[OB] An alternate theory on the Recreance.

[PatronOfRot]

We know from WoB that the Nahel bond could be amiably severed with the consent of both parties. However, during the Recreance, the Knights Radiant killed their spren. Could Ishtar/ the Bondsmiths link the Spren to the Parshmen in some way such that when the spren lost their sapience, so to did the Parshmen? Could the spren even be in on it? I imagine that being bonded to a dead spren would have effects.

[Blacksmithki]

The issue I have with almost every theory, is, why every order but one? Every knight was willing to kill thier Spren? Someone they are really close to for many orders?

[Wreith he/him]

I kind of like the theory, but I don't think it's correct.

If you look at the Epigraphs in WoR from the in-world book of the same name. We have, in chapter 58

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"So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address." chapter 30, page 18

Which seems to relate to the enslavement of the Voidbringers

Then in chapters 38 and 40 we get

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"Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants’ adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest." chapter 38, page 6

 

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"That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named." chapter 38, page 6

 

You can see, it appears that some secret was discovered that caused the Windrunners at least to abandon their oaths. This happens several chapters, in the in-world WoR, after the plan to stop the Voidbringers. It doesn't seem to be part of some plan.

 

I don't see the two being related in the way you describe.

 

I do however think that the fact that the method of Parshendi enslavement and the fact that they aren't evil on their own might have been part of what led to the Recreance.

The Windrunners found out that Humans had enslaved a race who had no control over their prior actions. They felt the need to release the Parshendi, but also were afraid of reawakening Voidbringers, and being unable to decide, they did neither. We've seen this in Kaladin, being trapped between oaths.

I don't really know how that would extend to the other orders though.

[Blacksmithki]

@Wreith

The issue with what you mention is that not all the orders would have an issue with that. Notably not all elsecallers would have an issue as (can't find it in mobile) there is a WoB saying they would accept a "ends justify means" philosophy and enslaving a race is arguably justified by stopping the desolations. Same with skybreakers. The major issue with theories about the cause is that you need to find a reason that works for exactly 9 orders not 8 or 10.

[The Invested Beard]

6 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

@Wreith

The issue with what you mention is that not all the orders would have an issue with that. Notably not all elsecallers would have an issue as (can't find it in mobile) there is a WoB saying they would accept a "ends justify means" philosophy and enslaving a race is arguably justified by stopping the desolations. Same with skybreakers. The major issue with theories about the cause is that you need to find a reason that works for exactly 9 orders not 8 or 10.

Not just that, but a reason that specifically doesn't work for the Skybreakers specifically.

[Wreith he/him]

13 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

@Wreith

The issue with what you mention is that not all the orders would have an issue with that. Notably not all elsecallers would have an issue as (can't find it in mobile) there is a WoB saying they would accept a "ends justify means" philosophy and enslaving a race is arguably justified by stopping the desolations. Same with skybreakers. The major issue with theories about the cause is that you need to find a reason that works for exactly 9 orders not 8 or 10.

yes hence my 

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I don't really know how that would extend to the other orders though

 

I theorize on this a little here, though I don't really go into detail. I don't necessarily think it's accurate, but it's a theory.

If the Windrunners and Stonewards both found a thing reprehensible and convinced the Bondsmiths of that fact, I feel like the other orders might follow them in a sort of domino effect

Again, no reason to think this is accurate. It is far from the simplest solution, requiring quite a bit of explanation to make it work.

 

[SilverTiger she/her]

Hmmm... Why don't we try to figure out a reason why the Skybreakers would remain, and not the others, and work from there. Since they are Just and Confident, I would suggest something either against the law or cowardly. More likely the former. So, what was against the Radiant Orders' laws?

[Wreith he/him]

10 minutes ago, SilverTiger said:

Hmmm... Why don't we try to figure out a reason why the Skybreakers would remain, and not the others, and work from there. Since they are Just and Confident, I would suggest something either against the law or cowardly. More likely the former. So, what was against the Radiant Orders' laws?

I'm not convinced that the Skybreakers were the ones to remain.

They're the only ones we know to be active currently, but it's entirely possible they were refounded unless there's information I'm forgetting 

[Blacksmithki]

1 hour ago, Wreith said:

I'm not convinced that the Skybreakers were the ones to remain.

They're the only ones we know to be active currently, but it's entirely possible they were refounded unless there's information I'm forgetting 

There is none as far as I know, that's why I said that we needed to find something that would make nine orders leave instead of all but the skybreakers leave.

[The Invested Beard]

1 hour ago, Wreith said:

I'm not convinced that the Skybreakers were the ones to remain.

They're the only ones we know to be active currently, but it's entirely possible they were refounded unless there's information I'm forgetting 

The evidence is fairly circumstantial at this point, but at the same time pretty compelling.

[Blacksmithki]

15 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

The evidence is fairly circumstantial at this point, but at the same time pretty compelling.

I agree, but we can't really say for absolute certain, just probably, so if we find a good theory for the cause based on another order staying then we can't just say it was the skybreakers who stayed.

[Michael Portz he/him]

On 13.10.2017 at 10:23 PM, SilverTiger said:

Hmmm... Why don't we try to figure out a reason why the Skybreakers would remain, and not the others, and work from there. Since they are Just and Confident, I would suggest something either against the law or cowardly. More likely the former. So, what was against the Radiant Orders' laws?

Well...their second Ideal

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"I will put the law before all else"

seems to be a good starting point in that regard, or?

If all the other orders had/have ideals which concern something like "human decency", then they might have been disgusted by an action taken (i.e. severing the Connection between Parshendy and the Rythmus), which left the Skybreakers unmoved due to their 2nd Ideal.

EDT: Addendum: You can of course replace "have ideals which concern something like human decency" by "have ideals which directly contradict the action taken"

 

Edited October 17, 2017 by Michael Portz