Theory: Taln uses his Honorblade to control Thunderclasts via Hemalurgy

[Skyline]

From WOK:

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To his side, he carried a massive Shardblade... it was long, narrow, and straight, shaped like an enormous spike

WOB:

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Q:  Would a Hemalurgic spike take surges?
A:  Hemalurgy can interact with every one of the magics.  I designed it specifically in writing Mistborn for future use.  Because some of the magics are so limited by their planet I wanted one that transcended all of them and Hemalurgy is very important to the entire Cosmere  Its invention is a thing of great power and great danger to the entire Cosmere.
 
Q:  Have people not from/on Scadrial used Hemalurgy?
A:  Yes.

 

[+Extesian he/him]

[Wreith he/him]

We have another WoB that there is a Kandra worldhopper which would satisfy the question in your WoB.

I'm sure there are other things happening out there, but I wouldn't jump at the explicit use of the word "spike". I'm quite sure it will be more subtle than that.

[Skyline]

2 minutes ago, Wreith said:

We have another WoB that there is a Kandra worldhopper which would satisfy the question in your WoB.

I'm sure there are other things happening out there, but I wouldn't jump at the explicit use of the word "spike". I'm quite sure it will be more subtle than that.

Kandra are from Scadrial, the question essentially had two parts and implied there are people not from Scadrial who have used Hemalurgy. 

Also WOK was the first Cosmere book I read, and even then I could tell there was a significance to his sword being a spike. I'm obviously not saying "this is for sure it", but I think the shape of his sword is very relevant, and we all know what a spike does in the Cosmere.

It's just a theory. 

[Calderis he/him]

We also have this. 

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=979#51

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HEROWANNABE ()

Can an infused Hemalurgy spike be affected by Allomancy—steel pushes and iron pulls? Or does the charge interfere with the Allomancy much like a persons body would?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Anything infused (regardless of the world or magic that infused it) is resistant to magic. So you'd have a lot of trouble pushing or pulling on a spike, unless you had access to a boost of some sort to overcome the resistance.

THEOFFICETROLL

So, Nightblade would be resistant to steelpushing? Good to know ;-)

HEROWANNABE

My friend and I asked him something like this at a book signing, but for some reason it never seemed to make it onto 17th Shard. We asked if a shardblade or Nightblood could be used as a hemalurgic spike (i.e.: two different investitures of magic). Brandon said that yes, in theory you could do that, but objects have a limit to how much investiture they can hold, and that it could be argued that things like Nightblood and Shardblades are already "full."

So I'm going to say no. Taln's blade is most likely to invested to be used as a spike. 

Not to mention for what you're suggesting, the blade would need to be placed into a thunderclast to have an effect. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Calderis

[Skyline]

Ah but this is not a Shardblade or Nightblood. This is an Honorblade, and has different properties we don't yet know. 

I picture in my mind Taln riding a thunderclast into battle, it seems very suiting for him.

He could also potentially use it on other creatures we haven't seen. Maybe directing an enemy with his mind while using other weapons in person.

[King Cole he/him]

You are assuming that because Taln has a thin blade, he controls Thunderclasts? I see no reason that this would be a good strategy

[Calderis he/him]

18 minutes ago, Skyline said:

Ah but this is not a Shardblade or Nightblood. This is an Honorblade, and has different properties we don't yet know. 

I picture in my mind Taln riding a thunderclast into battle, it seems very suiting for him.

He could also potentially use it on other creatures we haven't seen. Maybe directing an enemy with his mind while using other weapons in person.

The Spren based their blade forms and the surges they grant on the Honorblades, and Nightblood was made in a mimicry of Shardblades. 

They're all versions of the same thing. 

Honorblades = version 1.0

Spren = 2.0

Nightblood = 3.0

A spike is uninvested metal used to steal a chunk of investiture. Even the Godmetals, which are made of physical formed investiture, are uninvested. Otherwise allomancers would be unable to push atium. 

Without additional evidence, the shape of his Blade means nothing. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Calderis

[Wreith he/him]

Additionally, Hemalurgy as we know it is Ruin's magic. We know that Mistborn S1 happens before WoK proper, but how long before? Enough that Taln would have some way to be familiar with the system before his most recent 4.5 millennia imprisonment?

I also think there's a WoB that the Heralds don't/can't leave the Roshar system, but I may be mis-remembering. So if he was aware of it, someone would have had to bring it to him.

[Skyline]

9 minutes ago, King Cole said:

You are assuming that because Taln has a thin blade, he controls Thunderclasts? I see no reason that this would be a good strategy

uh, no?

I'm theorizing that because his blade is a spike, it is partially intended to take advantage of Hemalurgy.

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The Spren based their blade forms and the surges they grant on the Honorblades, and Nightblood was made in a mimicry of Shardblades. 

They're all versions of the same thing. 

Yes, but they are clearly not the same. An Honorblade doesn't require a nahel bond for example, and it's been hinted that they are capable of things a normal blade isn't. 

2 minutes ago, Wreith said:

Additionally, Hemalurgy as we know it is Ruin's magic. We know that Mistborn S1 happens before WoK proper, but how long before? Enough that Taln would have some way to be familiar with the system before his most recent 4.5 millennia imprisonment?

I also think there's a WoB that the Heralds don't/can't leave the Roshar system, but I may be mis-remembering. So if he was aware of it, someone would have had to bring it to him.

Since Honor created the blades I thought it would be highly possible he knew of Hemalurgy and would be the responsible party.

[King Cole he/him]

But why are thunderclasts brought into this. I would doubt that they have bindpoints, and if they do, they would be completely different. Plus, the reason spiked creatures were able to be controlled is because of emotional allomancy. Without anything to shove the spiked creature into there control, it would have no point

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by King Cole

[King Cole he/him]

19 minutes ago, Skyline said:

uh, no?

I'm theorizing that because his blade is a spike, it is partially intended to take advantage of Hemalurgy.

Yes, but they are clearly not the same. An Honorblade doesn't require a nahel bond for example, and it's been hinted that they are capable of things a normal blade isn't. 

Since Honor created the blades I thought it would be highly possible he knew of Hemalurgy and would be the responsible party.

Also, why would Honor know about hemalurgy. I doubt that every shard knows about every system of investiture. I could be wrong though

[Straw he/him]

How did Thunderclasts get involved in this?

[King Cole he/him]

1 minute ago, Straw said:

How did Thunderclasts get involved in this?

Thats the most confusing part

[Skyline]

Wow you guys are really overthinking this.

I mentioned thunderclasts because frankly, we don't know many enemies they battled with. Maybe 'Stormstriders' or 

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He could also potentially use it on other creatures we haven't seen

How many times do I have to say it's just a theory, and while nobody seems to support it so far, no one has disproved it either. 

[King Cole he/him]

14 minutes ago, Skyline said:

Wow you guys are really overthinking this.

I mentioned thunderclasts because frankly, we don't know many enemies they battled with. Maybe 'Stormstriders' or 

How many times do I have to say it's just a theory, and while nobody seems to support it so far, no one has disproved it either. 

But your only evidence is that it is a blade that kind of looks like a spike. And you aren't even considering the points being made by us. Every part of your argument is based on the blade looking like a spike. We have all given things that are problems with your theory, but it seems like you are unwilling to even consider them.

Edited October 18, 2017 by King Cole

[Skyline]

1 minute ago, King Cole said:

But your only evidence is that it is a blade that kind of looks like a spike

Some of your responses are factually inaccurate.

It doesn't "kind of look like" a spike. It is "shaped like an enormous spike".

I'm not "assuming that because Taln has a thin blade, he controls Thunderclasts"

I'm theorizing that because Brandon described his sword as being "shaped like an enormous spike", it has a relation to hemalurgic spikes that we have prominently seen before. Has there been any mention of something being a spike and not directly related to Hemalurgy? It's a very important thing within the Cosmere and I find it unlikely he would use that description for such an important item carelessly.

[Calderis he/him]

19 minutes ago, Skyline said:

How many times do I have to say it's just a theory, and while nobody seems to support it so far, no one has disproved it either. 

As your "theory" , the onus of providing support is on you. 

We don't have to disprove anything. Without evidence, it's purely unsupported speculation. 

[Skyline]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

As your "theory" , the onus of providing support is on you. 

We don't have to disprove anything. Without evidence, it's purely unsupported speculation. 

It's not unsupported, weakly supported you could say, but it is literally described as a spike - a very important element within the Cosmere. And it is a theory, not a "theory".

I wasn't expecting anyone to prove or disprove anything. I was just thinking out loud about possibilities but I'm getting the impression it's not appreciated around here. I mean you don't have to comment.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Skyline

[Irregular he/him]

2 minutes ago, Skyline said:

It's not unsupported, weakly supported you could say, but it is literally described as a spike - a very important element within the Cosmere.

I wasn't expecting anyone to prove or disprove anything. I was just thinking out loud about possibilities but I'm getting the impression it's not appreciated around here.

It's just that theories are usually more structured and offer more evidence. Thinking out loud is a speculation and should be presented as such. Don't get discouraged though, if you have more ideas you can post them and people will agree or not, based on information and interpretations they have.

[Calderis he/him]

11 minutes ago, Skyline said:

It's not unsupported, weakly supported you could say, but it is literally described as a spike - a very important element within the Cosmere. And it is a theory, not a "theory".

Hemalurgy has no need of spikes. Any metal will hold a charge, people just tend to use pointy things because they are easier to pound through a donor and into a recipient. 

Spikes themselves have no Cosmere significance. Especially for an object that can magically cut through anything. As far as it's ability to puncture or cut, it's shape is literally irrelevant, and any blade would function exactly the same. 

If this blade can be used Hemalurgically, they all can. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Calderis

[Straw he/him]

@Skyline could you explain how Thunderclasts got involved in this? Currently it sort of seems like a "rule of cool" thing with no evidence behind it.

[Aleksiel]

 

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Even after all these centuries, seeing a thunderclast up close made Kalak shiver. The beast’s hand was as long as a man was tall. He’d been killed by hands like those before, and it hadn’t been pleasant.

Kalak's inner speech would have been different if they had a way to control thunderclasts.

[Yata he/him]

@Skyline I will try to explain the reason everyone are saying your theory is mostly impossible:

- Issue n.0) The whole theory is based on the assumption of a Cross-Magical Knowledge and the detail of a complex Magic System like the Hemalurgy is.

IF the Issue n.0 is solved we assumed Taln has the knowledge to craft a Hemalurgic Spike and the general understanding of Hemalurgy at all

- Issue n.1) A so Invested object as an Honorblade is extremely hard to affect with magic and therefore turning into a Spike (by the way, the form isn't relevant in Hemalurgy, you may use a spoon in Hemalurgy if you want...it's just harder to pierce someone with it)

IF the Issue n.0 and n.1 are solved and therefore is possible to have Hemalugy charge into an Honorblade.

- Issue n.2) The hipotetical Honorblade's charge will be mostly depleted by Desolation into Desolation...So Taln kills someone every time for this quite useless trick. Much more I see some problem to pierce someone with an Honorblade (an object that Destroys the Soul) to gain an intact and functional Soul's piece (but this last thing is debatable).

IF the Issue n.0 and n.1 and n.2 are solved and therefore we have an Honorblade with Hemalurgic Charge (from here called Honorblade-Spike)

- Issue n.3) A Thunderclast has not bindpoints as far as we know. Blood is important for Hemalurgy and a Thunderclast is just animated rock.

IF all the issues are solved and both the Honorblade-Spike and Thunderclast are avaliable.

- Issue n.4) Why piercing a Thunderclast with the Spike will turn it under your control ? (by the way good luck in keeping something like a Shardblade strucks into something).

The Hemalurgy's fault that allow to control Hemalurgy pierced being simply installs a Backdoor but doesn't give you any actual power to control the being. So Taln will have no way to control a Spiked being. There is also the problem with the number of Spikes...The weakest beings we know in the regard of Hemalurgy's fault require two Spikes. Controlling a Spren would took much more than that.

Lastly Taln has the need to keep grabbing the Honorblade to keep his Surgebinding's power. Leave the Blade into a thunderclast is an awful idea but this is tangential to the fattibility of the theory.

 

I hope to have clarified a bit the situation