Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 It's crazy theory time. I've had a lot of weird thoughts jumping around my head about the Shin that have been put against the whetstone thanks to @The One Who Connects and @Calderis . I want to put this out there as refined as I can make it and see what will stick to the wall and what gets winnowed away. So a few pieces of hard fact. 1: They have the Honorblades and technical knowledge that, so far, we don't think anyone could get just by possessing them. 2: They revere the spren of stones. 3: Heralds are their gods. 4: Szeth's claim that made him Truthless was related to the Voidbringers returning and seeing Kaladin surgebind made him belive that he was correct and should not be Truthless. 5: Szeth is confident that the Shin Stone Shamans would be able to retrieve the Honorblade easily. Now in Dalinar's flashback, we see Stonewards and Windrunners forswearing their oaths. But I want to examine it through the lens of the Words of Radiance Epigraphs. This is where I expect some immediate blowback if some of these have been solved and I'm unaware. Quote “Now, as each order was thus matched to the nature and temperament of the Herald it named patron, there was none more archetypal of this than the Stonewards, who followed after Talenelat'Elin, Stonesinew, Herald of War: they thought it a point of virtue to exemplify resolve, strength, and dependability. Alas, they took less care for imprudent practice of their stubbornness, even in the face of proven error. ” —Chapter 13, page 1[9] “Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants' adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest. ” —Chapter 38, page 6[20] “That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named. ” —Chapter 38, page 6[21] “This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine. ” —Chapter 38, page 20[22] So, laying out my interpretation for this, it seems as though Feverstone keep would be what's being described in Chapter 38. This would then also imply that the Stonewards were "primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths." Now the author of Words of Radiance probably didn't have the advantage of getting front row seats to visions from the Almighty, but if we can safely assume that this is talking about Feverstone Keep and the Stonewards and Windrunners, this directly contradicts the description of the Stonewards from Chapter 13: "they thought it a point of virtue to exemplify resolve, strength, and dependability." But what if the last portion we have in the book chronologically is actually describing that somehow the Stonewards were able to fake forswearing their oaths, and instead survived as an order, possibly up to this day? We know Radiants can summon their helmets, alter the shape and size of their Blades. What if they just left their spren there until they were far enough away until they could puff away in the confusion to be resummoned later when they were safely away from the others? They then could seek out the Honorblades, and influence the culture of the civilization there. It's theoretically possible that their spren could communicate with the spren on the other side to seek out the potential stonewards and keep the Stone Shamans alive through the years, protecting the Honorblades and watching for the Voidbringers. Am I crazy? 3
Calderis he/him Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 The blades faded. The Spren died. I'm sorry fifth, I just can't get on board this one. I understand why you feel this way about the Stonewards. Their resolve as one of their attributes. The only oath of theirs we know being "I will stand when others fall." I just can't see that vision being faked. I also feel that, much like the Windrunners, the Stonewards aren't going to lend themselves to subterfuge, though that is admittedly an idea based on feeling. You're not crazy. I just can't believe this.
Yata he/him Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 (edited) It's unlikely. First of all the Stoneward is one of the two Orders we know at 100% took part of the Recreance. The fake isn't real a possibility as the Spren would be unable to remain there without his knight. We know also there was no difference between the Windrunner and Stoneward's cases...so unless also the Windrunner faked this, it's almost impossible the Stoneward tricked everyone. There are also blade who are accounted to be Stoneward's Blade in the modern times. Secondly, the Shin have not "knowlege they could not have" because honestly after 5000 years of possession they could figure out a lot of stuff, much more they possess the Honorblade while the RK are still active therefore they could gather a lot of Information of surgebinding by them alone. Shin's gods are not the Heralds, Nale's line implies that Szeth's gods are the heralds instead of the rest of the Shin. I see no problem for 7 Honorbladebearers to be able to retrive the Blade, much more as the new owner will probably powerless at all (well except be equipped with a bit stronger Shardblade). I could agree the Stone Shaman are the Stoneward's lineage and they keep some of their phylosopy but for them to be actual Radiant...it's unlikely Edited November 7, 2017 by Yata
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 7, 2017 Author Posted November 7, 2017 2 hours ago, Yata said: The fake isn't real a possibility as the Spren would be unable to remain there without his knight. There's nothing to say that they stay lying on the field as the radiants walk until the choas starts, then puff away. They don't get very far, so they aren't straining the bond. It's implied Syl flew a lot farther to get the leaves for Kaladin on early oaths. 2 hours ago, Yata said: We know also there was no difference between the Windrunner and Stoneward's cases...so unless also the Windrunner faked this, it's almost impossible the Stoneward tricked everyone. How do we know this? 2 hours ago, Yata said: There are also blade who are accounted to be Stoneward's Blade in the modern times. Can you cite this for me? 2 hours ago, Yata said: Secondly, the Shin have not "knowlege they could not have" because honestly after 5000 years of possession they could figure out a lot of stuff We have no reason to think that possessing the Honorblade would somehow teach them the proper names for surgebinder abilities, such as lashings and regrowth, terms used in the Are Arcanum and by Wyndle. Their use in other areas suggests a standardized, technically defined knowledge that the Shin have. Possessing the Blades for 5,000 years shouldn't give them technical definitions. Learning from KR is the more likely of the two you present. 2 hours ago, Yata said: Shin's gods are not the Heralds, Nale's line implies that Szeth's gods are the heralds instead of the rest of the Shin I had missed the italicized 'you', thanks for the correction. 2 hours ago, Yata said: I see no problem for 7 Honorbladebearers to be able to retrive the Blade, Except that it contradicts what we know of Shin culture, unless have can find a good reason for why the Stone Shamans are not subject to that cultural rule: Quote "...any man who picks up a weapon must join them and be treated the same."
Yata he/him Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: There's nothing to say that they stay lying on the field as the radiants walk until the choas starts, then puff away. They don't get very far, so they aren't straining the bond. It's implied Syl flew a lot farther to get the leaves for Kaladin on early oaths. Hundreds of Blade vanishing in nothing is something not really stealthy much more with people fighting for them. Syl indeed flew decently far from Kal, but she wasn't pushed so hard in the physical. 1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: How do we know this? Did you see any difference between them ? They both follow the same actions and the Shards are described in the same way. I also suspect some of them were killed by the scary/angry/greedy people. 1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: Can you cite this for me? I could not, and indeed I had to say "probably", I miswrote in the previous post, sorry. 1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: We have no reason to think that possessing the Honorblade would somehow teach them the proper names for surgebinder abilities, such as lashings and regrowth, terms used in the Are Arcanum and by Wyndle. Their use in other areas suggests a standardized, technically defined knowledge that the Shin have. Possessing the Blades for 5,000 years shouldn't give them technical definitions. Learning from KR is the more likely of the two you present. I didn't present the two as mutual exclusive. The Shin had thousands of years with the Blade and the informations from the KR. There was probably a common topic in the eroic stories of the time. There were books about. Probably there is a lot in the "Words of Radiance" alone. 1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: Except that it contradicts what we know of Shin culture, unless have can find a good reason for why the Stone Shamans are not subject to that cultural rule: We have a WoB about the Shin to be ok in holding and training (with imply holding) Honorblades. You could find it in the most recent event's topic (I am unsure to be able to post it here at the moment)...Honestly I could not say why there is still exception, maybe the Honorblade are not considerated weapons or ....I don't know. Anyway in my previous post I forgot another point. In the vision Honor says something on the line "they were the first" refering to the Windrunner and Stoneward's Oathbreaking. Unless Honor was deliberatelly lying (something strictly difficoult for his Shard but not really impossible) for no real reason...This is a good argument for the WR and SW as the Recreance's start EDIT: I manage to retrive the relevants WoB Quote Questioner Are all Truthless given Honorblades when they're cast out, or is Szeth a special case? Brandon Sanderson Szeth is a special case. [01:36:55] Questioner Are Shin who are not Truthless allowed to use the Honorblades? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Edited November 7, 2017 by Yata
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 7, 2017 Author Posted November 7, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Yata said: Did you see any difference between them ? Live Shardblade can change their shape, general form, and size. This would be the heart of the subterfuge. 1 hour ago, Yata said: Hundreds of Blade vanishing in nothing is something not really stealthy much more with people fighting for them. Syl indeed flew decently far from Kal, but she wasn't pushed so hard in the physical. We don't have hard numbers on how many stonewards were actually there at Feverstone. It could be hundreds, it could not be. 'Large numbers' is used to describe the Windrunners, not the Stonewards. The choas of battle is also the perfect time to puff away stealthily. Two people are fighting over a shard on the ground, the one kills the other, goes to grab the weapon and it's suddenly gone. Plus, from my interpretation, they just need to fool other Radiants. 1 hour ago, Yata said: I didn't present the two as mutual exclusive. The Shin had thousands of years with the Blade and the informations from the KR. There was probably a common topic in the eroic stories of the time. There were books about. Probably there is a lot in the "Words of Radiance" alone. I wasn't suggesting you presented them as mutually exclusive. I was pointing out that having a sword for 5,000 doesn't teach you what kind of sword it is. They would have to get that information from outside sources. We've seen no evidence of any discussion of specific power sets in WoR, so I disagree with probably. 1 hour ago, Yata said: Anyway in my previous post I forgot another point. In the vision Honor says something on the line "they were the first" refering to the Windrunner and Stoneward's Oathbreaking. He also says they were the last. If this is interpreted to mean breaking Oaths, it's self contradictory. Edited November 7, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak
The One Who Connects he/him Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 The Level of "Oh it's this discussion again" is too dang high. 12 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: seek out the potential stonewards and keep the Stone Shamans alive through the years Mid-December 2012: Szeth and the Stone Shaman Early March 2014: The stone shamans and the Honorblade Mid-March 2014: Stone Shamanism descended from Stonewards Late March 2014: The Shin are actually descended of the Stonewards, not Skybreakers. Mid-April 2014: stone shamanism and KR (Spoilers) Early June 2014: The Stonewards went into hiding Early July 2016: The Stone Shamans and the Faithful order (Extended Version) Mid-September 2016: Origins of Stone Shamanism Early October 2016: The Legendary Stubbornness of the Stonewards Far be it for me to say this vein of discussion should have died out centuries ago, but.... 12 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: What if they just left their spren there until they were far enough away until they could puff away in the confusion to be resummoned later when they were safely away from the others? I've made this argument before. And like you, I was debating it with Yata. Funny how things work out huh? On 9/22/2016 at 8:10 AM, The One Who Connects said: This is true, although I can imagine one possibility that almost works with several facts that we know. I imagine the people at Feverstone Keep were more occupied with fighting over the blades than where the former Radiants were going, at least for a while. The ones that faked the broken bond could hide behind some hill or broken building nearby (since the blade would despawn if the Radiant got too far away, do you imagine that the glow would fade as the distance increases too?) That could solve one issue. As for getting the blades back, that could also work assuming the spren have enough control while in bladeform. I fully expect several officers or former thieves attempting to grab as many as they could take and try and escape with them. Someone would see them doing that and attack them, and (since you can't fight and carry extra giant swords) the living sprenblades on the ground could "disappear" and no one would know the difference. Something that I realized is that such a thing could account for (or at least help with) the large disparity in old and current blade count that Dalinar noticed. Note: this is another one of my "designed 2 minutes earlier" theories, so it's definitely reaching at times. As stated in what is now ten threads, the Stonewards quit. That said, the above option is still on the table for one of the other Orders to have used.
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 7, 2017 Author Posted November 7, 2017 (edited) 48 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: The Level of "Oh it's this discussion again" is too dang high I tried several times, using the forums search and Google search, and also using refinement by date and several different search criteria, to try and see if this has been posted before. As I said yesterday, it's hard to catch up from three years missing. 48 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: Far be it for me to say this vein of discussion should have died out centuries ago, but.... There's not a lot on any of those threads that I haven't managed to sum up in about three posts, and there's no counter argument there that's definitive against the argument that you and I put forth. 48 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: As stated in what is now ten threads, the Stonewards quit. That said, the above option is still on the table for one of the other Orders to have used. How many Stonewards? The quote we have from the vision cuts off before we get any information except on the Windrunners. Quote “… the Order of the Stonewards, my lord,” the still-mounted scout was saying. “And a large number of Windrunners. All on foot.” Why is it impossible for them to have faked their breaking of oaths? If they can modulate size and shape, why can't they modulate the way they glow? We have some evidence in text that it could change, depending on the interpretation. Quote Shallan growled, thrusting her hands forward . Mist twisted and writhed in her hands as a brilliantly silver Blade formed there, spearing Tyn through the chest . The woman barely had time to gasp in surprise as her eyes burned in her skull. WoR 34 Kaladin stared at the glistening length of metal, which dripped with condensation from its summoning. It glowed softly the color of garnet along several faint lines down its length. WoR 72 He formed in her hands, the Blade she’d used to kill. The hidden soul. Shallan rammed it into the slot, and the weapon vibrated in her hands and glowed. Something deep within the plateau unlocked. WoR 86 In the first it's described as 'brilliantly silvery,' then glowing the color of garnet, then the last passage suggests it wasn't glowing until she activated the oathgate. It's one thing to say that you don't agree with my assessment or that you don't find it likely, but to post a bunch of threads that never address the points I make when you've made the points yourself and they still haven't been fully addressed is not a definitive 'no' to the theory. I'm finding it very confusing on how to engage with you. On the other thread, I couldn't get you to engage the thesis for the minutiae, and on this one, you won't address the supporting minutiae for having already dismissed the thesis. If it's not something you're on board with personally, simply state that like Calderis did, and we can amiably leave it at that. Please don't fail to address my points while also telling me I'm wrong. Edited November 7, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak
The One Who Connects he/him Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 1 minute ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: I tried several times, using the forums search and Google search, and also using refinement by date and several different search criteria, to try and see if this has been posted before. As I said yesterday, it's hard to catch up from three years missing. Never refine by specific dates. It's rubbish. The other fun tip is that, counter-intuitively, you will get more accurate search results with less words. To quote myself from the "Nuances of Search Functions" bit in my Sig: On 6/29/2017 at 8:31 PM, The One Who Connects said: Near as I can tell, there is absolutely no difference between "contain any of my search terms" and "contain all of my search terms," it seems defaulted to any, with preference to the first term you write: "word of Brandon" will give you results with any of them, but the most "relevant" ones will be those will 2+ of them, then those with "word" specifically, then "of," then "Brandon." I refined it to search within topic titles only, and used "Shaman," "Shamans," "Shamanism," "Stoneward," and "Stonewards" separately. 10 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: I'm finding it very confusing on how to engage with you. It's one thing to say that you don't agree with my assessment or that you don't find it likely, but to post a bunch of threads that never address the points I make when you've made the points yourself and they still haven't been fully addressed is not a definitive 'no' to the theory. Sounds about par for the course. A general rule of thumb is that I mostly offer corrections or additional information, rather than actually debating things unless I get myself roped into it. The Other Topics are a good example of the former. Originally, I was gonna post them as a "this has been talked about over here, might be useful to you." Then I realized how many times it'd been discussed and I got a little out of phase. So sorry for that. I knew our point had never been addressed, but some of the others had. I should've actually read them rather than assuming some of them had those more straight up shutdowns on things. (I assumed there was a 2 year gap in discussing the topic for a reason) 55 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: On the other thread, I couldn't get you to engage the thesis for the minutiae, and on this one, you won't address the supporting minutiae for having already dismissed the thesis. If it's not something you're on board with personally, simply state that like Calderis did, and we can amiably leave it at that. Please don't fail to address my points while also telling me I'm wrong. I only addressed the one point(albeit indirectly) because it was the only one I saw any need to address. I'll admit I was a little rude and that I should've added a little more reasoning to my statement, but I'd gotten tired of discussing it. I trust Honor's Vision, and don't see them faking it regardless. In my eyes, Stubbornness and Subterfuge don't mix. 36 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: Why is it impossible for them to have faked their breaking of oaths? If they can modulate size and shape, why can't they modulate they way they glow? We have some evidence in text that it could change, depending on the interpretation. In the first it's described as 'brilliantly silvery,' then glowing the color of garnet, then the last passage suggests it wasn't glowing until she activated the oathgate. I don't think modulating how much the blade glows is something they have the ability to do. I don't see the point of the ability. Outside of faking the Recreance, why would that ability be used? Even if they could, I don't think they'd be able to do so while not actually holding the blade. (If somebody has their blade change form while they aren't holding it, then maybe, but until then... The blade is described as being silver. The garnet lines are describes as faint lines along the blade itself. Even if they were brighter, Shallan wouldn't be able to see those in the first part because the blade was run through Tyn at the time. Kaladin likely points them out for the same reason Adolin points out the glow on Dalinar's plate. They've seen plate/blade before, but the glow is unique, so they notice it. I'm not fully sure on the Oathgate bit, but I feel that has more to do with the mechanism itself unlocking than anything else. 1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: How many Stonewards? On the subject of arguments from the past.. Quoth Marianmi: "Then you can argue for any order to have done that " It's probably of note that you appear to be the 3rd person who doesn't consider Honor's Vision as sufficient evidence that the Stonewards quit. There is the part where they gave up their Shardplate too, which I don't believe anyone has brought up. Your thoughts on that portion of the proceedings? Also, since you mentioned I didn't address some of your other points: 10 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: Can you cite this for me? We have an astonishing lack of blade details beyond our main cast. Courtesy of Maxal: Quote We have this: Oathbringer (Dalinar > Sadeas > ???): “Six feet long from tip to hilt … It was long and slightly curved, a handspan wide, with wavelike serrations near the hilt. It curved at the tip like a fisherman’s hook, and was wet with cold dew.” The Way of Kings (p. 202-203). “…curved, like a back arching, with a hooklike tip on the end matched by a sequence of jutting serrations by the crossguard.” Words of Radiance (p. 88). Sunraiser (Elhokar): “It was long and thin with a large crossguard, and was etched up the sides with the ten fundamental glyphs.” The Way of Kings (p. 203) Eshonai: “[It] was wicked and barbed, like flames frozen into metal.” The Way of Kings (p. 930) Szeth (Note: This is an Honorblade, not a true Shardblade): “His Shardblade was long and thin, edged on both sides, smaller than most others.” The Way of Kings (p. 25) Firestorm (Gavilar > Elhokar): “[It was] six feet long with a design along the blade like burning flames, a weapon of silvery metal that gleamed and almost seemed to glow.” The Way of Kings (p. 29) Helaran Davar (Shallan’s brother) > Amaram: “It was engraved and stylized, shaped like flames in motion.” The Way of Kings (p. 671) It is also described as having a white gemstone in the pommel—or at least, the stone flashes white. (p.706) It is also described as being “etched along its length” Words of Radiance (p. 160). Adolin: “Its surface was austerely smooth, long, sinuous like an eel, with ridges at the back like growing crystals. Shaped like a larger version of a standard longsword, it bore some resemblance to the enormous, two-handed broadswords he’d seen Horneaters wield.” Words of Radiance (pp. 219-220). Moash: “…a shimmering silvery Blade. Edged on both sides, a pattern of twisting vines ran up its center.” It has a heliodor in the pommel. Words of Radiance (p. 780, 782). Looking at it, it seems many known Shardblades have flames embedded into them, one way or another. Thus, they must belong to same orders or close-to orders. Blades with Flames: Eshonai, Gavilar/Elhokar, Helaran/Amaram Blades with Hook: Oathbringer Blades with Glyphs: Elhokar Edgedancer Blade: Adolin Blade with Vines but doesn't look at all like Adolin's: Moash. Could be another Edgedancer Blade or not. So looks like we have Blades from at least four orders, maybe five. It is not impossible some orders are more readily found in Alethkar which would account for the high number of known Blades with flames. As for the missing Blades, well, maybe not all knights dropped their Shards on the ground for anyone to pick them up. It could be some buried them, hid them or threw them into the sea. I am thinking Oathbringer is a Stonewards Blade. Sunraiser is... something else. The flames Blades are probably Dustbringer. I cannot say if Moash's Blade is an Edgedancer Blade or not: it does not resemble Adolin's. The only element which may tie it to the Edgedancers is the vines on it. For some reason, Adolin's Blade is blue... as far as we know, it is the only Blade which has a distinctive color. Moash's blade could be a Truthwatcher blade, as Progression can make vines/plants grow. User thejopen27 believes there was a mention of a blade with geometric patterns running along it at some point. I'd probably consider that as a Lightweaver Blade from the similarity to a Cryptic, but I don't know when then mention happened. Regarding our Radiants, have the table from the Wiki(which might format weirdly on mobile, so fair warning) Quote Spren Name Radiant Name Order Typical Form Notes References Ivory Jasnah Kholin Elsecaller Sword Blade is long and thin [78] Pattern Shallan Davar Lightweaver Sword Initially believed it to be a dead Shardblade - Has several faint lines down its length [14] Sylphrena Kaladin Stormblessed Windrunner Spear Blade is covered in swirls [10] Wyndle Lift Edgedancer Pole or fork Has never appeared as a Blade [79][41] unknown Harkaylain Windrunner Sword Radiant from the Heraldic Epochs [25] And that's that. Now that the internet appears to be functioning again, I can finally post this. 2
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 8, 2017 Author Posted November 8, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: . 2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: Never refine by specific dates. It's rubbish. The other fun tip is that, counter-intuitively, you will get more accurate search results with less words. To quote myself from the "Nuances of Search Functions" bit in my Sig: Thanks, that will help a lot. 2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: but I'd gotten tired of discussing it The point I'm trying to make is that I'm being sincere and that replies like give the appearance that you don't feel I'm putting in the work or the thought on my end, and I promise you I am. I love being corrected, as it helps me towards the right answer, but I also understand that as someone who was a Speech and Debate competitor for four years, and a coach for three years after that, I have both a high standard for disproving things and a tendency to stick to traditional rules of discourse that can make it frustrating to engage with me. If there's a topic you don't want to discuss, I value frankness and honesty, and would prefer that be stated up front, for both of our benefit. 2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: I don't see the point of the ability. Outside of faking the Recreance, why would that ability be used? I could see it being very useful in a situation where you needed to be stealthy and use your shard weapon, but couldn't use investiture for fear of the Stormlight revealing yourself. Or the other way, to be intimidating and glow suddenly brightly in a dark space to disorient and blind your enemy. Most importantly, it doesn't have to be an inherent ability but just a side effect of perception. If the Knights are able to hold a fixed perception in their mind of what they want they Blade to do, a similar mechanic to a shardbearer holding concentration to throw a Blade, they Spren should be able to comply. Perception is crucial to the magic on Roshar 2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: On the subject of arguments from the past.. Quoth Marianmi: "Then you can argue for any order to have done that " This is a true statement, but we weren't brought into a description of the other orders mid sentence when describing numbers leaving it intentionally vague as it was in the Dalinar chapters. In the epigraph "two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; " So as far as how many, we actually can answer that for 9/10. A large number of Windrunners, and 'much' of their [other 8] membership. Stonewards are left without any sort of qualifying description. 2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: It's probably of note that you appear to be the 3rd person who doesn't consider Honor's Vision as sufficient evidence that the Stonewards quit. There is the part where they gave up their Shardplate too, which I don't believe anyone has brought up. Your thoughts on that portion of the proceedings? The vision alone would be sufficient evidence. The vision, combined with the in world WoR excerpts that appear to contradict itself makes me look for interpretations using evidence we have that we don't have the whole picture. As far as the plate is concerned, I didn't spell it out as clearly in the OP as I should have. In Starfall, we know the Radiants can summon their helmets and dismiss them. From there, it's not an unreasonable assumption that they could do that with all their plate as well, and engage in the great subterfuge that way. Thank you for taking the time to reply despite your reluctance to engage in the topic. I do greatly appreciate it and I consider it a personal favor. Edited November 8, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak
Calderis he/him Posted November 8, 2017 Posted November 8, 2017 (edited) OK. So this is all opinion, but it's my head canon, and the reasons that I am dead set against this idea. 1) I don't believe that the Spren can control the glow of their blades. There are live glowing blades, and there are dead blades. If the glow could be altered, why wouldn't Pattern have hidden his in the chasms when as yet to be revealed Radiant Shallan loaned him to Kal against the Chasmfiend? 2) I don't think that Radiant plate can be removed. It is dismissed, and summoned, never set aside. In order for the plate to have dropped to the ground, I believe it had to have been broken. 3) the Stonewards are repeatedly seen working together with the Windrunners. I don't think this is simply strategy, I think the Orders were exceptionally friendly with each other due to similar moral leanings. 4) Probably the least conventional idea I'll put forward here. The Recreance. I don't believe that the secret that broke the Radiants was itself able to break their oaths. It was the force that drove the Recreance, but they had to intentionally break their individual oaths. The reason we only see Stonewards and Windrunners at Feverstone keep is because that was specifically chosen by those orders as a way to break their oaths. The other orders chose tasks that would do the same, and by the nature of their oaths, all of these tasks varied. Simply deciding the bond was over isn't enough. Oaths require action to uphold or break. Deciding that, in the Windrunners case they would no longer protect, would not break their oaths in itself. Especially if the choice was made because the "secret" itself is something that foreswearing their oaths was perceived as protection from. So these two orders chose Feverstone keep, and intentionally gave up their blades in sight of men. The reaction of greed and infighting was expected, and was what truly broke their oaths. All that whichever order that didn't break had to do, was put forward a task to separate themselves from the others. It could have been something that would legitimately have broken their oaths, and as long as they were not accompanied by another order, they would have had no need to follow through. So all together, I do not believe that that vision could have been a trick. Edited November 8, 2017 by Calderis 3
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 8, 2017 Author Posted November 8, 2017 8 hours ago, Calderis said: If the glow could be altered, why wouldn't Pattern have hidden his in the chasms when as yet to be revealed Radiant Shallan loaned him to Kal against the Chasmfiend? Well, we do know that Pattern has a hard time hiding himself in the physical realm, and that some Spren are better at it than others, buy beyond that, I think this is a poor example. Kaladin was supposed to be the distraction so there's no reason to hide the good to try to avoid the Chasm fiend. Kaladin was the bait to allow Shallan to get her satchel and escape to the warcamps. 9 hours ago, Calderis said: the Stonewards are repeatedly seen working together with the Windrunners. Where else do we see them working together?
Yata he/him Posted November 8, 2017 Posted November 8, 2017 Quote “… the Order of the Stonewards, my lord,” the still-mounted scout was saying. “And a large number of Windrunners. All on foot.” The sentence seems to point to at least comparable numbers between the two orders, if there were just a bit of SW and a lot of WR...It will be more resonable to start with "there are a lot of Windrunner....and some Stoneward"
Calderis he/him Posted November 8, 2017 Posted November 8, 2017 9 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: Where else do we see them working together? Starfalls. The two Radiants in that vision are a Windrunner, and a Stoneward with a regrowth fabrial.
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 8, 2017 Author Posted November 8, 2017 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Calderis said: Starfalls. The two Radiants in that vision are a Windrunner, and a Stoneward with a regrowth fabrial. Gotcha. Doing a quick reread nothing super obvious jumped out at me. Is it because her eye color matches the corresponding order gemstone in the Ars Arcanum? Just trying to figure out what to look for in the future, I don't really have anything else concrete to say again against your points. I think your idea about Plate is especially interesting Edited November 8, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak
Calderis he/him Posted November 8, 2017 Posted November 8, 2017 14 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: Gotcha. Doing a quick reread nothing super obvious jumped out at me. Is it because her eye color matches the corresponding order gemstone in the Are Arcanum? Just trying to figure out what to look for in the future, I don't really have anything else concrete to say again against your points. I think your idea about Plate is especially interesting Yes. Both her eyes and plate. It's the same way we've determined that the Radiant in the Purelake vision was a Dustbringer 1
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 8, 2017 Author Posted November 8, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calderis said: Yes. Both her eyes and plate. It's the same way we've determined that the Radiant in the Purelake vision was a Dustbringer very cool. Give your secrets unto me Stormlight Archives. 2 hours ago, Yata said: The sentence seems to point to at least comparable numbers between the two orders, if there were just a bit of SW and a lot of WR...It will be more resonable to start with "there are a lot of Windrunner....and some Stoneward" I don't agree. If they were comprable there's no reason to separate them out by individual descriptions "...a large number of Stonewards and Windrunners." Grammatically, it's perfectly acceptable the other way. "A single representative of the order of the Stonewards and a large number of Windrunners." Overall you guys raise good points and I'm very skeptical that it's true, but I don't think we have enough concrete evidence to fully rule it out. I think it's significant that we have on screen evidence that seems to be self contradictory, and that multiple people have latched onto it as potential foreshadowing without any conclusive arguments arising to shoot it down. I'm not trying to say any of those is enough to assert that it's likely or probable, but I think it's enough to give the idea merit. Edited November 8, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak
stonedshaman Posted November 8, 2017 Posted November 8, 2017 Going back to the glow of Shallans blade, I always assumed it didn't glow when she killed Tyn because her perception was that it was a shardblade and not a live one which explains why she thinks it takes 10 heartbeats to summon 1
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 8, 2017 Author Posted November 8, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, stonedshaman said: Going back to the glow of Shallans blade, I always assumed it didn't glow when she killed Tyn because her perception was that it was a shardblade and not a live one which explains why she thinks it takes 10 heartbeats to summon That's an interesting perspective. It's hard to say either way because Shallan is actively fighting with herself and her buried memories in the scene. Quote Calm, Shallan told herself. Be calm! Ten heartbeats. But for her, it didn’t have to be ten, did it? No. It must be. Time, I need time! She had spheres in her sleeve. As Tyn approached, Shallan breathed in sharply. Stormlight became a raging tempest inside of her and she raised her hand, thrusting out a pulse of Light. She couldn’t form it into anything—she still didn’t know how—but it seemed for a moment to show a rippling image of Shallan, standing proudly like a woman of the court. Tyn stopped short at the sight of the projection of light and color, then waved her sword out in front of her. The Light rippled, dissipating into smoky trails. “So I’m going mad,”Tyn said. “Hearing voices. Seeing things. I guess part of me doesn’t want to do this.”She advanced, raising her blade. “I’m sorry that you have to learn the lesson this way. Sometimes, we must do things we don’t like, kid. Difficult things.” Shallan growled, thrusting her hands forward. Mist twisted and writhed in her hands as a brilliantly silver Blade formed there, spearing Tyn through the chest. The woman barely had time to gasp in surprise as her eyes burned in her skull. WoR 34 Blossoms and Cake Edited November 8, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak
CaptainRyan he/him Posted November 8, 2017 Posted November 8, 2017 On 11/6/2017 at 9:17 PM, Fifth of Daybreak said: this directly contradicts the description of the Stonewards from Chapter 13: "they thought it a point of virtue to exemplify resolve, strength, and dependability." Personally, I think this premise is what is faulty about the theory. While we do not know what "caused" the Recreance we can assume that whatever it was, it was awful enough to convince 9 out of 10 Orders to forswear their oaths and kill their spren. The "resolve, strength, and dependability" needed to go through with what is essentially a group suicide pact seems right up the alley of the Stonewards. If they, as an Order, decided that forswearing their oaths was the correct move then I think they would be at the forefront of the movement to follow through; no wishy-washy back-and-forth but, instead, they would move forward with resolve and dependably do what they said they would. Imo of course haha
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 8, 2017 Author Posted November 8, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said: The "resolve, strength, and dependability" needed to go through with what is essentially a group suicide pact seems right up the alley of the Stonewards. I have to disagree in the context of the full quote though. Quote Now, as each order was thus matched to the nature and temperament of the Herald it named patron, there was none more archetypal of this than the Stonewards, who followed after Talenelat'Elin, Stonesinew, Herald of War: they thought it a point of virtue to exemplify resolve, strength, and dependability. Alas, they took less care for imprudent practice of their stubbornness, even in the face of proven error. ” If they are the order that is most matched with their herald, it makes beautiful symmetry for them to be the only order that doesn't abandon their oaths given the apparent knowledge that Taln is still bound to the Oathpact (I'm only qualifying this as 'apparent' because of Brandon's 'man who refers to himself as Taln' shenanigans.) There's also the part at the end of being stubborn in the face of proven error. If the recreance is caused because the Radiants suddenly find something out that makes them feel as though they aren't doing the right thing, it would make sense that the Stonewards would be the ones to ignore that proven error and keep fighting. Edited November 8, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak
CaptainRyan he/him Posted November 8, 2017 Posted November 8, 2017 7 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: I have to disagree in the context of the full quote though. Quote Now, as each order was thus matched to the nature and temperament of the Herald it named patron, there was none more archetypal of this than the Stonewards, who followed after Talenelat'Elin, Stonesinew, Herald of War: they thought it a point of virtue to exemplify resolve, strength, and dependability. Alas, they took less care for imprudent practice of their stubbornness, even in the face of proven error. ” If they are the order that is most matched with their herald, it makes beautiful symmetry for them to be the only order that doesn't abandon their oaths given the apparent knowledge that Taln is still bound to the Oathpact (I'm only qualifying this as 'apparent' because of Brandon's 'man who refers to himself as Taln' shenanigans.) There's also the part at the end of being stubborn in the face of proven error. If the recreance is caused because the Radiants suddenly find something out that makes them feel as though they aren't doing the right thing, it would make sense that the Stonewards would be the ones to ignore that proven error and keep fighting. I hear you and I agree there is a chance that the Stonewards were the sneaky hidden Order but I, personally, sincerely doubt it. Hats off to you though if it turns out you were right!
Yata he/him Posted November 8, 2017 Posted November 8, 2017 Now that I think about. It's possibile someone can't fake an Oathbreaking at all without the Illumination Surge (Truthwatchers maybe) because also if they leave the Blade and Plate (but the Blade is relevant here) they would still have Radiant's eyes...It would took hours for their eyes to return normal. 2
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted November 8, 2017 Posted November 8, 2017 What I don't get is why the Stonewards would have to pretend to break their oaths? I also don't get what the word subterfuge means.
CaptainRyan he/him Posted November 8, 2017 Posted November 8, 2017 4 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said: subterfuge sub·ter·fuge ˈsəbtərˌfyo͞oj/ noun deceit used in order to achieve one's goal. synonyms: trickery, intrigue, deviousness, deceit, deception, dishonesty, cheating, duplicity, guile, cunning, craftiness, chicanery, pretense, fraud, fraudulence More
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