[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Stormlightning she/her]

On 11/25/2017 at 7:26 AM, Starla said:

@Stormlightning I would be curious to hear your thoughts on Shallan's character growth throughout Oathgringer. Do you feel that she progressed or regressed in her mental health and in her development as a radiant by the end? Do you feel that she is healthy enough to enter into a long-term relationship? Do you think her marriage will help resolve her identity issues? Is she closer to saying her next ideal/truth? I would love to hear from more folks who are happy with her progress this book.

At severe risk of exposing my ignorance because I haven't been following this thread, I'll answer this and the other questions directed at me here as best I can, for what counts as my opinion and nothing more.

See the bottom of the post for my brief thoughts on Shallan's character growth.

By the end of OB, I think Shallan was in a really tough place. Her dissociated identities were definitely a bad thing, and hopefully she'll take Adolin's incredible faith in her and let it be enough. If there's one thing she hasn't had, it's someone to just love her for who she is. And that's one thing I think everyone needs. Granted, there's probably a long tangent in this thread about how Adolin doesn't know her and whatnot. But I think he knows enough. He knows the person she is now--the real her, at least I think that's what Brandon was trying to make clear at the end of OB. He may not know about her past, but he can recognize when she's being genuinely herself. That's more important than any of her past.

Your last few questions is the most difficult, for me. I'm still doing my first reread of OB, and I was pretty out of it by the end of the book in my first read-though. Do I think she's ready for marriage? I would say that if she were my IRL friend, I would be like, ASH'S EYES, NO! This coming from someone who is still single at an age most of my friends are not. I tend to think maturity should come before marriage. That said, it's kind of amazing how many people I know who had to really mature up--and I mean really mature up--in their marriages, and somehow managed to without ruining the thing. That works when you do it together. Mature and grow and discover yourselves individually, but together. The difference between codependency and interdependence. I think Adolin is a really healthy person, mentally(granted we may yet discover things to change that opinion). I think he's a great person to travel that road with her.  I, personally, would have wanted them to hold off on the marriage for a while longer still, just to get their feet under them a bit more, but I've also seen plenty of situations where people made it work, so I'll forbear judgement on if it was right or not. No one ever listens to me when I tell them to wait anyway

Is she closer to saying her next ideal? Probably not. But reaching your next ideal--particularly when your next ideal is confronting a truth--isn't the only way to grow. I'm not too concerned about if she's closer to her next ideal or not. I think she has room for growth in plenty of directions that will keep her an interesting and viable character, even if she doesn't reach any new oaths soon.

On 11/25/2017 at 6:09 AM, PhineasGage said:

@Stormlightning I'd personally like to hear your reasons for being on the SS Shadolin. If you don't feel comfortable airing them here. feel free to PM me.

I'll throw something really brief (haha) on this here. I was never against Shallan and Kaladin. If Adolin didn't exist, I would have gone with them happily. I think they had some good moments in those chasms, that gave them a bond. There was the slight problem of them coping in completely diametric ways (one won't let go of the past, while the other refuses to acknowledge it) that could have been difficult to reconcile. But with some further time spent together, they probably could have gotten to know each other better to a point where they would have made a fine couple.

The thing is, I just didn't want to destroy a good thing, even for the sake of another good thing. Shallan and Adolin were getting along great. From the moment they met, there was attraction. That's not essential, but it's a good thing. Shallan provided a challenge to Adolin's ways of thinking. Also a good thing. He was manly enough not to take offense to a girl who might be able to outsmart him a little. I give him major props for that. If there's one thing I love about Adolin, it's that he's a genuinely talented guy that doesn't let a whole lot go to his head. He lets people poke fun at him, and that's super attractive. And despite what some might say, he is smart enough. In OB, he keeps up. 

The difference here is time spent. Shallan had spent a lot of time getting to know each other and were still doing well. They don't beat each other down, they complement each other and are there for each other. That made it seem like it would be awfully unfair for her to ditch him because something could potentially exist with someone else. Shaladin probably could have worked. But Shadolin was already working.

This is something that comes up all the time in the LDS religion because of the missionary program. Not saying that's where Brandon got it, but it might have been on his mind because he's probably had lots of friends go through it. A girl falls for a guy, he goes off to serve a mission for two years. During that time, she meets another equally great guy, and falls for him. Much to the first guy's dismay, she gets married while he's gone. It's not like the first guy wasn't great, and couldn't have made a great husband...he just wasn't there when she was ready to take the next step. The second guy made a great husband as well. A common consensus on this dilemma is that either one could have worked. But one got her and the other didn't.

Sometimes it's not that one is more 'right' than the other. But she got to spend a lot more time with one, one that happened to have a lot of great qualities, just like the other. And in the final conflict in OB, Adolin was able to offer something extremely personal to her. And so she accepted it. I think that's a very justifiable decision. I was actually be extremely proud of her for not waffling. Doing so would have just been a commitment issue when she really hasn't spent that much time thinking about Kaladin.

Basically, Shadolin may have just worked out because he was able to spend the most time--and most meaningful time--alone with her. What happened on her adventure with Kaladin to Thaylenah? I would love to know.

I spent the early release chapters on Tor thinking "Kaladin might get his heart broken a bit. He's away from her, somewhat involuntarily letting his fondness for her grow. He doesn't have someone else to occupy his interests. But she's in a romantic relationship that is totally cute and it's working. So she would be a fool to throw away a chance that is working for one that might also work." I guess I figured out the message Brandon was trying to send because that's basically how it worked out.

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Lol, I’m sorry to drag you into this @Stormlightning though I’m doing it anyway, but this is exactly the attitude I’m talking about. It’s not about shipping but being unsatisfied with the character development of your lead female character. (Extra reactively, check.)

Haha, that's totally fine, @Dreamstorm. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I haven't been following your argument, but I didn't see anything unrealistic about the character development for any of these guys. If anything struck me as unrealistic, it was how easily Kaladin let go, but even that worked for me since he really only thought about her a handful of times since the chasms.

At risk of going way off topic, I'll say that Shallan's character development (or lack thereof) was strangely touching to me. Too many times authors have fictional characters experience a "come to" moment where they learn something and grow up. They move forward with their new realization and that's admirable. To my personal chagrin, however, this is not usually the case for me. I learn something to help me overcome my faults, I do great for like a day, go the total opposite direction for like a month, then spend the next several years actually learning to make that realization a part of my regular behavior. I also revert to a much less mature version of myself when around certain people from my younger years. I would have totally reacted the way Shallan did to Jasnah, even as I hated myself for doing it.

[GoddessIMHO]

Why should we think that Shallan is done with her growth just because she married?  She is taking control as Wit advised but still not completely by a long shot. Kaladin is still working on his issues here in book 3, why won't Shallan still be working on hers in book 4?

Dalinar, I'm sure, will still have issues too.

The thing that is clear to me is that each of us reads the same words but makes vastly different conclusions.  I didn't like the triangle either but I'm happy with the outcome.  I'm sure that it was supposed to create the drama of her choice.  People do find themselves attracted some times to more than one person.   they then have to make a choice.  I think Shallan finally made hers on the wall in TC when she took control of Veil and just waved at Kaladin and walked away. That was very deliberate. 

[Guest]

@GoddessIMHO

Wit's advice was to forgive herself and accept her past, not to stay on this path. This is not about control, but to solve the issue, that created the fractured personality in the first place. Shallan's denial to accept, that she killed her mother. The truth she spoke.

[FuzzyWordsmith]

22 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Why should we think that Shallan is done with her growth just because she married?  She is taking control as Wit advised but still not completely by a long shot. Kaladin is still working on his issues here in book 3, why won't Shallan still be working on hers in book 4?

Dalinar, I'm sure, will still have issues too.

The thing that is clear to me is that each of us reads the same words but makes vastly different conclusions.  I didn't like the triangle either but I'm happy with the outcome.  I'm sure that it was supposed to create the drama of her choice.  People do find themselves attracted some times to more than one person.   they then have to make a choice.  I think Shallan finally made hers on the wall in TC when she took control of Veil and just waved at Kaladin and walked away. That was very deliberate. 

So, a few points. I don't think anyone is saying that marriage makes someone stop growing. I think what worries people is that Shallan will use the marriage as an excuse to stop growing. In addition, the fact that she had to take control of Veil in the first place is actually the issue. A sign of resolution would be that Veil did not need to be reined in. 

And as to other characters still working on issues: I agree that other characters aren't done growing. However, one thing is noticeable; Shallan is the only person who remains regressed by the end of a book. Kaladin breaks his oaths and regresses in WoR. However, by the end of the book, he is better than he was in the beginning. Dalinar turns back to alcohol. But by the end of the book, he is at the best place he has been in his entire life. Shallan, so far, is the only member of the main three who ends a book worse off in her development than she was at the beginning of the book. I feel like a lot of things started going downhill after the Re-Shephir incident.

41 minutes ago, Stormlightning said:

At risk of going way off topic, I'll say that Shallan's character development (or lack thereof) was strangely touching to me. Too many times authors have fictional characters experience a "come to" moment where they learn something and grow up. They move forward with their new realization and that's admirable. To my personal chagrin, however, this is not usually the case for me. I learn something to help me overcome my faults, I do great for like a day, go the total opposite direction for like a month, then spend the next several years actually learning to make that realization a part of my regular behavior. I also revert to a much less mature version of myself when around certain people from my younger years. I would have totally reacted the way Shallan did to Jasnah, even as I hated myself for doing it.

This criticism is completely valid. IRL, moving forward and growing up is a slow, difficult process. But as I said, the reason people are responding like this is because that was not how it worked in the series up until this point. I'm pretty sure the majority of Sanderson's books follow the whole rise-fall-rise back up dynamic. Sazed did it. Elend did it. Wax, to an extent is doing it. There are other examples, but my point is that while it's a little unrealistic, it is the norm in most fiction, including Sanderson's. That's why this is a bit surprising.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I agree that Adolin very much wants to love all of Shallan, but at the moment, there is not a full Shallan for Adolin to love.  (Something she is open about when she tells him she wants to be with him - that she is "Three betrotheds instead of one".)  He says wants the real her, and she says, "That might be the hardest one.  But I think I can do it, Adolin.  With some help, maybe?"  So we're back to the fact Shallan is still fractured, and the best case scenario is she's asking Adolin to help find the real her...  (More likely, given what she said earlier, she's asking Adolin to help identify the Shallan persona she should be/wants to be most of the time.)

See, but I don't even know if Adolin wants to love all of Shallan. He treats Veil like a drinking buddy. Sure, I'll admit, that both he and Shallan think, that Veil is a different entity from Shallan, but we know better, that, what Veil represents, is as much a part of Shallan as her scholarly ability. Could Adolin even see this side of Shallan as lovable? Accept, that this is a part of her? Would he have fallen in love with her, if she hadn't shown him just a mask, which she openly admits she did?

The way I see it: Shallan has an identity problem (heh, hear me out, please ), kind of like Kaladin had in WoR. He wasn't sure if he really wanted to embrace becoming a Knight Radiant, because for him, that would have meant becoming lighteyed. He was torn between his desire to protect and his hate for lighteyes, which led him to kill Syl until he had an epiphany at the end of the book. With Shallan it is similar, I think, as everyone is calling her a Radiant, but she herself doesn't identify as one, because all it ever did was bring her unhappiness and pain. She is more than capable, but not willing, going so far to even split of the parts of her personality, that give her the ability to a different personality called Radiant. Shallan just seeks happiness, but is afraid of the pain of attaining the happiness through acceptance of her past. I keep going back to what Tyn said:

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"But here's the thing. The lies we tell, the dreams we create, they're not real. We can't let them be real. This might be the hardest lesson you have to learn." [Tyn] turned to Shallan, her expression having gone hard, all sense of relaxed playfulness gone. "When a good con woman dies, it's usually because she starts believing her own lies. She finds something good and wants it to continue. She keeps going, thinking she can juggle it. One day more, she tells herself. One day more, and then..."

Shallan is basically lying to herself, and believes those lies, by creating this dream of just being happy with Adolin, while she actually needs to be a Knight Radiant, a Lightweaver, to be precise, which walk the path of attaining self-awareness. She is doing the complete opposite. She is denying being self-aware by pushing away every unwanted feeling (including her attraction to Kaladin) towards those personas she has created and alienated from her core personality. She keeps her personas and thinks she can juggle it. Be the Lightweaver by being those personas sometimes and being the optimized Shallan, who is the happy wife to Adolin. But, here's the thing, to be self-aware also includes to be aware of ones faults and failures, which is the quintessence of what Wit is trying to tell her. Shallan is all of it. Optimized Shallan, Veil, Radiant, her failures and her pain. And even with all of these perceived 'bad' things, she is still a wonderful woman, that deserves to exist. That isn't useless.

I think, that Pattern's bond to Shallan is slowly, but surely dissolving and fraying, the signs are there (He warns her once, drowsily I might add and becomes very distant during Oathbringer). Right now, Shallan is ignoring it, because she has chosen momentary happiness with Adolin, will it last? We'll see, but she can't stay a Lightweaver like that, because she's actively working against an Ideal, that she killed her mother, that she spoke, which brings me to the parallelism with Kaladin

Kaladin was torn between his hate for lighteyes and being a Knight Radiant.

Shallan is torn between the hate for herself and being a Knight Radiant. It is just, that the she took the easy way out, but while doing so cemented herself in this position, because Adolin doesn't know, what she really is. Her happiness right now relies on a third party and not herself.

A partner should always boost happiness, but never be the sole reason of why you're happy.

Edit:

@Stormlightning

Thank you for your post. There a lot of good points in it, but I have the feeling, that there is a lot of idealization going on. I agree, that this marriage would probably have been a great thing, if this had been a pure romance novel, but it isn't. You see, Shallan's main function, as a character, is not to be Adolin's or Kaladin's partner, but rather be a Lightweaver. I'm worried about how this might overshadow her progress in that regard, or even, as hinted by Pattern's worry and his strange distance, completely reset it.

Another big worry I have is about how one-sided this relationship is. Shallan is demanding and demanding, while not giving. This might change though.

My biggest peeve though is this:

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By the end of OB, I think Shallan was in a really tough place. Her dissociated identities were definitely a bad thing, and hopefully she'll take Adolin's incredible faith in her and let it be enough. If there's one thing she hasn't had, it's someone to just love her for who she is. And that's one thing I think everyone needs. Granted, there's probably a long tangent in this thread about how Adolin doesn't know her and whatnot. But I think he knows enough. He knows the person she is now--the real her, at least I think that's what Brandon was trying to make clear at the end of OB. He may not know about her past, but he can recognize when she's being genuinely herself. That's more important than any of her past.

Her dissociated fragments of identity are definitely a bad thing. She is suffering from a severe mental disorder and blind faith won't help that and it won't be enough. I think, there is this huge misunderstanding, that Adolin fell in love with the real Shallan, when the real Shallan is hiding behind a nice face, that she now calls Shallan, Veil and Radiant. Adolin fell in love with that face. Even worse, only a part of Shallan really reciprocates these feelings. Veil is still pining after Kaladin and doesn't accept Adolin ("He is good for you, I suppose."). Radiant is completely indifferent, as seen by how often she changes her sentiment of whether Adolin or Kaladin is a better choice. This marriage is basically the result of Shallan fracturing herself and solving her mental confusion of being attracted to both Adolin and Kaladin, by pushing the unwanted feelings for Kaladin to Veil. I think, it would have never happened so soon, if she'd been whole and able to make a conscious decision.

If Shallan, Radiant and Veil are supposed to be completely different entities, then I'm very confused, because Brandon hints, that they aren't. Both with Wit's advice and during the Battle of TC.

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Shallan, Veil, and Radiant held hands in a ring. The three flowed, faces changing, identities melding. Together, they had raised an army.

 

Edited November 27, 2017 by SLNC

[firegazer]

So, I cannot quote from my phone, but I wanted very much to make a point about a previous post very quickly which referenced the fact that a woman should be able to make the conscious choice to conform to societal expectations and still be considered feminist. I agree that this is the case! But here’s the oddity to me: in this case, it is a male author MAKING a female character make this decision. It is not a real, live woman making this decision. I am not saying that it’s impossible for a male author to do right, but that surely complicates the heck out of things, doesn’t it?

It’s a constant strangeness to me that other people can conceive of characters as being separate entities from their author, but it actually seems to be the norm. I think I might be missing some cultural circuit in my brain that normally makes that possible. In general, it’s good shorthand to assume that whenever I am discussing matters of writing, I am coming at it from the perspective of authorial choices, rather than “in-world” character choices... which I basically consider to be authorial choices anyway.

I’m not sure if that makes sense. It’s awfully late at night, and I’ve had an awful lot of tea.

[mariapapadia she/her]

42 minutes ago, firegazer said:

So, I cannot quote from my phone, but I wanted very much to make a point about a previous post very quickly which referenced the fact that a woman should be able to make the conscious choice to conform to societal expectations and still be considered feminist. I agree that this is the case! But here’s the oddity to me: in this case, it is a male author MAKING a female character make this decision. It is not a real, live woman making this decision. I am not saying that it’s impossible for a male author to do right, but that surely complicates the heck out of things, doesn’t it?

It’s a constant strangeness to me that other people can conceive of characters as being separate entities from their author, but it actually seems to be the norm. I think I might be missing some cultural circuit in my brain that normally makes that possible. In general, it’s good shorthand to assume that whenever I am discussing matters of writing, I am coming at it from the perspective of authorial choices, rather than “in-world” character choices... which I basically consider to be authorial choices anyway.

I’m not sure if that makes sense. It’s awfully late at night, and I’ve had an awful lot of tea.

I understand where you are coming from and to a certain extent I agree, that having a male author make a choice for a female author might be seen as problematic, but ultimately I am under the opinion ( and I know it's not a popular one), that not only women can talk and accurately portray women issues, not only transgender people can talk about transgender issues, not only men can talk about men and so on. Through the human capacity of feeling emphaty and make mental exercises of being in someone else's shoes and lots of research on the matter, I think other categories are able to speak about certain issues that don't concern them directly and each one of us is responsible to do our own research in order to judge if those problems were expressed in a rightful and respectful manner. I think Brandon has done a good job so far and he always does extensive research and is aware of his responsibility to shine light on these issues in a respectful way. Ultimately, for me it boils down at evaluating other people by their values, thoughts and so on, rather than gender, nationality or a singular aspect of their identities.

Edited November 27, 2017 by mariapapadia

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

Ultimately, for me it boils down at evaluating other people by their values, thoughts and so on, rather than gender, nationality or a singular aspect of their identities.

Wise words, my friend.

I fully agree with your sentiment. Who cares about gender, when the really important thing is, that we, as humans, are capable of empathy and thinking.

Edited November 27, 2017 by SLNC

[insert_anagram_here]

Can we take a moment and consider that Shallan might have decided to get married because Radiant changed her mind about Kalladin?

Shallan accepted her betrothal gladly in WOR because she lacked faith in herself making the choice since the first man she chose was an ardent and an assassin. 

She didn't decide on getting married to Adolin when she got betrothed, she decided after the Battle of Thaylen Field.

And it's not the fact that Adolin proved that "he knows her" that gave her determination. Because right after that discussion she is still seems entranced seeing Kaladin, even Pattern gets confused. And that's exactly the point where Radiant changes her mind. 

Edited November 27, 2017 by insert_anagram_here
sorry for the first post, I pressed save too fast

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Shallan accepted her betrothal gladly in WOR because she lacked faith in herself making the choice since the first man she chose was an ardent and an assassin. 

But wouldn't that imply, that she would gladly give the choice to Veil and Radiant, since she sees them as seperate from herself?

[straits]

6 hours ago, Stormlightning said:

Haha, that's totally fine, @Dreamstorm. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I haven't been following your argument, but I didn't see anything unrealistic about the character development for any of these guys. If anything struck me as unrealistic, it was how easily Kaladin let go, but even that worked for me since he really only thought about her a handful of times since the chasms.

At risk of going way off topic, I'll say that Shallan's character development (or lack thereof) was strangely touching to me. Too many times authors have fictional characters experience a "come to" moment where they learn something and grow up. They move forward with their new realization and that's admirable. To my personal chagrin, however, this is not usually the case for me. I learn something to help me overcome my faults, I do great for like a day, go the total opposite direction for like a month, then spend the next several years actually learning to make that realization a part of my regular behavior. I also revert to a much less mature version of myself when around certain people from my younger years. I would have totally reacted the way Shallan did to Jasnah, even as I hated myself for doing it.

Excellent post. This is a very good way to put it. People regress and fall, and sometimes they do not get back up in a "timely" manner, and Shallan's arc(s) are made all the more interesting and relatable through her deteriorating mental state. The road forward is not neat and it does not necessarily adhere to arbitrary timeframes and dramatic cues. And sometimes, it does not even end happily. 

I've seen a few (though much rarer in this thread) complaints that Kaladin has not been romantically fulfilled by the end of the book, and that he should be (if not now then in the sequels), for the sake of some kind of completeness. I think this expectation is mistaken as something "necessary" to the story.

5 hours ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

This criticism is completely valid. IRL, moving forward and growing up is a slow, difficult process. But as I said, the reason people are responding like this is because that was not how it worked in the series up until this point. I'm pretty sure the majority of Sanderson's books follow the whole rise-fall-rise back up dynamic. Sazed did it. Elend did it. Wax, to an extent is doing it. There are other examples, but my point is that while it's a little unrealistic, it is the norm in most fiction, including Sanderson's. That's why this is a bit surprising.

I don't disagree that the criticism of the pacing is valid. However, there is also nothing invalid about Sanderson changing his approach.

[insert_anagram_here]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

But wouldn't that imply, that she would gladly give the choice to Veil and Radiant, since she sees them as seperate from herself?

Well, at the point that she decided that she lacked faith in herself, Veil and Radiant didn't exist as separate personalities but were a part of her. So she probably believes that neither of her personalities is capable of making the right choice. That's why she decided that Veil had a bad taste in men.

She was fine when Veil was set on Kaladin and Radiant on Adolin, because that kept her from reaching a decision.

 

[Guest]

Just now, insert_anagram_here said:

She was fine when Veil was set on Kaladin and Radiant on Adolin, because that kept her from reaching a decision.

That is a point... And then she when she had to make the decision (well, she felt like she had to make it, she absolutely didn't have to), she took the safe choice that Jasnah had made for her by arranging the betrothal.

[FuzzyWordsmith]

1 minute ago, straits said:

Excellent post. This is a very good way to put it. People regress and fall, and sometimes they do not get back up in a "timely" manner, and Shallan's arc(s) are made all the more interesting and relatable through her deteriorating mental state. The road forward is not neat and it does not necessarily adhere to arbitrary timeframes and dramatic cues. And sometimes, it does not even end happily. 

I've seen a few (though much rarer in this thread) complaints that Kaladin has not been romantically fulfilled by the end of the book, and that he should be (if not now then in the sequels), for the sake of some kind of completeness. I think this expectation is mistaken as something "necessary" to the story.

I don't disagree that the criticism of the pacing is valid. However, there is also nothing invalid about Sanderson changing his approach.

So, we're walking a fine line here. At what point does a fantasy novel become too unrealistic? Conversely, how much realism is acceptable for a fantasy novel? These are not immutable, but at the end of the day, it is a balancing act. I have seen just as many criticisms of fantasy being too realistic as I have criticisms of fantasy not having enough realism. I believe it comes down to personal taste. For some people, fantasy is about escape, and should not be realistic at all. For others, fantasy is just another way of looking at reality, and should behave accordingly. There are plenty of people on the spectrum in between. The reason people feel that Kaladin should be fulfilled romantically is simply because that's how things go in fiction. In reality, people can spend their whole lives alone, but in a work of fiction, this is a relatively rare case, especially for main characters.

As to Sanderson changing his approach: He is allowed to, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, what struck people is that he doesn't typically do this, and it was a jarring shift. You know the saying about insanity being doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results? It's that sort of sentiment. If a cafe you frequent opens every single day at 9AM sharp, the day that it doesn't open till noon is going to stand out. People react to that sort of thing.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

So, we're walking a fine line here. At what point does a fantasy novel become too unrealistic? Conversely, how much realism is acceptable for a fantasy novel? These are not immutable, but at the end of the day, it is a balancing act. I have seen just as many criticisms of fantasy being too realistic as I have criticisms of fantasy not having enough realism. I believe it comes down to personal taste. For some people, fantasy is about escape, and should not be realistic at all. For others, fantasy is just another way of looking at reality, and should behave accordingly. There are plenty of people on the spectrum in between. The reason people feel that Kaladin should be fulfilled romantically is simply because that's how things go in fiction. In reality, people can spend their whole lives alone, but in a work of fiction, this is a relatively rare case, especially for main characters.

Hm... For me, personally, that is a 50/50 split. I read fantasy, because I want to escape into a different world, but when it comes to the interpersonal relationships and growth of the characters, I expect realism, since otherwise I can't really immerse me into it. Like you said... it is jarring.

Another thing, that I hate is, that when clear foreshadowing (it is, I'm not the only one who was "fooled"), regarding Kaladin and Shallan now, gets completely thrown out the window. It makes someone feel toyed by the author and results in loss of trust. Now, I've been reading a lot of Sanderson and that bit of trust loss isn't a big deal, since he also had built plenty of trust beforehand.

[straits]

Just now, FuzzyWordsmith said:

So, we're walking a fine line here. At what point does a fantasy novel become too unrealistic? Conversely, how much realism is acceptable for a fantasy novel? These are not immutable, but at the end of the day, it is a balancing act. I have seen just as many criticisms of fantasy being too realistic as I have criticisms of fantasy not having enough realism. I believe it comes down to personal taste. For some people, fantasy is about escape, and should not be realistic at all. For others, fantasy is just another way of looking at reality, and should behave accordingly. There are plenty of people on the spectrum in between. The reason people feel that Kaladin should be fulfilled romantically is simply because that's how things go in fiction. In reality, people can spend their whole lives alone, but in a work of fiction, this is a relatively rare case, especially for main characters.

 

Yes, I understand the sentiment completely. Personally, after reading a large number of fantasy novels whose characters neatly found romantic resolutions (David Eddings did this criminally), what unfolded in OB was a breath of painfully fresh air.

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As to Sanderson changing his approach: He is allowed to, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, what struck people is that he doesn't typically do this, and it was a jarring shift. You know the saying about insanity being doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results? It's that sort of sentiment. If a cafe you frequent opens every single day at 9AM sharp, the day that it doesn't open till noon is going to stand out. People react to that sort of thing.

 

Good analogy, thanks for the clarification. I am possibly in the minority as someone who is satisfied with the current situation at the end of OB. The combination of awkward decisions and emotional mismanagement hints at very interesting developments in the sequels, for me. Like suddenly hearing an electric guitar in an orchestra, it introduces a new dimension to explore. But like you said, it is a matter of taste.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, straits said:

I am possibly in the minority as someone who is satisfied with the current situation at the end of OB.

I guess, I'm somewhere in between... On one hand,

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The combination of awkward decisions and emotional mismanagement hints at very interesting developments in the sequels

This could be very true. On the other hand, this whole unresolved foreshadowing and hinting between Kaladin and Shallan makes me feel like I'm being kidded and mocked, which certainly doesn't help my trust in Sanderson... I hope, this will get interesting, but like I said, I feel a bit... toyed with. Which I don't like.

[straits]

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

This could be very true. On the other hand, this whole unresolved foreshadowing and hinting between Kaladin and Shallan makes me feel like I'm being kidded and mocked, which certainly doesn't help my trust in Sanderson... I hope, this will get interesting, but like I said, I feel a bit... toyed with. Which I don't like.

I can agree that in many conventional literary contexts, foreshadowing of internal character monologues as in Kaladin's and Shallan's case leads up to the two of them getting closer. However, I do think that in many real-life situations, a lot of such emotional angst leads exactly to the situation we've seen in the end of OB - less-than-satisfactory and possibly unhealthy relationships, emotional distancing, denial, etc.

On the matter of being toyed with... it is up to interpretation. I don't mind being "misled" by a story so much as I mind being bored by a story. However, in OB, from beginning to end, the entire vector of the Shallan-Kaladin dynamic was going downwards, so the events at its end are something I more or less expected. You could argue that this entire vector is problematic after their shared moment in the chasms in WoR, of course. But it is only one shared moment, and the subsequent developments don't strain plausibility to me.

[FuzzyWordsmith]

7 minutes ago, straits said:

Yes, I understand the sentiment completely. Personally, after reading a large number of fantasy novels whose characters neatly found romantic resolutions (David Eddings did this criminally), what unfolded in OB was a breath of painfully fresh air.

Good analogy, thanks for the clarification. I am possibly in the minority as someone who is satisfied with the current situation at the end of OB. The combination of awkward decisions and emotional mismanagement hints at very interesting developments in the sequels, for me. Like suddenly hearing an electric guitar in an orchestra, it introduces a new dimension to explore. But like you said, it is a matter of taste.

This brings up I think the best summation of opinions on this plot. There is a large subset of people, particularly on tumblr and reddit, who don't consider the decision to be awkward, or the emotions to be mismanaged. Those people think this was all intentional, and everything is fine now. What a lot of people on this thread are worried about is that they're right, that these things will go nowhere. That's the primary issue people seem to have. The issue is that we're worried it wasn't hinting to events in the sequel, but instead is meant to be taken at face value. Many people here would be happy to have the bolded issues be present in the sequels. We're more worried about what happens if they're not.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, straits said:

But it is only one shared moment, and the subsequent developments don't strain plausibility to me.

Not really straining plausibility, I agree, but rather straining the suggested closure. There is plenty of evidence, that it isn't closed. Veil is still after Kaladin. The feelings that came up in the chasms are not gone, but rather just pushed away... It really is a strange situation.

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However, I do think that in many real-life situations, a lot of such emotional angst leads exactly to the situation we've seen in the end of OB - less-than-satisfactory and possibly unhealthy relationships, emotional distancing, denial, etc.

I very much agree with that though and I will be very pleasantly surprised, if this will be fleshed out in sequels.

Edited November 27, 2017 by SLNC

[straits]

7 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

This brings up I think the best summation of opinions on this plot. There is a large subset of people, particularly on tumblr and reddit, who don't consider the decision to be awkward, or the emotions to be mismanaged. Those people think this was all intentional, and everything is fine now. What a lot of people on this thread are worried about is that they're right, that these things will go nowhere. That's the primary issue people seem to have. The issue is that we're worried it wasn't hinting to events in the sequel, but instead is meant to be taken at face value. Many people here would be happy to have the bolded issues be present in the sequels. We're more worried about what happens if they're not.

This nicely summarizes the disagreements I've had with several posters in this thread. I don't have much experience with Sanderson's other works (I follow the Stormlight novels exclusively), so the events at the end of OB parsed as something organic for me. I will be interested in what happens in the sequels, and my conclusion was that these emotional issues will be dealt with, given the promised breadth of the series - 7 more books of constant, idealized romance between Adolin and Shallan is something I can't imagine.

 

[insert_anagram_here]

15 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

This brings up I think the best summation of opinions on this plot. There is a large subset of people, particularly on tumblr and reddit, who don't consider the decision to be awkward, or the emotions to be mismanaged. Those people think this was all intentional, and everything is fine now. What a lot of people on this thread are worried about is that they're right, that these things will go nowhere. That's the primary issue people seem to have. The issue is that we're worried it wasn't hinting to events in the sequel, but instead is meant to be taken at face value. Many people here would be happy to have the bolded issues be present in the sequels. We're more worried about what happens if they're not.

Yes, I am more worried of what happens if they are not addressed, so my way of handling it is to look hard into evidence and facts and try to cross reference as to what adds up. If I can find evidence that these issues are more likely to be addressed in the future, I will be convinced that everything is okay and I do not have to worry about it. That is why I go back and over analyse bits and pieces and trying  to keep my personal feelings out of it. Facts somehow should lead to the truth, right?

I do not accept BS would go into so much trouble to write Shallan but resolve her story just like this. And he is an author that deliberately uses foreshadowing elements and comes back to them constantly.

Frankly, I think that Wit's intervention and advice is the closest to BS talking in person through the books. So it all comes down to the question "Did Shallan understand his advice and are her choices exactly what he advised her to do? Or was he misunderstood, and her choices will eventually be revealed as tragically wrong?"

Edited November 27, 2017 by insert_anagram_here

[FuzzyWordsmith]

2 minutes ago, straits said:

This nicely summarizes the disagreements I've had with several posters in this thread. I don't have much experience with Sanderson's other works (I follow the Stormlight novels exclusively), so the events at the end of OB parsed as something organic for me. I will be interested in what happens in the sequels, and my conclusion was that these emotional issues will be dealt with, given the promised breadth of the series - 7 more books of constant, idealized romance between Adolin and Shallan is something I can't imagine.

 

I just understood something in that case. The reason so many people consider this to not be organic is because it is different from Sanderson's other works. A lot of people here have read almost all, if not all, of his work. As a result, we see patterns that persist over a larger sample size. This may be the reason for our differences on the issues. I respect your opinion, and I think your reasoning is valid. However, there are people here who are used to thinking of the entire cosmere as his series, as opposed to just the Stormlight Archive. As a result, people are using reasoning related to his other series with SA, under the reasoning that it's all the same sequence at the end of the day.

[straits]

4 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I just understood something in that case. The reason so many people consider this to not be organic is because it is different from Sanderson's other works. A lot of people here have read almost all, if not all, of his work. As a result, we see patterns that persist over a larger sample size. This may be the reason for our differences on the issues. I respect your opinion, and I think your reasoning is valid. However, there are people here who are used to thinking of the entire cosmere as his series, as opposed to just the Stormlight Archive. As a result, people are using reasoning related to his other series with SA, under the reasoning that it's all the same sequence at the end of the day.

That makes sense. I've read of the parallels some people mentioned about there being some kind of love triangle in Mistborn as well, but from what I've understood, the characters in question are very different personalities. I'll need to re-read OB, but from what I recall, Shallan's mental state by the end of it is still deliberately emphasized as problematic by the author. I would be surprised that nothing comes of it in the sequel, but I did not expect this book to be self-contained in the sense that it has both the characterization of the problem (mental issues, their exacerbation) and the solution to the problem (these mental issues being fully resolved). 

Maybe these concerns could be summarized and presented to Sanderson. He seems like the opposite of certain other fantasy writers who refuse to disclose their inner workings. 

[Guest]

Just now, straits said:

That makes sense. I've read of the parallels some people mentioned about there being some kind of love triangle in Mistborn as well, but from what I've understood, the characters in question are very different personalities.

There was, but you're right. The characters in question are very different from K, S and A.

The main thing is, that Sanderson very often used this arranged marriage thing, which then always miraculously works out... Which I guess is our main worry, since it would not only diminish Shallan's character that has been built as strong and independent, but also reaffirm an author-related trope, which is always bad, because it reinforces predictability.