brought this into herself, seeing herself as a "monster" because of it, while Dalinar refused to claim any responsibility, but still hated himself. They both repressed their pains and memories -Shallan, through her lies, and Dalinar, through his drinking. In the end of OB we were given one very clear and healthy way of eventually dealing with all of this (Dalinar), and one way that is decidedly less healthy (Shallan).

 

Hello @AllomancerSam welcome to the currently becalmed SS Shalladin. We are currently running out of water, food, and desire to live, but we have dental! 

I think you made some great points above and I especially like the way you compared Shallan and Dalinar. Interestingly, both Dalinar and Shallan use the word "monster" to describe themselves at least once each. I find them a very interesting contrast. I actually think that responsibility and accepting it is a major point in the series as a whole so far - Kaladin almost accepts it too easily - Dalinar comments on how he does this in WoR and says it is commendable. Dalinar finally takes responsibility at the end of OB after a great deal of soul searching. And Shallan seems to have tried to run away from it for most of her life. I personally don't think she has started doing it yet properly (it is one thing to know she killed her mother and another to accept the responsibility of her actions) but there are other's here who do and thats open to interpretation at this stage imo. 

The bit you wrote regarding Wit is really important. I re-read that section this morning and it hit me again, so thank you. Hoid knows a lot. A lot. There is some evidence that he has future-sight and he knows she can manage it. I suspect that it is because he isn't getting any "i need to help her" feelings from her so he knows she can do it on her own. We will see Shallan improve at some point and this will let her be herself and be happy. She may have started though I'm not convinced.

9 hours ago, Prelude said:

Love this thread!   Excuse me while I go make some coffee to sip whilst I catch up. 

Ha, make sure you get a large mug! 

9 hours ago, straits said:

A lot of this is critique that demands the author to obey Chekhov's Gun in a very literal way. The foreshadowing for a relationship between Kaladin and Shallan ended up in internal character development and emotional concessions for both Shallan and Kaladin, with varied consequences that we are yet to fully see in the subsequent books. 

On your comments about his patriarchal crafting of society, I think you're right. But for better or worse, it is the prerogative of the author, and like you said - what you choose to read, is on you. I don't think anyone should be dissatisfied at the lack of resolution on mental trauma (in Shallan's case) in book 3 in a 10-book series, though.

And there's an excellent piece of writing on fan expectations of authors that Neil Gaiman wrote. I don't mean to recommend it to you as a way to tell you that your opinion is invalid. But it is not the author's job to satisfy you.

I had a read of this essay by Gaiman and whilst it makes perfect sense, it is also unrealistic to expect people not to expect things. We are pattern-recognition machines - although not necessarily accurate ones. We want to see patterns so search them out. This will always make a reader have some expectations. Lets think about Sanderson's new "mystery project" (Skyward or something? I forget). I have heard nothing about it except the possible name that I may be misremembering anyway. I still expect it to be fantasy because BS writes fantasy predominantly. I expect there to be multiple PoVs - even if one person is more "main" than the others, because many of his books follow this pattern. Is it wrong of me to do this?

9 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

I do agree with the first part of your comment and how in a way it feels, so I gave you an upvote. I also feel Brandon has decided to play it safe with the arranged marriage working. While I don't think there will be any more to this plot, a part of me, after reading all the evidence people have provided wants to keep some options open. But.. since I fell for the Kaladin bait, I am wary now. 

Regarding his choice with placing this story in a patriarchal society.. not so much, but I have a feeling we'll disagree. I read this certain sociaty as having nuances and for the most part I feel like the men have certain advantages and women others. It doesn't solely read to me as women being opressed in this world. So far I had no problem with the way he presented certain problematic issues as race, class, mental health issues, sexual orientation , gender and for me those things read naturally and not like having an agenda of checking the most unpriviledged or opressed categories, as a lot of other books and authors do today. Nowadays it's like a trend to have a character from each category in order to be politically correct and it feels fake when all this comes out at once. IMO Brandon did a good job when he tackled those issues because he always allowed his characters to be more than a certain aspect of their identities. 

I agree, tho one of the reasons i'd be disappointed if the marriage ends up magically perfect is because he can write characters to be themselves despite the risk of stereotyping them.

9 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

 If you are correct, and we can't trust Sanderson on how he builds romance plotlines, that makes me way less invested, as although I enjoy the magic and world building and all that, my favorite thing to read about is personal relationships (and romance is the most intimate of personal relationships.) So yes to this. But also a sad analysis. 

I agree. I love all the "people" bits. My SO and I were talking about this last night actually. He likes the "mechanics" of the worlds - the principles underlying the magic system, how the crem stops Roshar being eroded away, the relationship between Shadesmar and the physical realm. I like the history, the social constructs/constraints, the taboos, the languages and most of all the relationships. We still both value the world building, but he gets a lot more out of the Ars Arcanum than I do generally, except when it relates to something like the written languages of Roshar. I feel that Sanderson writes both sides well but that romantic arcs are a relative weakness of his. He doesn't write them poorly from an objective perspective really (there are plenty of more poorly written romances out there after all) but they are definitely a weakness in comparison with how he writes other relationships. For example, regardless of whether you prefer Adolin or Kaladin, I think we can all agree that the Adolin/Kaladin bromance is great.

9 hours ago, firegazer said:

Except that I found the craftsmanship on these developments so poorly crafted and confusing that I wasn't sure they needed to be there at all. Sanderson normally has an ability to give you a clear idea of what happened emotionally in a scene and what the concrete results are and why. I didn't find that to be the case with any of these scenes -- I came out of each of them feeling like he wasn't sure where he was going with them, and the entire arc felt much less 1 + 1 = 2 than he normally manages with character development. 

...

In all cases, I think I can make a philosophical argument here, but that seems beyond the scope of this thread.

I don't necessarily mind that the scenes you describe weren't clear cut. I felt they reflected Shallan's own personal inner conflict quite well actually. If I am right and she is only halfway through this particular arc, then they actually make perfect sense. I am  worried that if the end of OB closes the arc then why didn't we see her actually come to the realisation that Adolin was the better choice for rational reasons. And if anyone says "love isn't rational" I'm not buying it. Attraction isn't rational, but I am quite clear that I love my partner because of many reasons and I can rationalise them. If Shallan really loves Adolin, it should be for more than "he makes me feel good and safe". She should be able to tell us why with much more detail. 

9 hours ago, straits said:

I can see this as a difference in how readers parse certain scenes. Shallan's erratic behaviour does not necessarily follow a neat chain of causality (or 1+1=2 in character development). But to me, this suggests that the formula for her characterization is more complex, and yet to be revealed in the series, which is part of what I find enjoyable about the book.

 

Yes - this . Atually ignore my comment above and just use this instead. It's much more coherent.

8 hours ago, firegazer said:

Ah. I think I see what you mean. To some extent, I am a minority within the literary community. I actually do believe that there is such a thing as objectively good writing and objectively bad writing. I have had long arguments with other readers and writers about it. If we don't believe that there is such a thing as objectively bad writing, then how are we able to say things like "this author has gotten better"?

...

I have an actual list of criteria I use when I am editing work. It's how I'm able to do it in the first place. In general, though not 100% of the time, I have found this list to be true to how well readers enjoy the work.

...

Traditionally, arranged marriage WAS an example of the commoditization of women and the devaluing of their worth to society as quite literally a vessel to make heirs and represent family alliances. It still IS an example of this in many areas of the world. We are not free of its negative connotations, and I am therefore getting tired of seeing male authors get away with using it as a trope when they should certainly know better by now -- especially when I know that said authors are creative enough to make different choices.

In short, while I am sure that Sanderson has the ability to write out certain conflicts in a satisfying manner, I am tired enough of these conflicts that I don't see the need for them to be written AT ALL, and certainly not through the lens of a male author. Even the placement of Shallan into a commoditized situation bothered me -- the decision to make that commoditization bloom into a relationship bothers me more. The fact that the character progression leading up to this resolution seemed poorly written was icing on the cake. It's a layered problem.

Sanderson displayed other issues in his writing of this book which were not related to Shallan -- he dropped the plot thread of Adolin killing Sadeas, when his writing in the last book gave that conflict a place of prominence and heavily hinted through context that it would be important. He skipped emotionally heavy scenes, like Jasnah returning from the dead and Navani's reaction to Elhokar's death. I found a lot of this to be sloppy writing, which is where I think the big lack of trust is coming from in readers. Because this sloppiness wasn't entirely restricted to Shallan's scenes, there is a lot of questioning going on in people's heads about whether Sanderson has just dropped yet another thread at the very end with Shallan.

Great post. I very much agree about there being objectively good and bad writing and am surprised to think this is even something that can be debated. Does anyone really think that Mills and Boon books are in any way comparable to Atonement? Its not about enjoyment, its about the author being able to translate thoughts, images, feelings, ideas and situations into the written word - preferably without making the reader work too hard to get their meaning. As an aside, I'd love to see this list you mentioned - would you mind sending me a PM with some/all of the things you look for? I'd be most grateful.

So I agree to a point regarding the arranged marriage. I can see that when building a world where arranged marriage fits the social construct it may be necessary to include it. I also think it was used for purposes other than romance in WoR to get Shallan into places she might otherwise have struggled to get. I felt it sped some of those things up and therefore had it's place. I'm not sure how she'd have managed to get in with the Kholins without it. I'm not saying it was impossible, but more of the book would have had to cover it. I am disappointed that its yet another magically successful arranged marriage. I feel that it might be nice for BS to undermine his own trope regarding this and delve into a failed/unhappy marriage for once. He brushed over Navani/Gavilars. He still might go there though so we'll just have to see. 

I very much agree that those "deleted scenes" you mentioned make it very difficult to assume anything is going to be carried forward. It is difficult to come up with a way that Adolin faces any form of justice for example if there is a year time skip. That really bothers me. I still think Helaran's death may be explored but again, it feels strange to think it won't come up in the timeskipped period? If it doesn't come up then, maybe it never will? Why even make it a thing then? I think Jasnah as a whole should probably have had more time (though i suspect he is keeping her under wraps because she knows too much and he isn't ready to divulge all the deets to us yet). Even so, hiding her return from us felt unnecessary. We could definitely have lost some of the other things elsewhere to make room for it if those threads are going to be dropped.

8 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

...

So yes, while I agree there is a posibility of this being part of a longer game he's playing, I think is also realistically, considering how many threads are coming to life in the next books and how difficult it will be to manage everything, that there is no room for exploring Shallan's consequances for jumping into a problematic marriage. And I don't think it's absurd of people feeling this is not satisfactory or having other expectations, when they were set for those. 

 

Very true - I think we all acknowledge that there are so many things he has to cover that he cannot pick up every thread. Whilst he is very good at going back and tying up loose ends/making stuff fit, SA is so massive that it is much less likely that he'd manage it like he did in Mistborn,

Alsom thank you for finding his response. Very interesting.

8 hours ago, straits said:

However, the issue within this thread seems to be the fact that the book OB seems to be not stand-alone or modular enough to satisfy readers while they wait for certain resolutions in the sequels, which I do believe are coming, whether they are satisfactory or not.

I think there is room to explore the consequences of getting into an arranged marriage. And my personal disagreement with the expectations of some other readers, has more to do with where these resolutions will take place - within, or after OB. I might get this post dropped on my head in a future thread on book 4, but I'm looking forward to that.

So as I said above I think it is mainly that people are concerned that the books are modular so the tie-up at the end of the book is the genune conclusion to several arcs. If it isn't modular, I for one will be very pleased.

8 hours ago, straits said:

I personally agree with your view on the arranged marriage trope. But I believe that in order to condemn something in comparison with an objective, literary standard, in particular if it deals with what you think is good or bad for society, it should come from an axiomatically derived foundation (for most people this would be God, although for some this is a cop out). If the foundation is instead something along the lines of "it does not align with the sensibilities of a large number of people within the community", then it is not an objective standard. It is a clash of worldviews.

From what I understood, the objection is as much about the morality or otherwise of arranged marriage as it is about using the trope because it is easy and that is lazy writing. I agree that morality is not objective, but there are "easy" tropes and more difficult ones. Arranged marriage, at least based on how many times BS has used it, is an "easy" one for him. 

8 hours ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I know it's been stated before, but the primary problem isn't her having kids. It's her having kids while still suffering from OSDD that she is not taking steps to treat. I am personally not worried about Shallan here. I am worried for the child. I guarantee that if Shallan had a child, it would be worse of than Adolin and Renarin were with Dalinar.

...

In addition, that is what mental health issues are about. One of the first things in treatment of a mental health issue is to focus only on yourself and your own pain. The main ethos is that you can't help anyone if you haven't helped yourself which incidentally, is what Shallan thinks she is doing. 

...

To reiterate, the entire point of being a Radiant is focusing on and solving your internal problems. If you feel this is a narrative issue, I feel like this may be the wrong series for you, because that is one of the main purposes of the narrative.

...

So, the point of the book seems to be solving personal issues. That has been the point of every single narrative in the series so far. Furthermore, treating OSDD is done almost exclusively through navel gazing, and thinking about only yourself. That is literally the medical solution to that. If that is your issue with the narrative, than I must reiterate that I don't understand if this is the right series for you.

 

Well put  I have a minor gripe that I'd be worried for both the child and Shallan. They could both suffer in this case.

I very much agree about what you said about navel gazing. Too many people seem to think that focussing on yourself is inherently bad and neglect to realise how important it is in the context of mental health. We do therapy precisely because self-reflection is a big part of the healing process. 

8 hours ago, firegazer said:

I think that's where we differ. It's because of the Sadeas sub-plot and some of the other sub-plots which we have had mostly confirmed as non-explorable in future books (scenes utterly skipped, entire sub-plots wrapped up with an unsatisfactory line or two), that I have solid reason to worry that this IS the resolution of Shallan's plot. That is exactly why I think people here are uneasy. There is good textual evidence to make a SOLID argument that Sanderson might well have ended Shallan's plot with a single, unsatisfactory scene. "I am getting married, and things are now better" could well be the resolution, in the greater context of the rest of the book.

I am not, as a result, expressing that I am dropping this series right here and now. I am already disappointed with many of the choices he has made as an author, but I am hanging on because the rest of the elements in the series are quite good. I AM expressing a certain uneasiness with the idea that the next book may upset the last bit of my sensibilities and MAY force me to drop the series.

Indeed. I am perhaps a little more hopeful than you seem to be (but then I've been venting on this thread for ages now) because I believe Sanderson has written OSDD too well for it to be a coincidence and that means he's researched it. If he has researched it, then he must know this is still something Shallan needs to handle and that Adolin is doing the wrong thing by separating her Alts. His understanding, description ad handling of depression is so good that I cannot believe he'd handle a different, albeit less common, mental illness with such a lack of care.

8 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

I understand where you are coming from with this, but I belive that when people say "arranged marriage", they mostly think at "forced marriage". Which I don't feel is the case here. I would consider this more along the lines of "suggested marriage" .I will have to go back and check, but the way I read it and remember, this situation was presented to both Shallan and Adolin and they were excited about the prospect of having that weight lifted off their shoulders. They weren't forced into it and they were given the option of agreeing with it or not. And I think that says a lot about the way the trope and the gender roles were handled in this instance. It didn't feel to me that Shallan was to be beneath Adolin in this whole situation. That she freaks out and puts this image of "the perfect bride" and goes to incredible extents in order to preserve that, is another story. 

Indeed. As i mentioned above, it actually solved a lot of issues with regards to getting Shallan to the Shattered Plains and into a position of relative authority quite quickly. I'm just of the opinion that it probably shouldn't have made it to marriage at this stage in her arc.

7 hours ago, Darvys said:

The difference is that there was never any evidence pointing to the existence of a Sadeas sub-plot, it was blown out of proportion by the fans, you shouldn't expect the author to pander to it. As for the skipped scenes, yes there are some that would have been interesting to watch, but that doesn't come close to comparing to the hamfisted way some readers believe the author is treating this arc. I believe your scepticism is something of an overreaction.

Um, do we honestly think that it was ok for Adolin to murder Sadeas? I get that it was never going to be a main arc because Adolin is a side character, but I am surprised at how it was literally glossed over.

Shallan basically had no reaction to it whatsoever....

7 hours ago, AubreyWrites said:

I agree. I read this whole causal arrangement as basically 'if the blind date turns out good then we can progress to the possibility of marriage.'

Both had the agency to break the causal. Many people today still go out in dates set up by someone else. Some end in marriage and some don't. The causal was set in place to see if it would work out. 

I think this functions differently from the "arranged marriage" we are used to seeing in a lot of fiction

True, although Adolin says that they are "supposed" to get married in WoR and Shallan goes out of her way to make it work - usually by lying like a flatfish to Adolin. That implies they are both seeing it as the "expected" outcome. They may feel positively towards it, but that doesn't stop it being a social construct that they feel they have to obey. A bit like Shallan finding it difficult to reveal her safe-hand. It's just a hand, but she spends a lot of time thinking about how to hide it.

7 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

One thing I haven't noticed being mentioned, is that if Jasnah is Queen, then she will have to think about continuing her family line. 

I have no argument against those who point out her animus against men, or her asexuality, or who point out romance would be unnecessary for her. But continuing her family line/dynasty will be something she doesn't take lightly. 

An alternative here might be young Gavinor or any children Adolin & Shallan might have. 

Jasnah is Queen but she likely won't have a direct hereditary line. 1) Gavinor is her heir. It is implied he will take over when he is of age. She is not a regent because by it's very nature a regency limits the powers of the regent. Jasnah won't be limited in that way but she will probably have to give way to Gavinor. 2) There are perfectly good heirs already in place after Gavinor - those being Dalinar, Adolin and Renarin. Obviously Dalinar would have to abdicate, but Adolin and Renarin were already in line and it was always a possibility for them.  Society can usually only take so much upheaval. Declaring a heretic as Queen is likely to be hard enough without her forming a dynasty. Allowing the people to see Gavinor as the future king, likely raised by a pious Navani will do a lot to suppress worried about the succession.

7 hours ago, firegazer said:

The issue here is broader than that. In a society where an arranged marriage is seen as a viable way out of the troubles which Shallan was having, there's an element of coercion that has less to do with specific characters doing the coercion and more to do with the society and her circumstances doing it. That's part of what deeply bothered me about it. I understand it's not as bad, but it's still a squick.

I would have much preferred to see her realize that she has a rare opportunity within this society to gain what she needs for herself and her family without the need for a marriage. Instead, she decided "well, I like him, I'll marry him anyway." I'm not sure I have the energy left tonight to get into all the weird implications of this, but I hope this gives some minor sense of where the problems start.

Indeed. Have an upvote.damnation, i'm out - I'll get back to you.

The most ugy aspect of societal norms is when you don't even need other people to tell you what you have to do, you are so ingrained in the thought process you do it to yourself.

7 hours ago, firegazer said:

In which case, Jasnah is a fan of Thaylenah in some respects. I hope she decides to emulate their method of choosing succession based on merit rather than based on blood.

This is another one of those situations where I feel there are a million other alternatives than just twisting Jasnah's characterization and forcing her into having a child for the sake of societal norms which the author himself chose and can therefore decide to change.

Agreed. I think Jasnah will just let Gavinor take over - maybe during the back 5 books. She'll likely be champing at the bit to get back to her studies by then.

7 hours ago, shawnhargreaves said:

For me this thread ultimately boils down to faith in Brandon.  I'd be happy to see Shallan's relationships evolve in many possible directions (or for her to end up single for that matter) as long as I believed in it and felt the outcome was properly earned.  But this is not the case as of the end of OB.  She rushed into something while in an unstable place and for the wrong reasons.

But, we are 3 books into an arc of 5 (ultimately 10).  There are tons of other big things that are unresolved as of the end of OB.  When I think about, eg. how unconvinced I am by the explanation we were given for the cause of the Recreance, I don't worry for a moment that Brandon has written this poorly.  Instead I think ho hum, there are secrets here waiting to be explored in the next book...

So why DO I (plus it seems many others) worry about Shallan's marriage to Adolin?  I've been pondering this and believe it has several root causes:

1. Brandon has not in the past been the most deft at writing romances.  Not that he's terrible at it, just not one of his strengths.
2. He has a habit of writing arranged marriages that develop into true love with minimal hurdles along the way.
3. Marriages in his books always seem stable and trouble free (even Sadeas and Ialai appeared happily married!)
4. Stable, permanent marriages align with what we know of Brandon's personal life and religious beliefs

So we look at these things, and worry that when Brandon writes "they got married" this means "and they lived happily ever after - the end".  Which is not ok!  Note I'm not advocating for any specific path of further development, as there are many options that could work.  They just have to include the fact that Shallan is a mess and has a lot more work to do  (ideally without hurting either Adolin or Kaladin too much, as I love both of them).

BUT...

A unique thing about Brandon among writers I have followed closely is that he seems unusually self aware about his limitations as well as strengths.  A big part of why the romance elements in his previous books did not bother me is that he was smart enough not to place excessive focus on something that was not his strong spot.  Stormlight is stretching his writing skills in many different directions at once, but challenging himself and increasing his skills is exactly what I've seen him do all the way through his career.

I've come to believe I can trust him on this, for two main reasons:

First is the incredibly realistic and insightful handling of mental illness across all three of these books.  Apparently Brandon has personal experience of depression in family members, but he has also obviously done a lot of research before writing this material.  His portrayals are consistently nuanced and spot on.  In OB, I particularly appreciated Kaladin freezing instead of speaking the Fourth Ideal (thank you thank you for not making his depression just go away forever after he got to a better place in life and learned a couple of coping strategies!)  Also the details of how we saw both Dalinar and Teft fall off the wagon - that's exactly how addiction works.  Brandon obviously gets it.  He would not write these characters so accurately, but then prematurely declare Shallan "fixed" in an unrealistic and implausible way.

Secondly is the interlude scene with the ardent reading a romance novel.  This is more than just Brandon trolling the shippers among his fanbase.  He is telling us that he understands the romance genre well enough to pastiche a cliched and poorly written love triangle, and finds that ridiculous enough to poke fun at it.  In other words, "don't worry folks, I know what I'm doing here".

TLDR:  don't panic yet.  Shallan's story is not finished.  Brandon knows what he is doing.

Thank you for this post. I've bookmarked it so I can come back and read it whenever I'm feeling low about the arc! I can't quite get to your position on matters but I can see some light if you are right.

 

5 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I meant to respond to this.  The way I read this, is that she lets Adolin choose which persona is "her" ("There, she thought.  That's the one.  That's the one I am."), which is the opposite of actually accepting her true self, as her true self would incorporate all of her personas.  On the next page, we see Radiant and Veil as still very active parts of her internal dialogue.  ("She shoved Radiant and Veil aside, and when they resisted, she stuffed them into the back part of her brain.  They were not her.  She was occasionally them.  But they were not her.")  Unless one believes that this is actually accurate and healthy (that these alternate personas are subjects to sometimes morph into but otherwise not really part of "actual" Shallan), I don't see how this can be interpreted as Adolin actually choosing the "real" Shallan; Shallan's not integrated with her personalities, so there is no "real" Shallan for Adolin to choose. 

Yes, this is a great synopsis. I am however, not so certain that Adolin wants to love the "real Shallan". How could he know? He hasn't really met her. Also, wanting to love someone is an odd way to put it - you love someone, or you don't. Wanting to love someone suggests that ether part of you doesn't love them and you feel guilty, or you don't love part of them and then feel guilty. Not a wonderful recipe, either way.

3 hours ago, maxal said:

It was provoked, so yeah it was 18 hours of labor which ended up in a C-section. I never tell my first childbirth to new mothers to be. Like. Ever. Good way to scare them into wishing they got pregnant in the first place  I tell them afterwards  Having the kid is not always easy... 

Ha, having 'helped' several women give birth even the "easy" ones are offputting enough for me. I "helped" one woman during her 4th and it vitually popped out like a cork after a couple of contractions. She was in the middle of a sentence, too a deep breath, pushed the kid out, then she carried on talking. It was amazing but still really icky.

2 hours ago, Stormlightning said:

By the end of OB, I think Shallan was in a really tough place. Her dissociated identities were definitely a bad thing, and hopefully she'll take Adolin's incredible faith in her and let it be enough. If there's one thing she hasn't had, it's someone to just love her for who she is. And that's one thing I think everyone needs. Granted, there's probably a long tangent in this thread about how Adolin doesn't know her and whatnot. But I think he knows enough. He knows the person she is now--the real her, at least I think that's what Brandon was trying to make clear at the end of OB. He may not know about her past, but he can recognize when she's being genuinely herself. That's more important than any of her past.

...

I think Adolin is a really healthy person, mentally(granted we may yet discover things to change that opinion). I think he's a great person to travel that road with her.  I, personally, would have wanted them to hold off on the marriage for a while longer still, just to get their feet under them a bit more, but I've also seen plenty of situations where people made it work, so I'll forbear judgement on if it was right or not. No one ever listens to me when I tell them to wait anyway

I'll throw something really brief (haha) on this here. I was never against Shallan and Kaladin. If Adolin didn't exist, I would have gone with them happily. I think they had some good moments in those chasms, that gave them a bond. There was the slight problem of them coping in completely diametric ways (one won't let go of the past, while the other refuses to acknowledge it) that could have been difficult to reconcile. But with some further time spent together, they probably could have gotten to know each other better to a point where they would have made a fine couple.

...

.And despite what some might say, he is smart enough. In OB, he keeps up. 

The difference here is time spent. Shallan had spent a lot of time getting to know each other and were still doing well. They don't beat each other down, they complement each other and are there for each other. That made it seem like it would be awfully unfair for her to ditch him because something could potentially exist with someone else. Shaladin probably could have worked. But Shadolin was already working.

...

Sometimes it's not that one is more 'right' than the other. But she got to spend a lot more time with one, one that happened to have a lot of great qualities, just like the other. And in the final conflict in OB, Adolin was able to offer something extremely personal to her. And so she accepted it. I think that's a very justifiable decision. I was actually be extremely proud of her for not waffling. Doing so would have just been a commitment issue when she really hasn't spent that much time thinking about Kaladin.

...

I didn't see anything unrealistic about the character development for any of these guys. If anything struck me as unrealistic, it was how easily Kaladin let go, but even that worked for me since he really only thought about her a handful of times since the chasms.

At risk of going way off topic, I'll say that Shallan's character development (or lack thereof) was strangely touching to me. Too many times authors have fictional characters experience a "come to" moment where they learn something and grow up.

Hey, thanks for writing this  @Stormlightning I appreciate it. I'd like to clarify a few things if you don't mind.

1) You mentioned that you think Adolin "knows enough" of Shallan and I can somewhat get behind that in terms of her past actions , but I find it difficult to reconcile with the fact that that he doesn't see Veil and Radiant as being part of the "real" Shallan. I got the impression you think those are part of her core personality, in which case how does this work with him knowing enough? "Shallan" is a dominant alt, but Veil is at least as big a fragment. Merging them back together might have interesting ramifications - a bit like resonanance between two surges makes the handling of those surges different. I got the impression that Adolin doesn't feel anything romantic for Veil - how would you say this might be handled going forward if Veil and Shallan merge? If he doesn't find Veil attractive, even when wearing Shallan's face, then wouldn't that make it awkward?

2) I agree that Adolin is a stable person. He is probably the least broken person we've seen in any of the books. It doesnt automatically make him good for Shallan of course, but she could do worse in terms of his genuine desire to help her.

3) I actually think that Shallan and Kaladin having opposite ways of coping are what would make it both interesting and beneficial for them both. They could both do with learning a bit of each other's thought processes so that they get a wider variety of coping mechanisms each. Adolin currently seems to be allowing Shallan to hide imo. This is the opposite of what she allegedly wanted at the end of WoR. 

4) Not to be mean, but there weren't any complicated ideas for Adolin to have to keep up with. He knew who the killer was in the Sadeas investigation so he gets no props for spotting the copy-cat killer thing. Were there any academic subjects brought up that he contributed to? He wasn't even in the driving seat for Elhokar's plans to get an army to storm the palace. There is nothing wrong with being average, but lets not pretend he is clever. Jasnah is clever, Shallan is clever, Renarin is clever, Kaladin is clever. Adolin, according to all the in-book evidence we have, is ordinary.

So I do see your point regarding the idea that the relationship was already working, but I think it smacks a little too much of the idea of "Love the one you're with". Shallan is young enough that she doesn't need to rush things and can take her time making sure she's the right choice. I do think that Adolin forced her into it a little bit because he tried to break it off, so she felt she had to convince him not to. Then they ended up getting married moments later (well thats what it felt like). I just feel that if you are seriously contemplating another person, then its not ok to go and marry the person you are with. You shouldn't have to convince yourself that they are right.

 

2 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Why should we think that Shallan is done with her growth just because she married?  She is taking control as Wit advised but still not completely by a long shot. Kaladin is still working on his issues here in book 3, why won't Shallan still be working on hers in book 4?

...

  I think Shallan finally made hers on the wall in TC when she took control of Veil and just waved at Kaladin and walked away. That was very deliberate. 

I don't think that this is what people are saying. The issue is that if Adolin is enabling her, then she won't improve. If he allows her to treat her condtition as though it were normal, then how can she progress? I think you think that she is no longer dissociating? Or at least that she has started to improve. Based on how I understand her likely diagnosis, I disagree and I am worried that she cannot grow if he is encouraged to keep her alts separate. It isn't the marriage per se that is the issue. Its the fact that she seems inclined to keep her alts separate that is. Her marriage to Adolin is symptomatic, not aetiological of her situation.

So, I get where you are coming from as Shallan controls Veil and Radiant. However this strategy can only work in the short term for OSDD, she ultimately needs to put her alts together and re-form her core.  Having control may allow her to lean coping mechanisms for her anxiety, but it also might lead her to a situation where she reinforces the walls so strongly that breaking them down becomes near impossible. This means that she becomes at even greater risk of a significant breakdown, even in relatively unstressful periods.

2 hours ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

So, a few points. I don't think anyone is saying that marriage makes someone stop growing. I think what worries people is that Shallan will use the marriage as an excuse to stop growing. In addition, the fact that she had to take control of Veil in the first place is actually the issue. A sign of resolution would be that Veil did not need to be reined in. 

And as to other characters still working on issues: I agree that other characters aren't done growing. However, one thing is noticeable; Shallan is the only person who remains regressed by the end of a book. Kaladin breaks his oaths and regresses in WoR. However, by the end of the book, he is better than he was in the beginning. Dalinar turns back to alcohol. But by the end of the book, he is at the best place he has been in his entire life. Shallan, so far, is the only member of the main three who ends a book worse off in her development than she was at the beginning of the book. I feel like a lot of things started going downhill after the Re-Shephir incident.

This criticism is completely valid. IRL, moving forward and growing up is a slow, difficult process. But as I said, the reason people are responding like this is because that was not how it worked in the series up until this point. I'm pretty sure the majority of Sanderson's books follow the whole rise-fall-rise back up dynamic. Sazed did it. Elend did it. Wax, to an extent is doing it. There are other examples, but my point is that while it's a little unrealistic, it is the norm in most fiction, including Sanderson's. That's why this is a bit surprising.

Yes - this.

47 minutes ago, SLNC said:

The way I see it: Shallan has an identity problem (heh, hear me out, please ), kind of like Kaladin had in WoR. He wasn't sure if he really wanted to embrace becoming a Knight Radiant, because for him, that would have meant becoming lighteyed. He was torn between his desire to protect and his hate for lighteyes, which led him to kill Syl until he had an epiphany at the end of the book. With Shallan it is similar, I think, as everyone is calling her a Radiant, but she herself doesn't identify as one, because all it ever did was bring her unhappiness and pain. She is more than capable, but not willing, going so far to even split of the parts of her personality, that give her the ability to a different personality called Radiant. Shallan just seeks happiness, but is afraid of the pain of attaining the happiness through acceptance of her past. I keep going back to what Tyn said:

Shallan is basically lying to herself, and believes those lies, by creating this dream of just being happy with Adolin, while she actually needs to be a Knight Radiant, a Lightweaver, to be precise, which walk the path of attaining self-awareness. She is doing the complete opposite. She is denying being self-aware by pushing away every unwanted feeling (including her attraction to Kaladin) towards those personas she has created and alienated from her core personality. She keeps her personas and thinks she can juggle it. Be the Lightweaver by being those personas sometimes and being the optimized Shallan, who is the happy wife to Adolin. But, here's the thing, to be self-aware also includes to be aware of ones faults and failures, which is the quintessence of what Wit is trying to tell her. Shallan is all of it. Optimized Shallan, Veil, Radiant, her failures and her pain. And even with all of these perceived 'bad' things, she is still a wonderful woman, that deserves to exist. That isn't useless.

Agh so many good points so little time. The point in bold is really important. She seems to hate being identified as a Radiant at the end of WoR and that doesn't stop into OB. I agree that Tyn's advice was a very good and potentiall revealing piece of foreshadowing.

The selfawareness is vital for all KR I believe - look at Dalinar's arc - but especially so for Lightweavers. The ship element of it is a side issue. Whilst Shallan doesn't know herself, how can she know what she wants? In tWoK she was desperate to stay with Jasnah despite knowing she had to steal the soulcaster. By Jasnah's return, she seems to have lost any desire to be a decent ward. Where did her desire to learn go? Why did it go? She got a bit of it back with the Mandras on the boat but she dissociates again almost immediately for other reasons. She herself doesn't see to know why her desire stopped and whilst she apologises to Jasnah, I didn't get the impression that she was massively invested in scholarship anymore. She spent so  much time in WoR reading and working but thats all fallen off too. She draws but there seem to be fewer investigative drawings (ie with the notes on natural history) than previously too. It's really sad. She used to get so much pleasure from those things - indeed she got really excited about the Mandras and that was one of the few times she got really animated in the whole book. Its fine to get excited about Adolin and I'd rather she felt giddy than nothing at all, but the drawings were something that she did that made her happy. They didn't rely on an outsider.

28 minutes ago, firegazer said:

So, I cannot quote from my phone, but I wanted very much to make a point about a previous post very quickly which referenced the fact that a woman should be able to make the conscious choice to conform to societal expectations and still be considered feminist. I agree that this is the case! But here’s the oddity to me: in this case, it is a male author MAKING a female character make this decision. It is not a real, live woman making this decision. I am not saying that it’s impossible for a male author to do right, but that surely complicates the heck out of things, doesn’t it?

Definitely. It is also the same thing when saying that one can get annoyed about mothers in books having no agency. It isn't that real life mothers have no agency so much as authors tend not do it. 

 

And I'm finally done. Sorry for epic level post. If it needs splitting/modifying let me know.

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

5 hours ago, SLNC said:

There was, but you're right. The characters in question are very different from K, S and A.

I made a parallelism on it a few days ago and I mentioned that I don't think the characters have much in common, if anything, just that I found a lot of similarities between the two situations and the difference in the handling of the two situations were jolting, at least to me, as I don't just see it as different handling, but as poor handling, in my opinion and for the time being if it remains as it is. But I digress, the fact that we're talking about different characters within different books probably accounts for all that.

 

5 hours ago, SLNC said:

The main thing is, that Sanderson very often used this arranged marriage thing, which then always miraculously works out... Which I guess is our main worry, since it would not only diminish Shallan's character that has been built as strong and independent, but also reaffirm an author-related trope, which is always bad, because it reinforces predictability.

Completely agree. Another thing that worries me is that outside of this thread, noboby seems to be the least bit troubled, and instead we seem to be the curmudgeons who don't want Shallan and Adolin to be happry, so we ascribe meaning where there's none. I am not worried that they may be right, although I did at some point before this post got so huge, just that our worries will be dismissed or ignored as such. But,as I've said, I have to hope that feedback is received from various sources and at an objective basis.

Edited November 27, 2017 by DimChatz

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Actually, I disagree with the bit i put in bold. If she'd truly recombined, even for a moment, she'd be seen as one, not three. She still sees her alts as intrinsic to her ability to function. She needs to get past that and see that she already is all three. 

Alright... I guess, that came out wrong

How I meant it is, that it is a clear hint, I'd even call it evidence, that Veil and Radiant are just parts of Shallan and not different entities, because their 'identities' were 'melding'. It is true, that, our narrator, Shallan still sees them as separate after that, so I agree with you. I just meant to express something different.

Offtopic: Get well soon and good job with keeping track of all of this. I'm really impressed!

Edited November 27, 2017 by SLNC

[Darvys]

33 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Pattern gets drowsy towards the beginning of WoR too. Shallan even wonders if spren can get drowsy as well. She never bothers to answer that question for herself. I don't quite see how they relate explicitly but the interaction happens at pag 421 of 1080 (kindle) 38% of the way through in chapter 36. She has just killed Tyn and seems to be pretending that she hasn't, in that she doesn't acknowledge it in her monologue. Its possibly a bit of a stretch so if anyone else can put together the ideas please do so for me!

Went looking for the passage, i think back there he was just ignoring her while she was having something of a fit, the "mmm"s he gave her are what i expect from someone who can't be bothered to answer. We also saw in her later exchange with Kaladin that she doesn't have much trouble thinking of her killing Tyn. I could be wrong, but that's how i read that bit.

36 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Um, do we honestly think that it was ok for Adolin to murder Sadeas? I get that it was never going to be a main arc because Adolin is a side character, but I am surprised at how it was literally glossed over.

Shallan basically had no reaction to it whatsoever....

Hm, i think it was what needed to be done, yes. I don't agree however that it was glossed over, once you accept that Adolin was smart enough not to just blurt out his guilt and risk dooming his father's efforts at unifying the high princes and later Roshar just to ease his conscience, you can begin to see that events unfolded in a realistic manner. There was nothing linking Adolin to the murder, i doubt forensic science is a thing on Roshar so there was no way for the investigation to lead anywhere, as for repercussions of the murder, Sadeas's soldiers assumed it was Dalinar and we saw how that ended, Ialai did what little she could to hamper Dalinar, if you think there's more she could have done to any effect, i'm curious to know what. For the personal level, Adolin has only just come clean with his father, it's too soon to guess how that will affect their relationship, and Shallan took it the way you'd expect a woman who was forced to kill three people that we know of to. If you expected more from this arc, i'd like to know what exactly.

[firegazer]

My goodness this thread is prolific. I’ll be honest, I’m almost to the point where I can’t keep up for work, but I’ll probably stick around at least a bit longer.

I can feel some of my discussions with people heading off track, but I simply can’t resist responding to one last tangent. In particular, allow me to address what I consider to be one of the queer sacred cows of writing: organic writing. Yes, it’s fantastic to be able to get so into your character’s headspace that they start seemingly making decisions on their own. That doesn’t make the decisions they make the best decisions for your plot, for their character development, or for the society in which you’re releasing this story. Good authors don’t just enter a flow state, write their entire story organically, and call it a day — otherwise there would be no need for editors or beta readers! Moreover, when I say something like “all character choices are authorial choices,” I am not suggesting that the author cannot write organically or that they are somehow a bad person for deciding to have a villain make an evil choice, for instance. What I am saying is that at the end of the day, it is their book and therefore their responsibility. They wrote it — not some figment of their imagination divorced from their body. As Sanderson just spent an ENTIRE book exploring, you may be able to pretend to be someone else fantastically well, but that doesn’t mean that they are actually a separate person from the whole you, or that you should be able to claim that they are.

This is easier for readers to grasp when they are critiquing work they don’t like or else when there’s an egregious example of “goodness, THAT was a poor choice in the current environment,” but harder to do when it’s a favourite author or genre. A book without a single female character in it can be “organically” written, but that doesn’t make it any less a weird and criticism-worthy authorial choice. “Hey, where are all the mothers in this fantasy world where kids clearly exist?” has embarrassed more than one author at this point.

And identity of an author DOES matter because of this. However well I might pretend to be Veil, I’m still not actually Veil — I’m Shallan. I haven’t actually had the experiences I am pretending to have, and it will come through in ways I may not expect. Sanderson may be quite good at pretending to be a woman. That doesn’t make him a woman, and it does not, in my view, give him the unqualified right to have a female character decide to embrace a traditional female role wholeheartedly without some amount of criticism. We’ve barely started letting female characters choose AGAINST tradition. It’s not neat or subversive to me as a reader for a male author to suddenly say “yes, but what if a woman WANTS to be traditional?”

I’m going to try to leave it at that, as this is quite a divergence from the thread title. If anyone wants to discuss philosophy and ethics of writing with me, please feel free to PM. Otherwise, I think it’s just safe for people to assume that I remain sceptical of some of Sanderson’s authorial choices, and I am hoping that in the next book he does not pursue a young mother Shallan, even if he has already chosen to repeat his arranged marriage trope.

[Harbour he/him]

Ironic. The only reason Shallan was betrothed was to protect her brothers. And right before her marriage her brothers turned back safe and betrothal has no purpose now.

Now the only reason for her to marry Adolin is, i guess, love(?)

Edited November 27, 2017 by Harbour

[firegazer]

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

Hm, i think it was what needed to be done, yes. I don't agree however that it was glossed over, once you accept that Adolin was smart enough not to just blurt out his guilt and risk dooming his father's efforts at unifying the high princes and later Roshar just to ease his conscience, you can begin to see that events unfolded in a realistic manner.

A point I feel needs to be considered here: if there weren't the possibility of consequences for Adolin's murder of Sadeas, there would be no tension involved in him being assigned to investigate his own murder. If it wasn't important, I don't see why Sanderson bothered raising the stakes at all, so to speak. At the very least, we could have benefitted from him taking a few lines in Adolin's head to lay out the actual conflict: that Adolin didn't feel guilty, but that he knew it could have political consequences.

Even if that's the case -- if the only consequences are political -- then the plot still falls flat. No one ever proved that Adolin did it, and yet all the same consequences unfolded anyway just because people assumed that someone in Dalinar's camp did it. Adolin could have never been assigned to investigate his own murder, and all the same things would have happened. We didn't even get any good character development out of Adolin thinking about WHY he didn't feel guilty, or how the murder affected him as a character. *grump, grump, grumble, grumble*

[DeployParachute]

3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

A better secret would be that she tried to become Jasnah's ward to steal the soulcaster from her.

Yet another thing that Shallan has told Kaladin, but not Adolin (that we know of). I mean, she could still do it off screen during the time gap, but for the moment, why tell Kaladin and not Adolin.  In fact, why does Kaladin know more about Shallan's darker secrets and past than Adolin at the time of the wedding?  She and Adolin have obviously spent way more time together in the books?  Yes, Shallan has "plans" to tell Adolin (ha ha ha, my Mac auto corrected "Adolin" to "Adonis" just now, fitting, no?) more things, like the Ghostbloods etc.  But will she?  How much is Adolin going to know about Shallan/Veil/Radiant by the start of SA4?  I wonder.  

Maybe she will tell him everything now that they are married and everything is rainbow farts and sunshine sprinkles, but then if that ends up being the case then why did you write ANY of the Shalladin interactions the way you did, Brandon?  WHYYYY?

I think we need to start coming up with a new denotation system for referencing the various incarnations of the Shallan persona/alt/whatever you want to call it.  I'll draw upon my engineering background, and make suggestions based on RELEASE numbers:

Shallan 0 - The original of the original, what Shallan was or could of been prior to the killing of her mother

Shallan 1.0 - The Shallan we see at the start of, and through TWoK.  She is broken on the inside, but has pushed the memories away, and functions while supressing her childhood.

Shallan 1.5 - WoR Shallan.  Very similar to Shallan 1.0, but with the additional facade added and presented to Adolin.  Also exclusive Veil content available for unlock by playing secret missions.

Shallan 2.0 - OB Shallan.  Completely reworked persona, with all those pesky bugs like pain, hurt, and truth removed.  This Shallan has been optimized for consumption by Adolin, the perfect model of an Alethi woman.  Additional playable Veil and Radiant modes available as DLC.

Anyway, @PhineasGage, I think that your responses are amazing, but also pushing up against the limits that a traditional forum format allows.  Seriously, I just kept reading, and scrolling, and reading, and scrolling the post that seemed to never end (not that I particularly object to that).  If you don't put all your comments on this thread into another 30 page continuation of your Shalladin thesis, I'm going to be very disappointed. 

Edited November 27, 2017 by DeployParachute

[Darvys]

9 minutes ago, firegazer said:

A point I feel needs to be considered here: if there weren't the possibility of consequences for Adolin's murder of Sadeas, there would be no tension involved in him being assigned to investigate his own murder. If it wasn't important, I don't see why Sanderson bothered raising the stakes at all, so to speak.

Yes i can understand that this kind of teasing was arguably of poor taste knowing that there were readers with higher expectations from this particular plot, personaly when i read it i only shook my head and smiled, it didn't really change my mind on how i thought the affair would likely be handled. The only thing i can say in its defence is that it didn't feel forced as the reasoning that led to it was sound.

15 minutes ago, firegazer said:

Even if that's the case -- if the only consequences are political -- then the plot still falls flat. No one ever proved that Adolin did it, and yet all the same consequences unfolded anyway just because people assumed that someone in Dalinar's camp did it. Adolin could have never been assigned to investigate his own murder, and all the same things would have happened. We didn't even get any good character development out of Adolin thinking about WHY he didn't feel guilty, or how the murder affected him as a character. *grump, grump, grumble, grumble*

I don't quite agree with this though, it is one thing for Dalinar's opposition to assume the worst and act on it, but it would have been far worse if the factions he was still reaching to include knew for a fact that the Blackthorn was still executing all who stood in his way, it would be fruitless speculation to try to predict what would have happened instead, but i think it's not a stretch to assume it would have been far more difficult to earn the trust of the other monarchs.

I can't comment accurately on Adolin's character development yet, i need to find the time to reread his povs, but aren't the reasons that pushed him to kill Sadeas enough for him not to feel guilty about it ?

[WesHenry]

I’m gonna say, I read this board before finishing the book. And I thought the love triangle was gonna be handled very terribly. 

I’m pleased to be wrong. I absolutely loved how it was handled AND this book took me from being a Kaladin/Shallan shipper and drove me into being all about Adolin getting his girl. 

I feel like it was wrapped up before it really took off, but I think it’s for the best! Because I really wanna see Adolin and Kaladin have a closer relationship and now that won’t get messed with. 

With Kaladin admitting he never loved her and Shallan admitting she truly loved Adolin. Her overcoming Radiant and Veil to choose Adolin showed major growth and it was great to see. 

Sanderson in one of his classes explained that if he ever wrote a love triangle he’d write it like Twilight. Where there’s a pull and a struggle, but you never really doubt that it’s gonna be Edward who gets the girl, that way even the people who wanted the girl to get with the werewolf weren’t super disappointed because they never deep down truly believed she’ll be with anyone besides Edward. So I believe the “Kaladin and Shallan weren’t explored enough” thing was intentional. That way we’re never totally convinced she’ll end up with anyone besides Adolin. 

Im glad the love triangle is over (Sanderson as a Mormon is gonna hold marriage as a sacred thing I believe) it served its purpose already. And the purpose wasn’t to make us wonder who, but it was there to grow 5 characters (Kaladin, Syl, Adolin, Shallan, and Pattern) with the Spren it wasn’t MAJOR development, but it still was development. Adolin really shone through as a man of honor, and I needed that after seeing him murder someone, plus he proves in the book that he loves Shallan where Kaladin proves he never did. Shallan overcame her personalities on a greater level on top of the fact that she now officially has an anchor (not to remove girl power or anything), but we all need someone who recognizes us for who we really are (Adolin would notice her little changes in personality and understand what it was when nobody else did.). Patter who knows Shallan well seemed to prefer Adolin. Kaladin admitted in the end of the book that his attraction was just out of the fact that she gave him something his dead brother gave him, along with a flashback about Tarah, I think it’s clear that he realized he doesn’t know how to love a woman yet and I think we’ll see someone come along and work that out of him. Plus this served as a conduit for Syl to learn about Tien! That’s gonna he a big step for him and so the love triangle serves to actually bond Kaladin and Syl more which I liked! (Side note, I was Syl to stop being a punk to Adolin.)

 

so ya! All good things. Loved the book but most importantly I loved that the only part of the series that gave me a level of “I dont wanna deal with this” has been dealt with haha. 

[firegazer]

3 minutes ago, Darvys said:

I can't comment accurately on Adolin's character development yet, i need to find the time to reread his povs, but aren't the reasons that pushed him to kill Sadeas enough for him not to feel guilty about it ?

I don't think that "couldn't we just guess at the character's point of view on the matter based on one scene from the previous book while in a moment of passion" is sufficient for us to glean the basis of this conflict or its potential consequences. We don't live in this world of Sanderson's -- if the consequences of a straight-up murder are different there than they are here, whether for setting reasons or for plot reasons, he HAS to explain that to us somehow, or else we are likely to misinterpret. Even just a few lines in Adolin's head to the tune of "I don't regret I did it, and I don't think anyone's going to court martial me over it, but it could be really bad news for my father's current negotiations" would give us what we need to adjust our expectations to the context of the plot and explain why he is uneasy in all of these scenes where people are talking about the murder in front of him.

[firegazer]

2 minutes ago, WesHenry said:

Sanderson in one of his classes explained that if he ever wrote a love triangle he’d write it like Twilight.

Even as a relative non-shipper, I... feel like this says about all that needs to be said about how some people enjoyed this plot and others did not.

There is, to be fair, an entire meme on the internet right now based solely on how many people think that Twilight is a terribly-written love story.

[shawnhargreaves he/him]

3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

<much stuff that I agree with>

I just want to point out that @PhineasGage wins this thread.

There is no need for any further posts :-)

[FuzzyWordsmith]

1 minute ago, WesHenry said:

I’m gonna say, I read this board before finishing the book. And I thought the love triangle was gonna be handled very terribly. 

I’m pleased to be wrong. I absolutely loved how it was handled AND this book took me from being a Kaladin/Shallan shipper and drove me into being all about Adolin getting his girl. 

I feel like it was wrapped up before it really took off, but I think it’s for the best! Because I really wanna see Adolin and Kaladin have a closer relationship and now that won’t get messed with. 

With Kaladin admitting he never loved her and Shallan admitting she truly loved Adolin. Her overcoming Radiant and Veil to choose Adolin showed major growth and it was great to see. 

Sanderson in one of his classes explained that if he ever wrote a love triangle he’d write it like Twilight. Where there’s a pull and a struggle, but you never really doubt that it’s gonna be Edward who gets the girl, that way even the people who wanted the girl to get with the werewolf weren’t super disappointed because they never deep down truly believed she’ll be with anyone besides Edward. So I believe the “Kaladin and Shallan weren’t explored enough” thing was intentional. That way we’re never totally convinced she’ll end up with anyone besides Adolin. 

Im glad the love triangle is over (Sanderson as a Mormon is gonna hold marriage as a sacred thing I believe) it served its purpose already. And the purpose wasn’t to make us wonder who, but it was there to grow 5 characters (Kaladin, Syl, Adolin, Shallan, and Pattern) with the Spren it wasn’t MAJOR development, but it still was development. Adolin really shone through as a man of honor, and I needed that after seeing him murder someone, plus he proves in the book that he loves Shallan where Kaladin proves he never did. Shallan overcame her personalities on a greater level on top of the fact that she now officially has an anchor (not to remove girl power or anything), but we all need someone who recognizes us for who we really are (Adolin would notice her little changes in personality and understand what it was when nobody else did.). Patter who knows Shallan well seemed to prefer Adolin. Kaladin admitted in the end of the book that his attraction was just out of the fact that she gave him something his dead brother gave him, along with a flashback about Tarah, I think it’s clear that he realized he doesn’t know how to love a woman yet and I think we’ll see someone come along and work that out of him. Plus this served as a conduit for Syl to learn about Tien! That’s gonna he a big step for him and so the love triangle serves to actually bond Kaladin and Syl more which I liked! (Side note, I was Syl to stop being a punk to Adolin.)

 

so ya! All good things. Loved the book but most importantly I loved that the only part of the series that gave me a level of “I dont wanna deal with this” has been dealt with haha. 

So, uh. I guess this is the a good illustration of the dichotomy of the fandom. I would rehash the arguments of why Adolin doesn't know the real her, or why she has not healed but instead regressed and that an anchor is the opposite of healthy, or why dropping the Shalladin hints are jarring. I could point out why Adolin seems a bit too perfect and that Shallan is more divided than she was at the start. But it's been said multiple times in this thread by people more eloquent than myself. At the end of the day, people will interpret it how they want to interpret it. I am fascinated now though. If the people who consider this a magical happy ending turn out to be wrong, then how will they feel when it all comes crashing down in the sequels? Will the roles be reversed, with people predicting that being delighted, and people who enjoyed the sappy magic feeling betrayed? That alone makes the wait seem undearable.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, WesHenry said:

Shallan overcame her personalities on a greater level on top of the fact that she now officially has an anchor (not to remove girl power or anything), but we all need someone who recognizes us for who we really are

Wait a minute... You're telling me, that she overcame her personality problems (she hasn't), because she now has an anchor, who recognizes her for who she really is (she isn't). Isn't anchoring yourself to a third party the exact opposite of overcoming OSDD?

Edited November 27, 2017 by SLNC

[Darvys]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

 Isn't anchoring yourself the exact opposite of overcoming dissociation?

This is an interesting question, as no i think it wouldn't be if the other personnas were pure fabrications, this isn't Shallan's case who has been chipping at her Self bit by bit and attaching the pieces to different personnas.

12 minutes ago, firegazer said:

I don't think that "couldn't we just guess at the character's point of view on the matter based on one scene from the previous book while in a moment of passion" is sufficient for us to glean the basis of this conflict or its potential consequences. We don't live in this world of Sanderson's -- if the consequences of a straight-up murder are different there than they are here, whether for setting reasons or for plot reasons, he HAS to explain that to us somehow, or else we are likely to misinterpret. 

There's no arguing against this, it simply didn't bother me in this particular case because nothing came to contradict my assumptions.

[straits]

5 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Wait a minute... You're telling me, that she overcame her personality problems (she hasn't), because she now has an anchor, who recognizes her for who she really is (she isn't). Isn't anchoring yourself to a third party the exact opposite of overcoming dissociation?

I think the best you can say for Shallan's state of mind at the end of OB is "happily broken and not wanting to change that".

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Darvys said:

This is an interesting question, as no i think it wouldn't be if the other personnas were pure fabrications, this isn't Shallan's case who has been chipping at her Self bit by bit and attaching the pieces to different personnas.

I should have been more specific and called it OSDD, which is significantly different from what we call dissociation, as in DID.

[DeployParachute]

57 minutes ago, WesHenry said:

I’m gonna say, I read this board before finishing the book. And I thought the love triangle was gonna be handled very terribly. 

Hi, welcome to the boards, and thanks for sharing.  That was pretty risky, reading a forum post like this before finishing the book.  Glad it worked out for you.  That being said:

57 minutes ago, WesHenry said:

I’m pleased to be wrong. I absolutely loved how it was handled AND this book took me from being a Kaladin/Shallan shipper and drove me into being all about Adolin getting his girl. 

To each their own, I guess, but the line "Adolin getting his girl" bothers me on so many levels, most notably the fact that it reduces Adolin's role in this series as one of revolving around his relationship with Shallan.  All other aspects of his plot arc and character development that seemed so promising going into this book (Sadeas, his relationship with his father, etc) were severely diminished or ignored this book.  I can't see how Adolin is going to have any meaningful or interesting growth moving forward now that it seems that he is at his "end game" of "getting his girl".  It is frustrating for me as a reader who had grown more attached to the potential for this character.

57 minutes ago, WesHenry said:

With Kaladin admitting he never loved her and Shallan admitting she truly loved Adolin. Her overcoming Radiant and Veil to choose Adolin showed major growth and it was great to see. 

Did they though?  

Spoiler

He squinted down at Shallan and Adolin, and found that he couldn't be bitter.  He didn't feel resignation either.  Instead he felt ... agreement?

For Kaladin's viewpoint, why did Sanderson leave the wording as such?  Why the "?" punctuation?  Does Kaladin really still know what his feelings are?  Perhaps, perhaps not.

Spoiler

She was occasionally them, but they were not her

Sounds like you are one of the majority of people who take what Shallan thinks here at face value: that Veil and Radiant are not "parts" of Shallan that she split off so that her main doesn't have to deal with them, but instead just some made up characters she occasionally loses herself in.  A normal interpretation to take, I guess.  But at the same time, does she really believe this?  If these are just characters that she has to "dominate", then why do they even still appear to her at all?  If they aren't part of her psyche, then how/why do they appear to her as distinct entities when she is getting ready for her wedding?  What of Wit's advise that they ARE all her, and she them?  

57 minutes ago, WesHenry said:

Sanderson in one of his classes explained that if he ever wrote a love triangle he’d write it like Twilight. Where there’s a pull and a struggle, but you never really doubt that it’s gonna be Edward who gets the girl, that way even the people who wanted the girl to get with the werewolf weren’t super disappointed because they never deep down truly believed she’ll be with anyone besides Edward. So I believe the “Kaladin and Shallan weren’t explored enough” thing was intentional. That way we’re never totally convinced she’ll end up with anyone besides Adolin. 

If BS really truly said this in a class, then I am gravely, truly disappointed in his lack of confidence or desire to tackle this plot in a way that challenges Twilight.  To think that he only wrote the Chasm scene, and all the other foreshadowing items in WoR just as a means to keep me thinking that there might be a chance, while deep down truly knowing that it was always going to be Adolin does not put his romance writing in a very good place for me.  If it was always going to be Adolin, then come up with a different, non competing romantic narrative to challenge Shallan and Adolin to overcome before getting together.  It's garbage, especially given how most fans are so opposed to triangles in the first place, why do it that way at all?

57 minutes ago, WesHenry said:

Im glad the love triangle is over (Sanderson as a Mormon is gonna hold marriage as a sacred thing I believe) it served its purpose already. And the purpose wasn’t to make us wonder who, but it was there to grow 5 characters (Kaladin, Syl, Adolin, Shallan, and Pattern) with the Spren it wasn’t MAJOR development, but it still was development. Adolin really shone through as a man of honor, and I needed that after seeing him murder someone, plus he proves in the book that he loves Shallan where Kaladin proves he never did. Shallan overcame her personalities on a greater level on top of the fact that she now officially has an anchor (not to remove girl power or anything), but we all need someone who recognizes us for who we really are (Adolin would notice her little changes in personality and understand what it was when nobody else did.)

First off, i would say that the "growth" that occurred in these characters could all have been done without the triangle subplot.  Also, I don't know just how much Kaladin himself grew from this.  Shallan's growth is debatable, and really boils down to whether you think her end state was net positive from start to finish of OB, or net negative.  Above you describe Shallan as needing to overcome Radiant and Veil, but here describe them as personalities to overcome?  Is that what we are to take from this? that things that make up our personalities are things to be subjugated and overcame?  Are Veil and Radiant reflections of her personality traits or not?  And if they are, then how is Shallan in a "grown" state at the end of OB if they still remain separate and distinct entities from her?  Also, Shallan herself SAYS that the face she has worn for Adolin is also a mask.  How do you resolve that into being a positive thing for Adolin?

Quote

Im glad the love triangle is over (Sanderson as a Mormon is gonna hold marriage as a sacred thing I believe) it served its purpose already.

I mean, his LDS beliefs did not stop him from gradually exploring and/or adding topics that inherently go against canonical LDS beliefs: for example two men being in a meaningful and healthy relationship.  I think (or thought) that using his religion as a reason for why he would NEVER tackle certain issues in his books was unfair to the author, and severely limiting for his growth as a writer.  I doubt that there is no conceivable scenario in which Brandon would agree that a divorce is probably the best outcome for all parties.  To think otherwise seems to paint BS as some kind of fanatic, which he is not.

Edited November 27, 2017 by DeployParachute
mistakenly put LSD instead of LDS (Latter Day Saints)

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

49 minutes ago, WesHenry said:

this book took me from being a Kaladin/Shallan shipper and drove me into being all about Adolin getting his girl.

 

49 minutes ago, WesHenry said:

that the only part of the series that gave me a level of “I dont wanna deal with this” has been dealt with haha

Sorry, but I don't get that... You were a Shalladin shipper this book turned you into a Shadolin shipper and at the same time you don't want to deal with this?

 

49 minutes ago, WesHenry said:

(Sanderson as a Mormon is gonna hold marriage as a sacred thing I believe)

Not necessarily, in the past he was hesitant to include LBGT characters but that isn't the case anymore (i.e. Drehy).

49 minutes ago, WesHenry said:

Adolin really shone through as a man of honor

He covered the truth about him murdering Sadeas throughout the book. That isn't honorable, I'm sorry but it's not. Whether it was the right move to is another matter.

 

49 minutes ago, WesHenry said:

I feel like it was wrapped up before it really took off

If it was never to take off why include it in general? Would'n it be better for Adolin's and Kaladin's possible relationship to not have this point of possible friction?

Look as @FuzzyWordsmith said I could go sentence by sentence and tell you what I disagree with you, but all the points you made have mentioned alreary a billion times and found wanting. What I'll say though is that you are receiving everything at face value, which is fine, and you're stating what's obvious from the text, but in a literary work you have to look what's behind it. You say you have read this thread and yet you don't even try to tell us why you think we're wrong, you just say everyone is, everything is resolved, because Shallan and Adolin got their happily ever after and it's magiacal and cute and that'll fix all. Now I'm not saying you're wrong, or that we aren't over- analyzing things, and what you say might be what actually happens, depsite all the hints to the contrary, but if this is true then I'm sorry but for me it'll be badly written and ploted, and will definitely diminish my enjoyment.

Anyway, welcome and thanks for joining. I hope I wasn't all that harsh, as to turn you away and if you somehow feel offended I apologize.

Also, what @DeployParachute said which I just saw and very much agree with. He put much more meticulously that me and in more depth.

Edited November 27, 2017 by DimChatz

[Rainier]

5 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

The selfawareness is vital for all KR I believe - look at Dalinar's arc - but especially so for Lightweavers. The ship element of it is a side issue.

This, plus what @SLNC was saying earlier, are the reasons why I'm upset with this. This isn't a 10 book series about romance, it's a 10 book series about the apocalypse and people becoming gods to deal with it. Shallan is not primarily a romance figure, or even a woman. She's first and foremost a Lightweaver, just as every other Radiant is primarily an example of their order. That's the point of the series, that's the main source of all conflict, and that's what I'm expecting to pay off.

Shallan marrying Adolin seems like Kaladin agreeing to murder Elhokar. I don't see how Shallan stays married to Adolin and keeps Pattern alive at the same time. Given her fractured personality on her very wedding day along with the Ghostbloods (Shallan's #2 most important role, by the way) wanting and assuming Veil is the real identity, I think Pattern's doomed. Granted, I expected it in this book, not the next one. I figured that Shallans conflicting responsibilities (to Adolin and Jasnah as Shallan, ward and betrothed; to the Ghostbloods as Veil, initiate; to the Radiants and Dalinar as the eponymous Radiant) would tear her apart leaving Pattern dead in her wake. I'm still of the opinion that this is where she's going, but by going through the marriage I'm afraid that it's just going to end these other threads.

Here's what I think, summarized:

1. 'Shallan' is a persona of True-Shallan that pretends to be OK. This is who Adolin marries.
2. Pattern will die because True-Shallan can't reconcile her three dominant personalities.
3. Kaladin, never seeing anything other than a single, complicated person, is the best romantic choice for True-Shallan, despite their contradictions and conflicts.
4. If this truly is the end, and a happy end, Brandon isn't half the author I thought he was.

Oh, and @PhineasGage is as much ship's cat as Mogget was just a cat along for the ride. I can't be the only one to have read Garth Nix Sabriel/Lirael/Abhorsen, can I?

 

 

50 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

I mean, his LSD beliefs did not stop him from gradually exploring and/or adding topics that inherently go against canonical LSD beliefs: for example two men being in a meaningful and healthy relationship.

I'm quoting this for posterity, because if Brandon had LSD beliefs I think we'd get more theorizing on the nature of god and the universe and less on literal avatars of god duking it out. 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Rainier

[DeployParachute]

4 minutes ago, Rainier said:

 

I'm quoting this for posterity, because if Brandon had LSD beliefs I think we'd get more theorizing on the nature of god and the universe and less on literal avatars of god duking it out. 

Oh geez, just realized what I did.  LSD has now been corrected to LDS (Latter Day Saints) in my post.  D'oh...