Surgebinding Mistborn? More Speculations about Hoid

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=30+magic+systems It's the 8th result.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=fabrial' 1st result.

@Moogle Lots of nice thoughts there. It makes me wonder what mechanisms determine which combinations are expressed. Is it from how compatible the Intents are?

[Moogle]

@Moogle Lots of nice thoughts there. It makes me wonder what mechanisms determine which combinations are expressed. Is it from how compatible the Intents are?

 

I would suggest it's from how incompatible their Intents are. Preservation and Ruin, who are opposites, managed to hit all the combinations (P - Allomancy, R - Hemalurgy, PR - Feruchemy), but Devotion and Dominion (quite compatible) only have one system. The fact that the Investiture/Intent doesn't mix/mixes only partially seems to me to be a good possibility for why there are multiple systems.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Moogle

[DoctorWh0m he/him]

I'm assuming then that because Honor and Cultivation seem fairly compatible, and spren are a mix of both, that Surgebinding is their shared system? Is the third magic system a balance system between one or both of them and Odium, or something else?

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

My personal theory is that Voidbinding is of Odium and Cultivation, and Fabrials are of Cultivation alone. If I'm right, then it's probably because Cultivation is perfectly compatible with both Honorable and Odious traits, while Honor and Odium are incompatible.

[DoctorWh0m he/him]

Ah, ok. That actually makes a lot more sense.

 

EDIT: Actually, doesn't that incompatibility produce balance systems? The way I see it, both Surgebinding (spren have been confirmed to be on a sliding scale of Honor to Cultivation) and Voidbinding (assuing that it is Odium's magic) are partly of Cultivation, seeing as they're sorta compatible, and that incompatibility of Honor and Odium produces the third magic system as a balance.  

Edited February 21, 2014 by DoctorWh0m

[Eri she/her]

I thought that Sel has one system, because both shards there are splintered?

[DoctorWh0m he/him]

It does, but as far as I understand, the Intent of the Shards were close enough to one another that only one magic system came out of it.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=30+magic+systems It's the 8th result.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=fabrial' 1st result.

@Moogle Lots of nice thoughts there. It makes me wonder what mechanisms determine which combinations are expressed. Is it from how compatible the Intents are?

 

Here the quotes in full since it is helpful to have them in the thread if they are being discussed, as well as direct links, since search pages are liable to change.

 

BenFoley

You have stated in your blog that Mistborn had three magic systems (Allomancy, Feruchemy and Hemurology) and also that The Way of Kings will have upwards of 20. For comparison, how many magic systems would you say the Wheel of Time series has? Two (One Power and the True Power)? How do you classify other abilities (not necessarily related to the One Power or True Power) such as Dreamwalking, viewing the Pattern, Wolfbrother-hoodness, and changing 'luck' or chance? Would you classify these abilities as a magic system in and of themselves? Has your chance to see the background material Robert Jordan left changed how you view these abilities?

Brandon Sanderson

This kind of gets sticky, as it's all up to semantics. Really, you could say that Mistborn had a different magic system for each type of Misting. But at the same time, you could argue that something like X-Men—with huge numbers of powers—all falls under the same blanked 'magic system.' And take Hemalurgy in Mistborn 3—is it a new magic system, or just a reinterpretation of Allomancy and Feruchemy?

So what do I mean by twenty or thirty magic systems in Kings? Hard to say, as I don't want to give spoilers. I have groupings of abilities that have to deal with a certain theme. Transformation, Travel, Pressure and Gravity, that sort of thing. By one way of counting, there are thirty of these—though by another way of grouping them together, there are closer to ten.

Anyway, I'd say that the Wheel of Time has a fair number of Magic systems. The biggest one would be the One Power/True Power, which is more of a blanket "Large" magic system kind of like Allomancy being a blanket for sixteen powers—only the WoT magic system is far larger. I'd count what Perrin/Egwene do in Tel'aran'rhiod as a different magic system. What Mat does as something else, the Talents one can have with the Power something else. Though I'd group all of the Foretelling/Viewing powers into one.

Sounds like a topic for a paper, actually. Any of you academics out there feel like writing one?

Let's just say that The Wheel of Time has a smaller number of larger magic systems, and I tend to use a larger number of smaller magic systems. Confusing enough?

 

(source)

 

rags

You have told us there are more than 30 magical systems on Roshar. I am assuming there are 10 surgebindings and 10 voidbindings. Do the next 10 belong to another such classification? If yes, can you give us the name for it.

Brandon Sanderson

Fabrials are part of it.

 

(source)

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

Ah, ok. That actually makes a lot more sense.

 

EDIT: Actually, doesn't that incompatibility produce balance systems? The way I see it, both Surgebinding (spren have been confirmed to be on a sliding scale of Honor to Cultivation) and Voidbinding (assuing that it is Odium's magic) are partly of Cultivation, seeing as they're sorta compatible, and that incompatibility of Honor and Odium produces the third magic system as a balance.

True. So maybe the third system would be of all three then, which actually makes a lot of sense, since it seems like fabrials are able to trap any kind of spren, not just Cultivation's.

@Weiry. Thanks. I was actually trying to do that, but I couldn't figure out how to directly link the quotes.

[Moogle]

True. So maybe the third system would be of all three then, which actually makes a lot of sense, since it seems like fabrials are able to trap any kind of spren, not just Cultivation's.

 

So we've got:

• Surgebinding - Honor + Cultivation
• Voidbinding - Odium + Cultivation
• Fabrialbinding(?) - Honor + Odium + Cultivation

?

 

This seems pretty appropriate, honestly, and works well with the Intent-meshing theory, as Cultivation doesn't get a system of her own (because she can mesh so well with almost any Intent).

[Swimmingly he/him]

Sprenbinding?

[DoctorWh0m he/him]

So we've got:

• Surgebinding - Honor + Cultivation
• Voidbinding - Odium + Cultivation
• Fabrialbinding(?) - Honor + Odium + Cultivation

?

 

This seems pretty appropriate, honestly, and works well with the Intent-meshing theory, as Cultivation doesn't get a system of her own (because she can mesh so well with almost any Intent).

Perhaps a better way to put it would be (Honor -> <- Odium) + Cultivation 

[Moogle]

Perhaps a better way to put it would be (Honor -> <- Odium) + Cultivation 

 

That's reasonable. Cultivation could act as a sort of glue or emulsifier for them. Though, Ruin + Preservation didn't need it.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Moogle

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

We starting to make a notation for Intent interactions then? Lemme try it out.

Devotion + Dominion.

Preservation -> <- Ruin.

...

You know, there really aren't cases for a shorthand system to be useful.

[DoctorWh0m he/him]

When has uselessness ever stopped anyone on this site?

[macros he/him]

 

 

I believe that this indicates that S spren were not necessarily apart of Surge-binding originally.

 

I have to disagree with this. we know from the WoR material from the dalinar chapter

 

 

 

I was surprised when these orders arrived. I did not teach my Heralds this. It was the spren—wishing to imitate what I had given men—who made it possible

 

so i believe spren have always been needed for surgebinding

[TomR]

Sprenbinding?

 

And how about the Old Magic?  I made a long post in another thread, but I've been trying to figure out how to get three systems of magic given all the magical elements we see.  We've got Heralds and Honorblades, the Surges, the Unmade who may be the Ten Fools, the Ten Deaths, the Knights Radiant who have their own Blades but also have Plate, a third type of Shardblade out there, the Old Magic, the spren, Voidbinding, and this fabrial magic which is confirmed as the third type.  A lot of these can be combined, but how they're combined is the question. I think I've finally got a better handle on my thoughts on the fabrial magic, along with an idea about Shardplate. My speculation (warning: crazy massive wait-induced rant, inconsistently supported):

 

Honor (Heralds, Knights Radiant) - Surgebinding and Shardblades. Honorblades or a bond with one of ten types of spren which hold a Splinter of Honor. Both allow access to two adjacent Surges and a Blade, though Honorblades are more powerful. Requires: inhalation of Stormlight from a gemstone. Said Stormlight is not perfectly held.

 

Honor+Cultivation (Fabrials) - We have WOB that fabrials are involved in the third magic system.  We have another WOB that fabrials can allow access to all the Surges, and we've seen Soulcasters and a Regrowth fabrial in TWOK. Assuming 10 or 30 means 3 ways of accessing the 10 Surges, I think it's as simple as those fabrials which grant you that access. Unlike Honor Surges (and Cultivation Surges?), one fabrial only gives access to one Surge. Requires: Like most fabrials, presumably a metal(?) housing, a spren, an infused gemstone, and a trained wielder. The fact that, rather than Light being absorbed by the wielder, fabrials always require Honor Stormlight and Cultivation gemstones (see below) is most of why I think this is a combination of Honor and Cultivation.

 

Cultivation (Knights Radiant, Nightwatcher, Parshendi but not parshmen, Greatshells) - Old Magic. Cultivation as the mother of all spren, Cultivation as the Nightwatcher, the Nightwatcher as Old Magic. Big assumption here, and an incomplete theory, but I believe the Old Magic revolves around the nahel/spren bond. Bonding with a spren grants a multitude of benefits, such as Greatshell growth and Parshendi forms. Among the Parshendi forms are ten which also allow access to the Surges (but Stormform, if it controls Highstorms, seems odd. It doesn't fit any two adjacent surges exactly-- unless it's the ninth Surge and Pressure, which could work. Or Old Magic may only allow access to one Surge, just at a higher level. However, I'm thinking combinations of opposite surges on the chart, Wu Xing five element style where you can link the chart both as generating and overcoming. I could see Pressure and Illumination involved in Storms since light and air pressure play such a big part in real life meteorological phenomena, and it allows another version of the 10 Surges than what the Radiants will have). Requires: Spren, being from the Cognitive Realm, require their hosts' mental abilities (Nightwatcher - Taravangian's declining intellect days, Dalinar's memories, the guy who lost feeling in his hands, the guy who saw the world upside down), their thoughts, ideas, Ideals to define themselves and to grow. Even the Parshendi rhythms would be helping to define the spren. May also require Stormlight and/or gemstone.

 

[big reach]Another effect of the spren bond is that it allows the host to grow gemhearts, with the following benefit:

 

He [szeth] had heard that the Voidbringers could hold it [stormlight] in perfectly.

 

Because they have gemhearts, the Stormlight is contained in them rather than leaked. However, in the case of Knights Radiant, Shardplate gets grown instead, with a similar benefit since it gets recharged by the leaking Light (massively reaching here, I know, but I'll go even further. We know Shardplate can heal itself, regrow missing pieces, and resize itself to be smaller or larger so it fits the wearer. I'll say that means when Dalinar sees the two KR with the glowing Shardplate, their helmets disappear not because they're summoned like Blades but because the helmets are resized/retracted).[/big reach]

 

If the Knights Radiant get a combination of Honor and Cultivation, why isn't that a third magic? I'd argue that it is a combination, but not in the sense of two systems combining to create one new system of magic. Instead, they get limited access to two systems separately, Honor-type Surgebinding and Shardblades and Cultivation-type spren bonds and their own special "form" (Shardplate). And at least one Stoneward even used a Surgebinding fabrial on top of that.

 

So. Where's Odium in all this? I actually don't think he has his own magic since he's not a native Shard and he probably doesn't want to Invest power outside Braize.  I don't even expect to see a combined magic; his name makes me think he doesn't play well with others. I think what he does is corrupt the existing magic on Roshar (does this count as a combined magic and so three more types? I'm not sure, some may say so, but I don't see it as Hemalurgy being Ati's so much as Ati being able to control the koloss, kandra, and Inquistors).

 

Honor - The Unmade. Probably the third type of Shardblade. The Heralds' corrupted Divine Attributes assuming that theory is correct.

 

Cultivation - Messing with old magic to corrupt spren. Corrupted spren combined with the Ten Essences become the Ten Deaths. Corrupted spren combined with Parshmen become Voidbinders.

 

Fabrials - Not sure if they're corrupted, but I wouldn't be surprised if Odium has a way of getting to their users.

 

I have to disagree with this. we know from the WoR material from the dalinar chapter

 

so i believe spren have always been needed for surgebinding

 

WOB that Szeth doesn't have a spren, so I don't think so. I took it another way. "Wishing to imitate what I [Honor] had given men" (Heralds Surgebinding) "the spren...made it [the Orders of the Knights Radiant] possible." The spren mimicked the Heralds and gave rise to the Radiants.

Edited March 1, 2014 by TomR

[DoctorWh0m he/him]

I'm fairly certain Odium's been confirmed to have a part in the magic systems on Lesser Roshar. Nice theories though!

[Khyrindor he/him]

TomR: (spoiler alert!)

 

 

Szeth gets his powers from an honorbade. it has been confirmed by Eshonai in her POV in WoR. My big stretch here is that he borrowed it from Darkness (Nalat?), and that is the reason he is a truthless. If thats not why, then it is because of his father.

 

Sorry guys, I don't know how to quote. PM me?

Edited February 27, 2014 by WeiryWriter
added spoiler tags

[Zionite]

I suspect Awakening an Honor blade would make it capable of controlling all the surges not just 2