[OB] Origin of Ancient Surgebinders (Theory)

[phattemer]

Ok, so we’ve heard the big secret that caused the Recreance: Humans were the original Voidbringers, the invaders in the first desolation, and destroyed their  own world with Surgebinding. All good, right? Wrong. There is so much unclear here. Here’s a few things we know:

1. Humans and parsh had their own planets, with the shard of Passion(Odium) on the parsh and that of Honor on the human. We don’t know where Cultivation was, but probably with Odium.

2. Humans destroyed their planet with surgebinding and some of them made it to the parsh planet, where the books are set. Shinovar was set aside for them but they invaded everywhere else and somehow created the parshmen. 

3. The Heralds fight against the Voidbringers as part of the Oathpact, by which they were transported to Braize to fight, lose, and be tortured until one of them gave in and willingly left, starting a Desolation which would last until the enemy was defeated.

4. Spren mimicked the Heralds and created the Nahel bond, granting men Surgebinding. 

5. The Heralds eventually all accepted and led their respective orders of Knight Radiant.

So the main problem here is, in what order did the following things happen?

1. First surgebinders

2. 9 famous people and Taln become Heralds and form the Oathpact. 

3. Humanity destroys their world

4. The First Desolation 

5. Spren imitate the Heralds and form Nahel bonds. 

The Heralds were founded to fight in desolations, the first of which was ultimately caused by human surgebinders, who were created by spren inspired by Heralds. 

It’s clear something doesn’t add up here, and I believe I know what it is. 

I believe the “Surgebinders” who destroyed their world were not actually manipulating the ten fundamental forces found on Roshar. Rather, it was being used as the only term a Rosharan would understand for someone who uses Investiture. (cf. Azure’s sword, which they call a Shardblade)

Who do we know may be able to travel through space, can use Investiture, and is highly dangerous?

Maybe you’ve guessed where I’m going with this. Maybe not. 

I think the third Mistborn trilogy, which we know is a space opera, will have as a key ploy point the imminent destabilization and destruction of Scadrial, and the last chapter will include a group, with their technology lost, landing along people with skin of red and black and being given a land surrounded by mountains.

For some reason or another, Allomancy didn’t work on Roshar. Maybe they lost the connection to Preservation by being too far away, a lá Raoden’s AonDor being less powerful farther from Elantris. Or maybe it just got so diluted by the time of the invasion that no one could do it anymore. 

The Heralds, then, were probably leaders of the invasion who then formed the Oathpact during the Second Desolation to protect their new lands. 

This explains the conundrum of the ancient Surgebinders and could mean that the Knights Radiant do not need to disband- because really, is that going to happen? 

More importantly, it offers an explanation for why Szeth and Sazed look so alike- they’re related. 

[Dlyol]

Does the timing for this work? I thought we had a WOB that the SA happens around the middle of the Cosmere sequence, before the final Mistborn era. Especially as one of the letters in Oathbringer is fairly clearly from Harmony

[Seonid he/him]

I'm not qualified to comment on most of the theory here, but we do have positive evidence that Allomancy does work on Roshar. Hoid uses it during one of Shallan's flashbacks in WoR

[Mulk he/him]

It's probably more accurate to call what humans did to their original planet Voidbinding instead of Surgebinding, as they followed Odium and drew on his powers, but the people of Roshar apparently don't have that word in their vocabulary so they call it what it looks like and it looks an awful lot like Surgebinding.

Spren imitating the bond is the last point on your list.  All of the rest of it was in place prior to the spren figuring out how to replicate what Honor had done.

[phattemer]

Do we know they followed Odium? I thought the Eila Stele said they brought “their new god, without emotion”. I assumed that referred to Honor, since Odium would call himself Passion. 

The timeline doesn’t work, but anything is possible with time travel!

Good point, @Seonid. It would have to be the dilution then. 

[Leyrann]

This theory kinda gets taken down by Stormlight Archive taking place (almost) concurrently with Mistborn Era 2.

[Dlyol]

@Leyrann Yeah that's the WOB I was thinking of

[IndigoAjah he/him]

I think maybe Cultivation was on Roshar, with Parshendi and Spren. 

 

 

i agree that it seems Honor came with the humans, as "no emotion" doesn't sound like it can be Odium to me, unless we've missed something in the definition or the Parshendi were wrong. 

 

I think they came from Ashyn, which we know is post cataclysmic. 

 

The had an original war. 

 

Then Odium swooped in and once again took advantage of competing Shards, and corrupted some humans and Parshendi.

 

but almost any combination of peoples and Shards seems possible 

[Steeldancer he/him]

I am confused about the arrival of the shards. I thought humans were pre shards? But after Listeners? And Odium came AFTER Honor+Cultivation. 

[phattemer]

Huh, sounds like there’s more we don’t know than I thought. For some reason I thought it was clear the parsh’s god was Odium, or Passion as I think I’ll start calling him, and he was the original shard on Roshar. 

They probably did actually come from Ashyn; the Mistborn theory is pretty much a joke. 

[Pagerunner he/him]

Syl, speaking to Kaladin at the end:

Quote

She nodded. "Odium is the void, Kaladin. He draws in emotion, and doesn't let it go. You ... you brought him with you. I wasn't alive then, but I know this truth. He was your first god, before you turned to Honor."

It looks to me like there are two wars going on here.

Humans vs Dawnsinger

• Humanity, on Ashyn, gains the power of Surges, through Odium. They use the Dawnshards to destroy that world.
• Humanity flees to Roshar, where Honor and Cultivation are. They take over the planet like a bunch of jerks.
• The Dawnsingers make a deal with Odium, to achieve immortality through resurrection to reclaim their world.
• The Heralds make a deal with Honor, forming the Oathpact.
• The spren side with humanity, forming the Radiants in imitation of Honor.
• Nine Heralds abandon the Oathpact, although it is still in effect.
• The Radiants, learning the truth of their homeworld, forswear their Oaths.

That's what I think comes across pretty clearly from the text. But, there's another war behind the scenes, one which I don't quite understand. Here are some of the pieces, which don't fit together quite as well:

Honor/Cultivation vs Odium

• Odium is trapped on Braize, and he wants to escape and kill other Shards.
• Honor and Cultivation are on Roshar, but... why? If the humans brought Odium with them, then those two Shards did not create their own copy of humanity, and the Dawnsingers predate the Shattering.
• Odium is worshipped first by humanity, later by Dawnsingers. He appears to help whoever is invading Roshar.
• How and when did Odium Splinter Honor? Honor survived the Recreance; he has memories of it, and he prepared Stormfather as his successor at some point after the Recreance (since Dalinar is the first he's bonded with "in this form.")

All I can piece together of this second war is that Odium wants to destroy the planet, and will help whoever is more likely to do it. It's consistent with what Honor showed in the final vision, of the planet dropping away and being destroyed. But why? Is the planet what's keeping Odium locked away?

[Leyrann]

3 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Is the planet what's keeping Odium locked away?

What of that "Odium is Invested in stone" theory? I don't know it well (don't think I've actually seen more of it than the title), but could it have anything to do with it?

[SpeakoftheDeval]

On 15/11/2017 at 4:59 PM, IndigoAjah said:

as "no emotion" doesn't sound like it can be Odium to me, unless we've missed something

I saw it as no one could have emotion with Odium around because he was the Void who sucks in all emotion like he did for Moash and tried to get Dalinar to do

[ScavellTane]

On 11/16/2017 at 2:07 AM, Pagerunner said:

All I can piece together of this second war is that Odium wants to destroy the planet, and will help whoever is more likely to do it. It's consistent with what Honor showed in the final vision, of the planet dropping away and being destroyed. But why? Is the planet what's keeping Odium locked away?

It's probably his nuclear option to escape the Rosharan system. Also, if he destroys the planet then Cultivation won't be able to hide in it. 

[ScavellTane]

On 11/16/2017 at 2:11 AM, Leyrann said:

What of that "Odium is Invested in stone" theory? I don't know it well (don't think I've actually seen more of it than the title), but could it have anything to do with it?

The invested stone is probably the spren of Roshar itself. I believe there's a line about the wind, the stone and the spren. It's most likely related to the three Bondsmith sprens.

[Jaconis]

On 11/15/2017 at 1:07 PM, Pagerunner said:

Syl, speaking to Kaladin at the end:

It looks to me like there are two wars going on here.

Humans vs Dawnsinger

• Humanity, on Ashyn, gains the power of Surges, through Odium. They use the Dawnshards to destroy that world.
• Humanity flees to Roshar, where Honor and Cultivation are. They take over the planet like a bunch of jerks.
• The Dawnsingers make a deal with Odium, to achieve immortality through resurrection to reclaim their world.
• The Heralds make a deal with Honor, forming the Oathpact.
• The spren side with humanity, forming the Radiants in imitation of Honor.
• Nine Heralds abandon the Oathpact, although it is still in effect.
• The Radiants, learning the truth of their homeworld, forswear their Oaths.

That's what I think comes across pretty clearly from the text. But, there's another war behind the scenes, one which I don't quite understand. Here are some of the pieces, which don't fit together quite as well:

Honor/Cultivation vs Odium

• Odium is trapped on Braize, and he wants to escape and kill other Shards.
• Honor and Cultivation are on Roshar, but... why? If the humans brought Odium with them, then those two Shards did not create their own copy of humanity, and the Dawnsingers predate the Shattering.
• Odium is worshipped first by humanity, later by Dawnsingers. He appears to help whoever is invading Roshar.
• How and when did Odium Splinter Honor? Honor survived the Recreance; he has memories of it, and he prepared Stormfather as his successor at some point after the Recreance (since Dalinar is the first he's bonded with "in this form.")

All I can piece together of this second war is that Odium wants to destroy the planet, and will help whoever is more likely to do it. It's consistent with what Honor showed in the final vision, of the planet dropping away and being destroyed. But why? Is the planet what's keeping Odium locked away?

This was how I interpreted the situation as well. I think Odium helps whomever has the most passion for him to “take” (or whatever he does). When humans first came to Roshar, it was them: conquest, war, the Thrill, everything Odium tried to take from Dalinar. 

Then, he helped the singers, as their passion, anger at the humans, far exceeded that of the humans. This is why I believe Rayse is now known as Odium, as the primary emotion he feeds on is anger. Not sure I understand his end goal, because there are several things I don’t understand about him in general. 

On Odium the Shard. Do any other shards feed on anything in this way? Ruin didn’t “feed” on destruction. I don’t understand what’s happening here. Why and how is he a void where passion goes? Does he gain power from this? 

What we saw of him in OB is nothing like what I was expecting from the hints we got in the epigraphs of WoK and WoR. I was expecting him to be more...unhinged? Ati was far more mentally unstable, and Rayse is supposed to be worse if anything. He seems completely in control of himself, where the letter writer from WoR says he suspects he is more a force than an individual. 

I apologize if this derails the thread, and I’ll start a new one if necessary.