[OB] Amaram has a date

[Wreith he/him]

You haven't done anything for the greater good if you haven't given people the opportunity to agree with you.

He killed Kaladin's men. No discussion. No explanation. No opportunity to say "Sure, you're right. You should have the shards"
Do you think if he had said "Give me the shards or I'm going to kill your men" Kaladin would have hesitated at all?

He unilaterally murdered people unnecessarily.

His beliefs are irrelevant to this situation.

If he had made his case and Kaladin had refused him, then his beliefs come into play and an argument can be made.

 

[Alderant she/her]

54 minutes ago, Wreith said:

Do you think if he had said "Give me the shards or I'm going to kill your men" Kaladin would have hesitated at all?

He unilaterally murdered people unnecessarily.

I'm inclined to think along this line of thought. Kaladin, tears pouring down his cheeks told Amaram that he would have given him the shards had Amaram asked. And yes, we're told Restares told him to do it, but Amaram shows a lot of avarice when it comes to shards. The big question here seems to be do the ends justify the means, or do the means have to justify the ends? This is the big problem with bringing in morality to the situation.

Facts:

• Amaram murdered his own soldiers and branded the man who saved his life as a slave to cover up an act of theft.
• Amaram attempted another theft of a shardblade for his own reasons.

Regardless of morality, those are not the acts of a good man.

Moral dilemma points:

• Amaram believed that he was uniquely qualified to save mankind, therefore he should have the shards.
• Amaram has displayed marked avarice with regards to the possession of shardblades.
• Amaram did not ask for the shards taken, believing that Kaladin would eventually demand the shards taken (lawfully) from him and cause insubordination.

1. Amaram may have believed he could save the world, but murdering men who have placed their trust in him and their lives in his hands is one of the most heinous acts of betrayal in the history of soldiering.

2. Amaram's avarice and desire for "the greater good" means simply that Amaram will do whatever he feels is necessary to ensure that his goals are met. He has a pang of guilt over killing Kaladin's men, so he does Kaladin a "mercy" and brands him a slave, then perpetuates that Kaladin's men were deserters and tried to go over to the enemy. This is a cover-up on a colossal scale.

3. Amaram dispenses with Kaladin and his men for the sake of avoiding an inconvenience down the road. Not because the world would have been endangered by his soldiers, but because he believes that there is no reason a darkeyes would reject a shardblade. This shows not only cold indifference toward his men, but also a distinct prejudice.

[Blacksmithki]

End results of Amaran's plan:

1: kill 90 odd percent of the human population

2: bring back the heralds

3: hope that brings back the dominance of the church

4: hope no one overthrows it again

cost-benifit is rather low here even if the believe the ends justify the means...

[Leyrann]

29 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

End results of Amaran's plan:

1: kill 90 odd percent of the human population

2: bring back the heralds

3: hope that brings back the dominance of the church

4: hope no one overthrows it again

cost-benifit is rather low here even if the believe the ends justify the means...

Agreed on this. His plan relies quite a lot on "if the Voidbringers are there, the Heralds will come back" and "if the Heralds come back, the church will get into power again". Now, even apart from the debate of wheter or not you want the church in power again, the question is how do you know that the Voidbringers aren't just gonna end humanity* for good this time?

*Or whoever is good in this series. I don't know.

[Guest Edonidd]

The handful of people Amaram killed literally pale in comparison to the number killed by Taravangion.  Both did it because they thought it was the only/best way to save the world.  Both have kept it a big secret, their biggest darkest secret.  But Amaram killed a handful and even spared the life of a man he probably shouldn't have out of sheer respect for him and what he did.  T however hasn't spared anyone.  He has killed thousands of people, maybe tens of thousands.  And people here love him.  Can't wait to get more info on him and more chapters with him.  Can't wait for him to be a bondsmith and one of the leaders of the whole world. 

 

I get it.  I just think its interesting.

[Alderant she/her]

9 minutes ago, Edonidd said:

T however hasn't spared anyone.  He has killed thousands of people, maybe tens of thousands.  And people here love him.  Can't wait to get more info on him and more chapters with him.  Can't wait for him to be a bondsmith and one of the leaders of the whole world. 

I actually hate him. I liked him up until the end of WoK. Now I think he's one of the most terrifying characters in the series.

[The Invested Beard]

25 minutes ago, Edonidd said:

The handful of people Amaram killed literally pale in comparison to the number killed by Taravangion.  Both did it because they thought it was the only/best way to save the world.  Both have kept it a big secret, their biggest darkest secret.  But Amaram killed a handful and even spared the life of a man he probably shouldn't have out of sheer respect for him and what he did.  T however hasn't spared anyone.  He has killed thousands of people, maybe tens of thousands.  And people here love him.  Can't wait to get more info on him and more chapters with him.  Can't wait for him to be a bondsmith and one of the leaders of the whole world. 

 

I get it.  I just think its interesting.

I don't really like that guy either...

[Samaldin he/him]

The reason, i at least, find Taravangian to be less despicable than Amaram is, Taravangian knows he is a monster. Amaram does what he thinks is for the best of the world, same thing with Mr. T, but when Amaram made Kaladin a slave i found it obvious he did it to ease his conscience. Best way i can put it is T accepts he´s doing despicable things for the best of the world, while A does despicable things, but because he believes them necesary he thinks them just.

Of course this interpretation only works because i can see both T and A as individuals in the books, if i only heard about their actions (for example in real life) T would be much worse than A

[Alderant she/her]

42 minutes ago, Samaldin said:

The reason, i at least, find Taravangian to be less despicable than Amaram is, Taravangian knows he is a monster. Amaram does what he thinks is for the best of the world, same thing with Mr. T, but when Amaram made Kaladin a slave i found it obvious he did it to ease his conscience. Best way i can put it is T accepts he´s doing despicable things for the best of the world, while A does despicable things, but because he believes them necesary he thinks them just.

Of course this interpretation only works because i can see both T and A as individuals in the books, if i only heard about their actions (for example in real life) T would be much worse than A

So are you saying that Amaram is more despicable because he’s excusing what he’s doing, while Mr. T is admitting what hes doing is terrible?

[Tarion]

1 hour ago, Edonidd said:

The handful of people Amaram killed literally pale in comparison to the number killed by Taravangion.  Both did it because they thought it was the only/best way to save the world.  Both have kept it a big secret, their biggest darkest secret.  But Amaram killed a handful and even spared the life of a man he probably shouldn't have out of sheer respect for him and what he did.  T however hasn't spared anyone.  He has killed thousands of people, maybe tens of thousands.  And people here love him.  Can't wait to get more info on him and more chapters with him.  Can't wait for him to be a bondsmith and one of the leaders of the whole world. 

 

I get it.  I just think its interesting.

Eh, it looks like the Sons of Honor have been working towards the return of the Voidbringers. Gavilar did a decent chunk of it by telling the Parshendi that he could return their Gods (Setting off a chain of reactions that led to the Everstorm), but Amaram has continued his work.

Taravangian's body count is bigger now, but 10 years down the line it will be entirely the other way, if Amaram has his way. 

He's actively working to save as many people as possible. Sure, he's pretty awful, but he's honest about how awful he is. I can respect that, disagree with him and still enjoy reading about him. 

[Darkness he/him]

4 hours ago, Alderant said:

So are you saying that Amaram is more despicable because he’s excusing what he’s doing, while Mr. T is admitting what hes doing is terrible?

Well... They both believe that they are taking the best way to save the most people they can. In the process, they are both willing - though not pleased - to sacrifice a number of people both close to them and unknown. Amaram feels some small guilt, but excuses himself in the name of the greater good, allowing his sense of purpose to outweigh the continual moral dilemmas. Taravangian - depending on the day - seems to feel true remorse and wish he didn't have to be the one causing so much pain.

To me, they are quite comparable, but I would give my sympathy vote to compassionate-Taravangian > Amaram > intellectual-Taravangian.

[Samaldin he/him]

8 hours ago, Alderant said:

So are you saying that Amaram is more despicable because he’s excusing what he’s doing, while Mr. T is admitting what hes doing is terrible?

Basicly yes. Being willfully blind to the evil you´re doing is worse, than accepting it. But that is my interpretation on an individual/character level, from an objective viewpoint (like they have in-universe) Taravangian is worse because of the sheer number of deaths (but given time Amaram will probably catch up^^)

[Leyrann]

And here I don't either like or hate Taravangian, but just hold off what I think of him to see more of what is going to happen first...

I do hate Amaram though, but that's more of a 'personal' feeling, because of what he did to Kaladin and his men, which was also from Kaladin's point of view after a whole book of getting to know Kaladin.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I don't think we should judge people based on body counts. If one person killed one guy for fun, and another person killed five because he thought it was the right choice in a tough situation, I would judge the first guy more harshly than the second. Numbers doesn't decide wether a person is good or bad. We can't say that Amaram is worse than King T or vice versa depending on killcount. They are both trying to limit the damage they are doing, they don't want to kill anyone, and they wish to do what they perceive as good. Everyone has different opinions on what good is, and it is basically impossible to decide who is right. We can not judge people because they perceive the world differently from us. In the end, T and Amaram aim to do the right thing, and I feel like that matters the most. 

[Yata he/him]

From my perception Amaram is worst than Mr. T but of course someone else could think it different.

Mr.T is working to avoid an horrible situation and in doing this he is performing bad things.

Amaraman is doing bad things too but without to be forced by the events, he (and the Sons of Honor) started the horrible scenario. It was not something forced upon them but something they activelly triggered.

 

[Starla]

I get the sense that Amaram is way creepier than we've seen so far. We've seen him kill four men who trusted and protected him, send one to slavery, steal two shardblades and one shardplate, and lie to Dalinar's face about all of it. This is bad enough, but it seems he's had more shady dealings than we've seen onscreen. A few quotes from WOR:

Quote

“Perhaps if you found pleasant associations,” Gavilar said, “you would enjoy the feasts.” His eyes swung toward Amaram, whom he’d long fancied as a potential match for her. It would never happen. Amaram met her eyes, then murmured words of parting to her father and hastened away down the corridor.

This is from Jasnah's POV in the prologue. What went on between them that makes Jasnah say their match would never happen, and cause Amaram to meet her eyes then hasten away?

Quote

Sadeas snorted. “Don’t give me that noble talk. It works fine for others, but I know you for the ruthless bastard you really are.” Amaram set his jaw, eyes forward. 

If Sadeas is saying you're a ruthless bastard, then you probably are.

Quote

“My father,” Adolin said, “is the best man I know, perhaps the best man alive. Even he loses his temper, makes bad judgment calls, and has a troubled past. Amaram never seems to do anything wrong. If you listen to the stories about him, it’s like everyone expects him to glow in the dark and piss nectar. That stinks, to me, of someone who works too hard to maintain his reputation.”

Adolin gets the creeper vibe from Amaram. Adolin also sensed something different about Kaladin, and he was right. I trust his instincts.

Quote

“Lord Amaram,” Wit called, standing to bow, his voice growing solemn. “I salute you. You are what lesser cretins like Sadeas can only aspire to be.”

This is a part of a longer episode where Wit rips Amaram apart. Wit seems to see hidden things about people that others cannot. What has he heard or sensed that makes him think Amaram is worse than Sadeas? 

These tidbits make me think Amaram has been up to no good for quite some time. I hope we get to find out more about what he and the Sons of Honor have been doing. I'm curious how they feel about the Knights Radiant and what this means for Dalinar now that Amaram is Highprince. Will he undermine the KR's efforts to fight the voidbringers and other agents of Odium? It seems that much chaos may come from this latest development. As much as I dislike Amaram as a person, I enjoy reading about him and hope he stays around for a while, causing trouble for our protagonists.

 

[Rasha]

Spoiler

 Will he undermine the KR's efforts to fight the voidbringers and other agents of Odium?

 

I dont think he will fight with the Voidbringuers. Returning the Heralds and the Vorin Church has no value if humankind is extinguished. The KR are servents of the Heralds. He would not impede them, I think.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Rasha

[Guest]

On 10/24/2017 at 4:29 PM, Tarion said:

Specifically, he has a duel with Adolin Kholin coming up in the not-too distant future. I don't see it going well for him. 

Skipping a lot of discussion, I will jump into this one because this has been one of my speculations. I did speculate Adolin's right to duel Sadeas would be transferred to someone else and someone else would think it is within his best intention to honor it. So while Adolin was granted the right to duel Sadeas, it was unfortunately postponed until the next year. As such, I always thought shall Sadeas come back and state he changed his mind and he'd rather be done with it now, then Adolin would need to duel him. Or maybe he gets to say no and wait until the said date, but we all know Adolin would say yes.

Thus, I did consider the possibility Amaram may have inherited of Adolin's right to duel Sadeas. And while it may be possible nobody would force nor expect Amaram to honor it, it may be Amaram will see it is within his best interest to enforce it.

We have to consider the possibility the Sadeas might want to duel Adolin. They might think they can beat him, either honorably or not. Chances are Adolin will go back into the dueling ring and chances are he will lose this time. He can't win them all.