Couple of Questions

[Kered]

I've been doing one last re-read of SA for Oathbringer and I've gathered some new questions a long the way that I haven't been able to find answers to. I might not have looked hard enough, as I didn't go that deep into Theoryland and Page's collection. Would be super grateful for answers. 

First one. We know that Hoid was at the Shattering which means he existed when Adonalsium was whatever it was before the Shattering. We also know that Ole' Adonal created the first humans. That being said, has anyone ever asked Brandon directly if Adonal created Hoid and the 16 vessels? I know it's probably a give in and Bradon is pretty tight lipped on things regarding Adonal, but I think it could be a interesting question. 

Second, other than Szeth's first interlude in WoK, is the Black Sphere he in Jah Khaved ever mentioned again?

Third. Was Nohadon a ruler before or after the Herlads were chosen? I've seen a theory that Nohadon might be Jezrein and the Heralds changed there names upon becoming a Herald, the same information that fuels this theory could also be information that leads us to think Nohadon was before the Heralds time. Anyone find any information like that? 

Four, has the drunk that says (might not be verbatim) "Can you see me?" to Szeth in the WoK prologue been confirmed as a Herald?

Five. In WoK, Lirin says something to Kaladin in reference to the old City Lord dying. He says "The Almighty calls all men back to the Spiritual Realm eventually". Where would Lirin hear of the Spiritual Realm? Has it ever been said what religion Lirin followed and why the religion would know of what essentially is a cosmere-aware term? Or am I just dumb and it isn't a cosmer-aware term lol.

Sorry for the randomness and number of the questions lol.  

Edited October 28, 2017 by Kered

[The One Who Connects]

15 minutes ago, Kered said:

That being said, has anyone ever asked Brandon directly if Adonal created Hoid and the 16 vessels? I know it's probably a give in and Brandon is pretty tight lipped on things regarding Adonal, but I think it could be a interesting question. 

Adonalsium may have created Yolen and all the people on it, but I don't think he directly created Hoid's generation of people.

Adonalsium created several planets, including but not limited to Roshar. Yolen and Nalthis had humans on them pre-shattering. While Adonalsium was doing that, I think Yolen and the people on it existed for quite a while before Hoid and the Vessels were actually born. So I guess it would be a question of semantics: Ruin and Preservation created the first people on Scadrial, but does that mean that they "created" the current generation? The same applies here.

7 minutes ago, Kered said:

Second, other than Szeth's first interlude in WoK, is the Black Sphere he left in Jah Kaved ever mentioned again?

In Books 1 and 2.. I don't believe so. We have a WoB that we will know what the Sphere is by the end of Book 3, so there's that.

8 minutes ago, Kered said:

Third. Was Nohadon a ruler before or after the Heralds were chosen? I've seen a theory that Nohadon might be Jezrien and the Heralds changed there names upon becoming a Herald, the same information that fuels this theory could also be information that leads us to think Nohadon was before the Heralds time. Anyone find any information like that? 

Nohadon mentions Surgebinders. Surgebinders came into existence because Spren tried to imitate the Heralds. At the absolute earliest, Nohadon was alive for the Second Desolation. The Heralds fought off the First Desolation, which would've been a minimum of about 350 years prior(by my estimates). So the Heralds predate Nohadon by at least 3 centuries, possibly more if he was in a later Desolation.

12 minutes ago, Kered said:

Four, has the drunk that says (might not be verbatim) "Can you see me?" to Szeth in the WoK prologue been confirmed as a Herald?

Nope. The only things that are canon about him are written on that page of the book. Brandon has given us nothing more, nothing less.

[Calderis]

1) directly created? I doubt it. Adonalsium created life, but by the time of the Vessels and the shattering they were presumably born and lived normally. 

2) after Szeth's interlude that tells us it is in Jah Keved, it has not been mentioned.

3) Nohadon ruled prior to the formation of the Knights Radiant, as The Way of Kings influenced their creation. The desolations were already occurring though, so the Heralds were already in existence. 

4) not confirmed. 

[cloudjumper]

5. Since Lirin references the Almighty and the heralds in the book, Kaladin doesn't ever mention Lirin, Hesina, or himself being atheist or any other religion, and atheism or any other religion besides Vorinism is very rare in Alethkar, it's probably safe to assume that Lirin is Vorin. There are religions in the Cosmere that have some level of Cosmere awareness, so Vorinism probably has at least this level of Cosmere awareness considering that it is one of the planets Adonalsium created and did cool stuff on before he shattered.

 

Disclaimer: I'm using some facts here that are based off of my own not-great memory and haven't read either of the books for a while, so Calderis or someone else smart will probably have to correct me. You should probably trust any other person's post over my own.

[Calderis]

@cloudjumper it isn't heavily conveyed, but Hesina is obviously a believer with Kaladin's mention of her use of Glyphwards. Lirin's are never really addressed, but he knows enough to correct Kaladin's repeated misconceptions about the Knights and the Voidbringers. I think he's agnostic, and that's where Kal got his leanings. 

Quote

geoffw35

You have Jasnah give such a good argument for the atheist point of view that I thought, well Brandon is probably an atheist (as I am). Then I started watching your writing class videos. Oops! In one of them you say that you feel you can successfully draw an atheist character. I certainly agree. ;-) Jasnah does seem to lack compassion to some degree, but I insist that religion is not necessary for one to be compassionate. You draw characters wonderfully!

Brandon Sanderson

Kaladin is agnostic, which most people miss in these discussions, and is the series argument for a compassionate non-believer. Dalinar is a liberal theist, and Navani an orthodox theist.

 

[Kered]

Thanks for the answers peeps. So it's safe to say that you're saying Adonalsium did not create the first forms of life? Or is it we just don't know enough yet? That's the kind of theme I'm sensing from the WoB's I've been reading since I posted this. 

[The One Who Connects]

1 minute ago, Kered said:

So it's safe to say that you're saying Adonalsium did not create the first forms of life? Or is it we just don't know enough yet?

We were saying that even if Adonalsium created Yolen, he did not specifically create Hoid and the Vessels. They were most likely born several generations after Adonalsium created the people of Yolen(as we assume he did)

Whether he created the actual first forms of life is up for debate, but that wasn't the question you were asking.

[Kered]

Ahh, I skipped over the generation part, I see what you're saying now. Thanks.

[Kered]

17 hours ago, cloudjumper said:

5. Since Lirin references the Almighty and the heralds in the book, Kaladin doesn't ever mention Lirin, Hesina, or himself being atheist or any other religion, and atheism or any other religion besides Vorinism is very rare in Alethkar, it's probably safe to assume that Lirin is Vorin. There are religions in the Cosmere that have some level of Cosmere awareness, so Vorinism probably has at least this level of Cosmere awareness considering that it is one of the planets Adonalsium created and did cool stuff on before he shattered.

 

Disclaimer: I'm using some facts here that are based off of my own not-great memory and haven't read either of the books for a while, so Calderis or someone else smart will probably have to correct me. You should probably trust any other person's post over my own.

 

16 hours ago, Calderis said:

@cloudjumper it isn't heavily conveyed, but Hesina is obviously a believer with Kaladin's mention of her use of Glyphwards. Lirin's are never really addressed, but he knows enough to correct Kaladin's repeated misconceptions about the Knights and the Voidbringers. I think he's agnostic, and that's where Kal got his leanings. 

 

I think I found the answer just a few chapters later, in a Shallan POV. She's having a conversation with Jasnah about scholars theories on why the Listeners killed Gavilar, and Jasnah says- "“Your tutors were idiots. Youthful immaturity is one of the cosmere’s great catalysts for change, Shallan. Do you realize that the Sunmaker was only seventeen when he began his conquest? Gavarah hadn’t reached her twentieth Weeping when she proposed the theory of the three realms.” 

 Looks like an in world scholar came up with the Three Realm "theory" on their own.

[+Extesian]

@Kered the ardents measuring spren explicitly describe and name the three Realms as well so the knowledge is there even if it's not spread widely. Brandon also said that Taravangian knew of the realms from in-world sources.