Could Shinovar be run by stonewards?

[Fifth of Daybreak]

21 minutes ago, Yata said:

Now that I think about.

It's possibile someone can't fake an Oathbreaking at all without the Illumination Surge (Truthwatchers maybe) because also if they leave the Blade and Plate (but the Blade is relevant here) they would still have Radiant's eyes...It would took hours for their eyes to return normal.

This is huge, it might be the breaking point. Storming nice work. Could the eyedrops be a possibility here? 

 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Toaster Retribution]

@CaptainRyan Thanks! You'll get a toast!

[CaptainRyan]

2 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@CaptainRyan Thanks! You'll get a toast!

Dream come true! 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

41 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

I hear you and I agree there is a chance that the Stonewards were the sneaky hidden Order but I, personally, sincerely doubt it. Hats off to you though if it turns out you were right!  

I'm more on the doubting side as well. I try to help qualify my confidence in my thesis in the title, so anything you see of mine posed as a question you can safely assume I'm almost trying to get conclusive proof to shoot it down rather than to put a theory out there, that way I can then turn my attention toward other things. When I'm more certain the wording in the title will be more forceful, at the very least a statement. (Sometimes that can come back to bite me haha.)

[CaptainRyan]

Just now, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I'm more on the doubting side as well. I try to help qualify my confidence in my thesis in the title, so anything you see of mine posed as a question you can safely assume I'm almost trying to get conclusive proof to shoot it down rather than to put a theory out there, that way I can then turn my attention toward other things. When I'm more certain the wording in the title will be more forceful, at the very least a statement. (Sometimes that can come back to bite me haha.)

Totally understandable. The hallmark of a good theorist is being open to criticism and new ideas. I think this post makes good use of the information we have access to but, for me, there is enough against it to make me think there is another answer.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

18 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

The hallmark of a good theorist is being open to criticism and new ideas.

This exactly. Something my older brother and I share as a core ideology is that an idea cannot be considered good until it has been tempered in the fires of debate. 

 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Yata]

42 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

This is huge, it might be the breaking point. Storming nice work. Could the eyedrops be a possibility here? 

 

Hard to say for sure, but I think it would not.

Assuming the eyedrops was already a thing back then, we have two possible scenarios:

- The Eyedrops don't affect the Radiant's eyes-> well already self explainatory

- The Eyedrops affect the Radiant's eyes-> it's still troublesome as the Radiants will have dark eyes also before the fakery when they have to have Radiant's eyes...it's almost impossible to make no Windrunner notice.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

10 minutes ago, Yata said:

Hard to say for sure, but I think it would not.

Assuming the eyedrops was already a thing back then, we have two possible scenarios:

- The Eyedrops don't affect the Radiant's eyes-> well already self explainatory

- The Eyedrops affect the Radiant's eyes-> it's still troublesome as the Radiants will have dark eyes also before the fakery when they have to have Radiant's eyes...it's almost impossible to make no Windrunner notice.

Looking back, this actually doesn't seem to be a problem. Dalinar looks at one of the Windrunners after they break the Oaths. 

Quote

Dalinar caught up to the Radiants—they weren’t walking very quickly—and grabbed one by the arm. The man turned; his skin was tan and his hair dark, like an Alethi. His eyes were of the palest blue. Unnaturally so, in fact—the irises were nearly white.

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 732). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

At this point though, I want to add that one of the reasons I'm most skeptical about this theory is because I personally think that the subterfuge one of the orders took is referring to the cleansing of documents of Urithuru and the Knights Radiant by the Church. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[The One Who Connects]

On 11/7/2017 at 6:28 PM, Fifth of Daybreak said:

and would prefer that be stated up front, for both of our benefit.

Yea, I should've been a little more clear. The primary reason was the aforementioned "only 3 people who don't consider the vision as solid proof." I am not one of those three people, and having been that way for a year or more starts to color your perceptions.

On 11/7/2017 at 6:28 PM, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Most importantly, it doesn't have to be an inherent ability but just a side effect of perception. If the Knights are able to hold a fixed perception in their mind of what they want they Blade to do, a similar mechanic to a shardbearer holding concentration to throw a Blade, they Spren should be able to comply.

I'll grant you that that being a side effect of perception is reasonable, but then we can debate the likelihood of a KR discovering that they can do that until the end of time. I don't see it as that likely for a KR to just randomly be thinking "but what if my Shardblade was more/less bright?"

On 11/7/2017 at 6:28 PM, Fifth of Daybreak said:

This is a true statement, but we weren't brought into a description of the other orders mid sentence when describing numbers leaving it intentionally vague as it was in the Dalinar chapters.

Of entertaining note, it is entirely possible that the entire Stoneward Order was there and only most of the Windrunners were there. The scout said "a large number of Windrunners," but he specifically said "the Order of the Stonewards." A quantifying descriptor or lack thereof goes both ways.

On 11/7/2017 at 6:28 PM, Fifth of Daybreak said:

we know the Radiants can summon their helmets and dismiss them. From there, it's not an unreasonable assumption that they could do that with all their plate as well, and engage in the great subterfuge that way.

I'll use what I said about alternating the glow here too: "I don't think they'd be able to do so without actually holding the Blade." The Blade could despawn as a consequence of distance, but I don't believe that Plate would do the same. It doesn't seem to be bound by the same rules.

21 hours ago, Calderis said:

In order for the plate to have dropped to the ground, I believe it had to have been broken. 

This is an intriguing prospect. It's still semi-relevant to the discussion at hand, so I'd like to hear your reasoning for this.

5 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I'm most skeptical about this theory is because I personally think that the subterfuge one of the orders took is referring to the cleansing of documents of Urithuru and the Knights Radiant by the Church. 

Explain what you mean by this. This is not the first time someone has said something in this vein either, and if this means what I think it means, I'm gonna end up dropping another three topics on you like I did the other day.

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

This is an intriguing prospect. It's still semi-relevant to the discussion at hand, so I'd like to hear your reasoning for this.

Beyond gut feeling there's no evidence. It's just that there's no need to ever don or doff their armor. It simply is or isn't, if the helm is an example. 

I don't see them ever "taking it off." it just disappears. I think it's something that's projected from their bodies, like a solidified (and idealized) aura of protection. To remove it is to disconnect from it. 

I could be completely wrong as I have no evidence to support it. Until we see" live" plate, I don't think we'll get any. 

Edited November 9, 2017 by Calderis

[The One Who Connects]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I don't see them ever "taking it off." it just disappears. I think it's something that's projected from their bodies, like a solidified (and idealized) aura of protection. To remove it is to disconnect from it. 

I feel like this means that the Shardplate would despawn if you knocked a KR unconscious, which is a funny mental image. Am I reaching, or would that actually be valid under your interpretation?

[Calderis]

Just now, The One Who Connects said:

I feel like this means that the Shardplate would despawn if you knocked a KR unconscious, which is a funny mental image. Am I reaching, or would that actually be valid under your interpretation?

Hadn't actually considered that far. I guess it depends on if it's an active or passive effect. 

If it's something that they fire and forget, I think that it would remain until they choose for it to go. 

If they have to actively keep it up, then it would disappear. 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

38 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

this means what I think it means, I'm gonna end up dropping another three topics on you like I did the other day.

Let's just skip to this part. I haven't done any serious research into this.

[The One Who Connects]

30 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Let's just skip to this part. I haven't done any serious research into this.

So, the cleansing of documents relating to the KR by the Church happened during the Hierocracy. The Hierocracy was orchestrated by priests claiming to have been seeing visions. We have a KR order that is assumed to be able to "see" things. Namely, the Truthwatchers, who also have illumination to possibly Lightweave away from the Recreance.

The assumptions were there to be made, but something tells me you aren't doing the same thing.

Edited November 9, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[Fifth of Daybreak]

14 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

The assumptions were there to be made, but something tells me you aren't doing the same thing

I don't have the time to give you the proper attention this deserves at the moment, but the barebones would be that the Skybreakers, after Nale had resurrected them, orchestrated the cleansing or documents in order to make it easier to hide/prevent Nahel bonds. It's a thought I've had latest reread and haven't had time to look into yet.

[The One Who Connects]

Just now, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I don't have the time to give you the proper attention this deserves at the moment, but the barebones would be that the Skybreakers, after Nale had resurrected them, orchestrated the cleansing or documents in order to make it easier to hide/prevent Nahel bonds. It's a thought I've had latest reread and haven't had time to look into yet.

Not what I was expecting, nor is it something I necessarily agree with, but I'm curious where this path leads. Look into this and expand your theory.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

2 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Not what I was expecting, nor is it something I necessarily agree with, but I'm curious where this path leads. Look into this and expand your theory.

I should get some time between calls at work tomorrow, and I'll give you a call out when I refine my thoughts.