Stormlight Healing and Suspension of Disbelief

[Stormrunner1730]

I recently re-read the Adolin/Renarin/Kaladin vs. Relis, Elit, Abrobadar, and Jakamav fight (such an epic scene).  There's a point in the fight (my personal favorite part besides "Honor is Dead, but I'll see what i can do) where Kaladin performs a Lashing-enhanced jump kick on one of the enemy Shardbearers.  He effectively knocks the Shardbearer over, but breaks both of his legs in the process.  Now this isn't a huge deal and is kid of a nit-picky detail, but his legs seem to heal pretty damnation quickly.  It almost seems like Stormlight healing for Radiants is kind of a deus ex machina, where they can heal (or not) depending on what the plot needs them to do in that moment.  Now, I know that this will be much needed once they start facing Voidbringer/binders, but it just seemed to break my suspension of disbelief slightly.  Maybe I'm being too nit-picky with this, but I just don't want Stormlight healing to become a deus ex machina where it can be used as-needed to either heal just enough, or not enough depending on what the plot demands.

[King Cole he/him]

Probably because he had a lot of stormlight. The healing is rather rapid though

[CaptainRyan he/him]

12 minutes ago, King Cole said:

Probably because he had a lot of stormlight. The healing is rather rapid though

IIRC, Kaladin was actually holding only a little bit at a time as he did not want to glow too obviously.

Also, contrast this scene with Szeth fighting Gavilar in the prologue of "Way of Kings"; Szeth makes a remark about needing hours to fully heal from the punch to his face. Hours. (page 33 of the first edition on Kindle)

Now, maybe, this is related to using an Honorblade instead of having a Nahel bond but it does set certain expectations right from the beginning that are then drastically changed when the scene @Stormrunner1730 mentions happens. Another improbable explanation is that Kaladin overstated his injuries but, being a surgeon, it is unlikely he misunderstood what happened.

My take is that yes, you have to suspend your disbelief for this. Thankfully, this scene is so amazing anyways that I'm more than willing to just ignore it haha

Edited October 26, 2017 by CaptainRyan

[MistbornAlpaca he/him]

This is a little bit of a problem, but if you go to chp. 32 of WoR "The One Who Hates", which is the first assassination attempt Szeth makes on Dalinar, when Kaladin hits the ground after falling from the hole in the wall, his shoulder is shattered, and in this scene it describes how Kaladin feels it knit back together on the ground, and it happens extremely quickly as well.

As for Szeth's healing of the punch to the face, I think that might be because he has an honorblade, not a Nahel bond. Surgebinding, as granted via honor blades, tends to use much more stormlight than a Nahel bond would, and I think that's what's going on in that scene.

[Ryder]

I think there's a WoB that Szeth is much less able to heal because he's bonded to an honorblade which is much less efficient, instead of having a nahel bond.  I also don't think the stormlight healing will be too much of a deus ex machina later in the series because of how shardplate (presumably) works.  In that same duel scene we see Kaladin run out of stormlight because the helmet on his fist uses it all to repair itself.  Eventually the main characters will probably get plate, and when they do they'll need to balance their stormlight usage between surgebinding and preserving/regrowing their plate.  I'm assuming they won't get injured much until their plate shatters.  I think the real danger for the knights will be the same as what Kaladin experiences in the duel: they will need to use all their stormlight to keep the plate together, but eventually they will run out and be unable to surgebind, maintain their plate, or heal.

[Calderis he/him]

Stormlight healing is OP. The early statements by Szeth on the rate are meant to convey that there is a difference between Szeth and Kaladin's healing. This is shown multiple times, as well as with Szeth's inability to heal Shardblade cuts. 

The only thing that will keep a Radiant from healing is lack of stormlight, or a killing blow. 

Edited October 26, 2017 by Calderis

[Yata he/him]

Like Calderis said a Radiant with enough Stormlight could heal Almost everything that not istant kill him.

By the way, I believe you are overstating Kal's wound in the Arena.

Yeah he broke his legs and for a physical recover It's a long term recover.

But the actual damaged area is relative small and the Stormlight needs only to fix that.

[17th Splinter he/him]

Also I believe that he didn't wait until his legs were fully healed, but instead waited until he could walk. The full healing could have taken place during the next several minutes of the fight, instead of those few seconds. 

[+Wax he/him]

Definitely it changed... Szeth’s later fights with Dalinar and Kaladin where he healed much faster...

[Stormrunner1730]

On 10/26/2017 at 4:40 PM, CaptainRyan said:

IIRC, Kaladin was actually holding only a little bit at a time as he did not want to glow too obviously.

Also, contrast this scene with Szeth fighting Gavilar in the prologue of "Way of Kings"; Szeth makes a remark about needing hours to fully heal from the punch to his face. Hours. (page 33 of the first edition on Kindle)

Now, maybe, this is related to using an Honorblade instead of having a Nahel bond but it does set certain expectations right from the beginning that are then drastically changed when the scene @Stormrunner1730 mentions happens. Another improbable explanation is that Kaladin overstated his injuries but, being a surgeon, it is unlikely he misunderstood what happened.

My take is that yes, you have to suspend your disbelief for this. Thankfully, this scene is so amazing anyways that I'm more than willing to just ignore it haha

Yeah I ultimately agree with your final statement.  The sequence is so cool that it's fine.  I would say that Kaladin was probably pretty accurate at assessing his injuries given his medical training background though (like you said).

21 hours ago, Calderis said:

Stormlight healing is OP. The early statements by Szeth on the rate are meant to convey that there is a difference between Szeth and Kaladin's healing. This is shown multiple times, as well as with Szeth's inability to heal Shardblade cuts. 

The only thing that will keep a Radiant from healing is lack of stormlight, or a killing blow. 

Yeah I definitely see how the Nahel bond is allegedly (and so far) a mor efficient way of using Stormlight (although I think that Honoblades were equal to the Nahel Bond in this way while Honor/Tanavast was still alive).  I guess the idea of Stormlight healing being so OP is kind of annoying to me.  Granted, they're obviously going to need it to be OP once they start fight Voidbringer/binders.  It's a small gripe that I ultimately don't really mind that much.  But it is slightly annoying when so much of Surgebinding is so well done/thought out.

17 hours ago, Yata said:

Like Calderis said a Radiant with enough Stormlight could heal Almost everything that not istant kill him.

By the way, I believe you are overstating Kal's wound in the Arena.

Yeah he broke his legs and for a physical recover It's a long term recover.

But the actual damaged area is relative small and the Stormlight needs only to fix that.

That's a fair way of looking at it.  He moves pretty well if that's the case.  But you could argue that it's enough for him to move and function in the fight.

[Vortaan he/him]

15 hours ago, axcellence said:

Definitely it changed... Szeth’s later fights with Dalinar and Kaladin where he healed much faster...

There's a large difference from a laceration from a spear and getting hit by a man in Shardplate in the face. Adolin straight kills Parshendi with punches, and they are a lot tougher than one Shin man with no armor. I'm not surprised it takes him awhile to heal that, his Stormlight was probably working overtime just to keep him conscious.

[TheMediocreMind]

On 10/26/2017 at 9:41 PM, Yata said:

Like Calderis said a Radiant with enough Stormlight could heal Almost everything that not istant kill him.

By the way, I believe you are overstating Kal's wound in the Arena.

Yeah he broke his legs and for a physical recover It's a long term recover.

But the actual damaged area is relative small and the Stormlight needs only to fix that.

Plus the severity of the break isn't stated. I doubt it was a full on snap of the leg bones. A break could be anything from a small fracture to the bone sticking out the side of the leg so I could see him potentially being able to heal from this fairly quickly

[Walin he/him]

Also, Stormlight protects against falling damage. Kaladin fell with a lot of speed, and the amount of time he spent in contact with the Plate was short enough to count as a landing. If he just fell onto the Plate and Lashed himself a bunch, enough to be crushed, all the Stormlight could do is heal.

Thus, Kaladin’s legs were probably cracked or broken much less than warranted by his impact with the Plate. This doesn’t contribute much to the discussion of Stormlight healing, though.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

I thought bringing in the text would help here. Spoiler tag for length.

Spoiler

Though Kaladin fell only a short distance— enough that it wouldn’t look too unusual to those watching— he hit with the force of having fallen much farther. His feet smashed against the Plate as he kicked with everything he had.

Pain shot up his legs like lightning striking, and he heard his bones crack. The kick flung the black-armored Shardbearer forward as if he’d been struck by a boulder. Relis went sprawling on his face, Blade flung from his hands. It vanished to mist.

Kaladin crashed to the sand, groaning, his Stormlight exhausted and the Lashings ended. By reflex, he sucked in more Light from the spheres in his pocket, letting it heal his legs. He’d broken them both, and his feet.

The healing process seemed to take forever, and he forced himself to roll over and look at Relis. Incredibly, Kaladin’s attack had cracked the Shardplate. Not the center of the back plate where he’d hit, but at the shoulders and sides. Relis climbed to his knees, shaking his head. He looked back at Kaladin with what seemed like an attitude of awe.

Beyond the fallen man, Adolin spun and came in at one of his opponents— Elit, the one with the hammer— and slammed his Shardblade two-handed into the man’s chest. The breastplate there exploded into molten light. Adolin took a hit on the side of the helm from the man in green to do it.

Adolin was in bad shape. Practically every piece of Plate the young man wore was leaking Stormlight. At this rate, he’d soon have none left, and the Plate would grow too heavy to move in.

For now, fortunately, he’d basically incapacitated one of his adversaries. A Shardbearer could fight with his breastplate broken, but it was supposed to be storming difficult. Indeed, as Elit backed away, his steps were awkward, as if his Plate suddenly weighed a lot more.

Adolin had to turn to fight the other Shardbearer near him. On the other side of the arena, the fourth man— the one who had been “fighting” Renarin— was waving his sword at the ground for some reason. He looked up and saw how poorly things were going for his allies, then left Renarin and dashed across the arena floor.

Kaladin scrambled to his feet. Blessedly, they worked; the bones had reknit enough for him to walk. He charged Elit, kicking up sand as he ran, spear clutched in one hand.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 669). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

4

I don't think it breaks it up that much at all. Honestly this was one of the only breaks in the entire fight, and the first time I read through it I was out of breath. I needed this break in the action it provided. Kaladin even describes the process as feeling like it takes forever, so for what my two cents are worth I disagree. 

 

He also was carrying more stormlight than he was normally accustomed to:

Quote

On this bright day, with the sun blazing white overhead, he could risk more than he normally would. Nobody would see it. Hopefully.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 666). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Octopus]

We see another instance of very fast stormlight healing when Jasnah gets stabbed through the chest on the ship in from of Shallan. It is certainly  possible that she soul cast a fake body to be stabbed. However, more likely she actually was stabbed, but because her brain and body can run on stormlight without oxygen a heart failure (or stabbing through the heart) is not death and can be healed just like any other injury– and that in fact Jasnah healed herself of even what would be a mortal wound quick enough to eslecall to shadesmar before the ship flooded. 

[AbsentKeeper he/him]

On 10/30/2017 at 5:01 PM, Octopus said:

We see another instance of very fast stormlight healing when Jasnah gets stabbed through the chest on the ship in from of Shallan. It is certainly  possible that she soul cast a fake body to be stabbed. However, more likely she actually was stabbed, but because her brain and body can run on stormlight without oxygen a heart failure (or stabbing through the heart) is not death and can be healed just like any other injury– and that in fact Jasnah healed herself of even what would be a mortal wound quick enough to eslecall to shadesmar before the ship flooded. 

This is a good point, welcome to the Shard!

If you read the Jasnah 'behind the scenes' chapter, she talks about this: (spoilers for those who haven't read it, and spoilers up through WoR in the chapter itself)

https://www.tor.com/2014/08/06/stormlight-archive-scene-after-words-of-radiance/

Spoiler

Jasnah is shown healing from a stab through the heart, and specifically states that only a crushing blow to the head could kill a KR with enough Stormlight.

Edit: Suffice to say, Stormlight healing is rediculous, though apparently not as good as gold compounding, which kinda surprised me.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Cowmanthethird
Fixed the link

[Knghtstlker he/him]

He healed much faster by the end of the WoR due to his 3rd Oath? I know this happened prior. but I believe he wasn't restricted on Stormlight Consumption in that fight, I vaguely remember a line of something along the lines of "It was a Bright Day so Kaladin sucked in as much stormlight as he dared". Which means he was probably teaming with it. He probably had way more stormlight in him at the time he snapped his legs on *Insert name here*'s back, than when he healed his Sharddead arm. Right?

He had leftover Spheres that he stole light from that Szeth had on him, He had Szeth's reserves, and even though Kaladin is more efficient with Stormlight, I bet it takes MORE to heal Sharddead Limbs than broken bones right? I got the impression he bought Adolin a few minutes with that maneuver, Dazed both himself and the attacker.

Deus Ex Machina: The healing I think is somewhat of a it is whatever it needs to be whenever it needs to be there, but! I think it will be more consistent and better framed in the future, now that Kaladin has a pretty good sense of what it can accomplish. Lets Keep in mind where we left Lopen at the end of WoR,

I have not read any Spoiler Chapters. Please keep it that way.

Thoughts?

[Vortaan he/him]

19 hours ago, Knghtstlker said:

He healed much faster by the end of the WoR due to his 3rd Oath? I know this happened prior. but I believe he wasn't restricted on Stormlight Consumption in that fight, I vaguely remember a line of something along the lines of "It was a Bright Day so Kaladin sucked in as much stormlight as he dared". Which means he was probably teaming with it. He probably had way more stormlight in him at the time he snapped his legs on *Insert name here*'s back, than when he healed his Sharddead arm. Right?

He had leftover Spheres that he stole light from that Szeth had on him, He had Szeth's reserves, and even though Kaladin is more efficient with Stormlight, I bet it takes MORE to heal Sharddead Limbs than broken bones right? I got the impression he bought Adolin a few minutes with that maneuver, Dazed both himself and the attacker.

Deus Ex Machina: The healing I think is somewhat of a it is whatever it needs to be whenever it needs to be there, but! I think it will be more consistent and better framed in the future, now that Kaladin has a pretty good sense of what it can accomplish. Lets Keep in mind where we left Lopen at the end of WoR,

I have not read any Spoiler Chapters. Please keep it that way.

Thoughts?

I don't think the rate ever changed. Kaladin healed minor lacerations without even noticing before he even said one oath. When he fights in the arena he has two Oaths under his belt, so even if it only effects how efficiently he can use Lashings, he is still using less Stormlight to Lash and has more available for healing. People keep looking at "well he healed this way fast!" but the situations aren't like to like. Kaladin versus Szeth the first time isn't a great represantation of what Kaladin with two Oaths behind him is capable of. Frankly I really think at that point if they were even in Stormlight Kaladin may have been able to beat Szeth the first time.                                                                          

[Knghtstlker he/him]

6 hours ago, Vortaan said:

I don't think the rate ever changed. Kaladin healed minor lacerations without even noticing before he even said one oath. When he fights in the arena he has two Oaths under his belt, so even if it only effects how efficiently he can use Lashings, he is still using less Stormlight to Lash and has more available for healing. People keep looking at "well he healed this way fast!" but the situations aren't like to like. Kaladin versus Szeth the first time isn't a great represantation of what Kaladin with two Oaths behind him is capable of. Frankly I really think at that point if they were even in Stormlight Kaladin may have been able to beat Szeth the first time.                                                                          

Eh, in this case I think you're off to the left a bit. The more Stormlight he can hold the easier it would be to heal. Just as it would be easier to quench your thirst with three skins of water instead of one, One  would certainly help. Two, you could down the first one quickly, then take a couple of big gulps out of the 2nd, but still have plenty left. Three, and you could tie the third to your belt to save for later consumption. It's mentioned several times that the more Oaths the better the vessel, so, even when exposed to the Highstorm. The Sphere was glowing but he didn't pull them in. by his third set of oaths, He could ride the storm wall, or traverse the storm itself. Oaths have a direct reflection on abilities.

[AbsentKeeper he/him]

On 10/31/2017 at 0:56 AM, Knghtstlker said:

I have not read any Spoiler Chapters. Please keep it that way.

Just to be clear, that chapter has spoilers for WoR, not Oathbringer. It's a bonus chapter that will not be in any published book.

[Knghtstlker he/him]

10 hours ago, Cowmanthethird said:

Just to be clear, that chapter has spoilers for WoR, not Oathbringer. It's a bonus chapter that will not be in any published book.

I only speak  about spoilers because I see a bunch of chapters for Oathbringer on the main page, and I don't want someone bringing in anything from those chapters. I was not talking about OP or anyone that brought up anything here.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 10/27/2017 at 4:20 PM, Stormrunner1730 said:

Yeah I definitely see how the Nahel bond is allegedly (and so far) a more efficient way of using Stormlight (although I think that Honorblades were equal to the Nahel Bond in this way while Honor/Tanavast was still alive).

It's not allegedly, it's fact. And Brandon's answer makes me think it was always that way.

Quote

[–]18th_Shard 6 points 2 years ago

1. What is one Epic power ....

2. Does a Herald using an Honorblade consume the same "dangerous" amounts of Stormlight?

[–]mistborn[S] 9 points 2 years ago 

1. I think that if ....
2. Honorblades are less efficient; this doesn't change when a Herald uses them. (But they have other advantages.)

---

On 10/30/2017 at 4:14 PM, Cowmanthethird said:

though apparently not as good as gold compounding, which kinda surprised me.

It's because dying breaks the bond with your Spren, preventing you from being able to access the Stormlight. The ability to use Feruchemy is hard-coded into your spiritweb, and doesn't go away unless it gets spiked out.

[AbsentKeeper he/him]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

It's because dying breaks the bond with your Spren, preventing you from being able to access the Stormlight. The ability to use Feruchemy is hard-coded into your spiritweb, and doesn't go away unless it gets spiked out.

The logic of it makes perfect sense now that I think about it, Stormlight was just always the best cosmere healing in my headcanon until I read that chapter for some reason.

On the topic of this thread, Feruchemical gold is way more OP and suspension-of-disbelief breaking. 

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

On 11/1/2017 at 3:44 AM, Knghtstlker said:

Eh, in this case I think you're off to the left a bit. The more Stormlight he can hold the easier it would be to heal. Just as it would be easier to quench your thirst with three skins of water instead of one, One  would certainly help. Two, you could down the first one quickly, then take a couple of big gulps out of the 2nd, but still have plenty left. Three, and you could tie the third to your belt to save for later consumption. It's mentioned several times that the more Oaths the better the vessel, so, even when exposed to the Highstorm. The Sphere was glowing but he didn't pull them in. by his third set of oaths, He could ride the storm wall, or traverse the storm itself. Oaths have a direct reflection on abilities.

I don't agree with this. Surgebinders with Nahel bonds that have progressed further in the oaths definitely consume Stormlight more efficiently then Honorblade users.

Quote

"But his Shardblade . . .”

“What of it?” Kaladin asked.

“It was different. Very different.”“It looked ordinary to me. Well, as ordinary as a Shardblade can.”“It was different,” she repeated. “I feel I should know why. Something about the amount of Light he was consuming . . .”

Words of Radiance Chapter 33 Burdens

In WoK, we see several times that Kaladin goes through shock symptoms after consuming large amounts of Stormlight while in his early stages. 

Quote

The men nodded, trotting off to search for the wounded. Kaladin set one man to watch over Shen—he wasn’t sure what else to do with the parshman—and tried not to show his exhaustion as he put his sweaty, carapace-covered cap and vest in Lopen’s litter. He knelt down to go through his medical equipment, in case it was needed, and found that his hand was shaking and quivering. He pressed it down against the ground to still it, breathing in and out.

Cold, clammy skin, he thought. Nausea. Weakness. He was in shock.

Way if Kings, Chapter 62 Three Glyphs

We don't see the same symptoms later with similar feats such as the four shardbearers duel. 

I think a good reason for this can be outlined from the groundwork laid in my thread "The Physiology of holding Stormlight" in my signature. To boil it down, Stormlight acts as an intravenous gas and binds with receptors in the blood. Let's calls these spiritual blood cells, or sbc. 

Let's assume that a Nahel bond surge benefits from increased efficiency in transporting(sbcs), holding, and using Stormlight. (I don't want to being up quotes for this, but Szeth chapters have a few that should support it.)

Now assuming an ineffective surgebinder with ineffective sbcs, it requires larger amounts of Stormlight and investiture in order to perform the same feat, which means that more Stormlight has travel through the body for anything to happen. 

There are three ways to increase cardiac output, change the fluid, the pipes, or the pump. Stormlight allows all three to be enhanced beyond normal physical limitations, engorging blood vessels beyond their normal capacity to fill with Stormlight and magically invigorating muscles to work harder and heal, possibly even allowing the heart to stretch beyond its limit and pump faster and harder than should be humanly possible. 

The easiest way would just be for the Stormlight to expand all the blood vessels having a systemic vasodilation effect allowing them to fill to capacity with Stormlight giving the honorblade user access to the investiture they need to use their powers. A Nahel bond spren user would need only a fraction of the dilation because they can both transport the Stormlight more efficiently (think an athlete vs a couch potato) and can use it more efficiently.)

This becomes important when the Stormlight runs out. The blood vessels cannot all constrict immediately to return to a normal state. This causes the shock symptoms that Kaladin had. His body cannot compensate fast enough for the transition his body just went through. Imagine how a balloon looks just after it's been deflated, all stretched out; the blood vessels are in a similar state and need to be able to constrict again.

The body also might be damaging itself compensating for whatever it has to do to make room for that magical energy. Not having to repair that damage could allow for faster healing in other areas.

[Knghtstlker he/him]

I definitely agree with you. 100% I was speaking more to the fact that during Adolin's fight, he was of the 2nd Oath, and in the final fight with Szeth he was of the 3rd Oath. But his healing capabilities continue to increase as it continues. He both becomes a more accepting vessel for stormlight "In and out". I like your idea of SBC Fifth of Daybreak. It makes it easy to imagine. To Clarify my thoughts on the subject. No, I do not think that Stormlight healing is as OP Stated as the Deus Ex Machina. I believe it operates in the confines of the reality of the world just as everything else does. I think if anything qualifies as this Deus Ex Machina you speak of, it would be in my eyes, Dalinar's capabilities of catching any object he is required to. Shard blades, Claws the size of Boulders with probably twice the force of one falling... Of course he was in Shard plate when he caught the latter. Of course he is a well trained fighter. some would argue the best. But, Colors man! he's got the stickiest hands in all of Roshar!