[OB] On the Potential for a Fourth Bondsmith Spren

[WeiryWriter]

So in Oathbringer we learn quite a lot about the Unmade, particularly about Sja-anat. We get confirmation that she can “corrupt” (or as she calls it “Enlighten”) spren by injecting Odious Investiture into them. We also learn that she doesn’t like being on Odium’s team and wants to join Team Knights Radiant.

We also see that she is growing more skillful in Enlightening spren. As she mentions in Chapter 97 in reference to the Oathgate spren:

Quote

...we’ve never managed to Enlighten such powerful spren before.

Compare this to the Chapter 97 epigraph:

Quote

Of the Unmade, Sja-anat was most feared by the Radiants. They spoke extensively of her ability to corrupt spren, though only “lesser” spren—whatever that means.

—From Hessi’s Mythica, page 89

There is also the matter of Glys, who is likely the “son” that Sja-anat mentions to Shallan before they get sent to the Cognitive Realm. He seems to be a mistspren that has been “corrupted” with Odious Investiture, but yet he still seems to be able to form a Nahel bond and make Renarin a Knight Radiant.

What if Sja-anat ends up doing the same thing to herself, only in reverse? Perhaps with the aid of Cultivation and Dalinar (as the person in control of Honor’s remaining power) she will be able to “corrupt” herself with some of Honor’s and Cultivation’s Investiture, freeing herself from the control of Odium and potentially granting her the ability to be a fourth Bondsmith spren?

[ROSHtaFARian2.0]

I like it. It makes a certain kind of symmetry, especially when you consider that the Shards are essentially divine intent devoid of context. Odium is Hatred, but as part of a greater whole, his Intent might in context be considered Hatred for things that are evil. After all, there's nothing inherently wrong in hating things like oppression or murder. It's when you remove Odium from any other factors that give hatred context and just cast him adrift with a mind married to the idea of hatred and no direction to how and where it's applied....that's when you get Odium the villain.

So when you give a piece of yourself a mind and will of its own, the freedom to make its own choices, you can no longer guarantee that new intent will ultimately be in accord with yours. It might at first, is likely to at first, especially if you think of these things in terms of parents and children, with the latter more predisposed to follow in their parent's footsteps (especially if they're a fearsome, authoritarian parent who brooks no disobedience) - but ultimately, it is as free to choose its own way as Odium was free to pursue his Intent of Hatred indiscriminately.

 

[WeiryWriter]

16 hours ago, ROSHtaFARian2.0 said:

I like it. It makes a certain kind of symmetry, especially when you consider that the Shards are essentially divine intent devoid of context. Odium is Hatred, but as part of a greater whole, his Intent might in context be considered Hatred for things that are evil. After all, there's nothing inherently wrong in hating things like oppression or murder. It's when you remove Odium from any other factors that give hatred context and just cast him adrift with a mind married to the idea of hatred and no direction to how and where it's applied....that's when you get Odium the villain.

So when you give a piece of yourself a mind and will of its own, the freedom to make its own choices, you can no longer guarantee that new intent will ultimately be in accord with yours. It might at first, is likely to at first, especially if you think of these things in terms of parents and children, with the latter more predisposed to follow in their parent's footsteps (especially if they're a fearsome, authoritarian parent who brooks no disobedience) - but ultimately, it is as free to choose its own way as Odium was free to pursue his Intent of Hatred indiscriminately.

See I'm actually inclined to believe Odium when he says he is the Shard of passion and emotion (or rather I think that if someone else where to hold it it could be those things) but that Rayse's view of it is why it is so focused on hatred. That would also mean that his Splinters wouldn't have to be constrained by his view of the Shard. Like it could be argued that Nergaoul and Ashertmarn aren't particularly hateful, they are just passions taken to a detrimental extreme. The fact that Sja-anat is sapient further compounds that as she can choose how to act, exactly as you describe.

[Leyrann]

5 minutes ago, WeiryWriter said:

See I'm actually inclined to believe Odium when he says he is the Shard of passion and emotion (or rather I think that if someone else where to hold it it could be those things) but that Rayse's view of it is why it is so focused on hatred. That would also mean that his Splinters wouldn't have to be constrained by his view of the Shard. Like it could be argued that Nergaoul and Ashertmarn aren't particularly hateful, they are just passions taken to a detrimental extreme. The fact that Sja-anat is sapient further compounds that as she can choose how to act, exactly as you describe.

Help me out. Is one of those two what we call the Thrill?

[WeiryWriter]

1 minute ago, Leyrann said:

Help me out. Is one of those two what we call the Thrill?

Nergaoul causes the Thrill. Ashertmarn was in Kholinar causing the debauchery.

[Pagerunner]

What do we think the third Bondsmith Spren is, before we go for a fourth? It think I'm giving up on my idea that it was an Adonalsium spren; the prologue now seems obviously referring to Ba-Ado-Mishram as the "Ancient Spren." The way the Radiants seem to refer to Urithiru as "Sibling" in their gemstone recordings make me think the city itself is the third spren.

I'm a little concerned for Sja-anat, now that Odium has the diagram. "One is almost certainly a traitor to the others." From the 2nd Desk Drawer, whose other quotations are talking about the Unmade.

[taxilian]

Also interesting is this quote from the prologue:

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“Our enslaved parshmen were once like you. Then we somehow robbed them of their ability to undergo the transformation. We did it by capturing a spren. An ancient, crucial spren.” He looked at her, green eyes alight. “I’ve seen how that can be reversed. A new storm that will bring the Heralds out of hiding. A new war.”

Excerpt From: Brandon Sanderson. “Stormlight 3: Oathbringer.”

 

This is a bit far fetched, but it did make me wonder if the third bondsmith spren could be somehow related to Odium; we know that spren can decide their morality for themselves, after all.  I'm mostly leaning away from that idea, but *something* strange happened there.

[WeiryWriter]

2 minutes ago, taxilian said:

Also interesting is this quote from the prologue:

This is a bit far fetched, but it did make me wonder if the third bondsmith spren could be somehow related to Odium; we know that spren can decide their morality for themselves, after all.  I'm mostly leaning away from that idea, but *something* strange happened there.

I'm reasonably sure that the spren Gavilar is referring to there is actually Ba-Ado-Mishram, at least this sequence form the epigraphs heavily implies it:

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Something must be done about the remnants of Odium’s forces. The parsh, as they are now called, continue their war with zeal, even without their masters from Damnation.

—From drawer 30-20, first emerald77

 

A coalition has been formed among scholar Radiants. Our goal is to deny the enemy their supply of Voidlight; this will prevent their continuing transformations, and give us an edge in combat.

—From drawer 30-20, second emerald78

 

Our revelation is fueled by the theory that the Unmade can perhaps be captured like ordinary spren. It would take a special prison. And a Bondsmith.

—From drawer 30-20, third emerald79

 

Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her.

—From drawer 30-20, fourth emerald80

 

We are uncertain the effect this will have on the parsh. At the very least, it should deny them forms of power. Naze-daughter-Kuzodo warns of unintended side effects.

—From drawer 30-20, fifth emerald81

 

Surely this will bring—at long last—the end to war that the Heralds promised us.

—From drawer 30-20, final emerald82

 

[Salkara]

3 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

What do we think the third Bondsmith Spren is, before we go for a fourth? It think I'm giving up on my idea that it was an Adonalsium spren; the prologue now seems obviously referring to Ba-Ado-Mishram as the "Ancient Spren." The way the Radiants seem to refer to Urithiru as "Sibling" in their gemstone recordings make me think the city itself is the third spren.

 

Based upon the Stormfather using a plural pronoun ("they") and said it is slumbering, I think it may have something to do with the Sleepless.

[WeiryWriter]

12 minutes ago, Salkara said:

Based upon the Stormfather using a plural pronoun ("they") and said it is slumbering, I think it may have something to do with the Sleepless.

Brandon could just be using singular they there though.

[Mondaysjelly]

7 hours ago, WeiryWriter said:

See I'm actually inclined to believe Odium when he says he is the Shard of passion and emotion (or rather I think that if someone else where to hold it it could be those things) but that Rayse's view of it is why it is so focused on hatred. That would also mean that his Splinters wouldn't have to be constrained by his view of the Shard. Like it could be argued that Nergaoul and Ashertmarn aren't particularly hateful, they are just passions taken to a detrimental extreme. The fact that Sja-anat is sapient further compounds that as she can choose how to act, exactly as you describe.

I'm still suspicious of Sja-anat. I don't think she's (it?) voluntarily wanting to join team KR. I think everything that has happened is a ploy, it will be one of the double-crosses we see in SLA IV. If they manage to find her/it that is.

[Ari]

21 hours ago, WeiryWriter said:

See I'm actually inclined to believe Odium when he says he is the Shard of passion and emotion (or rather I think that if someone else where to hold it it could be those things) but that Rayse's view of it is why it is so focused on hatred. That would also mean that his Splinters wouldn't have to be constrained by his view of the Shard. Like it could be argued that Nergaoul and Ashertmarn aren't particularly hateful, they are just passions taken to a detrimental extreme. The fact that Sja-anat is sapient further compounds that as she can choose how to act, exactly as you describe.

It's possible that this is also just another aspect of Odium, like the capacity for change is an aspect of Ruin and the drawback of stagnation is an aspect of Preservation- Odium is his "downside," if you will, but passion is his upside.

I do like the idea of the Sibling being the spren of Urithiru, though. That's a good explanation for why three bondsmiths when they can't possibly touch Odium for any of their powers.

[lookingglass]

9 hours ago, Ari said:

I do like the idea of the Sibling being the spren of Urithiru, though. That's a good explanation for why three bondsmiths when they can't possibly touch Odium for any of their powers.

I was thinking that the Sibling was the spren of stone and that he/she had made Urithiru. The Shin believe stone is sacred and in Horneaters' mythology introduces the gods of Trees (Cultivation), Waters (Honor - because of storms maybe?) and Mountains so we know stones are important in Roshar.

The Sibling slumbering could also explain why Urithiru isn't working properly. If they're tied maybe the Sibling needs to awaken for the tower to work?

[MoS03]

Hmmm. I don't think that we'll get an Unmade as a Bondsmith-Spren, and I think that, because so far, Voidspren take control while Spren give control.  I argue that Glys is different, and in fact a corrupted High Spren, not a Voidspren, thus why Renarin is given a fair amount of control over his actions, minus the fits. And Glys suffers through those also.

[FirstSelector]

I like this idea a lot!  I will want to hear Sja-anat's reasoning for abandoning Odium first, but she has already established some trust by not killing Kaladin et al or sending Odium's forces to them.  That and Renarin seems to be doing alright, which suggests that her desire to find a "home" (i.e. Knights) for her spren is genuine.

On 11/15/2017 at 10:54 AM, Pagerunner said:

I'm a little concerned for Sja-anat, now that Odium has the diagram. "One is almost certainly a traitor to the others." From the 2nd Desk Drawer, whose other quotations are talking about the Unmade.

This is a great point - for the longest time, I thought that the quote referred to a Herald.

[WhiteLeeopard]

On 15/11/2017 at 7:54 PM, Pagerunner said:

I'm a little concerned for Sja-anat, now that Odium has the diagram. "One is almost certainly a traitor to the others." From the 2nd Desk Drawer, whose other quotations are talking about the Unmade.

That may end up been a race between Shallan and the Diagram to pull out their thread. While Sja-anat should be approached with caution maybe some careful questioning in her direction may yield fruits. As we've seen the conflict won't be neatly split. So far sides are:

Odium                                                                                                                                                         Most Honor pieces

Most parsh                                                                                                                                                 Lets say a third of humanity

All Fused                                                                                                                                                    About two thirds of the KR

Diagram                                                                                                                                                      Nightblood  

Sons of Honor most likely                                                                                  Cultivation about here

Iriali, Rira, and some humans from all countries

All Unmade

Skybreakers, and likely some Dustbringers

 

Looking at this there really needs to be some flow from Odium side to Honor side, partly to get a bit more representation, and partly to get more even. 

Edited November 17, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard